Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yo, I don't have much to contribute as I'm not a ZSS main, but as a Bowser main, I can say that her 3.02 design made that matchup very nearly unwinnable for Bowser - and the current Bowser vs ZSS matchup seems a lot more dynamic and fun for both sides, instead of a one-sided dash cancel paralyzer assault on Bowser's unmentionables.

I'm skeptical that it would have been possible to preserve her old playstyle without retaining an absurdly polarized matchup spread. Maybe it'd be possible (hell, maybe it's been presented in this thread - I haven't read the whole thing), but I don't see how. A fast, campy character with the tools she had (the DC blaster, tether grab, side b into 0-death combos) seems pretty solidly in line with exactly the kinds of things the PMDT explicitly aimed to scrap from 3.5, and for good reason.

It's not fun to play against.

Anyway, possible wavelanding out of the blaster seems like a potentially interesting change, and the local ZSS players have expressed happiness that she can maneuver more aerially while using the blaster, along with the new grab.

Doesn't her new grab kind of wreck Bowser's face anyway though?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Well, yeah, but he's always been hard countered by the 3 brain cells it takes to dash dance and grab him. Now the matchup is merely (probably, haven't played much of it) highly stacked rather than all but unwinnable.

 

[Shokio]

Doesn't her new grab kind of wreck Bowser's face anyway though?

No, actually. ZSS will actually get punished by Bowser if she tries to Up-Throw him due to the lag and now that the Down-Throw is weight-Dependant plus the 5 extra frames added to it, that throw is too slow for ZSS to get any combo string going on Bowser. She just sets him up for tech chases, like everyone else.

 

[Foo]

If bowser was able to hit through and crouch armor through blaster in 3.0, the matchup would have been much better. Bowser will always get wrecked by fast combo character no matter what, wouldn't really call that "polarized" matchups because it has more to do with bowser than ZSS. Besides, bowser's matchup spread is so bad, the ZSS matchup isn't that special.

Imo, ZSS struggled against fast fallers, in particular spacies, but fox most of all. She beat up on fatties, which most people did last patch anyhow. Other than that, her matchups felt pretty even. Bowser is probably the only character she could zero to death without atrocious DI other than maybe ganon.

 

[internetmovieguy]

While we are at it can we get a petition for _____ (insert nerfed character here) to be restored to the way they used to be?

 

[Foo]

I just remembered that I CALLED the ZSS changes almost to the T a few days before 3.5 dropped. The only big changes I didn't guess were the massive throw nerfs lol. That and I was worried bair was getting hit too.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-539#post-17967519

While we are at it can we get a petition for _____ (insert nerfed character here) to be restored to the way they used to be?

You literally responded to the thread without reading anything but the title, didn't you? Sigh, this is getting old. I'm not going to keep repeating myself for the benefit of people who like to respond to the title of a thread without so much as reading the OP.

 

[Player-3]

Can bthrow become a di mixup ala shiek that would be cool

Also i changed my mind, 3.5 zss is a better design than 3.02, but only if they fix her white alt so i can play it

 

[internetmovieguy]

You literally responded to the thread without reading anything but the title, didn't you? Sigh, this is getting old. I'm not going to keep repeating myself for the benefit of people who like to respond to the title of a thread without so much as reading the OP.

nah, i read it and i remembered that this thread used to be named something like "zzs 3.5 changes". its just that i've seen this type of compliant over and over again. look, i know how you feel i was a sonic main in 2.5b, and i felt as though the nerfs made to him were crazy! (

Their not going to change her back, so just get over it! adapt or switch mains. I picked up mario after the sonic nerfs and now he's a solid second main. i picked up sonic again once i accepted his changes.

from your posts i can see that you are here:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining <---
Depression
Acceptance


We are all here for you. so please help us help you to accept the changes made to ZSS.
To prove it, i'm going to sign your petition
I do miss the dash canceled laser; i need more time to confirm how i feel about the new grab.

