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Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

Coro_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
179
Location
Singapore
i've never played different against G&W if anything as pikachu you can use Tjolt to get game and watch to do what you want
It's really not worth the risk giving G&W Oil Panic to work with, Pika's frail as it is already...
I mean, if you're confident, go ahead and tjolt away, but I'd rather not run the risk of dying at 20% on my second stock :/
 
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Pikabunz

Smash Hero
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Jan 4, 2007
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What you do is get G&W to kill percent and throw out a jolt to bait his bucket and get a free upsmash. Remember, he needs to absorb 3 projectiles for him to use his bucket. Letting him get 1 or 2 jolts isn't going to hurt.
 

LaserResal

Smash Cadet
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Jun 6, 2015
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Nipomo, CA
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LaserResal
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I personally find the G%W matchup to be in Pika's favor strictly because of the mobility options that are at Pika's disposal. G%W's moves are clunky, even though some are quite fast hitting. In my personal experience if you can bait out the oil stacking with tjolt and go in close you can get G&W for some good damage. Again, just an opinion on my part :p
 

Coro_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
179
Location
Singapore
I suppose if you're just fishing for the kill then it works, but that still means racking up damage on G&W first without using tjolt.
And yeah, like I said, if you're confident then baiting the bucket is a free hit, but you're giving him a very powerful KO tool. If you're confident enough that you can kill him in 3 baits before he gets the oil on you, or if you think you can avoid the oil (since you can go ham with tjolt once the bucket's full) then go ahead~ I just think that the trade off isn't worth it, since Oil Panic is too much of a threat. I guess this part comes down to the skill of the pika and the G&W.
G&W is pretty clunky but hard to read due to his animations imo, although I guess this isn't really much of a factor since playing as him or against him should fix that. Disjoints are still hard to get around though, due to pika's range problems.
 

Pikabunz

Smash Hero
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G&W can actually be pretty scary for Pikachu. Good G&W's usually won't fall for the jolt bait or they'll do it knowing you can't get a good punish off of it. His uair and dtilt are what scare me the most. Those moves can push you up which can be really bad if he catches your QA with it.
 

LaserResal

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I personally think it's a 50/50 matchup with the deciding factor being Pika's ability to get kills when available and not having to fish for kills longer than needed.
 

Gibbs

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
186
So after I got harshly stomped on by Meccs on stream this week at my weekly, I've been putting a lot of thought into the Ness match-up. This seems like a good time to talk about this match-up since I believe the massive buff to PSI magnet in patch 1.0.8 has changed the dynamics of pika's neutral game quite a bit.

While it was never safe to use t-jolt against Ness, pre-patch at least he had to commit to something laggy to reflect/absorb. Now that psi magnet is totally free (end lag reduced to only 4 frames down from 20) t-jolt and thunder are almost removed from our tool kit. With only QA left in our bag of gimmicks pika is left to play an almost *shudder* honest neutral game. In my sets versus my friend's Ness (over wi-fi sadly) I was pleased to find how effective pika's grounded spacing and footsies game is against Ness. Ness has great tools to box out Pika with his super disjointed and fast SH fair, the occasional well spaced PK Fire, and a decent to good jab and tilts. He even had decent anti QA tools with SH nair and cheesy onstage PK thunder stuff.

The big thing he lacks however, is any reliable way to approach a grounded pika. Dtilt is great in this match up, as it stuffs all of Ness's grounded approach options (maybe dash attack is disjointed enough to be a problem, but I haven't experimented with that yet, shouldn't be too big of a problem as it is super unsafe on shield). I also found that D-smash to be a decent anti aerial option against Ness for when a falling fair is poorly spaced.

Since Ness can convert so well off of a grab at almost any percent, baiting dash grabs is likely to be a big part of this match up. I find that one effective mind game is to deliberately wiff an f smash and then punish the dash in with a d smash. This isn't safe by any means, but since it hits frame 8 (only 2 frames later than our fastest tilt or standing grab) and has enough knockback to possibly set up an edge gaurd. D-tilt and SH nair are also ok options, since the get space and might force a tech chase scenario or set up a jab lock, but between these two D-tilt is the best option as it has way more range and shouldn't get shield grabbed or stuffed by a SH fair or dash attack.

