Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

[G13_Flux]

Maybe a lack of use of everything else zss had was what led to that conclusion?

Either way, I don't see how her grabs are bad. I mean, I've read here that they don't set up for tech reads appropriately, but I don't understand how other than that they can act before hitting the ground at higher percents. Is there something else I am missing?

Edit: I meant I din't see how her throws are bad...

they are bad relative to other characters throws because you are extremely limited in the amount of direct follow ups you can get from them. because of the angles, end lag, and KB values, the best thing you are going to be able to manage from her throws are tech chases, as well as some follow ups at very limited percents on a limited portion of the cast. so obviously, whereas other characters have bread and butter set ups from throws, ZSS's throws are relatively weak.

like has been said though, this was intended in order to encourage players to use her throws to generate positional advantage, and then use her high speed to chase down the opponent and corner them into a combo, which conceptually, i think is a great idea, as it indeed does separate ZSS from a lot of the cast in terms of how she gets her set ups, which allows the dev team to enhance other areas of her gameplay which further differentiate her.

that being said, i think with some tweaks here and there to compensate for over nerfing, she will be at a perfect state. things like nair might have been done in a bit over board, and could use re tuning to give it some balance between 3.5 and 3.02, and maybe a tad less endlag on uthrow, or some tweaks to other throws. some combination of minor tweaks like that would put 3.5 ZSS in a great position imo.

I am fine with the paralyzer the way it is. i think it actually promotes a more skillful use of her mobility and placement of it to get the full use (the use of which may not necessarily be in neutral either).

 

[InfinityCollision]

Dictates, no. Differentiates, yes. Paralyzer, grab, etc highlighted her mobility in unique ways and helped set her gameplan apart from others in the cast due to their respective ramifications in the different states of play. With her tools normalized, the overlap is more apparent - a local recently referred to her as "post-op Falcon with a gun" after a few rounds against my ZSS. I hadn't said a word to him about my thoughts on her changes, and as far as I know he doesn't play ZSS himself. It's not a perfect comparison for various reasons, but I think it carries well enough - her remaining differentiating traits come across more like variations on an established theme rather than something that would land her in more unique territory. It's a comparison I've actually heard several times of late (came up in the commentary of your recent match against Frootloop, coincidentally), along with some Sheik references mixed in regarding the way she plays a bit more passively due to poor approach options.

Obviously this is dealing with a lot of subjective/grey area material as far as how different is different "enough" to stand out, but the comparison has come up enough of late that I feel it's worth noting.

 

[Tagxy]

Im not going to argue with PMDT's new direction. If anything, the most upsetting aspect is how inconsistent it is (dash cancel laser is removed because it doesn't promote the interaction PMDT approves of, but shines not only still exist but are expanded to additonal characters?). Maybe there's an audience for this path, so who am I to judge. On a personal note, though Ive found PM 3.0 to not be as deep as melee (a statement Im sure even the PMDT wouldnt argue with), it was in a sense more fun. It seems now at the expense of the latter there's an attempt to turn PM into something that can be considered a true melee successor or perhaps even something superior.

I am going to summarize the alternative perspective with a couple good quotes

We have to work to keep things dynamic and not over-fine-tune the balance. If we aim for complete fairness, there won't be any personality to it.

Making a strong attack weaker can take away from the ‘good feeling’. By making adjustments that get rid of all advantages and disadvantages, it can turn a game into a mediocre one without any challenge.

Rather than directly weakening an attack’s advantageous parts, we’re putting effort into keeping them strong, while adding other weaknesses to them. Like giving the attacks punishable openings, or weakening the character’s mobility or recovery rate. We’re making comprehensive adjustments to characters, even for parts that might seem completely irrelevant.

it comes down to a quite simple process, where you give characters a special—something special that no other character has. A special technique. And at the same time, as that ratchets up their strength, you also have to take something away, so it becomes a sort of game of checks and balances where you're adding and removing.

So again, it's very important to have that system of checks and balances where if a character has some very strong point, you have to give him something weak. If a person really likes that character, and they want to have that special strength, they're going to have to sacrifice something to be able to take that weakness and create sort of a balance in that sense, where each character has something that certain people like.
-Sakurai

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wait, part of ZSS's design has always been a relatively poor grab game. Why is that suddenly a problem now?