 

[Foo]

nah, i read it and i remembered that this thread used to be named something like "zzs 3.5 changes". its just that i've seen this type of compliant over and over again. look, i know how you feel i was a sonic main in 2.5b, and i felt as though the nerfs made to him were crazy! (

Their not going to change her back, so just get over it! adapt or switch mains. I picked up mario after the sonic nerfs and now he's a solid second main. i picked up sonic again once i accepted his changes.

from your posts i can see that you are here:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining <---
Depression
Acceptance


We are all here for you. so please help us help you to accept the changes made to ZSS.
To prove it, i'm going to sign your petition
I do miss the dash canceled laser; i need more time to confirm how i feel about the new grab.

No, there is 3.5 ZSS discussion, another thread by me, that was made before this thread and still exists. I know you didn't read the thread, because nobody is complaining about her being nerfed. That's not the point. We want her to play in the same way as 3.02, even if that makes her suck.

Also, wasn't sonic completely busted in 2.5? Like, best character in the game busted?

It's kinda funny, I've been jokingly changing my location through the stages of grief, but if you seriously think I am going through the five stages of grief over a video game character, you should probably at least know what bargaining is. If I was offering to pay the PMDT for them to change her, then sure. I'm just stating why I think the changes weren't the best way to go. If that puts me at stage 3, then anytime anyone in the entire world has an argument of any variety, they are too.

 

[Kipcom]

As someone who's mostly ignorant on ZSS and has only fought like two ZSS players ever, dash cancelling her paralyzer was dumb and so was the laser being transcendent. Then again most of my ZSS experience was from fighting her on FD. If it was toned down for 3.5, that would have been fine with me though. Just don't leave it like it was in 3.02...I just really, really hope that many of you aren't requesting it to return because it was some kind of crutch for you, though a lot of people here seem to be complaining her throws as well, so that does give me the impression that not many people were overly dependent on the laser.

As for everything else, I have no idea why they changed most of it as much as they did. She seemed mostly fine in regards to the rest of her moveset. It sucks that you guys all feel like the character got changed to the point where she doesn't feel the same, but that's the nature of nerfs and this game in general. There's always that one or two characters every patch where people complain that th character is either ruined, or way too different, so I do wish you ZSS players the best in trying to come up with ways to making the character fun for you.

 

[ph00tbag]

Yo, I don't have much to contribute as I'm not a ZSS main, but as a Bowser main, I can say that her 3.02 design made that matchup very nearly unwinnable for Bowser - and the current Bowser vs ZSS matchup seems a lot more dynamic and fun for both sides, instead of a one-sided dash cancel paralyzer assault on Bowser's unmentionables.

To an extent, I don't have a high degree of sympathy here, even as a Bowser secondary. Grapplers usually lose to zoners, often badly, and they typically do better against rushdown characters. This is something of a rule in fighting games, and it's not something that's going to go away without some drastic changes to the nature of the archetype.

I understand the frustration, but that's honestly something you need to accept when you pick up a certain archetype.

 

[Frost | Odds]

To an extent, I don't have a high degree of sympathy here, even as a Bowser secondary. Grapplers usually lose to zoners, often badly, and they typically do better against rushdown characters. This is something of a rule in fighting games, and it's not something that's going to go away without some drastic changes to the nature of the archetype.

I understand the frustration, but that's honestly something you need to accept when you pick up a certain archetype.

Typically, grapplers lose to everyone, and historically Bowser's been no exception. The status quo isn't exactly a high target to strive for with regards to balance.

To clarify, I'm not opposed to the natural balance of characters resulting in the loose circle of life thing (grapplers sort of go even with rushdown, rushdown beats zoners, zoners beat grapplers); but unwinnable crap like the matchup as it was, is simply unacceptable in a mod that apparently has balance as one of its main focuses.

Now, is it mostly the DC paralyzer (which was dumb), or the lack of transcendence on it (which was also dumb), or the new grab (which is a buff), that everyone's crying about? I'm sort of confused here.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Maybe KirbyKaze's formula is lying to me, but oro, how does laser do 9 frames of shieldstun? That require it to do 16 or 17 damage...

 

[Yeroc]

It's 3 shieldstun + 6 hitlag.

 

[Oro?!]

