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Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

ph00tbag

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Dash cancel is dumb. Maybe make it autocancel or be able to waveland out of it [like every other gun in the game, except I guess Samus charge shot (which is a kill move so it doesn't need to have either of those things)], but being able to run full speed behind a literal stun-inducing projectile is stupid. Yeah Fox and Falco get special autocancel guns. But numerous other characters have been designed to combo them to death [many from zero], they have projectiles that decay across distance, and their projectiles don't induce literal stun. Falco's has a short moment of hitstun, not stun that freezes you up for 15 frames or whatever, AND he's way slower than ZSS [you have to laser at almost point blank if you want a conversion]. ZSS paralyzer probably isn't ideal as it is now, but the dash cancel is just dumb and should never return unless we also restore a bunch of other really stupid 3.02 stuff, and I'm firmly against that as well [no more teleport hover nair/fair].
Landing canceling would arguably be more polarizing. Did you know Samus can keep up with her Super Missiles, no problem? It's true, and they set up for edgeguards, and do hella damage, to boot. In reality, land canceling is arguably less balanced than dash canceling. At least with the latter, you could force the dash animation to be uninterruptable with pivots or jumps, which would give it risk. That's not really something makes sense with a land-canceled projectile. Even without that, Dash canceling forces you to move forward, even a little if you want to lose your lag.

The point is, dash canceling actually provides the designer more options for balance, and really isn't that imbalanced in and of itself. After all, what's the real reason Samus's missiles are fine and DC Paralyzer isn't? Well, it's probably because Paralyzer in 3.02 was unclankable. When the tool was first designed, this was to deal with characters like spacies/marth/sheik/falcon, who liked to just bust through clankable projectiles, nullifying their effectiveness, however it did have the consequence of making less powerful characters entirely unable to challenge the Paralyzer. With this removed, there would actually be a lot of risk to just following alongside the Paralyzer, because you could be challenged without forcing a trade. Remove the ability to jump/pivot, and you'd have a pretty well balanced move that still serves the purpose of lending a threat to ZSS's happy place in the mid-range.

And that gets back to my hugest problem with 3.5 ZSS, a problem no one's really been able to resolve for me: ZSS is happy in the mid-to-far-range. 3.5 ZSS has all these options that force her to be in this close-range position, but the rest of her kit is bad, bad, bad in that range. Her fastest jump-in is uair, but that has relatively bad land-lag, plus her fall speed makes he shffl game underwhelming. Her jab is alright for some mix-ups on sheild, but it's better at full range, where grab isn't exactly effective anymore. It loses to CC anyway. Utilt is a great gtfo and combo move, but it's a shoryu, simply put, and not really effective for any kind of CQC pressure. ZSS simply doesn't have the tools to make up-close work, and her normal grab and drastically weakened paralyzer take the teeth off of her zoning options. Her kit right now just... doesn't do anything, and the removal of long-range grab and DC Paralyzer are a big part of that. I acknowledge that Paralyzer was a bit imbalanced in its 3.02 implementation, but to say that it was on par with attacking out of teleport (or JC Magnet, or OHC, or really any really absurd **** that was only toned down rather than taken out entirely) is frankly ignorant of the options other characters have had since Melee, and dismisses a really innovative and potentially useful idea simply on the basis of novelty.
 

Thor

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Landing canceling would arguably be more polarizing. Did you know Samus can keep up with her Super Missiles, no problem? It's true, and they set up for edgeguards, and do hella damage, to boot. In reality, land canceling is arguably less balanced than dash canceling. At least with the latter, you could force the dash animation to be uninterruptable with pivots or jumps, which would give it risk. That's not really something makes sense with a land-canceled projectile. Even without that, Dash canceling forces you to move forward, even a little if you want to lose your lag.