There's tons more to say about this match up, especially on off stage shenanigans, effective and safe QA useage and how not to get grabbed, but I'm quickly getting out of my depth on this subject. I'm going to guess that a lot of pikachu mains are going to say that pika might lose this matchup, but I think that is because Ness' strengths define the matchup more than pika's. But even if Ness restricts pika options quite a bit, and even if he has really janky easy kills I suspect pika might still have more ways to win. Though it's probably super even.

Now for some ESAM footage. All Pika mains should study this set that was played last week between ESAM and Shaky at a weekly in south florida. It contains not only some of the highest quality Pika and Ness play I've ever seen, it might just be one of the better sets of smash 4 to have taken place so far. Get hype and take notes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II9JB81jxLw

And just for full disclosure, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, here is me getting absolutely bopped by Meccs. If you refuse to take me seriously after seeing this I wouldn't blame you. This was my first time on stream XD:

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/v/6513643?t=1h20m14s

I have johns for days about how on tilt I was after work and on little sleep, but really Meccs is just on a totally different level than me at the moment and would beat me at my best. I just wish I went out in a way that didn't make my pika look like slopcity. Hope I get to play him again soon.
 

PrinceofPeace

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
4
NNID
PoketMonster6162
The worse match ups I have with Mr.G&W,Pikachu is against another pikachu does anyone have any advice for that? Also I who wins these match ups Mario vs Pikachu and Pikach vs luigi and Pikachu vs Ness I personally hate fighting luigi with Pikachu and don't know the match up
 

Soul.

 
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
19,659
Luigi is a tough *** MU, honestly. Grabs for days. I honestly feel we're better off using someone else.
Actually no, maybe I'm just being pessimistic. His mobility sucks at least, so perhaps camping with Jolts helps. "Don't get grabbed" is the norm.
Speaking of which, is there any way to DI the down throw for less combos? I've been wondering this for a long time now.
 

PrinceofPeace

Smash Rookie
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Jan 21, 2015
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4
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You can DI backwards into luigi but you can still get hit with fair and bair and ok I am very aggresive with pika that explains why
 

hell-dew

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
183
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Ontario
luigi is a do the damage and reset it to neutral kinda char your combo game gets heavily neutered and his fireball is SUPER dumb in the neutral (PS or else have fun) it is + on block which is pretty silly and his dash grab can easily punish a ton of our options meaning if he sheilds he can actually mess us up pretty hard. his grab range is also literally just better then ours meaning he can out space us for grabs if the luigi has any reaction time and his dash grab is nuts.

Your forced to gimp him and gimp him hard. I think Dair beats nado (although its tough as heck to time if the luigi isnt a moron due to dair being sluggish on startup) and Nair destroys his Side B recovery (hit him at the end of it) BEWARE OF MISFIRE ive had misfires trade with the thunder 2 hitbox before (which i timed pretty nicely) and it traded resulting in my death which is dumb. i havent found a way to intercept his up B yet though (need to test more)

honestly our lack of ability to safely apply shield pressure and luigis ability to punish OOS makes this MU really really dumb ive honestly tested a ton of things and havent had much success his Nair makes comboing hard his Bair kills his grab can kill and he can also kill you after a grab followup with Bair and nado.never airdodge a grab ever you will get UpBed if the luigi isnt bad. TBH i find i can fight him to some extent in the neutral but he not only out damages us but he has options that cover multiple options of ours and reward him heavily also he can kill us stupidly easily where as we have a stupid hard time killing him

never quick attack out of neutral a whole lot vs him cause he can punish it pretty easily if he reacts with nair and understand if he doesn't powershield it will actually send him back pretty hard in terms of the slide effect he has and honestly camping him with jolts doesnt work nicely against him in my experience.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
So after I got harshly stomped on by Meccs on stream this week at my weekly, I've been putting a lot of thought into the Ness match-up. This seems like a good time to talk about this match-up since I believe the massive buff to PSI magnet in patch 1.0.8 has changed the dynamics of pika's neutral game quite a bit.

