Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[ShadowKing]

So what character is the matchup where talking abouy

 

[Soul.]

We really aren't talking about anything at the moment. I'd figure we talk about the top [tier] characters for a while, but I dunno. We kinda need to organize this.

 

[Felth]

I invite you to read this PDF and its already finished. It's a summary of the posts discussed in the Match up Thread. I'm writting this document using a special compilator called TeX. Thanks to Umbreoff to write the word version of this document.
I'll write a PDF version using the same template with the corresponding Theory developed in the Specific Match up posts for each Character.

 

[Pedrosupersmashbrosfan]

I think I have useful info on the Mario Matchup.First, as a pikachu main, you gotta know that now, mario is much better than in Brawl. Second, he has good combo ability, so watch out for that. Anyway, I think that you should use Pikachu's specials attacks more than his smashes, cause mario has equally good smashes(if not slightly better).Also, take advantage of pikachu's better recovery, edgeguarding, and damage output in comparision to Mario's.
Mario's moves to watch out:down-B:It's one of his most dangerous moves in his moveset. Seriously, you do not want to get hit with this move.
his smashes in general.
matchup analysis:60:40 in Pikachu's favour.

 

[M15t3R E]

I think I have useful info on the Mario Matchup.First, as a pikachu main, you gotta know that now, mario is much better than in Brawl. Second, he has good combo ability, so watch out for that. Anyway, I think that you should use Pikachu's specials attacks more than his smashes, cause mario has equally good smashes(if not slightly better).Also, take advantage of pikachu's better recovery, edgeguarding, and damage output in comparision to Mario's.
Mario's moves to watch out:down-B:It's one of his most dangerous moves in his moveset. Seriously, you do not want to get hit with this move.
his smashes in general.
matchup analysis:60:40 in Pikachu's favour.

Approaching both Mario bros by ground seems to be the only way to do business against them. Can't even approach Mario with thunder jolt. It gets caped 95% of the time.

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Pikachu mains. The Marth boards have begun discussion on the Pikachu matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth player for matchup knowledge, please join us.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-pikachu-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.415339/

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Hello Pikachu boards. the Zeldas have invited you over for tea and we do hope you'll attend our open invitation http://smashboards.com/threads/a-li...scussion-pikachu.384490/page-22#post-20000193

 

[Solutionme]

Better neutral and edgeguarding than ZSS, quick attack pretty much does everything with platforms and without them is still really good for camping and spamming, which shuts down other characters. Still combos about as well as ZSS but not as well as Sheik, who also has a safer recovery than Pika along with bouncing fish being an alternative recovery. Her needles also shut down other characters. Back air when landing with it is a pseudo-crouch and also acts as a strong edgeguard, along with his thunder, quick attack and thunder jolts adding the to the variation. Better kill power than Sheik but worse than ZSS and doesn't have as good frame traps as Sheik or ZSS.

So for top 3 it goes like this:
-Sheik
-Pikachu
-ZSS

Just my thoughts, I'd like input.

Edit: Someone moved this, thanks, I never check those threads on top sadly, which is always a mistake.

 

[Pikabunz]

That's where most players put Pikachu. Pikachu having better kill power than Sheik is arguable. In the air, Sheik kills better, but on the ground Pikachu kills better. Sheik's kill set-ups from a grab are better than Pikachu's uthrow thunder. Also, Sheik can get her kills much safer than Pikachu. So I'd say Sheik is a little better at killing than Pikachu.

 

[Solutionme]

That's where most players put Pikachu. Pikachu having better kill power than Sheik is arguable. In the air, Sheik kills better, but on the ground Pikachu kills better. Sheik's kill set-ups from a grab are better than Pikachu's uthrow thunder. Also, Sheik can get her kills much safer than Pikachu. So I'd say Sheik is a little better at killing than Pikachu.

It also seems about right, if ZSS had a better neutral then maybe she could be 2nd, but she doesn't. In terms of Sheik and Pikachu's kill potential, it's close to even, but the reasoning behind me saying Pikachu has better kill power is because his smash attacks are stronger and so are his edgeguards. It's just that Sheik is so safe and has stronger combos that Pikachu can't beat her in tier list position. But in the air Sheik for sure kills harder.

 

[Megamang]

So, is anyone else dairing a lot more after watching ESAM's video on "priority"? I find it to almost always trade if I FF it, even trading with MK's u-air and shiek's bair if she tries to anti-air with it.


Everyone should learn the timing to cancel dairs from the sky, not just short hops. Its very good.


Also, anyone else feel like Tjolts are one of if not the best projectile, and are essential to pika's game? Its the only way I get around his range issue, but it is quite good at that...

