Archangel
Smash Hero
I think Zard is doable...but I fear being trapped on a small stage against Zard. I need room to camp and run away from time to time. Anyways...what about the other pokemon?
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Pit General Match-Up Thread
- Thread starter BlinkIV
- Start date
BlinkIV
Avenger
He is doable. Wide stages and high ceilings benefit Pit the most against Charizard.
Archangel
Smash Hero
the thing about Charizard for me personally was adjusting to his speed. He looks slow but he's not slow.
Kiraflax and falcoty. You should know them if you know azs scene.
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BlinkIV
Avenger
I do. Falcoty is really good, haven't seen his Zard. Kiraflax though, lolno
Kiraflax's zard was consistently placing top 3 in the AZ community, and he's bad? lolokay.
BlinkIV
Avenger
I never said he was bad. Probably just people not knowing how to play against Zard.
Or maybe he's just outplaying the majority of our player base?
BlinkIV
Avenger
Or maybe a combination of both.
You're quick to discount his performance.
BlinkIV
Avenger
I'm not making a solid judgement until I see his Charizard. I'm merely pointing out anything could happen.
We have tons of videos of him on YT.
Old, but here's a video of him beating me in tournament http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZgU5S-wWHM
Old, but here's a video of him beating me in tournament http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZgU5S-wWHM
BlinkIV
Avenger
I'll check it out, but I'm interested in seeing him play more recently if you're saying he's that good.
i don't know if there's any vids of him since he moved to cali
BlinkIV
Avenger
Hopefully he'll attend a tournament soon that I can watch and see for myself.
has anyone been playing with pit's third jab without the infinite?
BlinkIV
Avenger
It's okay, I'd rather stick with jab 1 and jab 2. U-Tilt is more useful now
Ive been wanting to experiment with jab 1 but i always infinite
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Archangel
Smash Hero
I would say practice on some lvl 3 computers until you get it down. Jab-anything or Jab-Jab-anything is pretty good actually. I've started doing jab-jab-jab recently in places of where I use to use upsmash. Also, Upsmash OoS isn't bad. I like Up-B Oos more though but I suggest you guys bust it out periodically and tell me what you think.
BlinkIV
Avenger
I only use U-Smash OoS when an opponent is at kill % and stupidly tries to attack my shield directly without spacing a move. Up-B OoS connects better, which I really like, and it's useful against a good handful of characters imo.
Hey, I wanted a couple of opinions on a few MU's.
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Lucario
I've got a pretty good understanding of how to play against them, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it.
Hey, I wanted a couple of opinions on a few MU's.
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Lucario
I've got a pretty good understanding of how to play against them, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
pit beats dk by a big enough margin for me to mention it.
i used to use usmash oos a lot because it was better than up b, but it sucks now so i dont. >.>
i'd practice jab jab jab but i dont have a wii. >.>
i'd practice jab jab jab but i dont have a wii. >.>
BlinkIV
Avenger
SB, I wish I had more chances to play your DK in friendlies at LTC and the PMBR Suite. I'm not really familiar with the MU yet, but we'll definitely play more the next time you come to Texas.
Mizuki, U-Smash OoS is still good, just use it more as a situation kill option, and not something too often. I personally prefer using Up-B OoS in most cases.
Mizuki, U-Smash OoS is still good, just use it more as a situation kill option, and not something too often. I personally prefer using Up-B OoS in most cases.
Id rather usmash just not be awful amymore.
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Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2
Archangel
Smash Hero
Yeah, it just makes me frustrated when I use it in a good situation and get punished for it.... ahhh...it gets on my nerves.
BlinkIV
Avenger
I'd rather the wrong characters get buffed, and rather the PMBR to get everything together.
Archangel
Smash Hero
What? So you are saying you want the wrong characters to get buffed? I'm not sure what that implies.
BlinkIV
Avenger
That was a typo. I meant to say. I'd rather not have the wrong characters being buffed (2.6 is a perfect example).
Archangel
Smash Hero
ah I thought so. now it makes much more sense lol. And I agree.
BlinkIV
Avenger
Yeah, I'm not sure if they intend to stay down this path. But I'm slowly losing interest.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Who exactly are the right characters.