The hitlag is only suffered by the person shielding as well, since ZSS is moving around freely as the projectile hits shield.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

That makes sense, I was thinking it would be the same as aerials, forgot about hitpag...

 

[Shokio]

Typically, grapplers lose to everyone, and historically Bowser's been no exception. The status quo isn't exactly a high target to strive for with regards to balance.

To clarify, I'm not opposed to the natural balance of characters resulting in the loose circle of life thing (grapplers sort of go even with rushdown, rushdown beats zoners, zoners beat grapplers); but unwinnable crap like the matchup as it was, is simply unacceptable in a mod that apparently has balance as one of its main focuses.

Now, is it mostly the DC paralyzer (which was dumb), or the lack of transcendence on it (which was also dumb), or the new grab (which is a buff), that everyone's crying about? I'm sort of confused here.

The new grab is a buff since now she can grab OoS, but the buff gets nullified by the throws. You can grab just as easily as everyone else now, but with ZSS, getting a grab =/= it's time to punish. The new weight dependency on Down-Throw with the +5 frames of endlag makes your follow-up delayed and awkward feeling. A lot of the time you'll get messed up by trying to srpint out of it sooner than you actually can.

Up-Throw received +7 frames of endlag which actually results in you getting punished for performing the grab. I was just at a Smash fest last night and every time I Up-Threw a Yoshi, for instance, I actually just got Nair'd before I could even jump out of the animation. And of course Up-Throw is no longer a DI mix-up with Down-Throw, so you basically can't mindgame anyone into doing the wrong DI so you can get a combo off of Down-Throw. The same DI works for both throws. And the few times your opponent does DI improperly (literally for no reason), the last sentence of my first paragraph applies. A lot of the time they can just jump away before you can jump toward them.

But to answer your question, we don't like: The new throw angles + their endlags, and the DC laser being gone. We don't care about the lack of transcendence. We all agreed that that was silly and are glad it's gone.

Honestly though, I'd be fine with 3.5 ZSS if Up-Throw was restored as a DI mix-up for Down-Throw and the silly endlags were removed. Oh, and I'd want the frontal range of Nair restored so she can have a reliable approach option once again, while having the backswing hitbox nerfed.

 

[BJN39]

"Petition to revert ZSS's changes"

If all us Zelda mains could've banded together with a petition to prevent the worst, we wouldn't be looking at such a pathetic spread. tbh it's not like anyone complains LESS now about us anyways.

Welcome to the club ZSS mains.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Everyone seems to be highly upset about the DCP (as well as I), but I haven't found it to be as big a problem as some make it to be. Since I generally like to play with projectile based characters, the Paralyzer is something I've adapted to and learned to use sparingly, so I'm sure I've had it easier than others. I've found it to be more frustrating to deal with her end lag on throws (and the fact you can use the same DI for her arguably 2 best throws), and her nair.

Her ending lag on dthrow is pretty bad, and annoying to deal with as the Zamus player. We dont get anywhere except back to neutral vs anyone with ok DI. Seriously, I've had instances in which they didnt even DI perfectly or really close to it, just in the general direction, and it was enough to warrant that I couldnt get a follow up without having to resort to tech chasing. If that was the goal of the PMDT, then giving Zamus a tech chase throw has been accomplished. Up throw's endlag is pretty bad as well, resulting in a mid to mid high percentages throw to get a somewhat safe follow up. I believe the angles of said throws are rather bad, and while the Dev team has claimed (I will take their word for it) that the previous angles would be too godlike with a standard grab, I do not believe the current angles we have now are the most appropriate ones.

As for nair, this move sucks really bad now. I find myself resorting to uair more in a situation where nair should be appropriate. While nair did need a slight nerf in (maybe) range and (definitely) BKB, again, I feel as if we weren't given the appropriate properties for the move. The only situations in find myself using nair now is to edge guard an opponent with the upper hitboxes of the move off stage.

While I cannot offer personally offer any of my own solutions, various other users have stated what seem to be great changes that would certainly make the moves of our beloved character much better, but not at a "3.02" level that the Dev team seems to want to avoid.