The point is, dash canceling actually provides the designer more options for balance, and really isn't that imbalanced in and of itself. After all, what's the real reason Samus's missiles are fine and DC Paralyzer isn't? Well, it's probably because Paralyzer in 3.02 was unclankable. When the tool was first designed, this was to deal with characters like spacies/marth/sheik/falcon, who liked to just bust through clankable projectiles, nullifying their effectiveness, however it did have the consequence of making less powerful characters entirely unable to challenge the Paralyzer. With this removed, there would actually be a lot of risk to just following alongside the Paralyzer, because you could be challenged without forcing a trade. Remove the ability to jump/pivot, and you'd have a pretty well balanced move that still serves the purpose of lending a threat to ZSS's happy place in the mid-range.

And that gets back to my hugest problem with 3.5 ZSS, a problem no one's really been able to resolve for me: ZSS is happy in the mid-to-far-range. 3.5 ZSS has all these options that force her to be in this close-range position, but the rest of her kit is bad, bad, bad in that range. Her fastest jump-in is uair, but that has relatively bad land-lag, plus her fall speed makes he shffl game underwhelming. Her jab is alright for some mix-ups on sheild, but it's better at full range, where grab isn't exactly effective anymore. It loses to CC anyway. Utilt is a great gtfo and combo move, but it's a shoryu, simply put, and not really effective for any kind of CQC pressure. ZSS simply doesn't have the tools to make up-close work, and her normal grab and drastically weakened paralyzer take the teeth off of her zoning options. Her kit right now just... doesn't do anything, and the removal of long-range grab and DC Paralyzer are a big part of that. I acknowledge that Paralyzer was a bit imbalanced in its 3.02 implementation, but to say that it was on par with attacking out of teleport (or JC Magnet, or OHC, or really any really absurd **** that was only toned down rather than taken out entirely) is frankly ignorant of the options other characters have had since Melee, and dismisses a really innovative and potentially useful idea simply on the basis of novelty.
If you can wavedash that quickly and repeatedly and also not get hit out of that after doing it more than once, then you deserve to keep up with missiles.

Running can be shielded out of at any time [not continuously inducing 10 frames of lag + 4 or more frames of startup] and the missiles don't literally combo into anything [Samus can't get missile to fsmash, footstool, dsmash, or whatever for free every time a missile connects and she's close... but ZSS can]. Samus missiles are fine because they don't lock you in for any free followup. And also because you have to really good tech skill, with relatively big vulnerable motions, in order to keep up with it, instead of just hitting the dash and being able to shield at will.

Dash cancelling forces you to move forward? Oh no, that's so hard when you have a freaking laser in front of you - move forward one frame, waveland backwards and you're fine, or just DD out of it. That's really not much commitment either.

I've literally never heard of someone making the initial dash animation become uninterruptible with pivots or jumps, but that would literally only freeze you for the initial dash animation, which is STILL not very much commitment [even Marth's only lasts like 20 frames or something, which is also equivalent to about one wavedash and a SH aerial].

Dash cancelling gives an extremely fast character the option to run after a stun-inducing projectile. None of the other autocancelling projectiles do that. [Fox's induces no hitstun so he's not limiting your options in doing so].

The land-cancelling option, on the other hand, forces ZSS to become airborne in order to use her projectiles - with a dash cancel, you can start the charge and be in a position to CC anything mid-charge if you choose to do so - this is NOT an option with a land-cancellable projectile if you want the land-cancel. CCing is ridiculously good, and ZSS's dash is ridiculously good - an autocancel is more balanced because you know she'll release it closish to the ground [not on the way up] (or else be vulnerable to someone ducking and punishing] and because she loses some options about when to release it, as opposed to being able to release it and dash at will with an extremely mobile character.

Also, someone can feel free to correct me on this, but I was once told me the 3.02 dash cancel worked in either direction... is this true [I hadn't messed with it, and they told me this after I had 3.5, so I couldn't test myself]? If so, the dash cancel is even better because shoot projectile timing at will to immediately run away, whereas you have keep your momentum while jumping and charging or else you'll be retreating while doing it, and that still likely puts you out of the range of all but the most recklessly charge-in opponents, which still means it's a lot fairer.

"Relatively bad landing lag on uair?" Relative to what, float-cancelling? Unless the 3.5 changelog is lying [and it might], it has 9 frames of L-cancelled landing lag [as of 3.02]. Falco's dair has 10 frames of l-cancelled landing lag. Uair's landing lag is low.

