Pit General Match-Up Thread

[BlinkIV]

Spamspamspam. Yeah, in that MU, I feel Pit has to heavily outplay the Marth to be able to make it seem fair in Pit's favor.

 

[Nguz95]

What a drag. It seems like none of the Brawl newcomers can handle both the spacies and the other top tiers consistently, excepting Wolf. Pit has so much going for him, but Marth's tip forces him to be more like his Brawl incarnation. When I was watching you and Archangel, I noticed you tended to save jumps for after the glide so you could bypass the ledge and land on the stage. Landing on the stage is preferable because Pit's up b is hard to sweetspot right?
EDIT: what does CD mean? Sorry about that, I am pretty new to smash in general.

 

[BlinkIV]

Yeah, for the most part, when Pit is playing against Marth, recovering high is ideal in most cases, but mixing it up always prevails over taking the same option. The reason I glide first in most cases, is to get a momentum jump after (If you jump right after gliding, you get an extended boost on the jump).

 

[Nguz95]

I didn't know that. How do you deal with Marth's shield pressure? It's harder to hit the up b or dair oos because Marth is usually not close to you when he is pressuring. How do you deal with it?

 

[BlinkIV]

Use Up-B OoS if he does a D-air above your shield. Otherwise OoS D-air/F-air are your best options, but it depends on Marth's spacing, and where his postition is when you perform an OoS option.

 

[Nguz95]

Fair OoS. Interesting. How do you gimp Marth's recovery? From personal experience the standard edgehog is more effective than arrows because Marth's up b is so fast. However, when Marth is farther away and is forced to use the dancing blade, the arrows come in very handy. What do you think Xeven?

 

[BlinkIV]

Standard edgehog is more effective than arrows when he goes to recover, but when he's far off-stage and tries to Dancing Blade back, just arrow as soon as he does it, so he won't get that "stall", and it'll be cancelled.

 

[Vixen]

I let Marth recover to the stage and hit him really hard. Eventually Marth will die.

Don't focus on gimping him. Pit doesn't do it well.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

 

[Nguz95]

I let Marth recover to the stage and hit him really hard. Eventually Marth will die.

Don't focus on gimping him. Pit doesn't do it well.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

Just keep on beating him until he dies. I like it. Do you force him to recover above the ledge?

 

[Vixen]

above is ideal.

 

[iode]

Fair OoS. Interesting. How do you gimp Marth's recovery? From personal experience the standard edgehog is more effective than arrows because Marth's up b is so fast. However, when Marth is farther away and is forced to use the dancing blade, the arrows come in very handy. What do you think Xeven?

One thing that I've done in my matches that has proven to be very reliable as well as deadly against Marths is this: side B instant ledge grab -> ledge hop as quickly as possible to retain invincibility frames -> invincible rising Bair onto stage. A Marth performing up B will inevitably be hit by Pit's relatively powerful Bair and will probably die. Coming from a Falco/Fox main, performing this little maneuver didn't require much additional practice, but some practice might be required so you can do it quickly enough to ensure that your invincible long enough such that the Marth's up B doesn't hit you out of your Bair since his up B hitbox precedes Marth's character hurtbox.

 

[Vixen]

^I've been doing that since 2.0. Glad people are finally catching on.

 

[Nguz95]

One thing that I've done in my matches that has proven to be very reliable as well as deadly against Marths is this: side B instant ledge grab -> ledge hop as quickly as possible to retain invincibility frames -> invincible rising Bair onto stage. A Marth performing up B will inevitably be hit by Pit's relatively powerful Bair and will probably die. Coming from a Falco/Fox main, performing this little maneuver didn't require much additional practice, but some practice might be required so you can do it quickly enough to ensure that your invincible long enough such that the Marth's up B doesn't hit you out of your Bair since his up B hitbox precedes Marth's character hurtbox.

That is actually really smart. I'll have to try that out. Thank you very much.

 

[iode]

That is actually really smart. I'll have to try that out. Thank you very much.