So, TL;DR
- Paralyzers are a on a thin fence of just a projectile vs a bad one. Can still implement them in your playstyle/gameplan.
- End lag on up and down throws suck. Pls reduce (removal doesnt seem to be an option due to unwanted chaingrabs) lag to a more appropriate time.
- Angles of said throws suck as well. Pls fix or AT LEAST change up throw so it isn't DIable in the same manner that dthrow is.
- add a bit more BKB and more range to our precious nair.

 

[JANKX]

What if dash cancel could be restored, but acted differently? In one case, the dash cancel would completely disrupt the projectile from coming out, or in another case, the dash would nerf the stun/damage properties of the projectile. I actually stopped caring about dash cancel because the new projectiles are pretty awesome once you adapt to them (aerial drift and fast-falling are superior mobility options that assist in landing a decisive hit).

Also, I'd like to remind people to vote if they haven't done so already. It's currently 23-9 in 3.02's favor, but I swear I've seen a bit more support for 3.5 ZSS that was not explicitly stated.

 

[GeZ]

To an extent, I don't have a high degree of sympathy here, even as a Bowser secondary. Grapplers usually lose to zoners, often badly, and they typically do better against rushdown characters. This is something of a rule in fighting games, and it's not something that's going to go away without some drastic changes to the nature of the archetype.

I understand the frustration, but that's honestly something you need to accept when you pick up a certain archetype.

Bowser isn't a grappler though. Very few characters in the smash series can really claim to be grapplers honestly, so it's usually a misuse of terms.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I think zss should be like 3.02, but That would make zss a very high tier character.

and shokio, when are you planning on going to another tournament?

 

[Shokio]

What if dash cancel could be restored, but acted differently? In one case, the dash cancel would completely disrupt the projectile from coming out, or in another case, the dash would nerf the stun/damage properties of the projectile. I actually stopped caring about dash cancel because the new projectiles are pretty awesome once you adapt to them (aerial drift and fast-falling are superior mobility options that assist in landing a decisive hit).

Also, I'd like to remind people to vote if they haven't done so already. It's currently 23-9 in 3.02's favor, but I swear I've seen a bit more support for 3.5 ZSS that was not explicitly stated.

Honestly, the lack of Dash Cancel isn't as bad as her new throw game. Most of time I'm talking about the Dash Cancel, it's on behalf of everyone else who is bummed about it's removal. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that it's gone, but only because it was 1 of 2 of her only approach options and because it tampers with her overall mobility. It's hard to explain, but it's not that I miss the dash cancel because it was just so good, I miss it because it covered a role that ZSS actually needed. At the end of the day I could live without the DC if her throw game gets improved. Though, I would LOVE to be able to waveland the paralyzer like Wolf.

Can bthrow become a di mixup ala shiek that would be cool

Also i changed my mind, 3.5 zss is a better design than 3.02, but only if they fix her white alt so i can play it

You know, that's no a big deal actually. I never thought about the possibility of adjusting one of other throws. If Back-Throw got it's BKB greatly reduced and set at a higher angle, that would circumvent the problem of ZSS no longer being able to mindgame an opponent into a combo throw. And the Dev Team will still be able to keep the Down Throw tech chase that they want.

Either way though, the endlag on both Up and Down Throw needa go away, or at the very least get significantly reduced.
D-Thow: 5 -> 2 frames of extra endlag?
Up-Throw: 7 -> 3-4 frames of extra endlag?

@ MudkipUniverse Infinity and Beyond this Thursday, if we have one. Why?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Honestly, the lack of Dash Cancel isn't as bad as her new throw game. Most of time I'm talking about the Dash Cancel, it's on behalf of everyone else who is bummed about it's removal. Don't get me wrong, I don't like that it's gone, but only because it was 1 of 2 of her only approach options and because it tampers with her overall mobility. It's hard to explain, but it's not that I miss the dash cancel because it was just so good, I miss it because it covered a role that ZSS actually needed. At the end of the day I could live without the DC if her throw game gets improved. Though, I would LOVE to be able to waveland the paralyzer like Wolf.



You know, that's no a big deal actually. I never thought about the possibility of adjusting one of other throws. If Back-Throw got it's BKB greatly reduced and set at a higher angle, that would circumvent the problem of ZSS no longer being able to mindgame an opponent into a combo throw. And the Dev Team will still be able to keep the Down Throw tech chase that they want.

