Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

[SlothFacts]

Hi! Filthy casual player, here. I just wanted to say I played 3.5 for the first time, tonight, and where I loved Zero Suit before, she was absolutely not satisfying to play, now. Everything I enjoyed about the character seems to no longer work or be useful. The character she is now just doesn't appeal to me at all. It's kind of depressing since Project M was the closest I've come to actually getting hardcore into Smash.

Anyway, sorry to intrude!

 

[Dawnz_]

Put me on for 3.02

 

[Shokio]

Put me on for 3.02

I like your pic bro.

 

[Dawnz_]

I like your pic bro.

Oh thanks you too

 

[Heero Yuy]

Put me down for the 2nd list...for now.

Am I allowed to change my signature after I start playing her more? If not then don't worry about my vote yet.

 

[Deleted member]

Add me to the list of "I love ZSS, I agree with the changes made to her this patch"

 

[Player-3]

except her throws feeling weird


i dont mind the lag just make the animation match it pls

 

[Arcana~]

I would gladly trade-in her standard grab in exchange for her old tether one if it meant she could have her dash-cancel Paralyzer back.. Pretty much the only note-worthy ZSS player in PM (Oro!?) is a PMBR member and I'm kinda baffled he didn't stick up for her a bit more in 3.5.

I can learn to live with all the other changes to her but she needed that dash-cancel as her primary means of approach and metagame.

3.02 all day.

 

[D.C.L]

Hello, a nobody here. There's just something I wanna say to this thread on Zero Suit's "Changes". Now I'm not gonna sign this petition, because frankly I don't think it's really necessary but that does not mean I am going for 3.5 ZSS. I actually want answers from the PM Devs on WHY they made these changes. Some I approve, some I don't.

At first, I didn't enjoy the changes AT ALL. It felt as if I lost the character I'm best with. The changes baffled me,
and I kept wondering why it was done.

The worst thing I did was actually attempt to drop Zero Suit as my main when 3.5 was released. However, I decided to adapt to the new changes. The main changes I'm going to include are as follows, but I also want to go over on what her bad match ups are...

1. Neutral Air
2. Non-Tether Grab
3. Neutral B Dash Cancel
4. Down Throw

1. The Nair nerf in distance I disapprove. As well as the knock back decrease from 40 to 25. I guess the move is just to rack up damage instead of a useful kill move now. By "kill move" I mean going offstage and catching the opponent's second jump while spacing it out with its wider size. I used to do that to in 3.02. But now, I'm actually a little paranoid to attempt it because it might trade with an opponent's move if they see it coming.

2. The Non-Tether grab, I didn't mind this change. As a matter of fact, I'm glad. Going for a grab was the riskiest thing I could do. One of my friends plays spacies and we all know what spacies do. If I missed, I knew full well an up-smash was coming to kill me.
This change felt necessary, now I can actually "chain grab" spacies and other characters at certain percentages, unless they know which way to DI. On a fast faller, if they escape the chain grab I can just tech chase. I wish I could provide examples of me doing this but I can't as of now.

3. The Dash Cancel Neutral B being removed...
I heavily questioned this...so why?? Why was it removed? This was an incredible asset for Zero Suit because it scared opponents into getting caught in a hit stun while she was already charging in for an assault. Some might argue, "It can be fast falled"...okay? What good would that normally do? Unlike Fox or Falco, Zero Suit can't "short-hop laser" to instantly cancel her landing lag, not even Wolf can do it. I don't even use this anymore. The best choice for a full hit stun is to get a hard read down smash, which what I've been doing all along.

4. The Down Throw is the most used out of all her throws. The changes though at first made it look no longer reliable. Here's where I kinda have to disagree with most people. The change in angle (80 to 60) For fast fallers, dthrow is a nightmare because they'll have to tech, and that means Zero Suit can tech chase them, I'm looking at spacies for this...
The major downside is those extra 5 frames for an IASA, which means followups are either more difficult, or impossible. I personally find them more difficult, somehow I can chain grab Sheik (haven't tested anyone else) with down throw at an early percent (unless DI of course). Again i wish I had evidence to show it.
As for spacies, I now use Up-throw (around 32+%) to effectively chain grab them. Again DI will help them escape, but if they do, it will lead into a tech chase. It's a much more difficult tech chase especially if they tech away. On platforms though, they are doomed.


What do you personally think Zero Suit's bad match ups are?
In no particular order, these are what I think are her most horrible matchups.

Sheik
Easily gimps her with needles.
Fair and Nair can beat out ZSS nair and upair? Could be me though, but most of the time I get caught with Fair or Nair beating mine out. It doesn't help out since Zero Suit's Nair size was decreased either. Again, it could just be me and bad timing and spacing.