OHCs? On-hit-cancels on Lucario weren't absurd XD. You try playing him vs Fox and you'll see he needs not only all those OHCs, but a serious neutral game buff. I don't think the character is viable right now vs someone who actually understands exactly how bad Lucario's neutral is, unless that person is literally a god at making every single aura charge [and I mean ALL of them] convert into enough damage to get another charge or two [and that's freaking difficult]. If there's another OHC you refer to, by all means tell me, but I can't think of any [except for Wolf's, and that's risky and DI-dependent so if that's absurd to you, I'll just shake my head and leave... and Sonic had one I think, but that relied on homing attack, which was rather laggy if it whiffed].

I don't think Dash cancel paralyzer is necessarily on-par with attacking out of teleport [that's just dumb], but saying JC magnet is dumb... Ness's magnet is like frame 8 and SDIable, and Lucas's is like frame 5 [and I think still SDIable, I haven't messed with it as much]. But dash cancel paralyzer gave an extremely fast character the ability to run in behind something that literally locked an opponent in place if it connected and otherwise forced them to predictably jump, get in shield, attempt a trade that often is high risk and low reward, or give up stage control, ALL without having much risk to the user - that's poor design in my opinion, and I don't think it should return. Yeah, teleport was better, but it was the same idea at the heart of it - they have to avoid it in a manner that's similar in that teleport also forced one to run away/through it [usually giving up stage control], get in shield and buffer roll, or attempt a usually risky trade - I don't think giving characters tools that effective is good design, unless we're going to implement them everywhere, and that frankly didn't happen in 3.02, and with the 3.5 design changes I really can't see it occurring.

I have no comment [besides the one about uair] on her close-up game. I haven't played her/against her enough to say much on the matter.

And one last comment [that will almost surely be unpopular] - another option is to buff all of ZSS's options except paralyzer, and just kind of ignore her neutral B. Someone probably will say "Why would you leave an almost unusable move on a character!?" And it's not that I WANT it, but let's be real - Falcon Punch is mostly unusable in high-level play [Mew2King vs Zero was so amazing precisely because Mew2King picked basically the worst landing option Falcon has, yet it worked...], but the character is still fine because his other stuff is pretty good good. Jigglypuff also has the mostly useless move sing [grab ledges backward?], so if ZSS could just become a character that's solid without paralyzer, then paralyzer could be left as a cute trick for edgeguarding [stun them offstage, footstool them or whatever] instead of trying to make paralyzer an approach tool or proper projectile.
 
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The lowest lcancel landing lag aerial in pm is 7. (Pichu has an aerial with 6 in melee iirc lol)

Having 9 frames of landing lag with a move as great at juggling as zss's u air is fine. Requesting 7 would be a bit bonkers.
 

G13_Flux

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Now, I understand you don't want to go back in forth (based off what you said and the fact that you didn't touch my reply at all), but please, anywhere you go, don't RESPOND to someone trying to debunk/nullify their points, and then say "I don't even want to fight." If you're going to be so adamant about things, say people are overreacting, etc, then expect replies when you, well, REPLY to others in the first place. Don't punch somebody in the face and then not want to fight.
this i never did. i expected that it was going to happen. i dont want words put in my mouth that way, because those quotes never appear in my posts, nor does the content in your statement reflect them. I can handle disagreement, but ive been trying to arrive at a common ground (although maybe i did so a bit too aggressively) and I feel that many are being one sided and essentially trying to gain a character without major weakness.

