Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[jmjb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KvOSWZ5gdc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6EGNVTujHk
I think it doesn't have been discovered yet, and it's probably true.

that's totally awesome, nice discovery, what % was DK at? and I'm assuming this is training mode so no rage factor?

 

[PlayNuff]

The DK was at 0% , and it wasn't in training mode but i didn't have rage.

 

[~Radiance~]

I'm sure this is old hat by now but: the reason camping jolts v Marth isn't that effective is because he can jab them and the jolt cancels out the jab animation so he can just walk with his amazing walk speed and jab all jolts. If you're ahead you can try camping jolts but you prob won't be able to do this effectively when behind. Jolts utility is that it has an arc pattern making it hard to pshield, but Marth dgaf

 

[Megamang]

I believe it was Shaya who went into depth about this somewhere in an old CCI thread, but that doesn't really work. In brawl, jabbing a projectile had almost no recoil and could allow him to slowly encroach on characters trying to zone. In smash 4, the jab has horrific lag when clanking out a projectile. It may not look like it from the pika side, but a character jabbing our tjolts is putting themselves at a huge frame disadvantage.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

There's a lot of talk in the BR tier list thread about pika's placement being inflated, and that pika is actually pretty meh in the current meta due to an increased favoritism to range and being able to land kills easily. There's other arguments against pika being so high tier going on there, worth having a look at.

What do you guys make of these arguments?

 

[A10theHero]

The results thing is a legitimate point. At the highest level of play, we only have ESAM and sometimes NAKAT. Pikachu is a pretty demanding character, so it's obvious that more people would choose other top/high tier characters who are easier to play.

Problems with range and killing aren't really much of problems, in my opinion. Part of the problem of having one person that everyone looks to in order to assess the character is that ESAM's flaws become Pikachu's flaws. Down Tilt is a great move with decent range, but ESAM has only recently incorporated it into his gameplay. With killing, he messes up Up Throw to Thunder quite a bit. ESAM is a pretty inconsistent player and so this inconsistency has become Pikachu's problem now as well.

Top players seem to regard Pikachu highly in spite of his actual performance. For whatever reason, they put a lot more emphasis on his theory than his results. Make what you will of that.

 

[A10theHero]

So I went into the CCI thread, and I read their posts on Pikachu.
You know, there's a point where when you keep saying he's overrated, you eventually start to underrate him.
Several things stated about the character were blatantly wrong, but never corrected. I might address them here later, but I'm a little busy right now and this isn't a super high priority for me--I care more about helping out other Pikachu mains here and a lot of the stuff I talk about in these threads directly goes against a lot of the claims they made about Pikachu.

 

[A10theHero]

ESAM posted his opinion on Pikachu's matchups:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Thoughts?

 

[Pikabunz]

ESAM is delusional

 

[A10theHero]

Apparently, nobody has really said that yet, lol

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Pikabunz]

Everyone is delusional.

I do agree with the characters that he put as the hardest except Villager. And I like that he uses real MU ratios instead of that +1 -1 garbage.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Wow, some of this is surprising, like Kirby being near even(yay)
Peach being legit even, what peach and Kirby has he fought?

 

[Pikabunz]

ESAM has lost to Slayerz' Peach. Don't know about Kirby though.

 

[w0ah]

I dont agree with Pika beating Luigi and Rosa should be 50:50

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Pikachu again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/413573/

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Lots of talk on the 4br tier list discussion about pikachu being overrated and not deserving of high tier status. Why is this happening now? I'm not one to take anything in videogames personally, but it is sort of aggravating to see so many false things being posted there, like how uthrow to thunder supposedly isn't a true combo...so many uninformed people on that post just circlejerking each other. Really weird.

 

[Soul.]

The competitive boards have been pessimistic about Pikachu since forever, maybe even as far as Brawl (lol). This is nothing new. Don't put too much thought into it though.

It's XY OU all over again lol. Kill confirms/safety are like Aegislash, and Smash Pikachu is like Starmie.

 

[A10theHero]

Welp, I posted there. I only did this for you, Shady.
Bros stick together.

 

[w0ah]

but it is sort of aggravating to see so many false things being posted there, like how uthrow to thunder supposedly isn't a true combo...

It's not exactly a true combo, Its possible to tech the landing and not get hit by the sweet spot of thunder.

 

[w0ah]

I'd like to mention that our Matchup list is lacking. It was last updated on October 15th and doesnt even have Ryu added to it.

