Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[~Radiance~]

I figured the shield changes would be good for pika. I was discussing with
Some of norcals pr about qa on shield and how relatively safe it is, especially with new shield changes. Prime, what is your opinion on qa on shields now, especially when used to position behind an opponent. Seems pretty safe, dunno if any oos options will punish us or not but looking at your data seems to imply its not safe

 

[M15t3R E]

I've been doing a lot of AC fair/dair perfect pivoted f-smashes (fancy I know) and it is so mindbogglingly safe now! Even on the off chance it hits shield they can't punish it. This is great news!

 

[~Radiance~]

Yea fsmash was already fairly safe when spaced properly, now it's really good. Ac fair and dair are amazing I agree. I'm really wanting to see how qa feels in terms of safety. So hard to get used to using qa offensively since in brawl it was not good to use it that way lol. Also heya mister e, it's FZ. We hung at APEX 2010, I made all the headbands haha

 

[Soul.]

This patch is hilarious. What wasn't safe is safe now.
Due to the changes to electric hitlag I guess we can do blockstrings with electric hitboxes.

 

[~Radiance~]

What changes to electric hit lag were there, I was only aware of shield stun changes. Also what do you mean by blockstrings?

 

[Soul.]

Last time I read, the shield hitlag used to not match the hitlag of the move. 1.1.1 has normalized this and as a result, it makes high hitlag moves (such as electric ones) safer on shield

More info here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-enigmatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-19#post-20225691

also

A block string is a string of linkable attacks that are blocked. The opponent is forced to block during the entire duration of the block string, or else will be hit.

Since electric moves are way safer now, I was wondering how we could take advantage of block strings. Hence why I said it.

 

[Coro_]

What changes to electric hit lag were there, I was only aware of shield stun changes. Also what do you mean by blockstrings?

A blockstring is a string of attacks that the opponent is forced to keep blocking, staying in shield for the whole sequence.

EDIT: grenininja'd =w=;

 

[~Radiance~]

I've been playing since brawl, and was PR'd, and had never heard of the term blockstrings lol. Interesting tho, electric attacks being safer on shield is good news, especially since we already have very safe moves. Happy day since I love ac dair.

 

[Angiance]

Just how effective is Falling F.Air (spaced) > D.Tilt on shield, given the current change?

 

[~Radiance~]

I don't think it's safe unless the person has awful grab range and whiffs it, grab oos still comes out fast enough to punish us unless it's someone with a bad tether or slow grab speed

 

[Angiance]

You can actually move back as your make contact with a shield and land very far away, it's a new trait to some multihit attacks is they cause you to land super far away from where you are in the air

Ex. Falco's F.Air

 

[Armistice]

I'm sure this has been talked about earlier in the thread but just for clarification:

FF Fair is still unsafe on shield yes?

 

[Soul.]

It's like 2-3 frames safer but still pretty unsafe, yes. Or at least, from what I have seen.

 

[M15t3R E]

It's still pretty unsafe but should be used over the course of the game to gauge their response as it can be quite rewarding. You can fair (no fast fall) and move backwards as you do it and easily land outside of their attack or grab range and follow up with a f-smash to their face if they are aggressive. An auto-cancel dair cross-up can substitute for the fair as well. You'd be surprised how often this catches people off-guard.

 

[Angiance]

For shield pressure, I highly recommend Falling F.Air (away) > D.Tilt

 

[M15t3R E]

For shield pressure, I highly recommend Falling F.Air (away) > D.Tilt

And at slightly higher percents, FF fair -> f-tilt is a great but underused option.

 

[Angiance]

I don't recommend F.Tilt on shield honestly, but I use Falling F.Air > F.Tilt (upwards) frequently at higher percents

 

[iVoltage]

So has anyone else been practicing the sick offstage thunder gimps esam does all the time? Honestly they are flashy and do well to close stocks if you can land it. On that note what are some better setups than like dash attack > ff thunder, or lime bthrow (which barely works)

 

[Thor]

So has anyone else been practicing the sick offstage thunder gimps esam does all the time? Honestly they are flashy and do well to close stocks if you can land it. On that note what are some better setups than like dash attack > ff thunder, or lime bthrow (which barely works)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXHH9kCiBbU&t=4m
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fITUpPg9A4s&t=1m48s [watch for 10 seconds]

These are both a bit old, I've gotten better [I think?]

