Pit General Match-Up Thread

[Nausicaa]

Again?
I didn't know there was like.. any leaning towards an uproar about discontent with him at all. :O

Maybe that's why it's GG cmart?
Too good, don't even notice the 'bad.'

 

[Vixen]

Me/Saixven/Archangel all quit Pit in 2.6b. That's 3/4 of the good active pit players. SURE SOUNDS LIKE DISCONTENT.

I have a hard time counting Gallo because he rarely uses Pit.

 

[Archangel]

Me/Saixven/Archangel all quit Pit in 2.6b. That's 3/4 of the good active pit players. SURE SOUNDS LIKE DISCONTENT.

I have a hard time counting Gallo because he rarely uses Pit.

pretty much this. I stopped using Pit and started using Marth/Wolf/Fox/Bowser/Mario...etc and realized none of them would fill the pit void and then i got randomly inspired to play melee again so I dipped out to play melee again....pretty sure Sai/Mizu did pretty much the same so this pit section became sorta dead.

whenever pit is good the pit section becomes active. I'm starting to notice this pattern. :D


to say pit has always been a beast is open for debate but to say he has not had much changes suggest you know little about him.

 

[Nausicaa]

I never really follow the PM mainstream community aside from peaking into it here and there.
Of the 3 mentioned, I've only seen you play (Mizuki), I think you were commentating at one point too, about a Peach vs Lucas set and you were confused about the Stage choices.
Side-Note, but relevant. I know you don't use the 2 characters and may not know anything about them even, but when something was so observably in front of you in terms of game-flow and how the players and characters were interacting on screen, and you couldn't figure that out/were mentioning how confused you were about it, I'm not sure I want to trust your insight on Pit, even when you play the character 'good' and know him better. LOL
I'm not saying what you're saying isn't something I'll take into consideration, I'm just mentioning that it was so easy to pick-up on even if never seeing the match-up before, and that shouldn't be hard to figure out, so I have more of an urge to share insight to help rather than to collect insight when discussing here, even in relation to Pit (ATM at least, though again, I'm not saying I don't have much to learn).

Just so you know where I'm coming from when we discuss things about Pit here.

Otherwise, I really don't consider almost anyone (if anyone) 'good' in the PM community at the moment. It's subjective, but when the people considered the 'best Wolf's' have better Fox's, and barely express any dynamics in their play regarding the progressing meta-game beyond more technical fluency and systematic decision making, I highly doubt 'good' is defining, let alone people I consider 'random tournament goers that play given PM characters more often than other characters/players at high-populace PM hubs'
lol
No offense from that, but of what I've seen, there's no way I'd ever put Armada's Pit and Peach in anything more than the same breath, let alone any more than maybe a couple other sparks/sequences of play from a select few players using Pit when picking up the character at a some point. Hope that makes sense.



With that, more on-topic here...
I highly doubt if you took Pit 3.0, and took away 2 frames on D-Tilt, and made his N-Air less of a standard drill in place of a more hard-hix-box wheel, etc, that he would go from 'high-tier' to 'mid-at-best' (what is the difference anyway? the given list has 11th, top 30%, so he's like... 8th now or something in 3.0 due to the shift, or what? 11th but more characters so top 27%? lol)

Even nerfing all the 3.0 characters to their 2.6b versions, changing stage ceilings and shield-KB, I have NO IDEA how one could think Pit is 'good' now and 'bad' then, as if these things alter the foundation of what Pit does to such an extent that he functions dramatically better. Sure, D-Tilt is good, but it's still the same functioning D-Tilt, just like Fox lasers still do what they do. When it's such a small gap relative to literally everything else in the game, let alone specifics like a Pit 3.0 vs Pit 2.6b match-up or something itself, to think that it's enough to flood the player-base of the character or crush it to oblivion is absurd.
If so, then wow, but so far the last posts each of you made (Arch and Mizu) are just logical fallacies and at best, the events taken place are coincidences or group wavering due to personal issues.
haha no offense again, just pointing it out.

Edit: For other topic purposes, I'm still under the impression more ground-based DD game out of Pit is the gravitational direction, with fading low-hit Aerials if using them at all, and Side-B taking primary application after already-established pressure almost exclusively.
Wow big words for such a simple explanation...