Fox
One shine off stage, whether she has a second jump or not means a stock lost. And Zero Suit isn't really a fast faller or floaty so she will get comboed pretty badly by Fox. And with the "Special tether" limit on recoveries after 2 tries will render ZSS helpless.

Marth
Spacing and tippers is all i have to say really. Marth can beat out nearly any move ZSS makes. It's sad really. I do use Marth as like a 3rd character though so I don't really have anything against it. It's just what it is, a bad matchup.

Falco
Short hop lasers makes ZSS players cry I assume. It just annoys me is all. And since Falco likes to be Falco and combo all day, its gonna be a bad time for Zero Suit. Spikes all day. But I can also say that Falco could have a bad time with Zero Suit as well. His bad recovery, fast faller and all.

Lucas
Ew...just an opinion...

Now to end this, no one has to agree with me, but please take this into consideration and learn to adapt to the changes.
I REALLY wish I can provide some video footage of me using ZSS to show what she can now do. I went from disliking the changes, to dropping her completely, and suddenly main her again because I didn't wanna lose her as my main.

One more time...no one has to agree with me...

 

[Lust for Glory]

I'm no PMDT member, but after lurking throughout the whole commotion of this thread, I can help where answers have already been given. Specifically point number 3.

The DCP was removed because ZSS was given a standard grab. That's really it. Her ability to get places immediately is nothing to scoff at, and having a hitbox in front of her WHILE she is approaching the opponent was deemed "too strong" when testing ZSS, thus resulting into the omittment of DCP. Really, it was a trade off between her new grab and DCP. While some may say DCP is the superior option to keep, you have to realize that nerfs across the board will ultimately mean something lost for us ZSS players (and I firmly believe we were robbed a bit too much; LOOKING AT YOU, NAIR). Also, the PMDT has claimed that a standard grab "better fits the character". What does that mean? I dont know myself, to be completely honest.

Lastly, we cant just factor our opinions and our opinions only. Other characters suffered bad MU's specifically because of DCP and the option it gave us. I'm not saying it was a "DCP and win" kind of situation, but it was a bit silly if I do say so myself.

Regardless of how you bad you think ZSS has been nerfed, I encourage you to keep adapting and playing ZSS. If DCP was the janky stuff you loved from her, explore other janky stuff! I dont know how much you may know the character (I'm really just assuming at this point), but try and learn as much janky tech possible to try to fill that gap that DCP used to fill. Specifically, I reccomend some good ol' brawl stuff like B-reversals and wavebouncing. Any small improvemnts like those really adds to ZSS's play if you can apply it correctly.


As for bad MU's, it seems te general agreement is that spacies and FE boys beat ZSS. Others like Shiek and Squirtle do well against her too, but people mostly struggle with the first 2 categories.

 

[D.C.L]

The DCP was removed because ZSS was given a standard grab. That's really it. Her ability to get places immediately is nothing to scoff at, and having a hitbox in front of her WHILE she is approaching the opponent was deemed "too strong" when testing ZSS, thus resulting into the omittment of DCP. Really, it was a trade off between her new grab and DCP. While some may say DCP is the superior option to keep, you have to realize that nerfs across the board will ultimately mean something lost for us ZSS players (and I firmly believe we were robbed a bit too much; LOOKING AT YOU, NAIR). Also, the PMDT has claimed that a standard grab "better fits the character". What does that mean? I dont know myself, to be completely honest.

Thanks for replying, and I didn't consider this as a reason to remove the Dash Cancel Paralyzer, I guess it was foolish of me. But also consider that the actual paralyzer projectile (the weak one) has increased speed, and if i remember correctly in 3.02, ZSS's run speed was faster than the projectile itself. If she still had the DCP, would you think her dash speed fall shortly behind the projectile as of now?

A standard grab "better fits the character"? I honestly don't know either but I won't deny I thoroughly enjoy using the new grab. Maybe we will find out what they mean by that someday...

 

[Shoto]

3.5 ZSS is better. Grab is pretty sweet.

Everybody had their characters changed. There are balance patches in this game you know. Characters will be diffeent with each patch. Just live with it, or find a new main.

Example: Used to play Diddy in 3.0. When I played 3.5 I found him disgusting to use. So I just played someone else. It's pretty simple.

 

[ph00tbag]

The changes to nair's knockback and damage are fine by me. They made it a little less easy to nairplane your opponent to death, while still retaining the move's ability to rack up damage. The main problem was they nerfed the range all to hell. Why they've taken a mid-range zoner and taken away several of her ranged options is beyond me.

 

[Shokio]

Agreed. I don't mind the new angle and knockback much. The only problem is the range nerf, which was totally unnecessary.

 

[InfinityCollision]

The changes to nair's knockback and damage are fine by me. They made it a little less easy to nairplane your opponent to death, while still retaining the move's ability to rack up damage. The main problem was they nerfed the range all to hell. Why they've taken a mid-range zoner and taken away several of her ranged options is beyond me.