No problem, anytime. Being well versed in the Falco vs Marth matchup from my years in melee really paved the way in terms of understanding how to approach and especially kill Marth. His up B recovery has always been tricky to stop, but once you get used to understanding how to exploit its mechanics, namely its low horizontal and fixed length, you'll start crushing that forward smash crazed marth friend of yours haha.

 

[iode]

On another note, any match up advice for Game & Watch?

Here are some observations I've made from many hours of playing against one. His Dair is basically uncontestable, you can shield it but it pokes like a mofo, especially the shockwave part. Also, the shockwave propagates after G&W touches down, which means the shockwave is actually covering the L cancel delay for the Dair, making timing dash dance grabs that much harder. Trying to intercept it with Uair leads to a rather sad trade unless G&W is above 120% such that he dies, since Pit gets shot sideways off the stage while G&W just gets hit up, leading to an edgeguard opportunity for him. His bacon wall is amazing for stopping over the stage glide recoveries. Recovering under the stage means trying to sweet spot from the bottom, which is extremely difficult considering the disjointed hitbox of G&W's Dtilt manhole cover. His Dtilt has a tall enough hitbox that it can hit Pit out of his short hop. His Utilt has amazing priority and lasts for an ungodly amount of frames (same with his Ftilt chair), with nearly 100% of those frames being sweetspot frames, thus rendering Dair approaches from the top dangerous, trying to fake it out with a jump is very unrewarding considering how quickly G&W can perform Utilts. Again, approaches from underneath are dangerous with the aforementioned G&W Dair (it even trades with Up B). His aerials have large enough hitboxes that cover his hurt box such that his short hop aerial approaches actually cut through arrow fire. His Fair also trades advantageously with Pit's aerials, it flat out beats Pit's Nair, and only trades if Pit's Fair is pulled out at exactly the right time, otherwise Pit usually loses the trade. Camping him out is useless because he just catches arrows with his bucket and can then pull it out for a fun 25% heavy damage/kill attack.

In terms of strengths, I find G&W very susceptible to Dthrow Up B, and if he DIs away, then free Fair. He isn't heavy enough to be Armada combo'd, ie. Fair > Arrow > Fair. Also his weight also makes him very vulnerable to light Uair chains to finishing Up B.

As you can see, I discovered more weaknesses than strengths in the G&W match up. Help me out here?

 

[Nguz95]

That's a strange sounding MU. Good thing there aren't too many GnWs floating around, because he sounds like a problem. The arrows don't seem to be as effective as they normally would because of the oil spill. I spy a problem.

 

[Vixen]

gnw isn't hard. If gnw does dair, WD away. if GNW does any other move, grab him. Don't shoot arrows, instead, abuse the fact that you're faster and better in literally every way.

gnw is a bad character. Abuse this.

 

[BlinkIV]

^ No. G&W is actually a good character, very gimmicky, and a little hard to fight. I've been playing two of if not "The best" G&W's out there right now (Oracle and Dakpo), and I can honestly say, Pit can have trouble in that MU. Sure, G&W does die early, and gets combo'd easily, but he's got the same thing to do on Pit. Not to mention his Up-B OoS wrecks almost every attack that you can do on his shield (Shield pressure isn't too effective on him). He's got a good Tech Chase if needed, his DACUS is very gimmicky to time shielding right, kills super early, he's got good ways to approach Pit. "Bacon bouncing" is such a good approach to abuse against Pit, Pit doesn't have much to do except for: 1. Hope and pray G&W messes up. 2. Try to dodge and possibly fail and get combo'd. Otherwise, yeah this MU definitely doesn't seem in Pits favor as it is, just wait for more G&W's to catch up and learn his "secrets"

 

[iode]

Yea, the bacon approach seemed pretty silly at first, but then it slowly got on my nerves, and as the GnW I was playing slowly started stopping almost every approach I could throw at him, I had to just swallow a bitter pill and admit that the bacon wall was, in essence, a ridiculously good move. It's just a minefield of high damage projectiles floating in front/above GnW, completely shutting down full hop and even short hop approaches. The few times I could get through and combo/land hits do not balance out the times I get shut down and hit with some very damaging GnW attacks (why does GnW hurt so much?). That pretty much leaves grounded attacks, and we all know that Pit's grab and dash attack are not the best things in the world, especially when it's compromised with raining bacon/sausages.
Also, I think GnW's Dtilt is the best Dtilt in the game.