 

[Vixen]

I never really follow the PM mainstream community aside from peaking into it here and there.
Of the 3 mentioned, I've only seen you play (Mizuki), I think you were commentating at one point too, about a Peach vs Lucas set and you were confused about the Stage choices.
Side-Note, but relevant. I know you don't use the 2 characters and may not know anything about them even, but when something was so observably in front of you in terms of game-flow and how the players and characters were interacting on screen, and you couldn't figure that out/were mentioning how confused you were about it, I'm not sure I want to trust your insight on Pit, even when you play the character 'good' and know him better. LOL
I'm not saying what you're saying isn't something I'll take into consideration, I'm just mentioning that it was so easy to pick-up on even if never seeing the match-up before, and that shouldn't be hard to figure out, so I have more of an urge to share insight to help rather than to collect insight when discussing here, even in relation to Pit (ATM at least, though again, I'm not saying I don't have much to learn).

Just so you know where I'm coming from when we discuss things about Pit here.

Otherwise, I really don't consider almost anyone (if anyone) 'good' in the PM community at the moment. It's subjective, but when the people considered the 'best Wolf's' have better Fox's, and barely express any dynamics in their play regarding the progressing meta-game beyond more technical fluency and systematic decision making, I highly doubt 'good' is defining, let alone people I consider 'random tournament goers that play given PM characters more often than other characters/players at high-populace PM hubs'
lol
No offense from that, but of what I've seen, there's no way I'd ever put Armada's Pit and Peach in anything more than the same breath, let alone any more than maybe a couple other sparks/sequences of play from a select few players using Pit when picking up the character at a some point. Hope that makes sense.



With that, more on-topic here...
I highly doubt if you took Pit 3.0, and took away 2 frames on D-Tilt, and made his N-Air less of a standard drill in place of a more hard-hix-box wheel, etc, that he would go from 'high-tier' to 'mid-at-best' (what is the difference anyway? the given list has 11th, top 30%, so he's like... 8th now or something in 3.0 due to the shift, or what? 11th but more characters so top 27%? lol)

Even nerfing all the 3.0 characters to their 2.6b versions, changing stage ceilings and shield-KB, I have NO IDEA how one could think Pit is 'good' now and 'bad' then, as if these things alter the foundation of what Pit does to such an extent that he functions dramatically better. Sure, D-Tilt is good, but it's still the same functioning D-Tilt, just like Fox lasers still do what they do. When it's such a small gap relative to literally everything else in the game, let alone specifics like a Pit 3.0 vs Pit 2.6b match-up or something itself, to think that it's enough to flood the player-base of the character or crush it to oblivion is absurd.
If so, then wow, but so far the last posts each of you made (Arch and Mizu) are just logical fallacies and at best, the events taken place are coincidences or group wavering due to personal issues.
haha no offense again, just pointing it out.

Edit: For other topic purposes, I'm still under the impression more ground-based DD game out of Pit is the gravitational direction, with fading low-hit Aerials if using them at all, and Side-B taking primary application after already-established pressure almost exclusively.
Wow big words for such a simple explanation...

I was confused because BASED ON WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN FRONT OF ME NEON WAS CHOSING STAGES THAT STRICTLY BENEFITTED PEACH WHILE SILLY KYLE WAS CHOSING STAGES THAT MAKE MORE SENSE FOR LUCAS. If you watched the set in its entirety, you would have seen this, and I commented extensively on this game 4 and 5. When I spoke to Neon about his stage choices he confirmed that he had no idea what he was doing. We also talked about his lack of use of icicle. It's not that I was confused in the sense of "I HAVE NO IDEA WHATS GOING ON LOL", more of "Why are these players making bad decisions?" type of confusion.

Pit's 3.0 changes are huge. He's given an answer to crouch cancelling, an answer to most shields in the game, a longer grab range which significantly increases his already powerful grounded game, and his existing grounded frame traps became even more powerful in the form of IASA. A character that was already 11th (Around Ice Climbers/Doc level in Melee comparatively) with the added bonuses of his 3.0 changes EASILY make him high tier.

Please point out our logical fallacies. I'm happy to dismantle your argument.

Also yes, Pit SHOULD be gravitating to a ground-based game. I like to compare Pit to Marth at a high level, because fundamentally they should play very similarly.