Zoning doesn't fit her character archetype, she's meant to be a close-ranged fighter.

Kappa.

 

[ph00tbag]

O rite.

How could I forget.

 

[Stryker]

3.5 ZSS is better. Grab is pretty sweet.
[...]
Just live with it, or find a new main.

If you think her new grab is good, you ought to read what the intelligent people have to say about it, friend. Even the PMDT admits that its worse than it should be right now

As for finding a new main, sadly, most of us are. We just stick around these boards because we miss/like the character regardless of her current state.

 

[TimeSmash]

If you think her new grab is good, you ought to read what the intelligent people have to say about it

I reaallly don't have much to contribute, but that was hilarious.

Also D Throw is just blegh

 

[Stryker]

I reaallly don't have much to contribute, but that was hilarious.

It wasn't meant to be as funny as it was a frustrated statement.
We have awesome players in here that are putting the work in to figure this stuff out. And the fact that ZSS has 0 followups off a properly DI'd throw has not only been addressed to death, but even the PMDT has acknowledged that her throws aren't supposed to be this bad.
And all of this info is actually either in this thread, or the other thread. It's super annoying when someone just blindly wanders in and is like "No, but guys her grab game is good though" literally without reading what anyone else has said.
It's not good. It's bad. It's been said so. Over and over and over and over and over. It's so bad you it's basically not worth going for a grab unless there is a platform above you.

I would go so far as to guess that she currently has the worst throws in the game. And when you stack that on top of a neutral that your only safe option in a properly spaced bair, and no approach options, it leaves the character very frustrating to play.

Though to be fair, my original post may have been harsh. It probably should have been worded "Please go back in the thread and read the opinions of people who understand the data behind these moves and you will realize that her grab game is not very good" or something like that

 

[TimeSmash]

I completely agree with you. Her throws are atrocious, even though her grab is much better. At the very least, since it's been addressed by everyone, I would hope we see a change in that in 3.6/3.51 or what have you.

While I agree ZSS shouldn't have a Nair-copter exactly, her approach as you stated is quite limited. Especially considering Bair is not the easiest thing to hit with.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Yeah, I probably came off as someone who was very against the Nair changes, which I'm not. Really, I'm only upset about the range it has. I used to love spacing nair on shields and not get grabbed 100% of the time for it. As for the throws, I can't say anything negative about them that hasn't already been said.

I just want muh old nair range back. And GOOD throws while we're at it.

 

[Shokio]

Since it's been a while since we last did summaries of what's wrong (not that we should constantly be doing that):

1) Her Nair range is pretty bad now and it's harder than ever before to hit shorter characters. She no longer has an approach option; the range needs to be restored.

2) The frame endlags on both throws need to be reduced or removed altogether.

3) Up-Throw should throw at a 90 degree or higher angle, so it can be an ACTUAL good positioner and a slight DI-mixup for down throw.

This is something I don't think I've said before but it's something that's been annoying me for a while:

4) The KB on her jab needs to be reduced. She can't really jab reset people anymore unless they're at %30 and lower, or they're fast-fallers/heavies.

Don't know about the rest of ya'll, but in 3.02 a lot of the time I centered my gameplay around getting jab reset combos out of Up-B if I wasn't trying to set up for a grab. Jab-restting with ZSS is much, much harder and rare now.

If those 4 changes were made, I'd have no complaints tbh. And the 4th one isn't THAT big of a deal......she doesn't HAVE to jab reset, I just miss doing it.

 

[Deleted member]

ok, we'll fix her throws

at the cost of her up b glitching 100% of the time like it did with you vs hamyojo

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I think fair 1 can jab reset should you find yourself in the air (is SH up-b without doing a superjump possible?)
On the ground, is dsmash fast enough to punish a missed tech or do they have enough time to roll away? That could at least be a pseudo jab reset off of up-b if you're fast enough.

Also, I already said this in the normal discussion thread, but losing tether pivot grab sucks. Definitely on my reversion wish-list.

 

[AfterburnDeity]

3.02 ZSS please.

 

[Foo]

I think fair 1 can jab reset should you find yourself in the air (is SH up-b without doing a superjump possible?)
On the ground, is dsmash fast enough to punish a missed tech or do they have enough time to roll away? That could at least be a pseudo jab reset off of up-b if you're fast enough.

Also, I already said this in the normal discussion thread, but losing tether pivot grab sucks. Definitely on my reversion wish-list.

Nope. Fair 1 always hits with the same knockback regardless of % and hits them ever so slightly off the grounded (no jab reset). However, if you shffl just the first hit, it combos into dtilt or grab if they don't block or CC it. However, it loses really hard to both those.