 

[A10theHero]

It's not exactly a true combo, Its possible to tech the landing and not get hit by the sweet spot of thunder.

iirc, they can only tech it if you don't jump and perform the Thunder.

Spoiler

I'd like to mention that our Matchup list is lacking. It was last updated on October 15th and doesnt even have Ryu added to it.

A while back, I mentioned in the social thread possibly restarting the matchup threads. Nobody responded to that so I'm not sure how much traction it would get.

We still don't have threads for:


I was thinking about creating a schedule for matchup discussions, and I'll probably have it done during spring break.

 

[ClassicJono]

Found this out yesterday in a tourney match. For Bayonetta, if she Side b to the ledge from off stage, you can space out an F-smash and it has a good chance of hitting her because she won't instantly grab the ledge for invincibility. This probably won't work if she goes a little low. But it's a pretty good option anyway

 

[A10theHero]

Here's the schedule I was working on:
I tried to make it so each week, we would have a top tier, mid/high tier, and low tier character to discuss. I also tried to keep characters who were recently patched later rather than sooner.

Spoiler

March 27th to April 2nd: , , and
April 3rd to April 9th: , , and
April 10th to April 16th: , , and
April 17th to April 23rd: , , and
April 24th to April 30th: , , and
May 1st to May 7th: , , and
May 8th to May 14th: , , and
May 15th to May 21st: , , and
May 22nd to May 28th:, , and
May 29th to June 4th: , , and
June 5th to June 11th: , , , and
June 12th to June 18th: , , , and
June 19th to June 25th: , , , and
June 26th to July 2nd: , , , and
July 3rd to July 9th: , , , and
July 10th to July 16th: , , and
July 17th to July 23rd: , , and

A couple of things to note:
During the summer, I'm assuming people will have more free time, so I increased the number of matchups discussed from 3 to 4.
Patches are likely still going to occur throughout this schedule. Unless a character receives a major overhaul, much of the information stated will still be true. Anything relevant after patches can be added to the matchup threads of the already discussed character, even if we are not discussing the character that week.
Matchup threads will involve discussion of the following topics:

• Neutral
• Advantaged State
• Disadvantaged State
• Combo Ability
• Edgeguarding
• Killing
• Analysis of Top Level Matches (Not simply stating win records, but actually looking into some sets and seeing what the players did right and wrong. Along with that, this entails talking about what the options were in a given situation and if the opposing character had the tools to respond to the other choices. Stuff like that.)
• Quirks (ie. If Pikachu aims a Quick Attack towards the ground and hits Megaman's Crash Bomber when doing so, he slides across the stage, similar to his Super Wavedash in Melee)
• Anything else important that I may have forgotten to mention

Please note that this is all very tentative. Any suggestions are welcome, and I would love to hear feedback on this!
For this project to actually work out successfully, we need the support of everyone here.

 

[ClassicJono]

Okay, to be honest I've been having some trouble with this matchup lately, but I'm slowly improving on it.
Neutral
If you watch the matches below, ESAM likes to crawl back into the corner and use a down-tilt, stopping approaches such as spindash. However, the Sonic may do shield grab and will beat this option. If you see this coming you can go for a grab and I think you'll win. If you except a dash attack, you can shield and then use up-tilt to start a combo.

The interesting thing is that when Pika is in the corner, sonic can't rely on spindash. Sonic seems to have the most trouble when his opponent is at a far range or at a close range, where spindash is the least optimal option. This is kind of reflected in ESAM's play and he switches up from close range to the corner so that Sonic is in an unfavorable position.

You should be ready to shield incoming spin dashes at mid range, which is what they'll like to go for.
Also at the mid range, QA is a great tool to either get away or get in, in which I think will beat spin dash. Jumping behind sonic is an option that ESAM seemed to utilize as well.

At high percents, be a careful at the ledge as Pivot grabs will kill you.

Stages
Battlefield and Dreamland seem to the best stages against sonic.
Lylat is actually quite good for sonic, (well in my experience) as I think down-tilt wont cover as much range and sonic can get the F-smash of the ledge snap back to stage a little easier since it can take a longer time to snap to the ledges on Lylat than other stages.
Flat stages (FD and DH) are very good for sonic as he can just run around and you're forced to play his game.