 

[Nausicaa]

Some semantics first. This might clear some stuff up as it's all over the place (to me it seems anyway)
1) If 11th (top 30%) is barely-mid-tier, than where do you suspect him now #-wise? Proportionally (especially with your reference to comparing the Melee tiers) isn't making any sense, unless bottom of mid is 10th and top 5 is high or something. haha
2) The kind of discussion about how to make Pit work is actually of value, hence I made the edit. I like that stuff, and noticed the topic was going off-base, so if you want to go that direction instead of this that's probably best.

On that topic!
By gravitating strictly to that, I was specifically referring to things like using Shield as an approach, empty jump approaches, and even Side-B cancelled to land immeditately, as baits after establishing pressure from earlier sequences. That's just some examples of things he can apply that Marth can't, but yeah, the Marth generic positioning and zones-to-be-in, and how to manage basic mobility, is something everyone caught pretty quickly.
False-pressure in close-quarters to land conversions is something relatively not in Marth's book, and it's almost Samus-like really. That's the kind of neutral Pit really needs to flourish (at least, it's an aspect that appears to when it shows up, and theoretically should but isn't prioritized significantly since the focus has been elsewhere in the general-populations development with him) , and it's still not really focused on. There's almost 'too much' room for opponents, even though he likes it too. I think the arrow-distance is still lingering in a lot of people's play, but it's closing in on the optimal neutral-game with time.

Otherwise, regarding the semantics of off-topic stuff. You might want to talk to Silly Kyle then, as he picked ideal Stages to deal with Lucas, and Neon's Stages were decent enough, not exactly benefiting Peach, that's for sure. haha
Peach needs a closed space against him, otherwise she'll play the chasing game too much, and Lucas can basically out-maneuver and out-range her for free with any room. It's like trying to fight Fox on Bridge of Eldin if she can't corner those characters. The Stages were pretty proper, and Neon's confusion if anything implies you should both discuss it with someone who knows what they're doing with Stages (I suggest SK if possible) lol
It's pretty observable in the matches too, given how the games played out. Small Stages, Peach cornered and closed in, overwhelming him and process-stock-eliminating as she should attempt. XD

The fallacies were already pointed out, and if semantic#1 isn't cleared, you could say that is too.

He's for sure better, and can do his Pit things with a little more flexibility, but it's still Pit things. It's not like everyone else in the game didn't get better either.
I'm not implying the Pit changes were tiny and insignificant, so even if your exaggerations are due to hype and novelty (likely combo since it's so universal), it's not a big deal.
Bluntly stating that it's what makes/breaks him in the game is just being ignorant to how everything works in application from functional-basis to meta-game, regardless of how you put it. So watch how you state that stuff, it's pretty silly.

Just figured this last thing was worth pointing out. It's about how examples can show how other things come into play in other areas.
The Lucas vs Peach stage thing makes a good example of something, in how you seem to get a thing set in your mind and can't sway from it, despite being 'right in front of you' or even just being uncertainly true (<important factor is how everything is worth questioning and not settling for)

I know you could take this offensively or something, or might simply think you know the situation clearly, but I suggest using this as an example of a hint that there's likely (again, I'm only pointing this out because it's distinctly standing out in multiple areas very directly expressed through your posts) a habit you may have that tends to block you from potentially expanding and picking up on things, like the next step on your improvement in an area.

Like thinking you understand the dynamics of Stages between characters and players in a Lucas/Peach match-up, to thinking you understand the implications of a change in N-Air hit-boxes to the deep dynamics of its effects overall in an end-meta without really giving merit the applications of it's other variation. This is something everyone (you too) knows, but friendly reminders are always good and that's all this is, and I figured it was worth mentioning since it's again, observably present in every aspect of this conversation regarding the things you're stating as facts/that you know to be true, when there's really nothing distinctly or even closely exemplifying the truths, and even significant evidence against the statements.
Ever think there's something you might 'know' that might not be correct? < This is a question everyone could asks themselves more, me too of course.

Just something very noticeable if you know where to look, and it's always worth applying what you see to be a better person. Everything else is great and you're doing good so don't take that offensively. Don't feel bad/that garbage if you're learning things, but BEFORE THAT, don't be so adamant about something as simple as Stage-Selection/Move-Changes when you could possibly learn something from someone who specializes in it.
Thanks for elaborations and what-not and replies in good context/understanding too.