Also, don't think so. You'll always do the up-b boost.

ok, we'll fix her throws

at the cost of her up b glitching 100% of the time like it did with you vs hamyojo

Seriously though, I think throws should be fixed (Dthrow be an actual tech chase, more kbg on fthrow, and higher knockback on upthrow OR slightly lower lag), nair range improved, up-b range (width) improved slightly (it's absurdly small right now in some places, and just goes right through people half the time), and her down-b shouldn't restore upon being hit. She may also need some really small QOL fixes like a frame or two off of upair landing lag (why does zss need 9, but every other combo character like falcon gets 7?)


P.S. I'm just going to let this petition die. I don't feel like there's any reason to keep doing it anymore.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Nope. Fair 1 always hits with the same knockback regardless of % and hits them ever so slightly off the grounded (no jab reset). However, if you shffl just the first hit, it combos into dtilt or grab if they don't block or CC it. However, it loses really hard to both those.

Also, don't think so. You'll always do the up-b boost.

Ah, too bad. Thanks for pointing out the jab reset thing, though, got me to look into it further. Jab reset on Fair 1 is actually character specific, sort of like Roy's DED 1. At the very least it seems to work on spacies, though.

 

[G13_Flux]

Im really not understanding everyones problem with dthrow.. uthrow i can understand to an extent, although it does the same thing dthrow does just with FFers. dthrow is a legit tech chase. other characters like kirby and MK got the same treatment to their tech chase throws. youve easily got 6+ frames of advantage at low-mid percents on standard weight/fallspeed characters. with her insane speed, its not that hard to get a follow up from a read. It IS a legit tech chase option in the scope of 3.5. at lower percents, or on FFers, you might not quite have enough frame advantage yet. but look at MK. his dthrow doesnt even send you into tumble at low percents.

additionally, saying she doesnt have an approach option is a bit exagerated. maybe nair has less range, but again, youre talking about the like 5th fastest character in the game and arguably most mobile. lets not even discuss how many moves she has under frame 6, and lets totally neglect the ridiculous disjoint she has for a character of her speed and mobility. AND lets totally neglect that her projectile is on the quick side for end lag compared to the rest of the cast.

im sorry guys but at this point, asking for fixes to nair, as well as throws is just too much. if ZSS had a true DI mixup grab game and a beefy nair approach option, she would skyrocket to number 1 on the tier list. I have little doubt about that.

maybe a tweak to nair, OR a tweak to uthrow would suffice, OR a tweak to the jab, like mentioned. but all of those? absolutely not. thats too much to ask for such a character. even as is she still places well enough against almost every other character aside from a couple counters she might have.

did I also mention how she has the 6th largest grab out of non tether characters? her JC grab range from a dash is huge. with her speed, lets face it, shes going to get a TON of grabs. if she needs to make another grab attempt to get a proper follow up compared to someone else whos slower with a shorter grab range, then i think that is fair.

 

[Stryker]

...

"Please go back in the thread and read the opinions of people who understand the data behind these moves and you will realize that she actually does have significant problems with all these parts of her game"
I totally learned my lesson this time and wasn't a weiner. But seriously. Just go read. Literally all of these points have been addressed with proper frame data.

Edit: This is another way of saying please don't make foo/shokio/infinity rewrite something that they've probably each written at least 4 times on this forum. All the writing is here already.

 

[G13_Flux]

"Please go back in the thread and read the opinions of people who understand the data behind these moves and you will realize that she actually does have significant problems with all these parts of her game"
I totally learned my lesson this time and wasn't a weiner. But seriously. Just go read. Literally all of these points have been addressed with proper frame data.

Edit: This is another way of saying please don't make foo/shokio/infinity rewrite something that they've probably each written at least 4 times on this forum. All the writing is here already.

Ive read the thread, and Ive read their posts, theyve made their points plenty of times. I also understand the frame data very well, and have tested out many things of hers in debug mode, but thank you for your concern! Im glad youre not a wiener anymore but dont talk to me like im 5. i make a lot of valid points in my post, and if you ignore them with simple comments then I dont think youre doing much thinking about the game.

i think that things are being complained about that dont need to be complained about. I still feel that everyone is just sore over the nerfs, and not aware of how the changes fall into 3.5s scope. like I said, i do believe that she could use some tweaks. BUT, @ Shokio is asking for attributes that would literally make her the best character in the game. if you removed end lag on her throws, and THEN created a DI mixup between them, AND THEN gave her a nair buff, ZSS would literally be without any kind of weakness. to have that kind of character with such amazing mobility who can land grabs with such ease, and fend off approaches with insane disjoint, who then would also have a devastating grab game, with kill moves like bair and fair connecting right out of it, it would just be completely overpowered. what would be her weakness? she literally wouldnt have one. at the moment, her weakness is that her ability to transition into kills from combos is relatively percent tight, aka marth syndrome. but for someone of her speed, disjoint, recovery, and mobility, does that not make sense?? maybe nair is smaller than it was before, but it still offers good disjoint for the first two frames its out if youre moving forward. if youre not moving forward it actually offers insane disjoint. all that means is that you have to be more precise when using it. ZSS is far from not having an approach option, in fact i think thats just an erroneous statement.