Anyone want to discuss the MK MU? Way back, ESAM said something along the lines of "Well MK is worse and Pika is better so we win", but... MK received a plethora of buffs since then, and with lethal uair combos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfc0uSDT3aE [wrong character, same idea], I'm wondering how things look now.

(Incidentally, how does one DI that? Does one DI in front or behind of MK, or is it more like just DIing to fall out of the side? Do we hold up to pop up earlier and try to get out quicker, or just DI and SDI sideways like crazy [in the aforementioned direction] and hope for the best?)

 

[iVoltage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXHH9kCiBbU&t=4m
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fITUpPg9A4s&t=1m48s [watch for 10 seconds]

These are both a bit old, I've gotten better [I think?]

Anyone want to discuss the MK MU? Way back, ESAM said something along the lines of "Well MK is worse and Pika is better so we win", but... MK received a plethora of buffs since then, and with lethal uair combos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfc0uSDT3aE [wrong character, same idea], I'm wondering how things look now.

(Incidentally, how does one DI that? Does one DI in front or behind of MK, or is it more like just DIing to fall out of the side? Do we hold up to pop up earlier and try to get out quicker, or just DI and SDI sideways like crazy [in the aforementioned direction] and hope for the best?)

I think I know why I was missing the thunder spike, I was doing it to late trying to get lower.

About the mk mu, the main things you HAVE to avoid to win this mu is dash attack and dash grab. These are what lead i to mk's bread n butter combos. Mk has one of the if not the best punish games in sm4sh so try not to use risky moves if they won't hit since you will more than likely loose a stock. That's just basic though haha

 

[Angiance]

MK loses to us; end of story

 

[Soul.]

MK is something I'd call even but over time it'll become slightly in his favor. I would assume this because he has something we don't have... reliable kill confirms.

He's benefited from this patch too (FAir is safe when spaced well; fsmash is now apparently +3 on shield? Dunno about the rest)

I mean we have the typical Pikachu stuff but I'm just not feeling the win on our side. Hopefully I'm wrong lol.

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm not going to say who wins the match-up, but MK is probably one of the better characters against Pikachu. He can punish a lot of things Pikachu does that most other characters can't and when he does it can lead to death. You need to be really careful about throwing out attacks and using QA against him.

 

[Thor]

Glad to see there's some disagreement on this...

Again, I'm asking because when ESAM first said we beat MK like 6:4 or whatever, the uair combos into up+b weren't widely spread, and MK still had sword trails that didn't match his hitboxes [too big], so he had serious drawbacks, but the drawbacks are mostly gone and people know about his amazing punish potential... personally, when I play the MU, it feels like a game of "Guess whether he rolls, does dash attack, or does dash grab, and never be too complacent lest random fsmash hit you", and it's tedious at best, downright awful and infuriating to play at its worst.

If we could figure out when dthrow can actually convert into up+B or uair strings it would help, because I'm pretty sure at high enough percents dthrow -> up+b stops working, making shield a lot safer than earlier on when he has dthrow usmash or dthrow dash attack.

MK is something I'd call even but over time it'll become slightly in his favor. I would assume this because he has something we don't have... reliable kill confirms.

He's benefited from this patch too (FAir is safe when spaced well; fsmash is now apparently +3 on shield? Dunno about the rest)

I mean we have the typical Pikachu stuff but I'm just not feeling the win on our side. Hopefully I'm wrong lol.

By all means show me the numbers that say I'm wrong, but if fair is 3 damage fresh and has 20 frames of landing lag, with our dash attack being frame 6, his fair having 3/1.75+ 2 = 3 frames of shieldstun [call it 4 for sake of argument], 20-4 = 16 - 7 = 9 actionable frames after shielddrop, and with dash attack lunging forward, shouldn't we be able to just dash attack it out of shield if we're quick? Or does that not reach?