So what if the implementation has been moved from the grab itself to the throws? You're still always guaranteed some damage, a positional advantage (which, as has been stated before, ZSS is good at capitalizing upon), and you still very likely have a followup of some kind or a tech chase.

I can understand being upset about the nair, but

like has been said though, this was intended in order to encourage players to use her throws to generate positional advantage, and then use her high speed to chase down the opponent and corner them into a combo, which conceptually, i think is a great idea, as it indeed does separate ZSS from a lot of the cast in terms of how she gets her set ups, which allows the dev team to enhance other areas of her gameplay which further differentiate her.

This actually articulated it pretty well.

 

[Foo]

Because the new grab is supposed to compensate for all of her bread and butter being removed, and it doesn't even work as intended. Dthrow is supposed to be a tech chase throw, but it doesn't even work. DI it properly, and you can avoid the follow up AND hitting the ground.

I can't think of a single character in the game with worse throws. If you DI the same direction every time as most of the cast past low%, all her throws just send the enemy away from ZSS. It doesn't really even matter which throw you use. I don't understand why it's fine for falcon to get guaranteed knee out of throw on most of the cast, occasional chain grabs, and guaranteed follow ups that can easily LEAD to knee, but ZSS doesn't even get to tech chase.

I'm fine with having positional throws, but I want them to at least work as such. Make upthrow actually keep them above you OR make upthrow actually link into upair and make downthrow an actual tech chase throw, and fthrow and bthrow are fine. Right now Dthrow is between a tech chase throw and a follow up throw, kind of like Falcon's and Sheik's, but they threw so much end lag onto it that it functions as neither.

 

[gmBottles]

Because the new grab is supposed to compensate for all of her bread and butter being removed, and it doesn't even work as intended. Dthrow is supposed to be a tech chase throw, but it doesn't even work. DI it properly, and you can avoid the follow up AND hitting the ground.

I can't think of a single character in the game with worse throws. If you DI the same direction every time as most of the cast past low%, all her throws just send the enemy away from ZSS. It doesn't really even matter which throw you use. I don't understand why it's fine for falcon to get guaranteed knee out of throw on most of the cast, occasional chain grabs, and guaranteed follow ups that can easily LEAD to knee, but ZSS doesn't even get to tech chase.

I'm fine with having positional throws, but I want them to at least work as such. Make upthrow actually keep them above you OR make upthrow actually link into upair and make downthrow an actual tech chase throw, and fthrow and bthrow are fine. Right now Dthrow is between a tech chase throw and a follow up throw, kind of like Falcon's and Sheik's, but they threw so much end lag onto it that it functions as neither.

I actually agree with this. A lot. The only issue I've had is not having follow-ups on the d-throw. I don't feel that u-throw is necessarily bad, but it could be better.

I can understand being upset about the nair

I actually really like the new nair. It's great for gimping. If you can get your enemy offstage, use nair to edgeguard. It sends them at an angle that makes it hard to recover, and you can up-b to grab ledge before they get to it.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

So her throws can't even be di traps? If they di away for down throw, we can't use back throw? Do her side throws send them too far?

 

[Legit]

So her throws can't even be di traps? If they di away for down throw, we can't use back throw? Do her side throws send them too far?

Her uthrow and dthrow are her potential combo throws, but by applying 1 type of DI (up and away from ZSS), you are safe from both throws. Back throw and forward throw can't be tech chased or followed up regardless of DI (except perhaps if you bthrow somebody onto a platform, but even then it's likely it wouldn't be a tech chase except maybe against FFers), so you are correct; her throws are not DI traps.

 

[LightningLoops]

Sign me up for 3.0 Samus.

 

[AxewKing]

Sign me up for 3.0

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't understand how one move dictates a playstyle.

It's not just one move. I'm really getting exhausted having to explain this.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Honestly, Zss feels just fine to me... and I really wonder why no one has mentioned her potential d-throw chain grab! What is so bad with this version?

I understand why dash-canceling paralyzer was removed, but that couldn't possibly have hurt her that much.

So up-throw and d-throw are slower. Are we truly still unable to find some use for them? CHAIN GRABS MAYBE WITH DOWN THROW. seriously, we got something completely new, and there are potentially hidden gems through all the muk we seem to have such a problem with. Maybe we can't use up-throw at low percents if some characters can punish it. Maybe d-throw just doesn't set up like it used to. We still have other options don't we?