 

[M15t3R E]

D-air has been overshadowed in every game by his other aerials but it has its niche as a mix-up especially as a cross-up against players who prefer to use a grounded attack style. It can intercept some characters in the air but you must be aware of who you are facing. I don't know how it would turn out challenging a competent Sheik's u-air with Pikachu's d-air. Never tried.
Yes, t-jolt is great for coverage while approaching but don't abuse it. It also works to zone back and forth and pounce when ready.

 

[Angiance]

D.Air is okay: it's startup is lengthy, however, which gives the opponent a good window to counter space it.

I do not believe T.Jolt is as great as people say. T.Jolt has a very large startup, which gives the opponent a very large window to counter it; however, if you setup for T.Jolt (F.Throw > T.Jolt, for example) it is magnifcant.

 

[Solutionme]

D.Air is okay: it's startup is lengthy, however, which gives the opponent a good window to counter space it.

I do not believe T.Jolt is as great as people say. T.Jolt has a very large startup, which gives the opponent a very large window to counter it; however, if you setup for T.Jolt (F.Throw > T.Jolt, for example) it is magnifcant.

That's at a low percent right? If I understand correctly it means that they're forced to jump otherwise they will induce a high damage combo right?

 

[Gibbs]

One thing I've noticed ESAM doing a lot of recently is going for AC dair after jab locks at mid percent. The angle is perfect to force another tech scenario and I've seen tons of pretty skilled people on his stream miss the second tech either cause wifi, or because they were expecting to get fsmash'd.

While I agree that dair is a little bit of a niche tool, I think in a lot of match-ups it gets more utility than fair or nair. The angle it sends the opponent at is godlike, and the base 12% dmg it does is nothing to sneeze at.

@ Angiance I was pretty down on t-jolt too until recently. It seems pretty meh when compared to say needles or luigi's fireball can confirm into a kill. That was until I started thinking of it not just as a tool to control space and bait sheild or jump, but in terms of damage. It does 6% un-staled and grounded. Even if you ignore all it's utility in recovery, gimping, and covering movement in neutral, this move is still godlike.

I used to look down on FG pika's who would camp with t-jolt and run away with QA. Now I'm starting to see the error in my ways. This game isn't really about swag combos and playing optimal footsies, but about making the other guys % go high enough to land a randy thunder, pivot fsmash, strong nair or ftilt to end the stock. For just racking on % safely, t-jolt is awesome.

 

[Angiance]

@ Solutionme
Since F.Throw launches at a good angle for many percents, it can be done for a while-I mean, anytime they're ascending in the air in front of you is a good time to T.Jolt since it will control the ground below them; of course, if they do not jump and get hit it's a very good combo starter, but even if they do jump it just gives us an advantage since they'll waste their air jump.

@ Gibbs
I have to disagree on that. F.Air is a lot more flexible since it has the lowest landing lag of all our aerials and also has the greatest amount of range compared to all of our other aerials; N.Air is our fastest aerial on startup and allows us to fight in a very aggressive manner thanks to being able to OoS it and autocancel it, but we can also setup really nasty frame traps with it's lingering hitbox.

As for T.Jolt: the opponent can react to the startup of T.Jolt and actually gain a ridiculous amount of stage over you, ESPECIALLY if they read it. Of course, as a person that specifcally studies Pikachu, I'm much more aware of how to completely counter it, but still...most pikachu will fh T.Jolt, so they'll rise all the up in the air and the jolt will not fire until they're at the peak of their fh, from that point T.Jolt falls at a specific angle and the pikachu will now not be able to act until they touch the ground; all of this is a giant window to react to and counter.

Honestly, the damage isn't even worth it given the above

 

[Pikabunz]

I just collected some shield advantage frame data. It shows how safe/punishable our moves are when we hit the opponents shield. These numbers may change depending on the staleness of the moves. Your opponent gets an extra +7 frame advantage if they're doing an OoS option.

fsmash 18% - 22
fsmash 12% - 21
fsmash 15% - 27
usmash 14% - 22
usmash 13% - 21
dsmash - 37
dtilt - 2
utilt back - 11
utilt front - 9
jab - 12
ftilt - 13
auto cancel dair - 10-22
dair landing - 26
bair landing - 16
ff fair - 8-11
QA2 - 21-23

 

[M15t3R E]

@ Solutionme
Honestly, the damage isn't even worth it given the above

I know you understand the utility of t-jolt. It's not primarily for racking up damage. It's for controlling the stage and your opponent. But yes, it's true that it can lose you stage control if used improperly.
Edit: Thanks K Prime!

 

[Coro_]

I found another legit player on For Glory! It was a scary JP player *brr*
He was playing Lucario and he brought some tech I haven't seen often that I think warrants discussion on the MU, to the extent I believe it may even be an even or disadvantageous matchup for Pika.
Can we open another thread for the Lucario matchup?

 

[Soul.]