Edit: Spellingz

 

[Vixen]

Some semantics first. This might clear some stuff up as it's all over the place (to me it seems anyway)
1) If 11th (top 30%) is barely-mid-tier, than where do you suspect him now #-wise? Proportionally (especially with your reference to comparing the Melee tiers) isn't making any sense, unless bottom of mid is 10th and top 5 is high or something. haha
2) The kind of discussion about how to make Pit work is actually of value, hence I made the edit. I like that stuff, and noticed the topic was going off-base, so if you want to go that direction instead of this that's probably best.

The comparison that I'm trying to make is the cutoff between Ice Climbers and Doctor Mario. There is a significant drop in character ability between those two tiers of characters. While IC/Doc are within the top 30% of the cast, they're significantly worse than the top tier characters. This is my view on 2.6b pit. While he IS better than most of the cast, he's still notably worse than the characters above him. As of 3.0, I feel he's around the top 25% or so. while objectively a small boost, it's still an important boost. most notably, his BAD match ups got better.

On that topic!
By gravitating strictly to that, I was specifically referring to things like using Shield as an approach, empty jump approaches, and even Side-B cancelled to land immeditately, as baits after establishing pressure from earlier sequences. That's just some examples of things he can apply that Marth can't, but yeah, the Marth generic positioning and zones-to-be-in, and how to manage basic mobility, is something everyone caught pretty quickly.
False-pressure in close-quarters to land conversions is something relatively not in Marth's book, and it's almost Samus-like really. That's the kind of neutral Pit really needs to flourish (at least, it's an aspect that appears to when it shows up, and theoretically should but isn't prioritized significantly since the focus has been elsewhere in the general-populations development with him) , and it's still not really focused on. There's almost 'too much' room for opponents, even though he likes it too. I think the arrow-distance is still lingering in a lot of people's play, but it's closing in on the optimal neutral-game with time.

Otherwise, regarding the semantics of off-topic stuff. You might want to talk to Silly Kyle then, as he picked ideal Stages to deal with Lucas, and Neon's Stages were decent enough, not exactly benefiting Peach, that's for sure. haha
Peach needs a closed space against him, otherwise she'll play the chasing game too much, and Lucas can basically out-maneuver and out-range her for free with any room. It's like trying to fight Fox on Bridge of Eldin if she can't corner those characters. The Stages were pretty proper, and Neon's confusion if anything implies you should both discuss it with someone who knows what they're doing with Stages (I suggest SK if possible) lol
It's pretty observable in the matches too, given how the games played out. Small Stages, Peach cornered and closed in, overwhelming him and process-stock-eliminating as she should attempt. XD

Peach's first pick, Battlefield was a neutral pick. Peach has slightly more room to work with, but Lucas has platforms, and his KO moves are unaffected. Peach won by adjusting his play to play more passively and stuff Lucas's approaches.
Neon's pick, Final Destination, is a strict Peach advantageous match up. Lucas no longer has platforms to avoid turnips, Peach has more room to work with. While Peach later picked Yoshi's, Neon didn't make the adjustment necessary to the smaller stage.

The fallacies were already pointed out, and if semantic#1 isn't cleared, you could say that is too.

Already answered this. >W>

He's for sure better, and can do his Pit things with a little more flexibility, but it's still Pit things. It's not like everyone else in the game didn't get better either.
I'm not implying the Pit changes were tiny and insignificant, so even if your exaggerations are due to hype and novelty (likely combo since it's so universal), it's not a big deal.
Bluntly stating that it's what makes/breaks him in the game is just being ignorant to how everything works in application from functional-basis to meta-game, regardless of how you put it. So watch how you state that stuff, it's pretty silly.

It IS a big deal, SPECIFICALLY because his bad match ups are suddenly up for question. The tools he was given were the exact tools necessary to deal with Fox, Wolf, Falco, Captain Falcon, Peach, and Sheik. An answer to low %, a longer grab, and buffs to his best grounded normal/launcher, and best vertical kill.

Just figured this last thing was worth pointing out. It's about how examples can show how other things come into play in other areas.
The Lucas vs Peach stage thing makes a good example of something, in how you seem to get a thing set in your mind and can't sway from it, despite being 'right in front of you' or even just being uncertainly true (<important factor is how everything is worth questioning and not settling for)

You're making an assumption of my character as a person. Why I am admittedly a stubborn player, I'm also more than open to being wrong, and learning.