Archangel
Smash Hero
The game is too fun for me to lose interest. I think the most telling thing will be the next installment of Project M. Right now they are feeling around in the dark. I think experimenting at this point is a horrible Idea imo. "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Applies here. However the problem so far with PM since the release of 2.0 has been the lack of ability to distinguish between what is broken, good design, bad design, and noob slaying tactics. Some would say Wolf's smash attacks are broke, but they are simply designed to slay noobs. Others thought Ike was broken when he was actually nowhere near it. His design was just....incomplete. And then there are things like Sonic's changes. Sonic had some very bad designs for a melee setting that made his design dumber than spacies. Still, if you were going to fix the problem, FIX THE GODDAMN PROBLEM! Why was everything about Sonic changed? They like...nerfed everything but his Utilt...
Then there is pit...of all the things to change why was it the Usmash? His Utilt is in some ways worse than his Usmash was. Still is actually. Some moves actually can't hit him when he's doing it...which I find peculiar... Given all of pit's changes of late, I get why he lost his double glide ability when in the air. It would be silly if he still had it. What I can't understand is why he has lost his Usmash....like, I can't get past it at all no matter how I try. It makes NO sense to me. If it is to be left the way it is then his ending lag should be changed to match the MASSIVE opening he now has. I feel like it's reverted to the same problems from 2.0. Next, his fsmash will be nerfed to have the sandbag be able to avoid his Fsmash again...
Ok, my obvious Pit salt aside, Overall things are going in the right direction. The problem is the small things that aren't going in the right direction could cost the whole project as a whole. Project M(elee) is the target. Sneaking in poisoned aspects of brawl and nerfing/buffing the wrong issues could be costly. Again, the long term success of Project M for me depends on the next update. I personally will keep playing with my small circle regardless of if the game has large scale success. Again, It's still very fun and gives me much more out of my brawl disk then I ever could.
BlinkIV
Avenger
Oro: In my opinion, some characters recieved buffs that weren't needed, and some characters recieved nerfs which weren't entirely needed. The only character buff I truly agree with is Link. The changes were needed for him, and it's giving him a chance to finally be viable in tournament, and have the ability to place well now. It's a great feeling coming from an ex-Link main. However, some characters I just don't understand.
Examples being:
Mario - Why is he like this? I understand giving him better stats that are comparable to Dr. Mario, but he's just a character now that is guaranteed top 8, and you don't have to put much work into being super good with him.
Donkey Kong - I understand how he was in Melee, but some of the stuff he has is just silly. Rather, a lot of characters have silly aspects about them.
Ivysaur - In my opinion, I think she was given too much in this update. That's all I'll say.
Meta Knight - I know they want to make him balanced but, they took too much away from his style. His overall damage output is pretty low, but he's got high juggle skills, and one of the best tech chases in the game.
Wario - He always gave a weird vibe, I know he's really good, but it's just awkward.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, why should certain characters have guaranteed kill setups, or kill throws? Why should some characters have really good CC options, while some others don't? It's not really fun playing (and sometimes losing) to players who solely rely on CC'ing everything, to lead into combos, and possibly stocks. There have been matches when I've played against Oracle, and I would lose a full stock just because of CC > D-Smash, and there have been other players as well in which this has happened as well.
I do agree with you, Archangel. I'm just not feeling Pit as much lately, it's really boring after a while. To just play against people, and lose to silly and fraudulent things, while I don't have many to abuse. I do think Pit is a balanced character, and I like the way he was designed, but at the same time, don't nerf what isn't needed to be nerfed. That's been my motto for the game since 2.0.
Examples being:
Mario - Why is he like this? I understand giving him better stats that are comparable to Dr. Mario, but he's just a character now that is guaranteed top 8, and you don't have to put much work into being super good with him.
Donkey Kong - I understand how he was in Melee, but some of the stuff he has is just silly. Rather, a lot of characters have silly aspects about them.
Ivysaur - In my opinion, I think she was given too much in this update. That's all I'll say.
Meta Knight - I know they want to make him balanced but, they took too much away from his style. His overall damage output is pretty low, but he's got high juggle skills, and one of the best tech chases in the game.