While it was never safe to use t-jolt against Ness, pre-patch at least he had to commit to something laggy to reflect/absorb. Now that psi magnet is totally free (end lag reduced to only 4 frames down from 20) t-jolt and thunder are almost removed from our tool kit. With only QA left in our bag of gimmicks pika is left to play an almost *shudder* honest neutral game. In my sets versus my friend's Ness (over wi-fi sadly) I was pleased to find how effective pika's grounded spacing and footsies game is against Ness. Ness has great tools to box out Pika with his super disjointed and fast SH fair, the occasional well spaced PK Fire, and a decent to good jab and tilts. He even had decent anti QA tools with SH nair and cheesy onstage PK thunder stuff.

The big thing he lacks however, is any reliable way to approach a grounded pika. Dtilt is great in this match up, as it stuffs all of Ness's grounded approach options (maybe dash attack is disjointed enough to be a problem, but I haven't experimented with that yet, shouldn't be too big of a problem as it is super unsafe on shield). I also found that D-smash to be a decent anti aerial option against Ness for when a falling fair is poorly spaced.

Since Ness can convert so well off of a grab at almost any percent, baiting dash grabs is likely to be a big part of this match up. I find that one effective mind game is to deliberately wiff an f smash and then punish the dash in with a d smash. This isn't safe by any means, but since it hits frame 8 (only 2 frames later than our fastest tilt or standing grab) and has enough knockback to possibly set up an edge gaurd. D-tilt and SH nair are also ok options, since the get space and might force a tech chase scenario or set up a jab lock, but between these two D-tilt is the best option as it has way more range and shouldn't get shield grabbed or stuffed by a SH fair or dash attack.

There's tons more to say about this match up, especially on off stage shenanigans, effective and safe QA useage and how not to get grabbed, but I'm quickly getting out of my depth on this subject. I'm going to guess that a lot of pikachu mains are going to say that pika might lose this matchup, but I think that is because Ness' strengths define the matchup more than pika's. But even if Ness restricts pika options quite a bit, and even if he has really janky easy kills I suspect pika might still have more ways to win. Though it's probably super even.

Now for some ESAM footage. All Pika mains should study this set that was played last week between ESAM and Shaky at a weekly in south florida. It contains not only some of the highest quality Pika and Ness play I've ever seen, it might just be one of the better sets of smash 4 to have taken place so far. Get hype and take notes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II9JB81jxLw

And just for full disclosure, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, here is me getting absolutely bopped by Meccs. If you refuse to take me seriously after seeing this I wouldn't blame you. This was my first time on stream XD:

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/v/6513643?t=1h20m14s

I have johns for days about how on tilt I was after work and on little sleep, but really Meccs is just on a totally different level than me at the moment and would beat me at my best. I just wish I went out in a way that didn't make my pika look like slopcity. Hope I get to play him again soon.
How does ESAM fsmash out of a run at 2:38? Is that just Pikachu's initial dash, stopping, and fsmashing all in one smooth motion?

For Luigi, unless someone can show tests otherwise, well-spaced fair and uair beat his combo-breaking nair.

Also vs Ness, his autocancel fair cannot hit you if you just stand still [and ducking helps more], though he can fair if he's willing to have fair's landing lag [but then you can react to late fair and shieldgrab it I think, or at least shield it and have some sort of frame advantage].
 

Umbreoff

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
35
I didn't look at the video, but I think I know what you guys are talking about. I did it on accident the first time, then figured out how to do it on purpose later. I think you run, then just fsmash with the A button while tilting the control stick in the opposite direction. I don't know if it's frame perfect, but the timing does seem pretty strict. You might accidentally ftilt the opposite way out of the run if you press A too slowly after turning around, or you might do a dash attack and not turn around at all if you press A too fast. I hope this helps.
 

PrinceofPeace

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
4
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PoketMonster6162
G&W easily beats pikachu he is light and floaty and small so hard to get combos off on him and he can bucket tj and thunder which are very useful moves for pikachu
 

Gibbs

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
186
On the G&W matchup, bacon is a pretty decent way for G&W to try and bait certain angles of QA. Be conservative and be sure to mix up QA recovery and approaches a lot in this match-up or you'll be eating an invincible up-smash. If you play aware of his options it becomes incredibly difficult for G&W to do much of anything to Pika. IMO this matchup is the pika player's game to lose.
 

WispBae

Tsundere Princess
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
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Orlando
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Hello you ADORABLE LIL MOUSES OMG LOOK AT YOU BEING ALL CUTE AND YELLOW! LET ME KEEP ONE OF YOU PLEEEEASE!