And was her nair range that necessary? Please at least explain that to me. How big was it? Compared to now? Maybe we the old range just wasn't the fairest? Maybe that gave nair too big of an advantage to zss.

 

[Foo]

Honestly, Zss feels just fine to me... and I really wonder why no one has mentioned her potential d-throw chain grab! What is so bad with this version?

I understand why dash-canceling paralyzer was removed, but that couldn't possibly have hurt her that much.

So up-throw and d-throw are slower. Are we truly still unable to find some use for them? CHAIN GRABS MAYBE WITH DOWN THROW. seriously, we got something completely new, and there are potentially hidden gems through all the muk we seem to have such a problem with. Maybe we can't use up-throw at low percents if some characters can punish it. Maybe d-throw just doesn't set up like it used to. We still have other options don't we?

And was her nair range that necessary? Please at least explain that to me. How big was it? Compared to now? Maybe we the old range just wasn't the fairest? Maybe that gave nair too big of an advantage to zss.

No one has mentioned her "potential d-throw chaingrab" because it doesn't work. The only way you can get regrab off dthrow is if they DI into you. Not only that, but you cannot punish them in any way for DIing away from you because fthrow an bthrow send too far away, and you DI dthrow and upthrow the same way.

You knock us for not testing, but it's abundantly clear that we have done more testing than you by a long shot. I am long past messing around with the throws. I have tested them extensively, but there's no potential. If they DI properly, you get no follow up. If they are the right fall speed, you get a tech chase. ZSS literally has the worst throws in the game, bar none. Other characters with bad throws tend to at least have kill throws or guaranteed tech chases.

As for her nair, it was pretty big. About as much range as backair. I don't blame them for nerfing it, but they HALVED the frontal range and made it not hit as low. This means it went from nearly her longest range aerial to nearly the shortest, as well as going from one of the longer aerials in the game to one of the shortest. Aerials that short ranged are generally combo breakers (mario nair) or combo finishers (roy bair). It actually reaches farther behind her than in front of her now.

On the topic of DC paralyzer, we aren't really complaining that it's bad, we are complaining that they remove a very fun mechanic that, when combined with a few other things they removed, made her the character she was.

@ ph00tbag Yeah, that's pretty much why I gave up. It felt like the PMDT members who replied were replying without even reading my posts. I have lost hope of her 3.0 playstyle returning, but maybe they'll at least make her nair range not terrible and her throws not awful.

She may be a tad OP if they buff her throws and nair, so I say to compensate, her backwards nair range gets nerf and her up b stage tether range takes a slight hit. Maybe nerf some damage values instead idc.

 

[Shokio]

I just want:

- A combo game off of her throws via a DI mixup.

- The lag on DThrow and UpThrow utterly removed or significantly lessened so that opponents arent already moving by the time you're ready to approach them, and so you dont get punished for performing UpThrow.

- An approach option. Preferably the restoration of the Nair. Cause of right now, you literally have to run around the map until your opponent makes a mistake. She has no tools to really take matters into her own hands.

 

[Player-3]

Alright..keep dthrow uthrow as is


Toon link fthrow sheik bthrow

4 viable throws that accomplish different things and mixup

Sounds good to me!!!!!

 

[Angell]

I love the 3.5 grab.

Sign me up as strongly against.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Do you like the grab only, or the throws as well? I'd understand liking the grab - it's easier to land, unlike her tether. However, I would be legitimately confused if you happened to like her new throws as well. I'm not trying to call you out here, but can you explain to me what exactly it is you like about them (if you happen to like them, that is)?

 

[Angell]

Do you like the grab only, or the throws as well? I'd understand liking the grab - it's easier to land, unlike her tether. However, I would be legitimately confused if you happened to like her new throws as well. I'm not trying to call you out here, but can you explain to me what exactly it is you like about them (if you happen to like them, that is)?

No, I don't like her new throws that much, actually I think they're pretty bad. But I always hated the tether grab with a passion. I would be legitimately confused if someone liked her new throws better as well. I started a thread about turning her two throws into a di mixup.