Either way though, the endlag on both Up and Down Throw needa go away, or at the very least get significantly reduced.
D-Thow: 5 -> 2 frames of extra endlag?
Up-Throw: 7 -> 3-4 frames of extra endlag?

@ MudkipUniverse Infinity and Beyond this Thursday, if we have one. Why?

because I have not seen you at IaB in a while.

and btw I also hope the throws are buffed in the next update

 

[Stryker]

"Petition to revert ZSS's changes"

If all us Zelda mains could've banded together with a petition to prevent the worst, we wouldn't be looking at such a pathetic spread. tbh it's not like anyone complains LESS now about us anyways.

Welcome to the club ZSS mains.

At least you got something in return.
Yeah, you're side b is different, which sucks, but now at least you have an interesting, and completely new mechanic to play wtih.

ZSS gets a shiney new grab with throws that don't function, and a paralyzer that is so bad that it's better off ignored. And again, it's been mentioned 1002 times now, but zss players don't care that paralyzer clanks or that her ariels got nerfed, We care that these new changes changed her playstyle, similar to the way zelda had hers change, except ZSS wasn't given any consolation.

 

[Shokio]

because I have not seen you at IaB in a while.

and btw I also hope the throws are buffed in the next update

Oh. Yeah. I lost some of my motivation to play during the last 45 days. Nothing really happened. I just wanted to prioritize work and take some time out to play other games. It was picking back up, but then 3.5 ZSS happened so it dropped back down again lol. It's picking back up again though. Like I said I'll be going to I&B this week if we have one.

@ Stryker @ BJN39 As previously stated before, I don't think comparing "ruined" characters is going to be very productive.

 

[G13_Flux]

What if dash cancel could be restored, but acted differently? In one case, the dash cancel would completely disrupt the projectile from coming out, or in another case, the dash would nerf the stun/damage properties of the projectile. I actually stopped caring about dash cancel because the new projectiles are pretty awesome once you adapt to them (aerial drift and fast-falling are superior mobility options that assist in landing a decisive hit).

Also, I'd like to remind people to vote if they haven't done so already. It's currently 23-9 in 3.02's favor, but I swear I've seen a bit more support for 3.5 ZSS that was not explicitly stated.

you cant nerf shield stun properties unless you nerf the damage, and even at 1 damage your opponent is still stuck in shield stun for 2 frames (compared to 4 frames at 5% damage.. not a huge difference). the main issue, like was explained, is that they are trying to keep easy approach options from allowing you to grab your opponent while theyre still in shield stun. i have to agree that the only efficient way to deal with it is how they did it. everyone thinks now that ZSS has lost her approach game because of it, but i think it just serves a different role, as a projectile that youre going to throw out once youve got a slight advantage in order to help you gain even more advantage, as opposed to throwing it out from the get-go.

i have put out support for the relative functionality of ZSS as whole atm, trying to put forth arguments as to why i think she is still a good character and not dead. im not going to vote though because im not as attatched to the character, and if the people that really love her and did so in 3.02 would like her reverted somewhat, I am all for that. in her current form, i think she could use some tweaks to finalize her, and I do enjoy playing her, but i would enjoy her previous playstyle as well being present in 3.5, and im not going to contest against that.

Either way though, the endlag on both Up and Down Throw needa go away, or at the very least get significantly reduced.
D-Thow: 5 -> 2 frames of extra endlag?
Up-Throw: 7 -> 3-4 frames of extra endlag?

ive done some testing in debug mode, and i would say that the endlag on dthrow is fine. you have plenty of time to rush towards their tech and make a read. sure, youre not going to be waiting for them when they get there, but you can easily still get follow ups with a half decent read. as for uthrow, i will agree that it could use a little less endlag. i think literally its only use atm is for tech chases on FFers, since you have a little bit more time before they land from this throw as opposed to dthrow, giving you more time for a read. but with everyone else, their hitstun ends hardly a couple frames by the time youre out of lag, and it sends them so far away and up at such an angle that they can throw out practically any aerial to stop a rush, jump away easily, or just flat out land empty before you can get to them. this i do agree should be tightened up, so the opponent has to choose more carefully how they plan to escape an aerial rushdown from ZSS. nonetheless, i am ok with its intended function.