Videos:
GENESIS 3 - Arcane|SeagullJoe (Sonic) vs PG|ESAM (Pikachu)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7xODbtrTQs

GENESIS 3 - ONI|Heero (Sonic) vs PG|ESAM (Pikachu)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I5RN_-4FeY

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matchup.

 

[TupacLives123]

Can someone give me some analysis on the Link matchup? There is this super campy Link in my region that I've been struggling against. I've tried to treat it like the villager matchup, where I run up and shield the projectiles and slowly make my way forward, and punish whenever they retreat, but to no avail. Any advice?

 

[TupacLives123]

Also having some troubles against Cloud. I find it very difficult to approach him, as short hop nair kind of negates most of my approaches. I do not have any trouble once I get in, but getting in is very difficult.

 

[A10theHero]

Here's the schedule I was working on:
I tried to make it so each week, we would have a top tier, mid/high tier, and low tier character to discuss. I also tried to keep characters who were recently patched later rather than sooner.

Spoiler

April 3rd to April 9th: , , and
April 10th to April 16th: , , and
April 17th to April 23rd: , , and
April 24th to April 30th: , , and
May 1st to May 7th: , , and
May 8th to May 14th: , , and
May 15th to May 21st: , , and
May 22nd to May 28th: , , and
May 29th to June 4th:, , and
June 5th to June 11th: , , and
June 12th to June 18th: , , , and
June 19th to June 25th: , , , and
June 26th to July 2nd: , , , and
July 3rd to July 9th: , , , and
July 10th to July 16th: , , , and
July 17th to July 23rd: , , and
July 24th to July 30th: , , and

A couple of things to note:
During the summer, I'm assuming people will have more free time, so I increased the number of matchups discussed from 3 to 4.
Patches are likely still going to occur throughout this schedule. Unless a character receives a major overhaul, much of the information stated will still be true. Anything relevant after patches can be added to the matchup threads of the already discussed character, even if we are not discussing the character that week.
Matchup threads will involve discussion of the following topics:

• Neutral
• Advantaged State
• Disadvantaged State
• Combo Ability
• Edgeguarding
• Killing
• Analysis of Top Level Matches (Not simply stating win records, but actually looking into some sets and seeing what the players did right and wrong. Along with that, this entails talking about what the options were in a given situation and if the opposing character had the tools to respond to the other choices. Stuff like that.)
• Quirks (ie. If Pikachu aims a Quick Attack towards the ground and hits Megaman's Crash Bomber when doing so, he slides across the stage, similar to his Super Wavedash in Melee)
• Anything else important that I may have forgotten to mention

Please note that this is all very tentative. Any suggestions are welcome, and I would love to hear feedback on this!
For this project to actually work out successfully, we need the support of everyone here.

In case anybody didn't noticed, I decided to wait a week to give more people a chance to see this and share their opinions. I definitely need Pikabunz 's opinion on the matter as well since he's the mod of this place. If all goes well, we'll start this tomorrow.

 

[Pikabunz]

In case anybody didn't noticed, I decided to wait a week to give more people a chance to see this and share their opinions. I definitely need Pikabunz 's opinion on the matter as well since he's the mod of this place. If all goes well, we'll start this tomorrow.

That schedule looks good to me. There might be a problem with getting people involved in match-up discussion though since this board is deadish. You can go ahead and make the thread for it now and see how it goes.

Sorry for the late response. I'm been focused on Pokken Tournament lately.

 

[A10theHero]

That schedule looks good to me. There might be a problem with getting people involved in match-up discussion though since this board is deadish. You can go ahead and make the thread for it now and see how it goes.

Yeah, I think I'm gonna also get help from the Discord group. That place is pretty active, so maybe that'll make things at least somewhat better.

Sorry for the late response. I'm been focused on Pokken Tournament lately.

It's fine. Pokken is very important too. I'm looking forward to your posts about it.

 

[Insightful]

How to deal with Roy, DK, & Greninja?

 

[Funkermonster]

How do I deal with your Uthrow to Thunder? Lost to a Pika today and a few days ago in bracket who pulled it off against me, I've heard a long time ago it isn't a legit combo and that Pika sucks at killing in general, but most of the time it felt like all I could do was air dodge and hopefully get lucky. I've consistently defeated said player before (around 7-8) times, but today he's finally caught up to me and I feel as though there's more to the MU that he's adapted to and I haven't.

I find myself dying from this and jab locks the most often, I feel that if I can learn how to avoid this I could potentially bounce back at him next time I have to play him. Any bonus advice from how to play the MU in general ( are who I play) would be nice too if you can, can't stand fighting this character, personally.