forgive if im a bit unsympathetic here, but I just think too much is being asked for. its one thing to ask for a tweak or two, but its another thing to ask for several heavy buffs. in terms of her grab game, you could compare to other characters like wolf and shiek who DO have amazing kill combos from them. sure, wolf and shiek have that, but does that mean that ZSS needs it, or deserves it? no. she has other attributes like an amazing recovery and disjointed spacing moves (that give you combos btw) to expand her play in different areas. if you gave her a grab game like them, it just doesnt make sense. atm, she can get her tech chases plenty fine between dthrow and uthrow on FFers. does she get a guarenteed set up off every throw every time? no. but after a couple throws (which she has not problem getting), youre very likely to make the right read and get your combo, which can lead to a kill. its certainly a weak point, but the fact that she has to work for that set up creates her weakness.

my bottom line is that it doesnt make sense for ZSS to get the best of all worlds when it comes to grab set ups, disjointed range, and speed/mobility. its like making fox and falco have a mid range normal falling speed yet letting them retain their quick fast falling abilities. it would just remove the dynamic of playing around their weakness.

ignore me if you want but i make some very valid points that i dont think you can ignore.

 

[Legit]

Ive read the thread, and Ive read their posts

I still feel that everyone is just sore over the nerfs, and not aware of how the changes fall into 3.5s scope.

That proves that you haven't read the thread.... lol

We're not asking for OP grabs that let us get any kind of followup out of a throw that we want. We literally just want a DI mixup between them.

atm, she can get her tech chases plenty fine between dthrow and uthrow on FFers. does she get a guarenteed set up off every throw every time? no. but after a couple throws (which she has not problem getting), youre very likely to make the right read and get your combo, which can lead to a kill.

Im really not understanding everyones problem with dthrow.. uthrow i can understand to an extent, although it does the same thing dthrow does just with FFers. dthrow is a legit tech chase. other characters like kirby and MK got the same treatment to their tech chase throws. youve easily got 6+ frames of advantage at low-mid percents on standard weight/fallspeed characters. with her insane speed, its not that hard to get a follow up from a read. It IS a legit tech chase option in the scope of 3.5.

It is most definitely not a legit tech chase option. Against any player who knows anything about ZSS, at most %'s, ZSS can get a guaranteed setup off dthrow 0% of the time. If you read the thread, you'd know there was extensive testing done and it's extremely easy to DI the dthrow (thanks, no DI mixup) in such a way that one can get out of hitstun before touching the ground, and they are thrown far enough away to where ZSS can't catch up before that happens because of the completely unnecessary endlag. Uthrow is so busted that it isn't even worth using unless you're below a platform. Her grabs aren't bad, they're BROKEN.

As far as asking for things that would give us no weaknesses goes.... You've yet again proven you haven't read the thread or else you'd know we've suggested other nerfs in exchange for these things.

Edit: Just realized we're in the Petition thread. A lot of the stuff in this thread came straight from the 3.5 zss discussion thread. If you haven't read that thread then that would explain your confusion. I suggest reading it if you want to be up to speed.

 

[Foo]

Come on guys, don't just shrug off @ G13_Flux like that for no reason. We (ZSS mains) already have a bad enough name as it is, and you don't need to make it worse by treating someone making legitimate points like they are one of those "lol so salty zss fine you just bad" jackasses.

Anyway, to the posts you made, flux. ZSS throws don't really work as you say. When I first start playing against good players, they actually work great. I get upair or bait out double jump with upthrow, get consistent tech chases and an occasional with dthrow, and get lots of stuff off of grabs. Then, after about 10 games, it all stops. I don't get tech chased, they thwack me out of attempted throw follow ups really safely (as if they just short hopped in front of me) and I just start fthrowing for more damage % distance until higher %, when I upthrow to put them in slight disadvantage. Same goes for regular combos. I start off basically zero to deathing them, but eventually they learn how to DI ZSS combos (different from most characters) and then I stop getting long combos and rarely link fair out of them. Proper DI against ZSS isn't standard, but it's VERY VERY effective.

I agree that shokio's changes would probably be a bit too much (we've always disagreed on how much ZSS needs), but she would still be a FAR CRY from the best character. Give her all those changes and you'd have a character slightly better than falcon. Harder to kill with, but much much better recovery. She has far more weaknesses than you give her credit for. First off, she loses HARD to CC and asdi down in general. It's almost impossible to get combos on a crouching target, or someone who asdi's down. Her dtilt loses to sheik cc until like 80% (then it just knocks her over). You probably think, "If they are holding down, just downsmash them! That is the natural counter" Too bad CC is complete BS and beats downsmash to a degree. If you CC dsmash, it reduces the stun duration DRASTICALLY to the point where CC and mashing prevents basically any follow up.