If it doesn't, we still have a 50-50 with dash grab and him having to pick a defensive option [roll, spotdodge[ that we could theoretically cover with usmash, but still... ick [and dash attack oos is hardly easy to get that quickly either...].

 

[Angiance]

His "combo" into Shuttle Loop isn't actually 100%, you can just DI away and then he'll have to read you into it-which even then you can just DI high and avoid the second hit

We're better than he is becauss we outright obliterate him in certain areas-like, we can get much more from our comboes and frame advantages than he can, and we're much better offstage than he is

 

[Soul.]

Glad to see there's some disagreement on this...

Again, I'm asking because when ESAM first said we beat MK like 6:4 or whatever, the uair combos into up+b weren't widely spread, and MK still had sword trails that didn't match his hitboxes [too big], so he had serious drawbacks, but the drawbacks are mostly gone and people know about his amazing punish potential... personally, when I play the MU, it feels like a game of "Guess whether he rolls, does dash attack, or does dash grab, and never be too complacent lest random fsmash hit you", and it's tedious at best, downright awful and infuriating to play at its worst.

If we could figure out when dthrow can actually convert into up+B or uair strings it would help, because I'm pretty sure at high enough percents dthrow -> up+b stops working, making shield a lot safer than earlier on when he has dthrow usmash or dthrow dash attack.



By all means show me the numbers that say I'm wrong, but if fair is 3 damage fresh and has 20 frames of landing lag, with our dash attack being frame 6, his fair having 3/1.75+ 2 = 3 frames of shieldstun [call it 4 for sake of argument], 20-4 = 16 - 7 = 9 actionable frames after shielddrop, and with dash attack lunging forward, shouldn't we be able to just dash attack it out of shield if we're quick? Or does that not reach?

If it doesn't, we still have a 50-50 with dash grab and him having to pick a defensive option [roll, spotdodge[ that we could theoretically cover with usmash, but still... ick [and dash attack oos is hardly easy to get that quickly either...].

http://smashboards.com/threads/patch-1-1-1.418796/#post-20222266
This is by far the most accurate chart, unless someone else did one but I doubt it.

His forward air does 4 frames of shield stun. When spaced well it allows him to avoid a dash grab and punish with his own or something; perhaps dash attack to confirm to a million up air combos. There's a gif of a 'safe' FAir to dash grab on Ness, but since we're talking about Pika it'd be different (perhaps?). I honestly don't think it should be that different.

Also about our dash attack, it probably can but I don't want to say it does, as it needs further testing. Has someone done that on training?

 

[Thor]

http://smashboards.com/threads/patch-1-1-1.418796/#post-20222266
This is by far the most accurate chart, unless someone else did one but I doubt it.

His forward air does 4 frames of shield stun. When spaced well it allows him to avoid a dash grab and punish with his own or something; perhaps dash attack to confirm to a million up air combos. There's a gif of a 'safe' FAir to dash grab on Ness, but since we're talking about Pika it'd be different (perhaps?). I honestly don't think it should be that different.

Also about our dash attack, it probably can but I don't want to say it does, as it needs further testing. Has someone done that on training?

The post you just linked has some flaws, unless the Meta thread on Shields is outdated. It assumes damage/1.8 +3, and it's been shown to be damage/1.75 + 2 [actually it might /1.72, as discussed in the thread, but it's apparently +2, not +3].The other flaw with that chart is that it assumes 10 frames for shield drop lag, not 7 frames. Unless there was some post in this thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/ ) that indicates 10 frames of shield drop lag and the OP wasn't updated, it's 7 frames. Meaning we have 4-> 3 and 10 ->7 = 1 + 3 = 4 bonus of frames of punishabilty on fair, pushing it to -10 on shield... so if we can dash for 2-4 frames [or 1 frame for weak dash attack] and reach MK, MK can be punished with dash attack. If we do dash for 1 or 2 frames and grab, we could punish with grab [and we have one bonus frame on grab with spotdodge being active frame 2]. The only question is if it reaches.