 

[BlinkIV]

^ This. I completely agree with you, approaching him is also hard, since if you hit him--Oops, CC D-Tilt > Stock, lol. But like I mentioned, Pit can deal some hard damage on G&W if he lands that hit or grab, I'd just say try to keep G&W in the air as much as you can. Grounded fight is not in Pit's favor, aerial, maybe. I've been experimenting to see if weak U-air beats G&W's D-air. Weak U-Air beats Ness' D-air (Only weak U-air), so it's a possibility.

 

[Dakpo]

gnw isn't hard. If gnw does dair, WD away. if GNW does any other move, grab him. Don't shoot arrows, instead, abuse the fact that you're faster and better in literally every way.

gnw is a bad character. Abuse this.

100% accurate

 

[Vixen]

Basically, SaiXven, you're saying "Gnw is gimmicks."

That does not scream "good character" to me.

 

[iode]

Wobbles claims that GnW is a very good character:
"I'm working on convincing people that Game and Watch is actually an amazing character." -Wobbles

I'd err on the side of caution when dismissing GnW so readily as being bad. I've logged quite some unbiased hours both playing with and against GnW and it really does appear that he has a strong game, especially in his anti-aerial capabilities.

 

[SpiderMad]

Pit though is top tier

 

[iode]

Pit though is top tier

But uh, the idea behind PM is that every character is top tier. Am I to understand your stipulation that because Pit is top tier, he can't have poor matchups?

 

[SpiderMad]

What are Pit's bad MUs?

 

[Vixen]

Pit has quite a few bad/unfavorable match ups.

First and foremost, link and tink are really high up there on.

Next up is falco, wolf, and falcon.

Then to a lesser extent, charizard, and fox.

Gnw is only difficult when you let his gimmicks be a factor. All around solid play, and character knowledge or adaption makes gnw much less threatening.

Disagree with pit being top tier. Far too many shortcomings.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

 

[QraQ]

I feel like Falcon, L Iink and TL are good matchups for Pit, almost in his favor. CF can get combo'd hard and gimped even harder. Link is easily gimped and I think Pit has a better approach game than him. Link only has nair to help him in the air; all other moves get out-prioritized. TL is a little tricky but not a counter by any means. His aerials clink well with Pits' and he has more kill option than Pit imo. But Pit can get easier combos on TL. TL can also be gimped I just find it harder since his UpB is faster and can sweetspot harder than Links'.
I agree Falco and Wolf counter Pit hard cause their approach is much easier to establish than Pits. And their projectile screws up any glide rushing you want to do from mid-range. Fox is even imo. He can't really gimp Pit hard but Pit can gimp him. Fox has a better ground game, but Pit has better aerial game. I've done so many CG to D-air juggling to Fox's it almost seems fullproof with a little bit of DI reading.
Charizard gets wrecked imo. Big characters in general get thrown down by Pit.

I think Pit has potential to be top tier based on his kit and his hard to achieve metagame. As far as from what I see right now though, he is not top tier by any means.

P.S. Sonic is Pit's worst matchup easily.

 

[QraQ]

Wobbles claims that GnW is a very good character:
"I'm working on convincing people that Game and Watch is actually an amazing character." -Wobbles

I'd err on the side of caution when dismissing GnW so readily as being bad. I've logged quite some unbiased hours both playing with and against GnW and it really does appear that he has a strong game, especially in his anti-aerial capabilities.

I agree on GnW. Bacon and frying pan just do soooo much: spike, mid-air pressure, shield pressure, easily cancel-able frames and great setup potential. Also, GnW just seems faster with how many things you can cancel in this...

 

[BlinkIV]

Sonic is not Pit's worst MU.

 

[QraQ]

Sonic is not Pit's worst MU.

Matter of opinion obviously. I find the MU to be nearly one-sided in Sonic's favor.
Also, Sonic can handle Pit's recovery with his ability to do far off-edge guarding. Based on the angles Sonic takes alone, arrows are much harder to pinpoint for starting a combo; not to mention any ball type attack (Nair, DA, homing) makes his character model pretty hard to hit. Our top player right now is a Sonic main and he handles my Pit very well. Granted he may understand my style but I'm much more consistent against him with my other characters. Pit being my main and not giving him much trouble can attest to my understanding of the matchup.

