eideeiit
Smash Ace
That decides it, as of this moment ZSS is my new main
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Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter Foo
- Start date
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
it is a completely serious statement. do your testing more carefully next time, and you will see that what ive said is correct. ZSS gets guarenteed follow ups on zelda from 0 % until around 65-70%. that means you can hit her with a quick uair or nair before shes out of hitstun, with her DIing down and away. at 110%, does she get a direct follow up? no. but zelda has about 6 frames of wiggle room to jump out. her fair takes 9 frames to come out. she cannot hit you with it at all out of dthrow.
the only characters that dthrow doesnt really work on are the extreme floaties that very few characters can actually combo out of throws, and heavier floaties (rob, yoshi, samus, m2). again, most characters dont really combo ANY of these guys that reliably. with any other character that isnt in the floaty spectrum, you will force a tech chase. if they DI such that they can escape the ground before teching, then you are allowed a free follow up, for a good margin of percents. if youre working with the FFers just uthrow them to tech chase them. it works fine. ZSS has guarented tech chase set ups around the cast, and they are not flawed set ups.. would it be nice to have a little more than that. sure. but when talking about fully functional tech chase throws, ZSS has them on all but floaties.
m2 can also not fair you out of dthrow at 0%. again you will see this with consistent testing. for the most part, m2 is either forced to tech for a bit, or get comboed. after around 20% i think he can jump out of it too, but if he tries to fair you, you can easily beat it out with nair (which has good disoint), and you can even get a dash attack out before he gets fair out. if youre getting faired out of dthrow, youre either not acting quickly enough, or you arent making good reads on his options at percents where he potentially could fair you.
who is talking about chain grabs again? maybe that happened in earlier pages but no one recently is trying to argue that.
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Put me back in the first petition to restore her please...
Shiek-Falcon except you have to tryhard just to get anything started and your true combos don't start until 40%. You also don't have anything free.
eideeiit
Smash Ace
...
So like the worst of both worlds? I've been playing her against bots for these past few days and her movement is really fun for me. How would you describe her against humans? Is she fun to play even when you're getting your ass handed to you?
So like the worst of both worlds? I've been playing her against bots for these past few days and her movement is really fun for me. How would you describe her against humans? Is she fun to play even when you're getting your ass handed to you?
She's all sorts of fun, but she's like lower mid-tier. Expect to struggle a lot.
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-677
granted StrongBads list only represents the opinions of one person, but this should hold some weight at least in terms of her placement. pretty fair at B+ if you ask me. i dont see her being any lower, nor much higher. thats still a largely competitive placement.
granted StrongBads list only represents the opinions of one person, but this should hold some weight at least in terms of her placement. pretty fair at B+ if you ask me. i dont see her being any lower, nor much higher. thats still a largely competitive placement.
Foo
Smash Lord
Yeah, it's fair enough. Personally, I'd put her below peach (peach is getting TONS of play AND success and has so much crazy stuff hnnnnnnnng) and I think ganon, luigi, sonic and game and watch are very underrated on this list.
Keep in mind, despite what everyone who doesn't read our posts seem to think, very few people think she's "bad." Most problems people have with the changes are design based, and most discussion of her weaknesses are aimed at people trying to put her in A tier. The majority of the zss forums seem to think she's middle, with a few thinking she's high and a few thinking she's low.
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
A B+ on THAT particular scale makes sense, considering there's an S+ teir and the lowest is a C- tier.
On an unrelated note, I think G&W is super slept-on by most people.
On an unrelated note, I think G&W is super slept-on by most people.
BlackMamba
Smash Apprentice
G&W is definitely slept on, and I don't really get why. When played well, he shuts down a pretty large portion of the cast just in terms of range, can combo nearly everyone, and DI-ing his throws correctly is almost impossible since the startup animation is the same lol.
Also general question (to anyone)... how do you get kills with ZSS? I look at these boards sometimes now since I started toying around with her in 3.5, but at this point I have so much trouble setting up kills with her that I have no idea if I'll ever feel comfortable pulling her out in tournament. Having played her a moderate amount, that's what I feel like her main issue is in this version (that and getting almost no followups on any of her throws... especially on floaties). I can build up damage all day but doesn't matter much if I can't finish the stock lol. Dunno if getting kills was easier in 3.02 or what, didn't ever play her til this version.