Also thank you for being so polite to me

 

[Losho]

As anyone who is reading this forum knows, the vast majority of Zero Suit players seem to hate the ZSS changes. As someone in this camp, I would like to do whatever possible to bring my favorite smash character of all time back from the dead.

For those who don't know, Zero Suit in 3.5 was change drastically. She was given some nice fixes on a side-b, fair, and upsmash to make them work as intended. She also got a much better grab. However, those changes came at a massive cost. Her neutral airs combo potential at low % was removed and now it is a high% combo tool while also having range cut down significantly, he dash cancel paralyzer was removed, her dair's combo potential was nerfed and all of her non-tech chase follow ups out of throw were removed. She also received some recovery nerfs. To compensate, the PMDT gave slight damage buffs to moves like jab, nair and dtilt, but what results is a character that plays nothing like 3.0 ZSS

Because ZSS wasn't the best character, all of use picked her up in 3.0 because she was fun, she was unique and/or she felt really smooth. I, for one, want my character back for these reasons.

By signing this petition, you are saying "I want 3.0 Zero Suit's core gameplay back." More specifically:

I want dash cancel paralyzer to be restored.
I want nairs combo potential to be restored, even if it's slightly nerfed.
I want her throws to be restored, and if it means giving her the tether grab back, that's absolutely fine.
I am fine with reasonable nerfs and changes, but I want the core of Zero Suit Samus to return.

To sign, just make it clear in the thread below (don't PM me, post below for proof) and I will put your name into the petition. There is no goal for signatures, so just keep signing. Hopefully if enough people do, 3.6 will fix these problems

1. Foo
2. Erik Aldereguia
3. Ouroboro
4. InfinityCollision
5. CzarYoshi
6. homesuck
7. stingers
8. Roche_CL
9. _Chrome
10. Shokio
11. Legit
12. Lust for Glory
13. kchamp523
14. CrypticJav
15. Player-3
16. indyrenegade
17. MaysTheCraze
18. Stryker
19. Esper
20. TTTTTsd
21. Haku125
22. steelguttey
23. internetmovieguy
24. LightningLoops
25. AxewKing




To make it fair, and to give perspective, I am also going to start a petition on the opposite side. If you sign this petition, you are saying.

I like 3.5 Zero Suit.
While I may or may not think she is perfect this patch, I agree with the changes that were made to her this patch.

1. skellitorman
2. mimgrim
3. Kally Wally
4. Hussler
5. Yurya
6. kaizo13
7. Myst007_teh_newb
8. Beorn
9. JANKX
10. Angell

I will sign, the changes made me switch characters. She just doesn't feel the same anymore.

 

[Lust for Glory]

No, I don't like her new throws that much, actually I think they're pretty bad. But I always hated the tether grab with a passion. I would be legitimately confused if someone liked her new throws better as well. I started a thread about turning her two throws into a di mixup.

Also thank you for being so polite to me

No worries man, just trying to understand both sides of the story.

 

[MLGF]

...This is still relevant? By god, I expected (maybe hoped) this topic would die by now.

Regardless, this whole thread is... well... immature.

Sorry, but I've been playing PM for a while and have gone through some crazy stuff with my main Ike. But I never did anything more then say it's a little surprising to see such drastic changes when it first happened. But anyone who knows anything about PM's track record should know and expect this. ESPECIALLY when 3.5 made it clear they're going for some drastic changes. How could you have not been partly prepared?

Regardless, it's painfully immature to make a petition because of your character. Plenty of meta changes have happened and it's smart to just look at what your character is able to still do or do better. If you're so set on this, then ya better make one for the Zelda players, Sheik's down throw, 2.5 Sonic, and whatever else I ****ing feel like while I'm at it.

 

[Foo]

...This is still relevant? By god, I expected (maybe hoped) this topic would die by now.

Regardless, this whole thread is... well... immature.

Sorry, but I've been playing PM for a while and have gone through some crazy stuff with my main Ike. But I never did anything more then say it's a little surprising to see such drastic changes when it first happened. But anyone who knows anything about PM's track record should know and expect this. ESPECIALLY when 3.5 made it clear they're going for some drastic changes. How could you have not been partly prepared?