I know you could take this offensively or something, or might simply think you know the situation clearly, but I suggest using this as an example of a hint that there's likely (again, I'm only pointing this out because it's distinctly standing out in multiple areas very directly expressed through your posts) a habit you may have that tends to block you from potentially expanding and picking up on things, like the next step on your improvement in an area.

Not offended. Stop being hugbox. This is the internet, and we'll likely never meet face-to-face. :V

Like thinking you understand the dynamics of Stages between characters and players in a Lucas/Peach match-up, to thinking you understand the implications of a change in N-Air hit-boxes to the deep dynamics of its effects overall in an end-meta without really giving merit the applications of it's other variation. This is something everyone (you too) knows, but friendly reminders are always good and that's all this is, and I figured it was worth mentioning since it's again, observably present in every aspect of this conversation regarding the things you're stating as facts/that you know to be true, when there's really nothing distinctly or even closely exemplifying the truths, and even significant evidence against the statements.
Ever think there's something you might 'know' that might not be correct? < This is a question everyone could asks themselves more, me too of course.

Just something very noticeable if you know where to look, and it's always worth applying what you see to be a better person. Everything else is great and you're doing good so don't take that offensively. Don't feel bad/that garbage if you're learning things, but BEFORE THAT, don't be so adamant about something as simple as Stage-Selection/Move-Changes when you could possibly learn something from someone who specializes in it.
Thanks for elaborations and what-not and replies in good context/understanding too.

Elaborate on this. This statement makes no sense to me. Are you saying I DON'T understand the things I'm talking about despite my 12 years of experience playing competitively? Or are you saying I DO understand what I'm talking about. :|

 

[Nausicaa]

Cool < about everything I won't comment on.
What's the Hbox thing? I like that guy, mimicking his forum-habits would be funny to get into. XD
I was interested in how the 'List' you made looks very much like a List specific to Pit. How his 'bad' match-ups are the 'specific' characters mentioned that the changes help against, and how they're the only characters 'above' him there. + mid-at-best sure makes low (or mid-low) HUGE haha.
Though the specifically-bad match-ups seems to be where a lot of the cast got tweaks, aside from the all-encompassing changes to Sonic/Lucario/Pika/etc. A Pit-specific Tier-List is actually much more valuable in a Pit-discussion after all anyway!!!

Maybe Kyle is silly when it comes to stages (or doesn't know what he's doing Neon-style), and I tend to pick Stages that I'm just comfortable with despite challenging for myself, and you're the only one who knows what's going on here, that's of course possible. To-date, my most initial analysis of theories and application around things has been most accurate, but meh, there's a first for everything. Maybe all stages are even and it's all subjective or some craziness even. Good is complex.
Maybe the less all round utility hard-hit-box nature out of things like catching people and converting off semi-wild, not accurately spaced hits with N-Air, don't match-up to the precision-based functional niche that a limiting but certainty-based well-timed drill effect would have, it's possible it's a big buff as you mentioned and I'm just bias to the other version due to the way I could make use of it. No big deal.
The elaboration of that last statement is in relation to this. It's not that you do or don't know what you know, it's that your thoughts on the Peach vs Lucas stages being a certain way, and the changes to N-Air being a significant improvement to his game, are set-in-stone, and despite anything that might imply otherwise, it's as if it's not even a consideration.
- I'm still under the impression of the opposite of those 2 examples (and those are the only 2 I've brought up questionably from the beginning as being inaccurate, really), and would be very surprised if it was otherwise, as even when considering the variables, the application of them is proving (to me personally, and what I can see observably from others) that I'm accurate on this. So won't carry this further if you're set on what you're believing, but that concrete-place you've put your beliefs in is actually something I consider of value/working on. Everything is subject to change, especially perspective, so I just like it when things are less concrete-statements unwavering, and more discussing the benefits of all things and everyone can take it how they themselves see it. Especially from one of the more active posters regarding the content.

Other things regarding Tiers are funny, and I'm just considering that stuff completely subjective given how different everyone sees the character-differences in the game, etc, but that doesn't really matter.