*ahem*

The Doggy boards are discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click on this picture of grumpy Pikachu to go straight to the thread!
 

Kaishin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
79
Yo, yesterday at a tourney I was messing with Pikachu in friendlies against a Yoshi and something insane happened. I dtilted him while he was recovering with his DJ and it ate through it at like 50. I then did the same to the eggs, ending his stock.

Neither of us were particularly experienced, so a good Yoshi may have an escape, but he also might not. Wanted to throw this out there so you guys have something to play with.

I'm starting to enjoy this character again. Might secondary him after all this searching.
 

Pikabunz

Smash Hero
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Yo, yesterday at a tourney I was messing with Pikachu in friendlies against a Yoshi and something insane happened. I dtilted him while he was recovering with his DJ and it ate through it at like 50. I then did the same to the eggs, ending his stock.
He was probably about to use an aerial. Yoshi loses the armor during the start up of his aerials.
 

The_Devious

Smash Apprentice
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Sorry if this has already been discussed, but how easy/difficult is the rosalina matchup?
 
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Kaishin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
79
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but how easy/difficult is the rosalina matchup?
Having fought ESAM and another decent Pikachu not too long ago and concluding that most of my problems with Yoshi were due to lag, I've come to the conclusion that it's probably her worst matchup.

That's not to say it's downright awful, but Pikachu is simply a better character whose advantages aren't called into question by Rosalina. He's either best or second best and having favorable matchups against the vast, vast majority of the cast comes with the territory.

But, specifically, Rosalina can't lock Pikachu to the edge like she can someone like Captain Falcon or Sheik because he can just up b to safety, through Rosalina or over her. She also can't gimp him (outside of idiots who skull bash to the ledge), and it's hard to land conventional killers because of his size and how slippery he is or can be (because of his up b).

Pikachu is contrast gets free damage whenever Rosalina goes off stage (specifically, ESAM favored using bair against me) and whenever we aren't set up to punish a quick attack properly. He also has a projectile, which adds a lot to his ability to camp us out. It's not particularly hair-pullingly awful like it is with Sheik's needles, but it's a useful tool against Rosalina. There's a lot to cover, so you should probably just read the doc in the OP's post.

While it doesn't change too much because we have dtilt, our nair is made a very risky move against any character that is either tiny in their neutral and/or running/walking positions (Lolimar, occasionally Villager) or is very fast and capable of punishing nair with their speed (Fox, Captain Falcon, and especially Sonic). Pikachu is both tiny AND fast, making a nice little tool next to worthless and even detrimental against him.

Looking for a Rosalina counter? I can't imagine Lucas would be doing too bad against Rosalina. She can't just dtilt -> gravity pull his recovery like she can Ness'.
 

hell-dew

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
183
Location
Ontario
I think pika wins the rosalina MU and Red X whos a rosa player and who is better then me feels it to. people just suck at the MU i swear people dont listen or understand when i tell people when you fight rosa Abuse the living crap out of the fact that certain moves decimate luma IE things like Dash attack last hit of Fair Fsmash Upsmash (not the greatest but situational) Up air upair Nair etc they dont listen or do it properly.Outplaying a rosa with no luma really isnt hard. people let this character get away with way to much crap

the hardest thing about rosa luma imo is when she has stage control she can make a scary presence never be afraid to just reset to neutral against her pick off luma and corner her and kill her. her options without luma become severely worse and you honestly have much less to fear with out luma in the picture
 

RedBeefBaron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
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Boston, MA
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Redbeefbaron
How do you guys feel about the Luigi matchup now that fireballs have been nerfed, fair does less damage, dtilt is unreliable, but FJP is significantly better?

How do you feel about the Greninja matchup now that shurikens were buffed and dthrow was buffed?
 
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Soul.

 
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
19,659
In my honest opinion I still think Luigi is hard despite the nerfs. Throw combos are still a thing and he has better KO power than us.
It may be somewhat manageable now though, seeing as his Fireballs got 3 more frames of endlag, which means he can't stay there and spam to get the grab. Our problem is just trying to get the KO. I believe we're both even in neutral.

On Greninja, I can't say anything about it as there's almost no footage of both competent players doing their thing (I barely know this MU lol), though with its new, improved down throw, footstool combos may become present. Not to mention it can lead to FAir at high percents, so there's that. Water Shuriken buffs mean it can sit there and camp. If I'm allowed to guess, the MU is still even.
 