 

[BlinkIV]

It is a matter of opinion, I agree with that. I just play defensive/bait against Sonic for the most part until I get a hit to a full combo, but I feel as if there's a few key elements in this MU (Which I'm still figuring out). Pit's D-air works wonders against Sonic's ball attacks, OoS U-Air can also punish homing attack if he hits your shield. I mean, I've mainly practiced with Sethlon's Sonic (Since 2.1 and even now) which is really strong to play. Even still, I'm sure there are other bad MU's Pit has, like Luigi for example.

 

[Vixen]

Sonic is pretty easy. All of his moves are fairly linear, low priority, and range. His recovery is ass and ridiculously exploitable by pit, and gets destroyed by pretty much anything pit does. The secret to this match up is to invade sonic's space with your shield, and react to him.

TL and Link are by far Pit's worst match up. Tink is faster and has better projectiles, and better, more consistent, more powerful grab follow ups. He also has more, better, more consistent kill set ups. Link has the better projectiles, massive range advantage, quick grounded normals to keep Pit out, and that grab game from hell. Pit has to severely out play Link/Tink.

Falcon is similar to a Falco ditto, the difference being: Falcon's nair, and Knee beat arrows. Falcon's grab game is better. Falcon kills Pit at 70% with guaranteed uthrow knee. Falcon has better mobility overall. Pit's only good advantage is that he has the uthrow chaingrab on Falcon at a lower percentage than he does vs the space animals.

GnW's pan is just like everything else; gimmicks. Once you're aware of how it works, dealing with the pan is easy. GnW is not a good character at all, guys.

 

[QraQ]

Sonic is pretty easy. All of his moves are fairly linear, low priority, and range. His recovery is *** and ridiculously exploitable by pit, and gets destroyed by pretty much anything pit does. The secret to this match up is to invade sonic's space with your shield, and react to him.

TL and Link are by far Pit's worst match up. Tink is faster and has better projectiles, and better, more consistent, more powerful grab follow ups. He also has more, better, more consistent kill set ups. Link has the better projectiles, massive range advantage, quick grounded normals to keep Pit out, and that grab game from hell. Pit has to severely out play Link/Tink.

Falcon is similar to a Falco ditto, the difference being: Falcon's nair, and Knee beat arrows. Falcon's grab game is better. Falcon kills Pit at 70% with guaranteed uthrow knee. Falcon has better mobility overall. Pit's only good advantage is that he has the uthrow chaingrab on Falcon at a lower percentage than he does vs the space animals.

GnW's pan is just like everything else; gimmicks. Once you're aware of how it works, dealing with the pan is easy. GnW is not a good character at all, guys.

I disagree with pretty much all of this. Sonic's recovery is not easily gimpable like you said for the mere reason that his angles and size in ball form keep him safe from arrows ( i can aim it's just rough with Sonic). I'd say the only real attacks Pit can throw at him off stage is fair and uair. Dair is decent when Sonic is approaching low but I don't see that happen often. Nair is really just for displacement and setting up combos, not edge-guarding.

TL is not faster than Pit imo. TL's projectiles are not necessarily "better", they just have more all around uses than Pits. Pit's ability top gimp harder with his arrows makes them equal if not better than TLs. The only grab follow-up you need vs TL is a dthrow to usmash or dair at any % below 70, then after uairs carry TL easily and outprioritize all of his aerials. The only thing I think Link has for Pit is he can take over the mid-air range that Pits' use so well. Other than that I think combos vs Link are easily obtained. You can ice-cream scoop dair him like 6 times without plats.

You really can't bring up Falcon as a counter to Pit tbh. Falcon combos everyone like you say. The only difference is a dthrow or uthrow into the knee. Although the reason Falcon is not made to be top tier is due to his still ****ty recovery, even with the over-B change. So many situations come about where you can B-throw Falcon off the stage then just work him into an easily gimpable situation with arrows.