It's not as much an assumption of character as it is an observable quality of what you've expressing repeatedly in your posts, and partially in the commentary. The character of your posts is basically encompassing it, so it could be your character if you're like that generally, you could say. haha
The difference is between being open, and actively opening. Learning something if it clicks, and accepting the new 'learning' as true = open to learning. Learning something that could be true, and seeing if it clicks before accepting = openly learning. That make more sense?
Mind-stuff is all that really matters, in the end, anyway.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I think pit does well against a lot of heavy weights. He can grab combo them insanely hard, and he has a slightly better grab range than before. I think he has trouble against characters who out mobilize him in the air, such as jiggs, kirby, and particularly meta.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

All this theory-crafting is great and all, but I'm pretty sure Pit is, as was said above, at the top of mid-tier. He's VERY solid, but he can't afford to be just solid when you have characters like Mario and the spacies who are just DAZZLING at what they do. But then again, I like Dedede, so what do I know?

 

[RaynEX]

Mizuki, when you say Pit has an answer to low %, what exactly are you referencing? Also regarding low fair on shields to dtilt / utilt: are either advantageous on block or safe from shield grabs?\

You can add me to the list of Pit players. Though honestly I don't think my inclusion matters until I win a tournament, which I intend to do next week!

 

[Vixen]

Mizuki, when you say Pit has an answer to low %, what exactly are you referencing? Also regarding low fair on shields to dtilt / utilt: are either advantageous on block or safe from shield grabs?\

You can add me to the list of Pit players. Though honestly I don't think my inclusion matters until I win a tournament, which I intend to do next week!

At 0% to 40% Pit had no real answers to crouch cancel. Now, nair functions the way Fox's drill does giving him a good way to build % at 0-40 through nair > Grab.

Low Fair > land is +1 on shield. With all grabs being 7 frames or more, jab is +2, Dtilt/utilt are +1. The only things that really beat this are frame 5 moves like Samus's Screw Attack, Bowser's Fortress, Zelda's Faeore's wind, etc. Spot dodge and roll could theoretically beat this, but I think Pit's in a better position when this happens.

 

[RaynEX]

Gotcha. If you throw out jab, dtilt or utilt after a low fair they are all faster than shield grab (frame wise) and will thus win. If they were to theoretically block the utilt or dtilt, am I safe on block? I'm pretty sure Pit gets shield grabbed if you autopilot fair -> move and they just sit in block it all. I'm by myself so I can't test this (wish PM had a record function).

 

[Vixen]

Gotcha. If you throw out jab, dtilt or utilt after a low fair they are all faster than shield grab (frame wise) and will thus win. If they were to theoretically block the utilt or dtilt, am I safe on block? I'm pretty sure Pit gets shield grabbed if you autopilot fair -> move and they just sit in block it all. I'm by myself so I can't test this (wish PM had a record function).

Dtilt: Hits frame 6, does 12 damage, IASA on frame 27/28. If spaced at the tip, most of the cast's shield grab will actually just miss you entirely. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvn0aoQEfjw#t=0m25s I dtilt Charizard's shield. It sends him far enough away that shield grab just misses entirely. This was 2.6b, so there weren't any IASA frames on dtilt the way they are in 3.0. This is even safer now.

Utilt: Hits frames 6, dealing 6 damage, and frame 13, dealing 7 damage. IASA frames starting at frame 26. Because of the lack of range, this is unsafe on shield if they wait out both hits.

I actually talked about this in another thread but if they have the presence of mind to spot dodge while holding down and mashing Z they could theoretically option select out of Pit's pressure regardless of what he tries to do.

Another thing you can do is Low Fair > grab, or Low fair > dash dance. You're +1 vs their attempted grabs, and this beats out any attempt at just waiting for the jab/dtilt/utilt. This has become my preferred way to pressure shields as fox and falco in melee too, since so many people have become accustomed to traditional Fox/Falco shield pressure.

 

[RaynEX]

I was just talking to a friend about Pit being able to low fair > grab shields like Peach; using a mix-up that operates solely on fear of shield grabs being interrupted. Low fair dash dance sounds fantastic too. If you dash away you can punish shield grabs or aerials oos with actual Pit moves and not just grab lol. Thanks for clearing that up Mizuki.

 

[Vixen]

One other thing to note. An extremely deep dair is +2 on shield. Doing this from behind them give you some seriously strong positional advantage. Note that dair hits frame 9 and starts behind him. I've been testing spending m ost of the match with my back turned to abuse his strong bair, and the starting hitbox of Dair.