Wario - He always gave a weird vibe, I know he's really good, but it's just awkward.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, why should certain characters have guaranteed kill setups, or kill throws? Why should some characters have really good CC options, while some others don't? It's not really fun playing (and sometimes losing) to players who solely rely on CC'ing everything, to lead into combos, and possibly stocks. There have been matches when I've played against Oracle, and I would lose a full stock just because of CC > D-Smash, and there have been other players as well in which this has happened as well.
I do agree with you, Archangel. I'm just not feeling Pit as much lately, it's really boring after a while. To just play against people, and lose to silly and fraudulent things, while I don't have many to abuse. I do think Pit is a balanced character, and I like the way he was designed, but at the same time, don't nerf what isn't needed to be nerfed. That's been my motto for the game since 2.0.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Link is one of the most popular characters and he's like....always sucked...I believe even in 64.
I agree, but technical and complex characters like fox and falco are being embodied in characters like Wolf and lucas. Mario doesn't require the same kind of effort to be good but the same has been said about Puff and Sheik. I think time will tell in this case.
I think all aspects of DK being better on stage is a great thing but...I still feel he is counterpicked by spikes or even meteor attacks. His inability to travel upwards is still going to be an issue with DK in the long run. So his buffs don't concern me much.
Ivy is working to replay Puff in some aspects. Not with the jumps but she can be just as floaty and just as anti-engaging as Puff. The direction she's taking as a whole seems somewhat bad to me.
I want to see more out of metaknight before I make my judgements on him. However, from what I've seen so far he's a combination of good and bad ideas. Anti brawl metaknight does satisfy the side of me that hated him. However, I feel like his in ability to fly with his up-B is pretty dumb. His tornado being nerfed to the point where it has less suction then mario's down-b is silly. his dash attack is godly. his Up-A into up-B is still a viable kill combo. All in All he's around as good as ROB I think. Mid-Tier but his style provides alot of excitement. I'm interested in seeing how he's improved in the next update.
There is no way to make wario wrong. Some of his moves seem to combo for no reason though. Like, he has high priority moves with low knockback that make it so he can continue some combos even if you drop the controller and he does one of them at random. Still, he's funny as **** so I don't mind if he became SSSS-tier.
Almost everyone has Melee samus crouch canceling or better and it's obnoxious. Crouch canceling feels way over done in Project M. That combined with Brawl shield and the lack of melee tech momentum and speed makes some aspects of this game elementary. It dumbs down and over simplifies some aspects of this game. I'm surprised at how some people don't seem to notice it though.
I still like playing pit. I just feel like some of his MU's have been made slightly more difficult. I still think he's a top level character, the problem is...the change only makes MU's that he had difficulty in Harder to play. I still take a dump on the characters that I use to take a dump on prior to this update but other characters (fox for example) are that much more difficult to fend off now.
Luckily there are characters that I'm starting to find as fun alternatives. Wolf, Lucas, Ike, DDD, Wario, Luigi...etc. I'm really branching out.
When i really think about it, pit kinda sucks. Hes mid tier at best in 2.6
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Archangel
Smash Hero
I wouldn't go THAT far.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I'm sorry but you made it sound like 2.6 directly buffed/nerfed characters where it wasn't required. I will try to address your concerns, but you kind of confused me in your previous posts.
You have to remember that we are just a small group of people putting a lot of free time and work into PM, so not everything will be perfect, found, or even addressed. We use public releases not only to let you guys enjoy the experience of playing PM and sample our hard work, but also for data on what might be too strong or too weak.
So if you have such a problem with death combos, should we remove all instances of Fox uthrow-uair or Falcon D/Uthrow to knee? Those kill earlier than DK cargo fair believe it or not. What is the difference between death comboing with a throw, or off of hits in neutral? Every character has varied abilities to throw combo, have kill throws, or just general kill setups. These are all properties that make characters inherently good or not so good among several other factors. If characters all had balanced traits of combo ability, death throws, cc, recovery, or any other statistic you can think up, wouldn't that be a boring game? All of the unique interactions among an entire semi-balanced cast in a diverse character select is what makes this game great. So what if not every character can uthrow uair to kill Jiggs or GnW at 60% like Fox, or upsmash everyone and kill at 100 like Fox, or have 1 frame combo, pressure, edgeguard, and cancellable moves like Fox... you get where I'm going with this? It's just in my opinion that all of the character differences make this game exciting, even if characters have really polarized properties Like Bowser's Armor, Spacies Pressure/neutral game dominance etc. Sorry if that really doesn't help at all... We really do try to make this game as balanced as possible from all points of view.