Also, she really struggles against characters that outzone her, like marth, and she will always and forever lose to spacies and falcon because she cannot rack any damage against them at all. She also has very low damage overall. She makes up for it by damage racking through combos, but that doesn't make them safer on shield. You basically have to wait until the last moment to avoid average oos options, and then you are easily swatted away. It's not terribly hard to deal with, but it limits your options. She also doesn't really threaten space in front of her. Even with an increase in nair range, it doesn't change the fact that the only way she can zone is with bair. (also, blaster doesn't help you approach at all. It's too fast and laggy. Not that it's super laggy, but it's laggy enough. It's purely a spam tool.

You responded to shokio's suggested changes, but what about mine? "I think throws should be fixed (Dthrow be an actual tech chase, more kbg on fthrow, and higher knockback on upthrow OR slightly lower lag), nair range improved, up-b range (width) improved slightly (it's absurdly small right now in some places, and just goes right through people half the time), and her down-b shouldn't restore upon being hit. She may also need some really small QOL fixes like a frame or two off of upair landing lag (why does zss need 9, but every other combo character like falcon gets 7?)"

 

[Shokio]

i think that things are being complained about that dont need to be complained about. I still feel that everyone is just sore over the nerfs, and not aware of how the changes fall into 3.5s scope. like I said, i do believe that she could use some tweaks. BUT, @ Shokio is asking for attributes that would literally make her the best character in the game. if you removed end lag on her throws, and THEN created a DI mixup between them, AND THEN gave her a nair buff, ZSS would literally be without any kind of weakness. to have that kind of character with such amazing mobility who can land grabs with such ease, and fend off approaches with insane disjoint, who then would also have a devastating grab game, with kill moves like bair and fair connecting right out of it, it would just be completely overpowered. what would be her weakness? she literally wouldnt have one. at the moment, her weakness is that her ability to transition into kills from combos is relatively percent tight, aka marth syndrome. but for someone of her speed, disjoint, recovery, and mobility, does that not make sense?? maybe nair is smaller than it was before, but it still offers good disjoint for the first two frames its out if youre moving forward. if youre not moving forward it actually offers insane disjoint. all that means is that you have to be more precise when using it. ZSS is far from not having an approach option, in fact i think thats just an erroneous statement.

Uh, LOL, no.

1) Firstly, I said remove "OR" reduce the *ADDED* frames that have been put on her throws. I said that just in-case removing the frames altogether would make them too strong, pay attention. And I put emphasis on "added" because the throws themselves have a natural endlag already from the pre-existing frames and due to weight-dependency. These frames they added to her throws are extra, EXCESSIVE endlag, they are not the entire endlag by themselves.

2) Firstly, I did say "slight" mixup, so that the person doesn't get utterly obliterated if they don't DI correctly. Basically, making her Up-Throw throw at a 90 degree would mean AT-WORST, she gets a Fair, which A) Some characters can still get out of pretty easily without SDI, it's not a guaranteed connect, still. B) You can SDI it and C) Fair is not that strong to begin with. It has the illusion of being strong because most of the time it's being used at the end of an off-stage combo, and the opponent is also DI'ing away sometimes. But you can Fair someone mid-stage at like 140% and it won't actually kill them. So getting a Fair out of a DI mixup would actually maybe be one the lightest punishes in the entire game as far as DI mixups are concerned.

Also, I didn't say anything about adjusting the knockback, meaning, at kill percents, most characters will be thrown too high to even worried about getting Bair'd.

3) What's wrong with a range buff for Nair? Omg, a character with a WHIP having a good-ranged aerial? That sounds so outlandish! /s. She needs an approach option, the Dev Team is trying to turn the whole roster into Dash-Dance Captain Falcon's and it's just not the right move at all. That's not a ridiculous request at all. Nobody in 3.0 even ever complained about Nairs range, which is why we were so shocked that it was nerfed. The problem with Nair is that it auto-combo'd into itself due to the knockback and angle........it had nothing to do with the range, it's not even in the equation.

if youre not moving forward it actually offers insane disjoint.

Why TF wouldn't you be moving forward with NAIR lmaooooo

Also, I love how almost everyone never wants to acknowledge ZSS's weaknesses:

She kinda suffers from the Marth syndrome a little bit, meaning it can be hard for her to close out stocks if she can't kill someone out of a lower-percent combo. Notice I said "kinda", cause it's not as bad as Marth has it, but it's there. She also has no reliable OoS options, outside of the standard grab OoS of course. Her recovery now is insanely punishable, regardless of distance. She has difficulty killing off the top. Crouch Cancelling DESTROYS her. Her grounded combo tools are HIGHLY punishable (up tilt, down tilt). Her best moves have lik 20 frames of endlag before they even come out, so everything has to be timed and space precisely.