I really disagree with your analysis of GW. Pan does pretty much everything and is a huge part of GW's kit. GW benefited greatly from PM changes, I'd prolly say best of any Melee character. The way his moves cancel into one another makes him incredibly fast and combo worthy. Pan and Bacon are probably some of the best pressure tools in the game imo.
Bacon combos are a fairly simple but effective process: Spam and space to leave opening in bacon where you know they can counter, place a move in that spot lol. And if you pan carry most mid to large characters at around 20% you can carry them across the stage with it into an arc spike. Not to mention pivot bacon, all the shield pressure you need....

 

[BlinkIV]

Falcon Vs Pit is 50-50 imo. Both combo each other, both can get easy 0-death combos, Pit has a little more to "abuse" against Falcon (U-Smash is super good against him).

 

[Vixen]

TL's boomerang and bomb are both better than pit's arrow. Reasons being: TL has significantly better mobility due to them being thrown projectiles, and because they combo easier, and in to harder hitting moves. You die earlier to bomb/boomerang > dair/up b than he dies to any of pit's follow ups. Tink also has all of his AGT tricksies which significantly increase his mobility and options.

Sounds like you just need to get better TBH. Sonic IS easily edgeguardable. Note that I didn't say gimp. He isn't easy to gimp, but edgeguards are practically free. Sonic's recovery blows, and you have all the correct tools to make sonic hate his life.

Same thing about pan. They're gimmicks that can easily be dealt with. Just study, study, study. Once you're aware of how bacon and pan function, it's easy to play around it. personally I just like to say **** it and tank them. GnW players expect follow ups off a bacon hit, but you can usually put something out beforehand. one of the secrets is not to shield, unless gnw is already committed to a move. gnw has quite a lot of windup on his most important moves. abuse this.

Falcon IS a viable counter. Falcon beats pit on stage so heavily that it easily offsets his abusable recovery.

 

[QraQ]

TL's boomerang and bomb are both better than pit's arrow. Reasons being: TL has significantly better mobility due to them being thrown projectiles, and because they combo easier, and in to harder hitting moves. You die earlier to bomb/boomerang > dair/up b than he dies to any of pit's follow ups. Tink also has all of his AGT tricksies which significantly increase his mobility and options.

Sounds like you just need to get better TBH. Sonic IS easily edgeguardable. Note that I didn't say gimp. He isn't easy to gimp, but edgeguards are practically free. Sonic's recovery blows, and you have all the correct tools to make sonic hate his life.

Same thing about pan. They're gimmicks that can easily be dealt with. Just study, study, study. Once you're aware of how bacon and pan function, it's easy to play around it. personally I just like to say **** it and tank them. GnW players expect follow ups off a bacon hit, but you can usually put something out beforehand. one of the secrets is not to shield, unless gnw is already committed to a move. gnw has quite a lot of windup on his most important moves. abuse this.

Falcon IS a viable counter. Falcon beats pit on stage so heavily that it easily offsets his abusable recovery.

I think the very fact that TL has to 1) pull out his bomb and 2) wind up on boomerang makes those null and void vs good Pits, with arrow interrupts, except following-up combos. Even with AGT, Pit still has more and better mobility options than TL, especially off-stage edgeguarding..

I mean I'll try edgeguarding harder but I think you're either underestimating my guy's Sonic or overestimating yours. He knows Sonic quite well and has proved very resilient with anything regarding off-stage play.

GW basically plays like a Brawl character now. The moves that are important for starting combos(bair, dair, uair) don't have very much windup and they lead into harder windup moves (nair, fair, usmash, fsmash). I've studied GW a lot playing as him but not against him so you could be right. I don't think you're seeing the potential of GW cause you really haven't seen ones that embrace his new style. I'm the top GW in my community (as much as that means), and I'll get some vids that will hopefully lead you into discussing GW's potential.

Falcon doesn't even beat Pit that hard on stage. It is literally whoever gets the first well-placed hit. Both can tech chase really well. Both dominate the midair range. Pit has a projectile that easily combos and gimps CF. CF has nair, which is hard for Pit to deal with but can be beat by fair, bair and dair fairly easy with glide rushes. Falcon can counter everyone and is countered by most, just pretty much how this game built him.