if the devs want ZSS to have more positional throws, as opposed to combo throws, i think they could still use some further tweaking. things like bthrow i think could use more KGB, and fthrow should be maybe the same or maybe more damage so that theres some kind of incentive to mix up her throw game. i am ok, like ive said, with their conceptual design of how her throws work, but i still dont think theres any throw at the moment that has any use really besides dthrow, and the occasional bthrow to get them offstage (which its not amazing at really).

 

[ph00tbag]

Typically, grapplers lose to everyone, and historically Bowser's been no exception. The status quo isn't exactly a high target to strive for with regards to balance.

To clarify, I'm not opposed to the natural balance of characters resulting in the loose circle of life thing (grapplers sort of go even with rushdown, rushdown beats zoners, zoners beat grapplers); but unwinnable crap like the matchup as it was, is simply unacceptable in a mod that apparently has balance as one of its main focuses.

Fair enough. That said, overall balance, as a goal, doesn't actually preclude an unwinnable match-up or two. Indeed, you can look at a game like Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, which is widely regarded as one of the most balanced fighting games ever made. Potemkin is considered a high tier character, and players like FAB used him frequently to great success. He even had a 7/3 match-up against Slayer, who was one of the stronger characters in the game. Despite that, Potemkin had one of the worst match-ups in the game against Bridget, who was one of the worst characters in the game (a relative term in this case). On a micro scale, this would appear to be imbalanced. But when you pull out to view the game as a whole, it's a small bump in an otherwise very stable, but constantly evolving game, and even helps to keep a character with a ridiculously strong option ("Having a Potemkin Buster," was a prerequisite to being high tier in one of the game's tier lists) in check.

Most of the talk about making PM balanced being a main goal of the game never sat well with me, since the PMBR never addressed the systematic problems Melee had which led to some characters being exceptionally weak. I feel like Melee's engine problems should be addressed, instead of taking away things that make characters feel cohesive

Now, is it mostly the DC paralyzer (which was dumb), or the lack of transcendence on it (which was also dumb), or the new grab (which is a buff), that everyone's crying about? I'm sort of confused here.

I think it's mostly the grab, actually. It is, strictly speaking, a buff, yes. But, as I predicted two years ago, it had multiple ramifications on ZSS's game plan, including forcing decisions like removing DC Paralyzer, that drastically altered the way ZSS played, in a way that most people here feel is significantly less interesting. She feels tremendously generic, and the grab change is right there at the middle of all of it.

Bowser isn't a grappler though. Very few characters in the smash series can really claim to be grapplers honestly, so it's usually a misuse of terms.

I don't really feel like getting into a more-pedantic-than-thou contest, today. Suffice it to say, Bowser shares a number of strengths and weakness with archetypical grapplers. If you don't agree with a strict interpretation of the terms I use, accept them as an appropriate shorthand. If you're not willing to do that, then I don't understand why you're still here.

 

[Foo]

On the topic of grabs, I actually don't mind dthrow actually being a tech chase throw, and I don't mind ZSS not having DI mixups. I just want the tech chase throw to ACTUALLY WORK. Unless they are fast fallers, they can act before they hit the ground at mid-high%s. If they are floaty, they can DI out of follow up AND tech chase. Up throw would be completely fine if the lag frames were slightly lower. As for Dthrow, I'd like to see it trajectory lowered further, to make it a true tech chase throw. Generally, fthrow and dthrow are interchangable, and just send them out of reach in front of you. Upthrow can lead into some follow ups at the right% and generally puts them above you, which is nice.

@ BJN39

We don't want to revert the changes, we want to restore her playstyle. It boils down to

1. Bring back dash cancel from 3.02, but nerfed.
2. Give her back her old grab and throws (this would probably be an overall nerf imo)
3. Make nair range not ass
4. Tweak whatever else is needed for balance.