Regardless, it's painfully immature to make a petition because of your character. Plenty of meta changes have happened and it's smart to just look at what your character is able to still do or do better. If you're so set on this, then ya better make one for the Zelda players, Sheik's down throw, 2.5 Sonic, and whatever else I ****ing feel like while I'm at it.

Why is making a petition immature? If anything, it's much more mature than reactions we've seen from other forums. We don't have any threads remotely near the level of "3.5 Death of a Viable Samus" or Pika players saying their character is now unplayable.

It's as simple as this. I was very unhappy with the method by which they changed ZSS in 3.5, and I noticed others felt the same way. So I decided to, in as organized of a manner as possible, gather people together to give feedback to the PMDT. That's well within the realm of one of a beta game's forum's two primary purposes. We were prepared for change, some excited. However, we feel/felt the changes altered her core design in a bad way, and that she was much less fun and interesting. It's not just complaining about an OP tool getting nerfed, it's about a cool mechanic being taken away. Sonic can still be sonic, zelda still has ridiculous lighting kick and sheik can still chaingrab. Mewtwo can also still act out of teleport, lucario still has his ridiculousness, spacies still have JC shine etc. (we aren't asking for those things to be removed) Irregardless, I would bet mad dollars that, with the exception of zelda, there would be far more signatures against than for.

I really just fail to see what's so immature about this. All we did was compile a list of names of people who wanted 3.02 zero suit PLAYSTYLE back and a list of people who liked 3.5. I can't think of anything you could call more "mature" other than just remaining silent, but it's a forum. Voicing your opinion is kinda the point. Also, we aren't "so set on this." Signing a petition is probably the most passive attempt at solving a problem next to silently hoping.

Also, making this thread took no effort. Any time most of us spent here would have been spent on the forums anyway. It is smart to look for at what ZSS can still do and what she does better. That's why I have. I've spent hours and hours testing nonsense to see what sticks and I've come up with some great stuff. I may as well go into tier list speculation and say "Why are you guys talking about how good/bad characters are instead of seeing what those characters are all capable of?"

 

[NondairyDanzig]

I much prefer 3.02 ZSS, sign me up please.

 

[Shokio]

Nobody here said "Down with the Dev Team", "**** the Dev Team this is stupid", etc. Everyone here has been expressing their frustration, yes, but nobody here has been disrespectful about it. There's nothing immature about expressing discontent.

 

[ph00tbag]

...This is still relevant? By god, I expected (maybe hoped) this topic would die by now.

Well, people still assume we're just whining about our character getting nerfed, without reading the whole thread's worth of calm, valid criticism that these changes have drastically altered the core gameplay style of the character, and try to shout us down.

Whoops.

 

[Queen Ystella]

Put me on the list for the old ZSS.

The moment I got punished for shooting someone with my laser point blank so I could grab them I just had enough of 3.5 ZSS.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Why is making a petition immature? If anything, it's much more mature than reactions we've seen from other forums. We don't have any threads remotely near the level of "3.5 Death of a Viable Samus" or Pika players saying their character is now unplayable.

It's as simple as this. I was very unhappy with the method by which they changed ZSS in 3.5, and I noticed others felt the same way. So I decided to, in as organized of a manner as possible, gather people together to give feedback to the PMDT. That's well within the realm of one of a beta game's forum's two primary purposes. We were prepared for change, some excited. However, we feel/felt the changes altered her core design in a bad way, and that she was much less fun and interesting. It's not just complaining about an OP tool getting nerfed, it's about a cool mechanic being taken away. Sonic can still be sonic, zelda still has ridiculous lighting kick and sheik can still chaingrab. Mewtwo can also still act out of teleport, lucario still has his ridiculousness, spacies still have JC shine etc. (we aren't asking for those things to be removed) Irregardless, I would bet mad dollars that, with the exception of zelda, there would be far more signatures against than for.

I really just fail to see what's so immature about this. All we did was compile a list of names of people who wanted 3.02 zero suit PLAYSTYLE back and a list of people who liked 3.5. I can't think of anything you could call more "mature" other than just remaining silent, but it's a forum. Voicing your opinion is kinda the point. Also, we aren't "so set on this." Signing a petition is probably the most passive attempt at solving a problem next to silently hoping.