 

[Vixen]

You're not going to be able to arrow interrupt every time vs Tink. In fact, if they're any good, they're going to pull/throw only in safe situations. Either when you're already doing something else, or you're in stun from getting hit by one of his other moves.

Secondly, you're underestimating my scene. I live in AZ, and play with top level players on a fairly regular basis. From what you've shown me of your scene, even our unranked players are better than your #2/#1 players. I don't like to pull the scene ego, but you're constantly referencing your experience, but based off what I've scene, you, and your opponents are very clearly inexperienced, or not nearly as experienced as myself, and the people I play with. It's obvious in the small details, like spacing, how you guys react to situations, how you handle your character, etc. Nothing about it screams "good player" to me, and I mean that in the least offensive way I can make it out. Truth be told, I think you're making hasty, unsubstantiated claims, especially because a lot of your claims are based off theory, while mine are based off playing people.

Falcon beats Pit on stage very handily, and here is why. Everything Falcon does is easier than Pit. When examining a fairly even match up, you have to go further in depth. This is very similar to the marth vs falcon argument of old. The main issue is that Falcon gets everything of his easier than pit. My falcon experience comes from playing against GamerGuitarist7, Jetfour/Jackie, and Oksas. From my experience, with good DI, Pit's everything is significantly less effective. With Falcon, REGARDLESS of DI, he has strong guaranteed follow ups on nearly everything he can do. Also if Falcon stays grounded, and dances around Pit, or better yet, just runs in and crouch cancels Pit's attempt to swing, he can CC Grab in to a death combo with absolute ease. This counters Pit's only good anti-falcon move, his Usmash. Nair and Knee go through arrow, which requires a huge commitment to shoot. People don't understand that Pit's arrows are a huge commitment. There's a massive wind-down lag, and he has poor movement during the arrow animation, and a predictable arc of movement at that.

 

[QraQ]

You're not going to be able to arrow interrupt every time vs Tink. In fact, if they're any good, they're going to pull/throw only in safe situations. Either when you're already doing something else, or you're in stun from getting hit by one of his other moves.

Secondly, you're underestimating my scene. I live in AZ, and play with top level players on a fairly regular basis. From what you've shown me of your scene, even our unranked players are better than your #2/#1 players. I don't like to pull the scene ego, but you're constantly referencing your experience, but based off what I've scene, you, and your opponents are very clearly inexperienced, or not nearly as experienced as myself, and the people I play with. It's obvious in the small details, like spacing, how you guys react to situations, how you handle your character, etc. Nothing about it screams "good player" to me, and I mean that in the least offensive way I can make it out. Truth be told, I think you're making hasty, unsubstantiated claims, especially because a lot of your claims are based off theory, while mine are based off playing people.

Falcon beats Pit on stage very handily, and here is why. Everything Falcon does is easier than Pit. When examining a fairly even match up, you have to go further in depth. This is very similar to the marth vs falcon argument of old. The main issue is that Falcon gets everything of his easier than pit. My falcon experience comes from playing against GamerGuitarist7, Jetfour/Jackie, and Oksas. From my experience, with good DI, Pit's everything is significantly less effective. With Falcon, REGARDLESS of DI, he has strong guaranteed follow ups on nearly everything he can do. Also if Falcon stays grounded, and dances around Pit, or better yet, just runs in and crouch cancels Pit's attempt to swing, he can CC Grab in to a death combo with absolute ease. This counters Pit's only good anti-falcon move, his Usmash. Nair and Knee go through arrow, which requires a huge commitment to shoot. People don't understand that Pit's arrows are a huge commitment. There's a massive wind-down lag, and he has poor movement during the arrow animation, and a predictable arc of movement at that.

Word

 

[iode]

I keep hearing the term "gimmick" being thrown around in terms of GnW's tactics and moves. I don't know if it's just me, but I tend to define a gimmicky techniques as moves that are easily exploitable, but have glaring weaknesses. On the contrary, I actually believe GnW's moveset and combo tree lend itself to being very safe for their potential reward returns.