The problem isn't that we think she sucks now, quite the contrary. It's that her fun got nerfed. She was made into a standard speedster. Basically captain falcon with survivability and a little range in place of kill power and super speed. The only thing that's "bad" is her throws. They work less often than 3.02 fair.

The ONLY thing I want, and what most others want, is for her fun to be buffed. We don't think she's bad, or poorly designed, we just think this design philsophy made her boring and generic.

@ Yeroc @ G13_Flux @ Oro?! I'd imagine nerfing the shield stun would fix it quite nicely. The high hitlag is due to it being an electric attack, right? Reducing the damage a touch and changing the attack type would drop it to 6 frames, right? That combined with a faster projectile speed and being clankable would make it balanced right? Perhaps add laser damage decay? Not sure exactly how everything works, though. I personally wouldn't care if it did 1% every time, damage isn't it's purpose.


@ GeZ Someone quoted me in their sig! I feel so honored! I just hope everyone gets the irony xD

 

[Shokio]

Yes. Down-Throw is a tech chase throw now but I've been trying to explain how it's a BAD tech chase throw. You've guys have done a much better job explaining why. "If you're going to change throws, at least let them fulfill their new functionality well" is what I've been trying to say about the new throws, outside of the DI mixup being gone, of course.

 

[Oro?!]

Damage is not its purpose. Even if it wasn't as good vs shield, it would still be a problem. Falco's lasers have been nerfed considerably and are still a huge problem. I would rather not have comparisons drawn between a detestable mechanic like Falco lasers and ZSS lasers.

There is no chance dash cancel is coming back.

Also @ ph00tbag , as a Slayer main, it is one of my favorite matchups in AC+. The level of spacing and mixups required to avoid buster spam is really thought provoking. I can see why it was labeled as a 7/3 matchup, but it was never seen as unwinnable, and Japanese Slayers regularly overcame the odds.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Someone mentioned that in the past ZSS could only dash forwards on a cancel. If lack of commitment and counterplay are considered issues, then logically it seems like increasing her commitment to a dash cancel would address this. Perhaps a special inactionable dash animation that transitions normally into run? I'm not sure what frame her dash to run is on, but if it's late enough (15ish frames?) that seems like it'd do the trick with a timing that we're already familiar with.

Additionally, knock about 10 frames off uncharged shot duration and 20ish off charged. Maybe adjust properties to tailor effects on shield if necessary. The new laser speeds already dispel much of the frame advantage she previously had on block because she can't follow them as closely.

If she's forced to keep moving forward and can neither shield nor attack during that time then she puts herself at greater risk (powershields, reflectors, any option that goes through or around the laser, etc) than she would staying still. So now she has to decide between a safe option with minimal gains (standing still) or taking a riskier, but more rewarding option (approaching behind the laser).

Dash cancel paralyzer gets a lot of the discussion time for various reasons, but I do think her grab should be reverted as well. Despite PMDT statements to the contrary, the tether grab better fits her design (her "defense" is to run like a *****), and I'm of the opinion that its drawbacks are overstated due to the way it interacted with the rest of her kit. I'm not just talking about paralyzer or dsmash either. It buffs some parts of her gameplay, simplifies others, and is arguably a nerf at times even without looking at her throws.

EDIT: ...Or that.

 

[Oro?!]

When you have to make that many concessions for a mechanic to actually exist, then there is likely a problem with the mechanic.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Eh, I was basically spitballing. I figured you'd all made up your mind on this a while ago.

Guess we'll see what the bugfix patch brings.

 

[GeZ]

I don't really feel like getting into a more-pedantic-than-thou contest, today. Suffice it to say, Bowser shares a number of strengths and weakness with archetypical grapplers. If you don't agree with a strict interpretation of the terms I use, accept them as an appropriate shorthand. If you're not willing to do that, then I don't understand why you're still here.

It's a simple correction to not cause confusion among players who are making the jump from traditional fighters.

I'm not going to have a hernia over it, but it'd cause less confusion of you just refrained from using it, because it fits only very loosely.

Also take a chill pill ph00t. Permanent kill-mode when posting isn't a good look for anyone.