Must I keep going? Restoring one, FAIR approach option and making her throws NOT complete poop wouldn't make this character top-tier. At worst, she'd be high. Nothing more.

 

[G13_Flux]

i knew this was going to happen. lol.

alright theres way too much for to fully respond to without putting in like an hour of time, but ill put in this.

I stand by that if shokios list was implemented as he stated, she would be, if not the best, too broken to maintain a thoughtful competitive design around the cast. What he is asking for is too much imo and would break the character in the scope of 3.5. if SOME of those things were implemented, I can see that as reasonable. Ive put forth my logic and im not bantering anymore with people telling me I havent read the thread, and Im starting to understand why many of the devs stopped posting here. Im seeing way too much "this character has this, so why doesnt ZSS?" yet nobody is talking about the things ZSS does have that set her well apart from other characters of like speed and mobility.

I still also stand by the fact that dthrow is fine. if they DI away, its a tech chase unless youre jiggly puff. if you dont, then there is a good mid range of percents that you can garner a follow up, and with the disjoint that nair has, you will beat out all of the infamous combo breakers in the game (peach, luigi, samus' nair, etc.) On the topic of nair, there are times when you might use it when not moving forward. its called a defensive manuever to cover space. look at the hitboxes you can produce in debug mode, and the range that it offers. theres plenty of aggressive players and characters out there that a retreating nair is waiting to eat up. again, i think nair could potentially use a slight range buff, but not on top of a grab game that has reduced endlag with the DI mixup restored. If you cant see how thats a tad OP, then i have nothing left to talk about on the matter.

is dthrow a perfect tech chase set up? no. but theres plenty of a percent range where it does work, and if youre having trouble converting of dthrow with her speed and good rushdown style aerials, then you might be making poor reads. I havent had trouble getting coversions off of it, even if it takes a couple more attempts on a read than some other characters (ZSS has a far easier time getting a grab anyways, that should make sense). ive already said I agree that uthrow could use tweaks to lag, angle, or whatever else could potentially make it a bit more usable on people besides the 4 fastest fallers in the game.

@ Foo I appreciate you at least taking heed to my comments. I didnt expect that really anyone was going to agree with all of it, though at least you understood my point that I think too much is being asked for. If i didnt get to some of your proposes in my last post, its because i was trying to cover the points most prompted me to involve myself into this warzone. I've mostly thrown my posts towards the direction of @Shokios points, though ive covered the explanation of it already. Though I know both of you are very avid supporters of wanting buffs, I hope you both can see where Im coming from on trying to reduce the amount of changes being asked for. I've already said several times i think she could use tweaks, just not on the same level that others think is required.

In general, theres a few combinations of buffs/tweaks that i could see fit to ZSS, and different iterations of several moves could fit well within the scope of potential changes. subtle things like up b tweaks and jab tweaks could go well with a slight nair range buff, but no changes to throws aside from maybe a SMALL tweak to uthrow. on the other hand, i think a recovery nerf could go well with further implementation of the potential DI mix up, so that some surivivablilty is compromised in order to have more reliable transitions into kills. This might include a slight tether range nerf, down b not being restored upon being hit, or both, depending on the severity of the change to her throw game.

past that, if you disagree with me, then feel free to ignore me. If you think dthrow needs to be changed, then thats fine, I will continue to disagree. I think most of what can be said has already been said in this thread and well have to wait for the patch to see what the dev's think is reasonable regardless. i feel like it should be coming out soon since its been 4 months since the release and theres a couple notable bugs that need fixing.

 

[Shokio]

if SOME of those things were implemented, I can see that as reasonable.

I literally listed 4 things, the 4th of which is pretty negligible and isn't a big deal and I said she doesn't even need it. Do you even realize this? I said lessen or remove the extra endlag on throws, 3.0 Nair range, and Up-Throw throwing above her instead of up-and-out. Those 3 things would throw off the balance, really man?

I still also stand by the fact that dthrow is fine. if they DI away, its a tech chase unless youre jiggly puff. if you dont, then there is a good mid range of percents that you can garner a follow up"

It doesn't matter if you stand by that. If something is flat out wrong, it's wrong, and this excerpt is dead WRONG. Take a look at the discussion thread. I literally went into debug mode with all the different weight and fall-speed classes, and many characters can get out of both teching and an aerial follow-up at 30% and lower. I did the frame-advancement and put the hitstun marker on and everything. Mario can avoid teching from down throw at 27%. Mewtwo can literally avoid teching at 0%. 0. Zelda can lightning kick you out of a down throw starting at 17%.