Don't think there's a thread for the Lucario MU, but since it's starting to become more present in the metagame we could certainly make one for it.
I'm guessing he was doing Aura Sphere charge > usmash, in which case it's something Lucario mains are starting to use more often. Could be wrong but eh

 

[Coro_]

Created a thread, then~
Now that I look at it, it's just the usual high-level Lucario tech, nothing much really new. Still, I think not many people have seen Lucario, so I'll bring it to attention, I guess.

 

[Pikabunz]

I just found out that there's a certain spot you can thunder that covers both no di and di away when you uthrow>thunder. I'm thinking it only works on fatties though. I've only done it on DK so far.

 

[M15t3R E]

I just found out that there's a certain spot you can thunder that covers both no di and di away when you uthrow>thunder. I'm thinking it only works on fatties though. I've only done it on DK so far.

Does it appear like the bolt is even physically connecting with them? If not, either it works because they have disjointed hurtboxes or they are fatties. I'm guessing it only works at fairly high percents?

 

[Pikabunz]

 

[Megamang]

The amazingness of Tjolt isn't apparent in frame data alone. Its where the hitbox ends up. You are basically shutting down a small section of the stage, and if you do it safely, you are doing so with little risk and you can come in and destroy their response. You can also space it a little in front of you on a shield and then get a free grab since anything they use would be stuffed.

 

[Wintropy]

Pika pika! Pika pi!

I mean, er...

Electric rodents!

The Pit / Dark Pit board is currently discussing the Pikachu matchup, and we'd love your input!

Click here to go there!

While you're there, think you can help us kick-start the Lightning Chariot? It's been on the fritz since we crashed it a few weeks back...

 

[Emblem Lord]

If any pika players wanna throw downto learn the ryu match-up im down. not home now but will be home later tonight around 10pm. Midwest and East coast only. sorry my west coast brothers.

 

[Angiance]

The reason T.Jolt *isn't* that great is because during the startup and cooldown the opponent can gain stage against you, which defeats the purpose honestly-though, it's still a good attack to use if you setup for it

 

[Tito Maas]

Hey guys, the Pit boards are discussing the Pikachu matchup. Please come and contribute to our discussion; we'd like to have as much insight as possible!

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...n-sheik-zero-suit-samus-pikachu.414936/page-2

 

[Pikabunz]

I just collected some shield advantage frame data. It shows how safe/punishable our moves are when we hit the opponents shield. These numbers may change depending on the staleness of the moves. Your opponent gets an extra +7 frame advantage if they're doing an OoS option.

fsmash 18% - 22
fsmash 12% - 21
fsmash 15% - 27
usmash 14% - 22
usmash 13% - 21
dsmash - 37
dtilt - 2
utilt back - 11
utilt front - 9
jab - 12
ftilt - 13
auto cancel dair - 10-22
dair landing - 26
bair landing - 16
ff fair - 8-11
QA2 - 21-23

Shield advantage changes after the patch.

fsmash 18% - 22 > 11
fsmash 12% - 21 > 12
fsmash 15% - 27 > 16
usmash 14% - 22 > 17
usmash 13% - 21 > 18
dsmash - 37 > 32
dtilt - 2 > +1 for pika!
utilt back - 11 > 8
utilt front - 9 > 5
jab - 12 > 10
ftilt - 13 > 9
ftiltdown - 13 > 10
auto cancel dair - 10-22 > 1-13
dair landing - 26 > 20
bair landing - 16 > 13
autocanceled fair - +1 - 6
ff fair - 8-11 > 6-8
QA2 - 21-23 > 14-17

 

[Soul.]

Wait, down tilt is +1... we finally got frame advantage on shield?

 

[Kaladin]

So... What do we do with said frame advantage?

 

[Pikabunz]

Nothing!!!

 

[A10theHero]

So down tilt is still our best move against shields. And assuming our opponents don't have frame perfect reflexes, forward smash (18%), up tilt, jab, forward tilt, auto cancel dair and fastfall fair are also pretty good options. Alright, I'll take it. I'm excited to see what weird things we can pull off with this new development.

 

[iVoltage]

So what frame does sheild grab come out on?

 

[Megamang]

That depends on the character! They do get 7 more frames to work with since they bypass shield lock if they OOS option.

If i get a tether characters back to the ledge, i find dtilt into rapid jab is funnily effective due to ledge denial. If they aerial to punish and miss, dropzone aerials can kill easily.

 

[_Sylvan_]

+1 down tilt?? That changes A LOT!

also hai ESAM ~

 

[Pikabunz]

A perfectly auto-canceled fair is +1 (or -6 with oos) for Pikachu. This is almost as good as Sheik fair.

 

[iVoltage]

A perfectly auto-canceled fair is +1 (or -6 with oos) for Pikachu. This is almost as good as Sheik fair.

Pikachu is new sheik confirmed

 

[Umbreoff]

How do the matchups vs. Ryu, Little Mac, and Luigi change given the recent patch? Ryu and Little Mac can already challenge shield quite a bit, but they can challenge it even more given the increased shield stun.