Also, making this thread took no effort. Any time most of us spent here would have been spent on the forums anyway. It is smart to look for at what ZSS can still do and what she does better. That's why I have. I've spent hours and hours testing nonsense to see what sticks and I've come up with some great stuff. I may as well go into tier list speculation and say "Why are you guys talking about how good/bad characters are instead of seeing what those characters are all capable of?"

In defense of the Samus threads, the name is an artistic, yet satirical way tto get attention and complain about no more tether cancels. All thediscussions within are nothing apart from mature or controversial. well, except for a few overreactions.

edit: @ Queen Ystella isn't that akin to shooting a falco laser point plank with no land cancel?

 

[Queen Ystella]

In defense of the Samus threads, the name is an artistic, yet satirical way tto get attention and complain about no more tether cancels. All thediscussions within are nothing apart from mature or controversial. well, except for a few overreactions.

edit: @ Queen Ystella isn't that akin to shooting a falco laser point plank with no land cancel?

Yes it is akin to but but Falco's lasers land cancel so it's not a problem for him.

ZSS can't land cancel her lasers so the gun serves no real purpose anymore.

Short hop laser without a cancel doesn't leave ZSS many options.

 

[ph00tbag]

In defense of the Samus threads, the name is an artistic, yet satirical way tto get attention and complain about no more tether cancels. All thediscussions within are nothing apart from mature or controversial. well, except for a few overreactions.

It's really just KLit being his usual buttmunch self.

 

[mimgrim]

Put me on the list for the old ZSS.

The moment I got punished for shooting someone with my laser point blank so I could grab them I just had enough of 3.5 ZSS.

This is super bad reasoning.

You got punished for using a laggy projectile at point blank range and your mad about it.

Like wtf.

Toon Link and Link get punished for pulling a bomb too close to the opponent, attempting to use Arrow too close to the opponent, or even Boomerang too close. Or Ivysaur and Razor Leaf. Or Samus and her Charge Shot. I could go on and on.

This is seriously an instance of "you're bad, git gud".

 

[Kally Wally]

"My projectile has more commitment than the lowest commitment projectile in any fighting game ever, therefore every other change made to my character is unjustified."

 

[Queen Ystella]

This is super bad reasoning.

You got punished for using a laggy projectile at point blank range and your mad about it.

Like wtf.

Toon Link and Link get punished for pulling a bomb too close to the opponent, attempting to use Arrow too close to the opponent, or even Boomerang too close. Or Ivysaur and Razor Leaf. Or Samus and her Charge Shot. I could go on and on.

This is seriously an instance of "you're bad, git gud".

You could have asked me if I had more reasons to dislike 3.5 Zero Suit Samus rather than being a total ****ing idiot and assuming that I only had one reason.

The gun isn't the only reason I dislike 3.5 ZSS but sure go ahead and be a total asshole.

 

[gmBottles]

You could have asked me if I had more reasons to dislike 3.5 Zero Suit Samus rather than being a total ****ing idiot and assuming that I only had one reason.

The gun isn't the only reason I dislike 3.5 ZSS but sure go ahead and be a total *******.

You could have told us more things you dislike about ZSS, but you only said one thing. Based on this, we can assume it is the only issue you had, it isn't anyone being a "total ****ing idiot".
Calm down.

 

[Shokio]

*Walks backwards out of the room*

 

[mimgrim]

You could have asked me if I had more reasons to dislike 3.5 Zero Suit Samus rather than being a total ****ing idiot and assuming that I only had one reason.

The gun isn't the only reason I dislike 3.5 ZSS but sure go ahead and be a total *******.

Congratulations. You made me laugh.

You posted a single reason of why you disliked 3.5 ZSS, a reason I found to be highly stupid and just plain whiney. It's not on me fore you to give more reasons as to why you dislike 3.5 ZSS. That's solely on you. And even if you had posted more reasons I would have still said the exact same thing to that specific reason anyways, so nothing would be different about what I said anyways.

Besides I never claimed that was your only reason. That was the only reason you posted, however, and I replied to it with disagreement.

 

[Queen Ystella]

Congratulations. You made me laugh.

You posted a single reason of why you disliked 3.5 ZSS, a reason I found to be highly stupid and just plain whiney. It's not on me fore you to give more reasons as to why you dislike 3.5 ZSS. That's solely on you. And even if you had posted more reasons I would have still said the exact same thing to that specific reason anyways, so nothing would be different about what I said anyways.