 

[RaynEX]

I'll keep that in mind. On the topic of dair, any tips on landing the spike hitbox? I'm having issues getting it consistently and I'm finding it even harder in 3.0

 

[Vixen]

most of the time i forget it even exists. I use dair so very sparingly since I don't jump a whole lot, and under most circumstances Dair is kinda unsafe.

I usually get dthrow > dairspike stuff if I do go for it. The hitbox activates around frame 13-16, or around the time it starts to hit in front of him. behind/below is all standard launcher hitbox.

 

[Nausicaa]

Basically the extra 'frame-stuff' just allows me to F-Air > DD with more 'advantage' since that's all I like doing anyway. lol
D-Throw > D-Air is probably my go-to starter if I can Grab early in stocks, there have been times where I've been able to D-Air > Side-B into Up-B for kills off the top, but it's pretty exclusively an early combo stringer in personal application. :/

 

[Vixen]

Basically the extra 'frame-stuff' just allows me to F-Air > DD with more 'advantage' since that's all I like doing anyway. lol
D-Throw > D-Air is probably my go-to starter if I can Grab early in stocks, there have been times where I've been able to D-Air > Side-B into Up-B for kills off the top, but it's pretty exclusively an early combo stringer in personal application. :/

dthrow > fair hits more characters at lower % with better followups.

dthrow > dair only works on a small portion with bad DI. Characters like lucas, ness, mk, etc where this works on, its actually better to regrab than to dair because at the trajectory dthrow sends them for dair to work, you actually can just chain throw them 2-3 times, then lead in to a better aerial than dair.

For floatier characters, dthrow > uair works.

 

[BlinkIV]

So MU's for Pit. After 3.0 changes, I don't really notice any MU that Pit just gets **** on. Unless I may just be that good with Pit.

 

[Ace78839]

What are everyone's thoughts on Pit vs Luigi? Pit vs Link?

 

[Sharkz]

Would anyone have any objections to having separate character matchup threads, or at the very least a weekly (or however long) discussion on specific character matchups in this thread? I feel like mu's are my biggest weakness right now. I'm thinking of making a personal notebook for matchups that include what I learn when playing certain mu's and what to remember before I start a match, and this would be a great place for me to start.

 

[BlinkIV]

Ace: Pit vs Luigi isn't that bad. Don't rely on aerial combos too much, as Luigi can break out easy. Always try to maintain stage control against Luigi. At low %'s, use F-Throw or U-Throw, then reset the position and bait him a lot to try and take center stage back. Then punish at all times.

Vs Link: Link is SUPER good right now, and his Boomerang can destroy Pit. The best thing to do, is always bait a jumping boomerang throw, then run and pivot grab Link. Use that to fully capitalize the boomerang throws and keep yourself in the lead. Keeping Link off-stage and handicapping his AGT, or DJ with Arrows is the best bet. Don't try and apply too much shield pressure, as he can OoS U-Smash/Up-B, which would give Link stage control. Spacing D-Tilts/F-Tilts on shield against Link is also really strong. However, I'd have to say Link's advantage against Pit, but BARELY.

Sharkz: MU's is one thing, but when you play other people. You always want to learn how to play against the player, not against the character. Having knowledge of MU's, and how they work is one thing. But the majority would come from playing the other player. Having that being said! Is there any MU information you were wanting? Vixen, Archangel, or I can give pointers.

 

[Sharkz]

Sharkz: MU's is one thing, but when you play other people. You always want to learn how to play against the player, not against the character. Having knowledge of MU's, and how they work is one thing. But the majority would come from playing the other player. Having that being said! Is there any MU information you were wanting? Vixen, Archangel, or I can give pointers.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that. Picking up on habits is one of the main things I'm working on right now. It's just that usually I only get to play with one friend of mine that uses limited characters, so when I go into a tourney and play other characters I'm not used to, I have no idea what Pit can do to that specific character and vice-versa.
For instance, if I was to play a tournament today and play against people who used Pikachu, Samus, IC's, Rob, Wario, etc. I wouldn't know what would work against them. I'd basically have to figure it all out in 4 stocks.

 

[BlinkIV]

Right, that's how I learned the MU's, but at the cost of some tournament results. But if your region is limited, and you don't have any idea about certain MU's. Feel free to ask me, I can give pointers/advice regarding every MU.