on dthrow, where are you getting the info that zelda can lighting kick you that early? i just tested it out in increments of 10% with multiple DIs on each percent. from my testing, at 70% she has about 5 or 6 frames when shes not in hitstun before you can nair, uair, or fair her. thats with DI down and away, which is the best DI for a floaty character against ZSSs dthrow. at lower percents you can reach her with her still being in hitstun, and its a guarenteed follow up. my point on dthrow is that I dont believe it needs to be a pure tech chase throw. you can get guarenteed follow ups until around 50-60% on midweight, mid falling speed character. with heavier characters, its tougher because the lag is longer (samus gives her a full 60 frame duration throw, and she cant net any follow ups past like, 25-30%). but even with lighter, floatier characters like peach, you can still gain follow ups before like 40%. since ZSS has a frame 4 uair, and frame 6 disjointed nair, she can beat out many traditional combo breaker moves like quick nairs. even if you cant get to your opponent while theyre in hitstun, you can read their jump/attack and punish likewise (its a very tough situation for them to get out of with such a quick ZSS). even if you get to high enough percent where zelda CAN punish you with a lightning kick, the fact that shes in the air means shes already in a terrible spot, and youre very likely to get a follow up.
 

D.C.L

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so if ZSS could just become a character that's solid without paralyzer, then paralyzer could be left as a cute trick for edgeguarding [stun them offstage, footstool them or whatever] instead of trying to make paralyzer an approach tool or proper projectile.
lol that's what I've been doing lately, every week or so i play with a couple of friends who are solid in their gameplay, but despise my ZSS with a passion. I've completely changed up my game with her after the changes (took some time getting used to) and come to realize there's no need to actually use the neutral b much...except for what you just said lol

Also since I REALLY want to post video proof of what ZSS can do I'll be sure to take my capture card and record whatever footage of me using ZSS next time I play with them. You'll probably be seeing me fighting lots of spacies and a falcon here and there.
 

Foo

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The lowest lcancel landing l

ag aerial in pm is 7. (Pichu has an aerial with 6 in melee iirc lol)

Having 9 frames of landing lag with a move as great at juggling as zss's u air is fine. Requesting 7 would be a bit bonkers.
Falcon, Marth, Mario, luigi, Lucas, metaknight, ness, samus, and probably more (many characters with no frame data threads) all have 7 frame landing lag on upairs, most of which are combo tools. A lot of them don't even need to l cancel because there isn't really any lag period. 2 extra frames to use for combos wouldn't really help all that much. It would make it more reliable to hit nair out of upair at mid %s and make her shffl more fluid. She already has a mediocre shff to begin with. 1 frame off would help too. It's just really odd that a move like that (low damage, can't kill, super weak to cc, purely for combos on a combo character) has 9 frames of landing lag. 8 would help too, 7 might not be needed. It would still only be -3 on shield (or maybe -2 i don't remember) with 7 frame LL too.

@ Thor Thor and his wall of text.

1. Dash cancel paralyzer from 3.02 would be broken in 3.5, that's agreed. Being able to go plus on shield with a commitment free transcendent projectile was pretty busted. Like, almost falco level's of busted. However, that doesn't mean it had to be totally removed. The problem was the transcendence and the fact the cancel was frame 1. If the cancel was a little later, and the projectile a little faster, and the blaster clankable, DCB would be completely. (also, 20 frames of commitment is a LOT more than most projectiles) Acting out of TP was totally busted for M2, but they didn't just remove it, they toned it down. Same goes for lots of things.

As for the jumping thing, it's pretty much better to have to jump to shoot a projectile anyway. That way you can move. If you watch oro play, you'll almost always see him jump before blaster (here's the first game I found in 3.0 where he even used blaster more than occasionally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmyKm7U5x7M) and I did the same thing. Usually I dash jumped turn-b blastered. Also, in 3.02 it had 20 frame startup. If you can't tell when it's coming out, then I don't know what to tel you.

Almost certain you could dash backwards out of blaster too.

9 frames of landing lag is relatively high for a move of it's type. Marth, falcon, lucas, ness, metaknight and mario all have 7 frame landing lag on their up air juggle tools. Dairs tend to be more laggy, and the lag on falco's spike didn't matter as much because he had a frame 1 safe on shield frame trap, and spikes have more histun off ground.

Lucas JC magnet was ******** in 3.02 because you could use it and wavedash back to be safe on shield to anything and combo into anything.

As for your closing thoughts, jiggles having a useless move isn't relevant. What's relevant is having enough useful ehough moves and maintaining character identity. It would be like if they doubled the lag jiggles fair and bair but gave her a good throw game. It would completely ruin her playstyle and wouldn't really compensate.