Eonn

Smash Apprentice
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I know Sonic has been discussed already, but I've literally never beat one still. All they do is hit me once with an aerial or a quick grab right off the start and then try to time me out. I can't seem to approach them with all their running away + spin dash + spring jumping crap either. Maybe I just need to work on punishing landings, but this matchup makes me ridiculously salty and I never, ever win it.
 

Felth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
79
Location
Chile
I'm transcribing the document made by the usser Umbreoff into a pdf version with access to other new options. If you want to check the progress of this document, Click Here to see the PDF
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
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To all Pikachus out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Pikachu. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Pikachu match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/413573/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/
 

Funkermonster

The Clown
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What do u guys think of the :4megaman: and :4greninja: matchups?

With Mega Man, our boards think we win it for sure even though you're top tier, and in my experience it seems pretty convincing despite my dislike for your character (personally, I can't stand fighting Pikachu). But I'd love to hear what you guys think of it.

With Greninja, I've seen varying opinions: being even, your favor, to ninja's favor. I'd imagine it leaning closer to yours because of Quick Attack, but again I'd love to hear your thoughts.
 

Underhill

Smash Ace
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How does pikachu fair against Luigi?
Since I face a couple of Luigi player early and main both of them, I can help you.
The MU goes to :4luigi:for 55:45.
For:4pikachu:: He has speed, better projectile, and Edgeguarding on his side. Since Luigi's recovery is linear and having the worst air speed, he's gimpble high and low. Pikachu got thunder jolts to make Luigi use up his second jump, thunder spike to either ko or slam him down to his doom, F-air for Luigi's side-b(but look out for the misfire), back-air if he goes low, and n-air to gimp him for a ko. Pikachu can give Luigi a hard time landing, but the tornado is something to keep in mind so shield it, then punish him with a grab, dash attack, or a running up smash. With mobility and QA, you can get away from Luigi to space yourself, or camp with jolts since Luigi has problems with his approaches. Pikachu is very difficult to gimp thanks to his superior recovery along with skull bash and QA. Down-tile is something to use to out-space Luigi and if you trip him, then its a free grab. Also, Pikachu can combo Luigi decently, but his n-air can combo break some of them.

For:4luigi:: What he got that Pikachu doesn't have is a better air game, koing, damage output, grab game, and better set-ups. Avoid being in the air because Pikachu's air game and Luigi's air attacks are strong enough to beat his f-air, back air, and even n-air with N-air, forward air, and back air. Even with Pikachu's n-air, Luigi can still combo him unless you mix up your di to receive less damage or to get out of the combo in time. Luigi's grab game is better because of his back throw to kill at 150% or higher, forward throw to kill off the ledge at much higher percents, and his superior down throw for combos and set-ups. While Pikachu'sko set-up is to up throw to thunder, Luigi has more such as down throw to tornado, down throw to back-air, and down-throw to n-air. Since Pikachu is light, he can die early from Luigi's smash attacks, throws, Jump punch, and set-ups. For the QA, never give Luigi any landing lag for him to punish with a grab or the deadly jump punch so if you mess up, then expect to get punished hard. Luigi can't edgeguard Pikachu much, but up smash, SH back-air, and N-air can beat his QA if he gets caught with them. As fighting against Luigi up-close, he wins in close combat because he can rack up damage better with his jabs, down throw combos, SH air attacks, and smash attacks and Pikachu is gonna have to keep him out of his face with his speed, QAs, thunder jolts, spaced tiles and SH f-airs, and n-airs to get the damage on the man in green.

If I'm missing anything, please let me know.

How does pikachu fair against Luigi?
 