No matter what you feel, say, whatever, the facts are the facts - her "tech chase" throw doesn't even force techs. Not against someone who actually knows the character, and by that, I mean people think the "proper" DI is down and away, but it actually isn't.

Now, I understand you don't want to go back in forth (based off what you said and the fact that you didn't touch my reply at all), but please, anywhere you go, don't RESPOND to someone trying to debunk/nullify their points, and then say "I don't even want to fight." If you're going to be so adamant about things, say people are overreacting, etc, then expect replies when you, well, REPLY to others in the first place. Don't punch somebody in the face and then not want to fight.

(I'm not saying you're being hostile, obv. you're not, just giving an analogy here is all.)

 

[Stryker]

It doesn't matter if you stand by that. If something is flat out wrong, it's wrong, and this excerpt is dead WRONG. Take a look at the discussion thread. I literally went into debug mode with all the different weight and fall-speed classes, and many characters can get out of both teching and an aerial follow-up at 30% and lower. I did the frame-advancement and put the hitstun marker on and everything. Mario can avoid teching from down throw at 27%. Mewtwo can literally avoid teching at 0%. 0. Zelda can lightning kick you out of a down throw starting at 17%.

This is alot of what I was talking about when I mention for people to go read the thread. Both people who have posted have said "Her grab game is fine" when in reality, my training partner will punish me for throws at most percents. X.X
When you come in ignoring the work put in by all others and just adamantly stand by your "Gut feeling", you're really not going to get anywhere.
Its frustrating, because it seems like we do get the same people coming in

"You're just whining about nerfs"
"Her grab got buffed so hard that there can't be anything wrong with it, it's amazing now"

These points are continually brought up by people who, if they read the full threads, would realize, we don't care about nerfs as much as playstyle changes, and we are even willing to accept the playstyle changes if half her toolkit wasn't made unusable.

Is there a proper time for shooting lasers? Drifting full lasers seems to be the only ones that function, and that doesn't exactly fit with a speedy playstyle...
(And you know what, that last statement is probably wrong and just something that I have a "gut feeling" for. But i am happy to have someone let me know otherwise because it means I'll be able to work her laser in better.)

 

[TimeSmash]

As a suggestion for the constant problem of uninformed people, why not edit the original post with the data you've acquired (abridged, obviously) and possibly alter the title to reflect that reading the first page is necessary? That might help curtail some of this

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I'd be interested in seeing some general frame advantage numbers with respect to dthrow/uthrow. It could be pretty helpful for most people who don't have the "feel" for the character.

 

[Thor]

Put me down for 3.5 ZSS.

My thoughts:

If tech chase regrab doesn't work, buff her grab game slightly. Either by making it have higher risk reward [restore the old tether] or slightly better throws, I don't really care. If neither occurs, just making her able to cover basically every tech option with decent prediction, like Sheik dthrow, would also alleviate the problem somewhat, because free damage is free damage..

Lmaooooo, couldn't even get a follow-up at 0%, this is atrocious xD.

It's called a regrab, or crouch jab/dtilt, or dash attack. Link's dthrow at zero [or any throw at zero] doesn't combo into anything other than a tech chase, but you don't see Link mains whining that there's no followups - we regrab [and that's way riskier than it is for ZSS now] or we take the attacks can we can land - dash attack, maybe jab, MAYBE nair [which all can be CC'd]. I occasionally try fair since it's not too easy to CC and I'm not hosed if it's shielded, but Link not getting free followups at zero percent on throws [fthrow and bthrow give nothing and uthrow doesn't combo into anything either, except positional advantage vs floaties] isn't really anything to complain about, and neither is ZSS not getting her best combo starter [maybe in the game, outside of a few really silly things like Falco's shine] for free out of a grab.

Someone may have thought, "Didn't you say 3.5 is good?" Well, paralyzer...

Dash cancel is dumb. Maybe make it autocancel or be able to waveland out of it [like every other gun in the game, except I guess Samus charge shot (which is a kill move so it doesn't need to have either of those things)], but being able to run full speed behind a literal stun-inducing projectile is stupid. Yeah Fox and Falco get special autocancel guns. But numerous other characters have been designed to combo them to death [many from zero], they have projectiles that decay across distance, and their projectiles don't induce literal stun. Falco's has a short moment of hitstun, not stun that freezes you up for 15 frames or whatever, AND he's way slower than ZSS [you have to laser at almost point blank if you want a conversion]. ZSS paralyzer probably isn't ideal as it is now, but the dash cancel is just dumb and should never return unless we also restore a bunch of other really stupid 3.02 stuff, and I'm firmly against that as well [no more teleport hover nair/fair].

TL;DR Removal of dash cancelparalyzer is why I think 3.5 was a step in the right direction [so put me down for that]. Grabs could be better but if tech-chase regrab works... free percent is free percent.

 

[Vixen]

i prefer 3.02's core gameplay over 3.5