Anyway, the main issue we see with blaster cancel being removed isn't loss of viability as she could be good without it. What we don't like is the loss of identity and the hamfisted nerf to a move in need of some small tweaks, when almost all other characters got tweaks as well. (A good example is ike jc side-b. If they removed that and gave him some things to compensate, he could still be an ok character, but he wouldn't be PM ike).
 

Thor

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Falcon, Marth, Mario, luigi, Lucas, metaknight, ness, samus, and probably more (many characters with no frame data threads) all have 7 frame landing lag on upairs, most of which are combo tools. A lot of them don't even need to l cancel because there isn't really any lag period. 2 extra frames to use for combos wouldn't really help all that much. It would make it more reliable to hit nair out of upair at mid %s and make her shffl more fluid. She already has a mediocre shff to begin with. 1 frame off would help too. It's just really odd that a move like that (low damage, can't kill, super weak to cc, purely for combos on a combo character) has 9 frames of landing lag. 8 would help too, 7 might not be needed. It would still only be -3 on shield (or maybe -2 i don't remember) with 7 frame LL too.

@ Thor Thor and his wall of text.

1. Dash cancel paralyzer from 3.02 would be broken in 3.5, that's agreed. Being able to go plus on shield with a commitment free transcendent projectile was pretty busted. Like, almost falco level's of busted. However, that doesn't mean it had to be totally removed. The problem was the transcendence and the fact the cancel was frame 1. If the cancel was a little later, and the projectile a little faster, and the blaster clankable, DCB would be completely. (also, 20 frames of commitment is a LOT more than most projectiles) Acting out of TP was totally busted for M2, but they didn't just remove it, they toned it down. Same goes for lots of things.

As for the jumping thing, it's pretty much better to have to jump to shoot a projectile anyway. That way you can move. If you watch oro play, you'll almost always see him jump before blaster (here's the first game I found in 3.0 where he even used blaster more than occasionally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmyKm7U5x7M) and I did the same thing. Usually I dash jumped turn-b blastered. Also, in 3.02 it had 20 frame startup. If you can't tell when it's coming out, then I don't know what to tel you.

Almost certain you could dash backwards out of blaster too.

9 frames of landing lag is relatively high for a move of it's type. Marth, falcon, lucas, ness, metaknight and mario all have 7 frame landing lag on their up air juggle tools. Dairs tend to be more laggy, and the lag on falco's spike didn't matter as much because he had a frame 1 safe on shield frame trap, and spikes have more histun off ground.

Lucas JC magnet was ******** in 3.02 because you could use it and wavedash back to be safe on shield to anything and combo into anything.

As for your closing thoughts, jiggles having a useless move isn't relevant. What's relevant is having enough useful ehough moves and maintaining character identity. It would be like if they doubled the lag jiggles fair and bair but gave her a good throw game. It would completely ruin her playstyle and wouldn't really compensate.

Anyway, the main issue we see with blaster cancel being removed isn't loss of viability as she could be good without it. What we don't like is the loss of identity and the hamfisted nerf to a move in need of some small tweaks, when almost all other characters got tweaks as well. (A good example is ike jc side-b. If they removed that and gave him some things to compensate, he could still be an ok character, but he wouldn't be PM ike).
There's a lot of stuff here.

Other characters having lower landing lag on uairs doesn't mean the landing lag on ZSS's is really that high. It just means others have it better. And as Lunchables pointed out, lowest landing lag is 7, so it's fine as it is. [And yes, Pichu's nair is the single move in the game with 6-frames of l-cancelled landing lag - and Pichu's autocancels leave it 2 frames of landing lag, as opposed to the general 4 frames (5 for Ganondorf/DK and 6 for Bowser)].

20 frames of commitment assumed you could somehow rig ZSS's animation to be un-pivotable and un-jumpable [and unidirectional]. I don't even think that's possible, but as it stood in 3.02 without rigging it, the commitment was nonexistent, because you could run away, run forward, or run for a few frames and wavedash wherever. Commitment was significantly less than 20 frames then [which is also about how much you have to do to SH it].