[All that said, doing a frame perfect dash attack out of shield would be very difficult regardless, so it's functionally safe, but it makes me curious if the move is truly safe or if one could go all-in frame-perfect or die dash attack if you're at 150, he's at 60, and Delfino is transitioning while you're on the top platform... and keep in mind, if they don't vertically space correctly, it is less safe than implied above as well, but I'm curious if this is 100% punishable or not.]

 

[Soul.]

Oh, my bad. Frame knowledge is a bit off lol. I was aware of its inconsistency, but it was the only one I could find.
So to make this clear, his fsmash is +2?

 

[Megamang]

Does anyone here utilize ledge trumps? I would like to make my opponent a little more rushed on the ledge (part of my desire to land more early kills), but I'm unsure of how to actually capitalize on a successful trump. Like, some characters get a guaranteed bair that kills really early, but i dont land anything after a trump. Smash input skull bash? As it is right now, i just tjolt to get them off the ledge, but if pika had a deadly trump that would be great for my gameplan.

Speaking of which, does anyone have usages for skull bash besides recovery? Ive been holding down to prevent ledge snaps and hitting overzealous edgeguarders.


For contribution, id like to say dtilt into utilt can cover get up attacks, regular getups, and ledgerolls. This leaves SH dair for ledge jumps, which is great because of dairs terrible, evil knockback angle.

Of course, rapid jabbing at the ledge is nice for low commitment, as it causes ledge denials which leads into a dropzone fair or dair or bair or nair (god damn pikas aerials are good) stage spike.

 

[Angiance]

Megamang
Actually, we don't really have anything we can do like that because nothing can reach back far enough like Falcon's B.Air.

Skullbash can be fun to try and use as a landing trap if you're wanting to be silly-but it's strictly a recovery move in any other sense, ESPECIALLY since it's knockback was decreased so badly that it can't even KO from a full charge unless they're around the edge and at high percent...

D.Tilt/U.Air/U.Tilt are all SUPER damned good for frame traps

 

[Gibbs]

So Thor these are my thoughts on the MK matchup.

Punish Game - This aspect of the match-up MK has a +1 advantage in simply because of his silly kill strings. Pika does get very strong strings and combos on him due to his fall speed and weight however, so getting touched matters a lot in this match-up.

Neutral - Pika has a +2 advantage in neutral pretty easily. Even with the new shield mechanics, and his great aerial frame data, I think MK should be scared to try and jump in on Pika. Pika's ability to maintain and take stage position is just greater than MK. AC dair and fair are better zoning tools than anything in MK's kit, and he has no real answer to t-jolt. Sure MK bair, fair and nair all are pretty good anti QA tools, but they really require a read on the MKs part. Overall this is a matchup where pika is at advantage from mid and far spacings. I think MK's frame data and itty bitty disjoint gives him a slight advantage in super close range, but it's nowhere near as annoying disadvantaged as the Luigi matchup.

Offstage - MK +.5 here. I think his edge gaurding is more potent than pika, and even though his recovery is more linear than ours, you gotta love the multiple jumps. Also shuttle loop should scare anyone who tries to edgegaurd him.

How stage picks effect this matchup is a little bit of a mystery to me. There isn't really a legal stage where pika really has to be more afraid of MK than any other, I say CP to your comfort.

I think pika's advantage in neutral over MK is more easily converted to a win than MK's slight punish and offstage advantages. With QA to get away, we simply don't really have to play MK's footsie and bait and punish game. The MK player can't afford to drop any punishes or to concede positional or life/stock advantages. The pika player can do both those things and still have a good shot at winning.

 

[Thor]

So Thor these are my thoughts on the MK matchup.

Punish Game - This aspect of the match-up MK has a +1 advantage in simply because of his silly kill strings. Pika does get very strong strings and combos on him due to his fall speed and weight however, so getting touched matters a lot in this match-up.

Neutral - Pika has a +2 advantage in neutral pretty easily. Even with the new shield mechanics, and his great aerial frame data, I think MK should be scared to try and jump in on Pika. Pika's ability to maintain and take stage position is just greater than MK. AC dair and fair are better zoning tools than anything in MK's kit, and he has no real answer to t-jolt. Sure MK bair, fair and nair all are pretty good anti QA tools, but they really require a read on the MKs part. Overall this is a matchup where pika is at advantage from mid and far spacings. I think MK's frame data and itty bitty disjoint gives him a slight advantage in super close range, but it's nowhere near as annoying disadvantaged as the Luigi matchup.