I honestly can't tell if you think MK is too good or not good enough, just that what you believe MK is, isn't what he should be? He is a very solid character, and does not have much in the way of "fraudulence" as you say it.
Crouch cancelling, much like death combo throws, is a property that not every character shares, and not even to the same degree. Every character in PM fills some sort of niche or archetype, or that's at least what we go for. Ivy and Sonic were definitely the biggest changes to 2.6, but I implore you to soul search when playing as and against those characters. Is Sonic really as bad as people make it seem? Probably not, he just actually has to play Smash Bros now. Is Ivy as top tier omgwtfbbq as people make it seem? Probably not, but she is damn good.
So I'm guessing that the root of your issues come down to what has been done to Pit? Sorry if I am assuming this, but this is the Pit boards, and this sounds like frustration with the 2.6 patch specifically?
BlinkIV
Avenger
This was a good post to read, Oro. What I'm saying is, most times I feel like some characters put in a little more effort when the opposing enemy would have less effort (What character they're playing ofc). I agree though, I do think the game has been exciting to play, and there's always an interesting aspect for every character, and I know you guys want to make everyone viable. But I just haven't felt the same excitement from 2.6 compared to 2.0-2.5, you get what I mean?
For Meta Knight: I think he's good for what he is right now. Is he up there? Nah, I don't think so. Can he prove a challenge to most characters? Definitely. But without having "fraudulence" at his disposal, it's kind of a missing "element".
Crouch Cancelling, I hate it. I don't want to type a story about how much I hate it, or how many times I've lost because of it. But I'm just going to "man up", and deal with it, and try not to get exposed by it. That's all I'll say.
The root of my issues aren't coming from Pit being nerfed, I agree with what you guys had in mind for Pit's overall balance. I'm not johning about it, it's more of. I'm slightly upset because of how the overall balance of the game is starting to open up for 2.6. Yes, there is character variety, which is amazing to see in my eyes. Yes, you guys are open to suggestions, and want to make things fair. At the same time, with the way that characters are "balanced", the tools they have doesn't really make it feel that way, you get what I mean? It just provides an odd vibe for me to play.
A lot of other characters were buffed, and pit lost his only reliable tool vs most of his bad match ups, and the game mechanic that wrecks most of Pit's moveset - Crouch Cancel.
Pit has no reliable way to pressure shields, and his punish game is extremely weak until 50%+, but unlike characters like Shiek, he doesn't have reliable ways of building percent.
His projectile on stage is awful at zoning and building damage. It's slow to start up, slow to end, and he moves in a predictable arc.
Examining the traits of Pit, he is comparable to SSBM Roy with multi jumps and a mediocre projectile.
Pit has no reliable way to pressure shields, and his punish game is extremely weak until 50%+, but unlike characters like Shiek, he doesn't have reliable ways of building percent.
His projectile on stage is awful at zoning and building damage. It's slow to start up, slow to end, and he moves in a predictable arc.
Examining the traits of Pit, he is comparable to SSBM Roy with multi jumps and a mediocre projectile.
Archangel
Smash Hero
wow...I thought I was salty. Seriously though, Pit's not that bad. he's only dropped a few spots overall. His Worst MU's may feel like complete BS but I still. Comparing him to Roy is just...It's too far of a stretch. I thought Pit was inching his way to top 5 in 2.5 Now he's fallen back a few spacies do to..buffs/nerfs but other characters were also nerfed to ****. So he's not like...bottom 5. I wouldn't even say he's bottom 10. He isn't AWFUL. That is just too much salt. Try some new things, Wait before you start saying he's Roy...Roy? I can't even believe you said that...