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hell-dew

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 27, 2009
Messages
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Ontario
Comboing luigi is risky you can hit him with upairs be wary of Nair so watch your spacing like crazy

he can also kill us around 80 with Rage with Nado off a grab

Dont spam quick attack against him cause he can nair it and technically nado it as well as upsmash

Luigi will auto ban smashvile against us if he doesnt hes dumb and just camp him play it like brawl ICs he has little business winning.

recovering against him isnt free at all either cause if you skull bash your gonna get spiked if your QA your extended dumb QA hitboxes can he hit by attacks people just suck at fighting pika and dont realize how abuseable that is if he nados or Nairs he can catch us dont be caught off guard.

also last time i was testing it it felt like absolutely nothing was safe on powershield outside of maybe nair and the luigi can technically dash grab you before that in terms of openings so yeah nothing is really safe on that dude it becomes a guessing game but i feel like he has way harder punishes then we do (cause his nair makes him so damn hard to combo)

Edge guarding him actually sucks because i dont think we have a move to beat out his up B and nado. Nado is wack its tough to challenge you can use upair (which knocks him up) and Dair (which has slow startup) seam to be able to beat nado where as Nair bodies his Side B (although misfire can kill you) but technically luigi shouldn't have to EVER side B if they save a jump unless they end up way to low which normally they shouldnt outside of a mistake. and Up B has the priority of every single one of the coins meaning we have no moves to beat it if out hit boxes clash which royally sucks because out moves aren't terribly disjointed

basically if a luigi saves his jump he can nado way above the stage to safety (yes you can thunder and yes he can just DI away on teh second hit if it spikes so you can maybe nail him with the Non spike hitbox) if you cover above the stage he can just go to the ledge. if you attack him off stage he can nado at you or around you. basically good luigis have a fair number of options to recover and while i havent been able to heavily lab it ive had little luck outside of hard reads in edge guarding him so if anyones got some VOD of this i would appreciate it

after playing this MU a fair bit with poke this MU is brutal i feel like we lose it but i want to refine some of the finer points of it though
 

Underhill

Smash Ace
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
832
NNID
Chase47
Comboing luigi is risky you can hit him with upairs be wary of Nair so watch your spacing like crazy

he can also kill us around 80 with Rage with Nado off a grab

Dont spam quick attack against him cause he can nair it and technically nado it as well as upsmash

Luigi will auto ban smashvile against us if he doesnt hes dumb and just camp him play it like brawl ICs he has little business winning.

recovering against him isnt free at all either cause if you skull bash your gonna get spiked if your QA your extended dumb QA hitboxes can he hit by attacks people just suck at fighting pika and dont realize how abuseable that is if he nados or Nairs he can catch us dont be caught off guard.

also last time i was testing it it felt like absolutely nothing was safe on powershield outside of maybe nair and the luigi can technically dash grab you before that in terms of openings so yeah nothing is really safe on that dude it becomes a guessing game but i feel like he has way harder punishes then we do (cause his nair makes him so damn hard to combo)

Edge guarding him actually sucks because i dont think we have a move to beat out his up B and nado. Nado is wack its tough to challenge you can use upair (which knocks him up) and Dair (which has slow startup) seam to be able to beat nado where as Nair bodies his Side B (although misfire can kill you) but technically luigi shouldn't have to EVER side B if they save a jump unless they end up way to low which normally they shouldnt outside of a mistake. and Up B has the priority of every single one of the coins meaning we have no moves to beat it if out hit boxes clash which royally sucks because out moves aren't terribly disjointed

basically if a luigi saves his jump he can nado way above the stage to safety (yes you can thunder and yes he can just DI away on teh second hit if it spikes so you can maybe nail him with the Non spike hitbox) if you cover above the stage he can just go to the ledge. if you attack him off stage he can nado at you or around you. basically good luigis have a fair number of options to recover and while i havent been able to heavily lab it ive had little luck outside of hard reads in edge guarding him so if anyones got some VOD of this i would appreciate it

after playing this MU a fair bit with poke this MU is brutal i feel like we lose it but i want to refine some of the finer points of it though
Good explaination. Your experience with the MU is better than mine. If I could find some good Plkachu players to go up against, I may be able to explain the MU alittle better, but no big deal. I fought a Plkachu player who match my skill and decent ones, but not enough to gain some good experience on the MU on Smash Ladder.
 

Equi

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Messages
767
I'd like to add that snap nair out of shield (after you run up shield) beats a few of Luigi's aerial options like nair and fair if you do it fast enough. It works well in this matchup. But yeah against Luigi/Mario you are forced to play a smart bait reaction game. You have to take it one hit at a time and avoid the temptation to overextend your combos since trades benefit Luigi in this matchup

Could someone do a writeup on Wario plox? Really good Wario player in my area that's been the bane of my existence and I can't seem to beat him with Pika although I've taken games
 
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