Edit: @ Foo I saw it in a thread a while ago and thought it was too good to pass up.

Also in regards to the subject the thread is about, I understand that a lot of people are mad because it removed a defining feature from a character, but you guys should understand that the way a lot of other fighting games handle this type of thing, that is, diversity of characters, is by fine tuning the way that specific tool works, rather than providing an exception in the usual design ruling.

An example is Gouken in Street Fighter. They wanted him to have an above average zoning game, so they tuned his fireballs to have very low endlag, rather than letting him counter out of them, or something equally strange. This way the game is more cohesive and understandable, as its rules of design are more omni-applicable, and through that more quickly/ intuitively grasped.

 

[ph00tbag]

Also @ ph00tbag , as a Slayer main, it is one of my favorite matchups in AC+. The level of spacing and mixups required to avoid buster spam is really thought provoking. I can see why it was labeled as a 7/3 matchup, but it was never seen as unwinnable, and Japanese Slayers regularly overcame the odds.

I was talking about the Pot v Bridget match-up. Watching the match-up at a high level is pretty demoralizing. If Potemkin can get a grab, then yeah, it's over, but there's no reason Bridget should be close enough.

I think 7/3 is a pretty extreme number for the Slayer match-up, personally. But I can definitely understand how it was rough.

Also take a chill pill ph00t. Permanent kill-mode when posting isn't a good look for anyone.

That wasn't kill mode. That was "no one likes a pedant" mode.

Also in regards to the subject the thread is about, I understand that a lot of people are mad because it removed a defining feature from a character, but you guys should understand that the way a lot of other fighting games handle this type of thing, that is, diversity of characters, is by fine tuning the way that specific tool works, rather than providing an exception in the usual design ruling.

Not in all cases, though. Hakan can cancel his dashes with normals if he's oiled, which is a pretty clear violation of SF's existing rules. In his case, concessions are made to preserve the mechanic, because it has an interesting impact on the way Hakan is played. What we're saying here is that the mechanic's ramifications in the context of 3.02 were interesting enough that it's preservation is worth some concessions to make it worth it.

 

[GeZ]

Not in all cases, though. Hakan can cancel his dashes with normals if he's oiled, which is a pretty clear violation of SF's existing rules. In his case, concessions are made to preserve the mechanic, because it has an interesting impact on the way Hakan is played. What we're saying here is that the mechanic's ramifications in the context of 3.02 were interesting enough that it's preservation is worth some concessions to make it worth it.

But because of those concessions Hakan is super polarizing and weird, and is hardly used in tournament, besides by Infiltration as a crazy counter pick/ no one knows the MU.

I don't think the same can be said for those concessions to universal design in Smash, but it seems like Oro?! is pretty set on his decision regardless.

If I were to pretend he wasn't though, I would say that the blaster cancel dash was interesting, but that I don't know much about it besides viewing how it works from a Fighting Game design perspective, so I wouldn't really vote one way or the other, but rather follow the conversation and kick in what I think once I understand both sides more.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I would rather not have comparisons drawn between a detestable mechanic like Falco lasers and ZSS lasers.

Well, thanks for actually vocalizing this anyway. Because when you talked about Dash cancel giving ZSS 'free stage-wide pressure' there is exactly one thing that came to mind as a point of comparison, but I didn't want to bring up a sore point. And now I'm glad I didn't.

 

[Oro?!]

It's just that in order to keep the dash cancel, the projectile you are cancelling would not be usable in the same way you want. It would be worse than the current projectile in 3.5. It would change her "playstyle" as much as 3.5 did.

I don't understand how one move dictates a playstyle.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

It's just that in order to keep the dash cancel, the projectile you are cancelling would not be usable in the same way you want. It would be worse than the current projectile in 3.5. It would change her "playstyle" as much as 3.5 did.

I don't understand how one move dictates a playstyle.

Maybe a lack of use of everything else zss had was what led to that conclusion?

Either way, I don't see how her grabs are bad. I mean, I've read here that they don't set up for tech reads appropriately, but I don't understand how other than that they can act before hitting the ground at higher percents. Is there something else I am missing?

Edit: I meant I din't see how her throws are bad...