Offstage - MK +.5 here. I think his edge gaurding is more potent than pika, and even though his recovery is more linear than ours, you gotta love the multiple jumps. Also shuttle loop should scare anyone who tries to edgegaurd him.

How stage picks effect this matchup is a little bit of a mystery to me. There isn't really a legal stage where pika really has to be more afraid of MK than any other, I say CP to your comfort.

I think pika's advantage in neutral over MK is more easily converted to a win than MK's slight punish and offstage advantages. With QA to get away, we simply don't really have to play MK's footsie and bait and punish game. The MK player can't afford to drop any punishes or to concede positional or life/stock advantages. The pika player can do both those things and still have a good shot at winning.

I don't think neutral is as free as you make it sound... MK is really fast and can sorta just ignore t-jolt [run in at it, powershield, move on... and he has powershield up+b to keep us from getting too grab-happy]. I also feel like they're a lot more even at mid-range, since his ftilt is still a solid move. I don't have issues with MKs who jump in... I have issues with ones who almost never leave the ground except to uair or up+b you.

In any case, it seems that it's about even, although you think it swings in favor of Pikachu.

 

[Gibbs]

I don't think neutral is as free as you make it sound... MK is really fast and can sorta just ignore t-jolt [run in at it, powershield, move on... and he has powershield up+b to keep us from getting too grab-happy]. I also feel like they're a lot more even at mid-range, since his ftilt is still a solid move. I don't have issues with MKs who jump in... I have issues with ones who almost never leave the ground except to uair or up+b you.

In any case, it seems that it's about even, although you think it swings in favor of Pikachu.

MK's foxtrot and PP are kind of garbage, so while he is faster on the ground than Pika, he has no way to take space or micro space other than committing to a run. Sure t-jolt is punishable if used in the mid range, but from a platform or most of FD away it will still be safe, perfect shield or not. Also mid range empty jump and fsmash are great against MK in neutral.

 

[Thor]

MK's foxtrot and PP are kind of garbage, so while he is faster on the ground than Pika, he has no way to take space or micro space other than committing to a run. Sure t-jolt is punishable if used in the mid range, but from a platform or most of FD away it will still be safe, perfect shield or not. Also mid range empty jump and fsmash are great against MK in neutral.

I'm sort of used to MK doing a run into shield or a jump [the MKs I know dash/pivot grab rather frequently], but I'll keep it in mind.

 

[busken]

How do you guys think Pika does against Greninja, Diddy, Marth, and Yoshi?

 

[Pikabunz]

You guys should contribute to this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-chart-project-2015-calling-pikachu-mains.422752

 

[Underhill]

How do you guys feel about the match-up against Marth as Pikachu? I know its in Pikachu's favor and not like Brawl and melee, but it can be annoying for Pikachu sometimes because of Marth's range and f-airs.

 

[Megamang]

Its pretty close until you start abusing your specials. Tjolt hurts him a lot, as his zoning is better than his approach. Shielding and tjolting a lot to rack damage is nice, as marth doesn't have grab followups. Also, stuff that would be safe can be surprise punished with quick attack OOS.

Solid advantage for pika, with a gannon asterick since marf can kill you at 50, never count him out and play very smart around those things.

 

[Angiance]

Don't rely on T.Jolt against Marth, it'll get you annihilated.

What you need to do is not really be afraid of that range and keep in mind that we can outspeed him. His sh F.Air has a large gap as he is falling down; Dancing Blade has gaps in between each slash, but the down variation can be used as a great fakeout since after it Marth moves himself back a surprising distance.

He only has a single KO setup, and it's Jab 1 > F.Smash, but you can just jump away after Jab 1, outside if that he literally can't KO you unless you let him.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, not sure where I should post in this sub-forum, but the Olimar sub-forum is discussing the Pikachu MU. Any input is appreciated.