Moving while shooting isn't always better because CCing is absurdly good. ZSS has the best of both worlds with a dash cancel [since she can land and dash anyway]. An autocancel or waveland means she has to go airborne and give that protection up.

Obviously I could see the charged projectile coming, but ZSS could release it at different times to slightly throw off the opponent [release early and charge in, release early and run (this makes the commitment almost non-existent), charge and run in, etc.].

Falco's dair would still be stupidly good even without shine [jabs are good for the same type of thing, just not as safe]. Ness and Lucas have way less range on their uairs. Marth and Falcon is the "it's Melee so it's fine" logic [which doesn't even apply to Link's bomb jumping >_>], and I don't think Marth can scoop uair. I'm pretty sure MK also has less range on his uair, and the same goes for Mario. Uair may have relatively high landing lag, but 9 frames is still pretty good [Link would LOVE to have 9 frames of l-cancelled landing lag on his uair, instead of 14].

Teleport hover aerials were the problem - teleport aerials are cool [if annoying]. They entirely removed teleport hover aerials, and teleport aerials are rather obvious and have much more limited movement [you can't teleport full length or else you have to short hop first].

Was unclear you were talking about Lucas magnet [Ness magnet was fine] - yeah Lucas's was kind of dumb, to be sure, but ZSS could dash cancel paralyzer to be safe from anything [dash away or wavedash back] to be safe on shield and then combo into anything with this tool as well [it's the same idea to be honest].

You talk about character identity, but ZSS's identity [and Ike's for that matter] are still very new and malleable - it's possible the PMBR didn't like where that was leading, so they changed it, and removing the dash cancel was the best way to do that [and I'm not saying this is the case]. But Ike not having JC QD is still Ike, and ZSS not having paralyzer as a useful onstage tool is still ZSS - perhaps in nerfed forms many don't like, but they are still clearly part of PM. We probably will have to agree to disagree, but I don't think ZSS's blaster is central to her character [or whatever] the way Jigg's feet [when really I think this is only because of Melee], but rather just a part of her gamplay that fit in 3.02, but no longer fits in 3.5.
 

Shokio

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and I feel that many are being one sided and essentially trying to gain a character without major weakness.
I took the time out to discuss her flaws, but you seem to have skipped over the part like most people do. Like I pointed out in the post, throughout the duration of this thread, everyone has been ignoring ZSS's flaws. The discussion has always been "She has this and that so she can't have that cause she'd bee too good", but nobody has taken her weaknesses into account.

1) Marth syndrome (though not as severe).
2) No reliable OoS options.
3) Highly punishable recovery.
4) Has difficulty killing off the top.
5) Gets destroyed by crouch canceling.
6) A large majority of her moveset is highly punishable.
7) Her best move have like 20 frames of start-up before they actually come out.
8) Combo game is EXTREMELY easy to DI out of.
9) Has little-to-no mixup game, so if you get touched by her, you always know what to expect.
10) Fair has gotten better, but Bair is still the only reliable kill option, that is easily telegraphed.

Restoring her approach option, reducing endlag on throws, and having Up Throw throw at a 90 degree angle has no relation to these weaknesses, besides 9. What I listed were very small, simple tweaks. I have no idea why you're acting like I said give her shine or something lol.