Foo
Smash Lord
Spaced bair and comboing into fair are her most reliable kills. Hard read on down-smash or side-b lead to fmsmash or bair. Dair can also lead to a bair if they DI behind you. Outside of that, you can edgeguard or wait till upair kills at like 200%
And yeah, you can't get follow ups off of throws.
BlackMamba
Smash Apprentice
lol it always surprises me when that move kills because it doesn't look like it should
Roxas215
Smash Lord
I just want to know why we cant combo off any of her throws come kill percent?? Why the hell does her upthrow have so much lag??
Octavium
''Fear doesn't stop death, it stops life.''
Restore to 3.0 Please
NondairyDanzig
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 19, 2014
- Messages
- 30
I was just playing some 3.02, her moveset was so much more fun then. I miss the dash cancelled blaster, tether grab and actual follow ups from a throw 
Cuccu Maestro
Smash Cadet
This is silly, ZSS is completely fine
Esper
Smash Cadet
After playing her again for a while, I'd say the points shokio made are spot on. I like how fair and u-smash are somewhat usable now and I'm okay with her nerfs to dair, up-b and down-b.
The blaster is a defensive tool now, which is kinda pointless, but I'm not really a heavy projectile user, so I don't really care too much.
The nair-range should be restored (while keeping the other changes to it). It has no real purpose anymore in this state and the range-nerf was completely unjustified.
D.C.L and G13_Flux have argued against removing the additional ending lag on both throws. D.C.L's videos are against CPUs which (obvioulsy) don't DI properly, so this isn't really a good argument.
G13_Flux claims removing the additional endlag would catapult ZSS to top-tier/broken status instantly, which is ridiculous imo.
The blaster is a defensive tool now, which is kinda pointless, but I'm not really a heavy projectile user, so I don't really care too much.
The nair-range should be restored (while keeping the other changes to it). It has no real purpose anymore in this state and the range-nerf was completely unjustified.
D.C.L and G13_Flux have argued against removing the additional ending lag on both throws. D.C.L's videos are against CPUs which (obvioulsy) don't DI properly, so this isn't really a good argument.
G13_Flux claims removing the additional endlag would catapult ZSS to top-tier/broken status instantly, which is ridiculous imo.
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
if youre going to mention an argument that involves me, please at least be complete. I have stated that her uthrow could possibly stand to get some decreased endlag, though the current iteration of her throw game is completely functional. many claimed that combos and tech chases werent possible with her current throws. I tested and cited specific situations across various characters, using frame data as my argument, which proved that dthrow combos and tech chases were actually very prevalent, and that uthrow set up for great tech chases on fast fallers.
what your comment about me should say is as follows:
"G13_Flux claims that removing endlag on her throws, restoring them to their 3.02 version containing a 50/50 DI mixup, and then restoring her nair to 3.02 would catapult her to top tier."
These are the attributes that some were arguing for. if you go back through the thread, and re-read my posts, you will see that i mentioned the combination of all these as OP. the catch is that my statement is very likely true though. at the moment, ZSS is considered to be B+ tier. if you gave her the 3.02 range/stats on nair, then gave her the throw game she had before, she wouldnt really have any weakneses.. at least any major, exploitable ones. kills would be extremely easy to garner considering the ease that the combination of her nair and DI mixup throw game would have in setting up for fairs, bairs, and dive kicks. when you put that onto the arguably most mobile character in the game, who also happens to possess some of the greatest disjoint.. like come on, do the math.
ive basically chalked up this argument enough times. its gotten pretty heated in this thread and im not exactly trying to bring that back only to be arguing about the same exact things. Just please, if youre going to quote me, do it right, and make it complete. dont neglect 90% of my argument and pick phrases. have your opinion, just dont warp mine.
ive also said that she still could use some tweaks. if i was going to do anything to her atm, i would increase nair range a bit, and take some lag of uthrow. alternatively, i would rework her dash attack to actually have hitboxes that werent negatively disjointed, and maybe function slightly differently. i do love her current verrsion of blaster however. i honestly think it allows you to open up a very creative game, given the full mobility control you have over it, and the possibility of two modes of shooting.
DragSamus
Smash Rookie
I'd like to sign for the side of 3.5 as a ZSS main. I just think ZSS is a beautiful character. But maybe i'm biased, because I picked up ZSS in 3.5.