 

[5-oNe]

im really late jumping onto this.but i have been playing pit for awhile and do live in a very strong region if not one of the strongest regions. pit does well against spacies especially in 3.0. he chain grabs them with dthrow and u have to jcgrab. the timing is not very strict once u get used to it. (reminds me of dr marios uthrow from melee). and also upsmash out of shield helps tremendously against them especially since you should be able to punish them even more after the upsmash.

 

[BlinkIV]

What region is this, lol.

Pit has always done well against Spacies in general. Falco was considerably his worst MU, but it might not still be that way. You can either CG with U-Throw or D-Throw. Up-Smash OoS has always been good, along with OoS Up-B against spacies, well..majority of the cast.

 

[5-oNe]

chicago...so i play alot of spacies including scythe rat and kels every week.and do just fine against them...we also have oro (and he plays ZSS, and its a hard matchup for pit).and kirk(bowser) is here all the time and he knows the pit matchup pretty well.but i havent seen kirk since 3.0 so it might be in pits favor now, with the new little nerfs they gave bowser.

 

[Vixen]

pit does not have a dthrow cg vs spacies. rat, scythe, and kels di in. I know from playing them. No DI, DI up, DI down, and DI away all stop it from working. Pit DOES have an uthrow cg vs them though. it works around 30% or so, similarly to melee peach's cg.

usmash works some of the time. proper pressure and spacing stops this. use it sparingly.

fox/falco/wolf/peach/mario in that order are easily pit's worst m/us

 

[5-oNe]

yeah.im not saying to use it constantly.lol.but how u use it can make the difference.can use it early to let them know they better watch out or save it and use it for a kill especially for fox since he is light...and i agree that fox is his worst matchup especially if they dont approach.but i have more trouble against peach than falco and wolf.just have to be REALLY patient against falco and wolf.even if falco laser spams it really should only take 2 or 3 hits/grabs to kill him.

 

[5-oNe]

and with wolf i have gotten used to the fact that i feel like i am never in control of the match because of all his active hitboxes all the time.but he can do all of the fighting he wants on stage as long as u can get quick solid edge guards. and his pink shield is the easiest to crouch cancel.

 

[Vixen]

now that i think about it i actually do better vs good wolf and falco main than i do vs good peach and sheik mains. i learned that pit has almost no answer to spaced sheik f tilt, and sheik's bair. they're longer than his moveset and he gets knocked down at 30% if he tries to cc ftilt. so dumb.

fox is my most hated match up. I still have nightmares of playing DJN. The few times I got a solid hit on him I did like 100% or so off a good combo, but he went so long not getting hit that I lost. I would put money on doing better vs like M2K/Mango, since they don't play like DJ does >.>

 

[5-oNe]

yeah.mango would probably be the easiest just cause pit can counter mangos playstyle.m2k would be trouble since he has no problem laser spamming which would be such a pain...and dj is just unlike anybody else.lol.

on another note i tend to struggle against shieks too and sometimes zelda because of how floaty she is as well

 

[Vixen]

http://www.twitch.tv/vmundimizuki/c/3519003

Vs K9's MK. :3

 

[BlinkIV]

Haha, wow. You're in Chicago, nice. I know how it is, I've played against some of them when they came to LTC. ZSS isn't a bad MU for Pit, me and Oro?! actually go even in our matches. I haven't played Rat, Scythe, or Kirk yet. But I'm hoping to play him at APEX.

Personally, I'm not scared of Fox, or Peach, maybe Falco too. I've played M2K with him using those characters when I was at Forte, and it wasn't that bad. Wolf can be bad, yeah. But from my experiences, they aren't MU's that grind Pit into the ground.

If anything, Lucas is an MU you should watch out for. If you have any player that plays, AND handles Lucas like Oracle does. Then you'll see what I mean.

 

[5-oNe]

yeah.i think me and my pits worst matchups are the ones were people can out range me.cause i play very patiently.ALOT of dash dancing all over the place. so the pressure characters like lucas and the spacies i do very well against.but be careful if u do go against sycthe or rat because they say they really love the matchup even if they get edge guarded early because pit is like the perfect weight/floatiness for their combos. also metroid too. he is pretty good at the matchup with ike and charizard. even though i split even with him. he knows some weird di mix ups/ chain grabs.and ike's sword can tear everyone apart.lol.

 

[Vixen]

peach is a gay match up.

 

[Sharkz]

Any advice for the Link matchup?

 

[Vixen]

Any advice for the Link matchup?

pick falco and push buttons