 

[A10theHero]

How do I deal with your Uthrow to Thunder? Lost to a Pika today and a few days ago in bracket who pulled it off against me, I've heard a long time ago it isn't a legit combo and that Pika sucks at killing in general, but most of the time it felt like all I could do was air dodge and hopefully get lucky. I've consistently defeated said player before (around 7-8) times, but today he's finally caught up to me and I feel as though there's more to the MU that he's adapted to and I haven't.

I find myself dying from this and jab locks the most often, I feel that if I can learn how to avoid this I could potentially bounce back at him next time I have to play him. Any bonus advice from how to play the MU in general ( are who I play) would be nice too if you can, can't stand fighting this character, personally.

Up Throw to Turnaround Thunder can be true on a DI read. I can confirm this from my labbing. It just depends on how quickly the player can input it and the percentage the opponent is at. Generally, mixing up your DI is a good idea. It's basically a 33-33-33 kill combo. Be wary of DIing behind Pikachu though. If the player does Down Throw instead of Up Throw as a mixup, DIing behind Pikachu will send you straight up (though DIing away will send you too far for a followup after a Down Throw).

I can't say much right now but with Greninja and Corrin, be careful about your commitments. Your goal is to keep Pikachu out of his ideal range (in your face), but if you keep attacking and jumping around, you leave yourself vulnerable during the recovery frames of your moves. This is where QA or some other move of Pikachu's can be used to punish you. So be mindful of your choices. With Greninja, if you can read the QA, nair and Up Smash are good at catching it. Hydro Pump can mess it up too. Corrin's charging forward smash can also catch QA. Nair does a great job at that as well. Be wary of edgeguarding as Corrin. This is where Pikachu has a clear advantage, so try and avoid being put into this vulnerable position when possible. If possible, try and time Corrin's up special so that the Pikachu's edgeguard attempt overlaps with the invincibility frames. Mixup with Dragon Lunge when possible. If you read a head-on assault from the Pikachu, a quick DFS would help. With Greninja, just be sure to mix it up as well. Don't always try to Shadow Sneak or always go for Hydro Pump. Water Shuriken can help stall a little or delay an incoming edgeguard. There's obviously much more to talk about than just Quick Attack and edgeguarding, but I can't do that right now. Maybe some other time.

 

[Knighto]

Can I get some pointers in the pika vs lucas MU? I always have a hard time getting in through his pk fire and zair. Is it just about timing my quick attacks, or is there some secret to it?

 

[lmntolp]

Can I get some pointers in the pika vs lucas MU? I always have a hard time getting in through his pk fire and zair. Is it just about timing my quick attacks, or is there some secret to it?

My brother mains Lucas and the best way I've found to counter PK fire is to run to Lucas and powershield it, then punish with an immediate dash attack or other fast move. Shield is great against Lucas in general because of tether grab and laggy aerial landings.

Lucas has a surprisingly good combo game and close up game in front of him, and zair discourages short hop spam. Because of that I either try to stay more than grab range away from his front side or get behind him if possible. Don't get too close behind him either, because his jab hits behind him. QA is good for this.

When you're under the Lucas, uair is superior to all of Lucas's aerials, so he has trouble landing. I've also caught a lot of landing aerials with fsmash because of its range and disjoint. Last thing is get to know how his tether works, because you can mess up Lucas's recovery if you can predict the tether and either hit him right before he does it or while he's swinging.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Can I get some pointers in the pika vs lucas MU? I always have a hard time getting in through his pk fire and zair. Is it just about timing my quick attacks, or is there some secret to it?

Imntolp explained neutral really good but don't forget about offstage. The more times you can get Lucas offstage the easier this MU becomes. The easiest way to get Lucas offstage is a throw after perfect blocking the pk Fire or snake, or once you get in his face use Dair. Dair has an very lateral launch angle and forces Lucas to use his double jump. Jab can be used at the edge to force Lucas to drop below if he doesn't air dodge. From their use a mix up of bair and Dair to gimp him.

Once offstage most Lucas's/ness's have a habit of immediately using their double jump to snap ledge, the key is to deny them ledge and make them use pk cannon. if you don't think you have time to punish the pk cannon throw a wall of thunder instead.

Your ability to force and to punish the pk cannon will determine the MU. If they snap the ledge consistently punish with quick attack to trump and bair or nair.