Besides I never claimed that was your only reason. That was the only reason you posted, however, and I replied to it with disagreement.

Thanks, making people laugh is pretty cool.

Oh and you got me there. Nothing to argue.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sign me up for 3.02 ZSS.

Yes I realize that the laser was polarizing, but the dash cancel mechanic itself was very interesting. If the laser itself has to be nerfed to compensate then I'll take that nerf GLADLY. Make the dash cancel uninterruptible, make the laser clankable, lower it's damage. This all is FINE, because it will still be a more fun and more useful tool that it is now.

Dash cancel lasers gave a feeling of fluidity to ZSS's gameplan. More than just the mindless spamming for approach, it was cool for extending how long you could hold an advantageous position. You could end a combo and shoot a laser to just claim space until you can physically reach that spot, you could tech chase with it just to have a little frame advantage (it doesn't need to have enough stun to actually combo from it imo). While the comparison to Falco lasers is sort of fair....it was nowhere near as good as falco lasers and it certainly doesn't need to be to "feel" right).

I've been playing "dash dance grab" in melee for 6 years. ZSS was cool because she's a fast character who WASN'T all about dash dancing to bait and punish people (mostly with grab). She could poke with some safe-ish options, convert that into quite a bit of damage, and try to sneak a kill in (actually landing something that would combo into kill moves wasn't as cut and dry with her as someone like Falcon). It was this weird mix of Falco/Marth that made me love the character, but now she feels like...Falcon but kinda different.


Down B distance cut? Recoveries needed to be nerfed anyway
Tether lag? ditto
Nair nerf? A little overdone, but it's the right direction anyway.
Unclankable laser? Was stupid and glad it's gone.

Grab? Tether grab was cool even if it's not as good as a standard grab? There were what 5 tether grabs in the game? Why get rid of one that actually worked nicely?
Remove dash cancel on laser? Whether this was done to give her a normal grab or if the grab was changed as "compensation" for the laser, I think it was a bad choice that just homogenizes her.

 

[Shokio]

Oro?! already stated that the dash cancel was way too strong with a normal grab, and that it 100% won't be coming back. But I'm over the laser things, because I've never been the kind of player to heavily utilize my projectiles anyway.

I just want Up-Throw to be restored to the DI mix-up it used to be and I want the endlags on both throws removed or reduced, and I'll be good. That and the range of Nair restored. The damage can go back to 10.

 

[Queen Ystella]

I'd rather Samus have her cancel-able lasers back since I actually rely heavily on projectiles and that was what I liked. Playing ZSS was like playing a highly mobile Falco who could keep people out with her lasers.

I don't care if they make the lasers trash or have almost no stun unless charged. The ability to keep people out and zone coupled with her unique playstyle was why I liked her.
I agree with Dark Sonic in the sense that she just feels like Captain Falcon now. All semblances of what made her unique and fun to play have been removed and she was turned into another run of the mill rush down character.

It'd also be nice to have throws that actually didn't completely suck. It's like the devs didn't know what they were doing when they decided to "balance" anyone in this patch.

Her gameplay was unique before with a sort of hit-and-run mixed in with zoning before. I didn't mind her tether grab because at least I could use it to catch rolls, spot dodges, and confirm off of a mixup with her laser if they get hit/block.

Just because you didn't play ZSS with her laser doesn't mean that others didn't either. That was basically her key feature. At least to me it made her able to force a situation on people which is something that I liked about her.

It's sad that when I play Wolf I feel more like I'm playing ZSS than when I play ZSS in PM. I've been playing her for almost 7 years now. I shouldn't be expected to deal with such a drastic change in her core gameplay that's been around since she was created.

That's beyond alienating those that played her the way I did, which focused on her projectiles.

 

[Angell]

Oro?! already stated that the dash cancel was way too strong with a normal grab, and that it 100% won't be coming back. But I'm over the laser things, because I've never been the kind of player to heavily utilize my projectiles anyway.

I just want Up-Throw to be restored to the DI mix-up it used to be and I want the endlags on both throws removed or reduced, and I'll be good. That and the range of Nair restored. The damage can go back to 10.

This is a petition I will support!