on dthrow, where are you getting the info that zelda can lighting kick you that early? i just tested it out in increments of 10% with multiple DIs on each percent. from my testing, at 70% she has about 5 or 6 frames when shes not in hitstun before you can nair, uair, or fair her. thats with DI down and away, which is the best DI for a floaty character against ZSSs dthrow. at lower percents you can reach her with her still being in hitstun, and its a guarenteed follow up. my point on dthrow is that I dont believe it needs to be a pure tech chase throw. you can get guarenteed follow ups until around 50-60% on midweight, mid falling speed character. with heavier characters, its tougher because the lag is longer (samus gives her a full 60 frame duration throw, and she cant net any follow ups past like, 25-30%). but even with lighter, floatier characters like peach, you can still gain follow ups before like 40%. since ZSS has a frame 4 uair, and frame 6 disjointed nair, she can beat out many traditional combo breaker moves like quick nairs. even if you cant get to your opponent while theyre in hitstun, you can read their jump/attack and punish likewise (its a very tough situation for them to get out of with such a quick ZSS). even if you get to high enough percent where zelda CAN punish you with a lightning kick, the fact that shes in the air means shes already in a terrible spot, and youre very likely to get a follow up.
You must be testing incorrectly then lol. DI just away or kinda up and away with Zelda. She can get out of hitstun before hitting the ground starting at 17%. You cannot get guaranteed follow-ups with this grab (outside of maybe a DASH ATTACK at a 5-10% window), I promise you you are not testing with the right DI. The "proper" DI is meant to be down and away, but since the throw does not work as intended, depending on weight and fallspeed a lot of chars can DI just away or up and away to prevent from touching the ground as well as there being any aerial follow-up. If people have the misconception that they're SUPPOSED to DI down and away, then yeah, you'll get a tech. But anyway who knows 3.5 ZSS well can DI to where they can land as if they've been F-Throwed.
 
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ph00tbag

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If you can wavedash that quickly and repeatedly and also not get hit out of that after doing it more than once, then you deserve to keep up with missiles.

Running can be shielded out of at any time [not continuously inducing 10 frames of lag + 4 or more frames of startup] and the missiles don't literally combo into anything [Samus can't get missile to fsmash, footstool, dsmash, or whatever for free every time a missile connects and she's close... but ZSS can]. Samus missiles are fine because they don't lock you in for any free followup. And also because you have to really good tech skill, with relatively big vulnerable motions, in order to keep up with it, instead of just hitting the dash and being able to shield at will.
You're misunderstanding what's so strong about Samus being able to keep up with her missiles. It's not because she can have the missiles on top of her. It's because she can have them in front of her, and force her opponent to make certain positional commitments. If not for her wavedashing speed, this would only be true directly in front of her, but because she can move so quickly, she can force decisions with missiles from anywhere in the stage.

Now here's the thing: if missiles were unclankable, she could do all of that, as well as just keep the Missile on top of her, and take a trade, probably even with a CC--a true CC--since Samus has one of the strongest CC games in Smash. She probably wouldn't even need a follow-up, though; Missiles do 10% and have good enough knockback to cause knockdown early, and set up for edgeguards later in the stock, and those are two very important parts of Samus's gameplan. The trading is entirely my point with ZSS. It's not the fact that Samus can keep up with Missiles, it's the fact that she can be safely challenged for doing so. All of the things you bring up that make keeping up with Missiles a bad idea do so because of their clankability, not because wavedashing induces ten frames of lag.

Dash cancelling forces you to move forward? Oh no, that's so hard when you have a freaking laser in front of you - move forward one frame, waveland backwards and you're fine, or just DD out of it. That's really not much commitment either.

I've literally never heard of someone making the initial dash animation become uninterruptible with pivots or jumps, but that would literally only freeze you for the initial dash animation, which is STILL not very much commitment [even Marth's only lasts like 20 frames or something, which is also equivalent to about one wavedash and a SH aerial].
Actually, when the DC was first implemented in test builds, it wasn't possible to dash dance out of it. I know this because I played a number of test builds with Yeroc. This implementation was changed for reasons I never bothered to ask for elaboration on.

But it would be a pretty huge deal. It wouldn't just be locking you in an animation. It would be locking you in an animation that changes your positioning, which is literally the most important thing in the neutral game. Things that weren't effective where you were could possibly void all of your options. Your opponent may be able to use the opportunity to switch places on you while you're helpless to stop them. Being forced to move forward can cause major disruptions in your gameplan, especially for a character, like ZSS, who likes to keep her distance. The player would have to weigh that as a pretty big risk if they wanted the rewards the Paralyzer has to offer.

The land-cancelling option, on the other hand, forces ZSS to become airborne in order to use her projectiles - with a dash cancel, you can start the charge and be in a position to CC anything mid-charge if you choose to do so - this is NOT an option with a land-cancellable projectile if you want the land-cancel. CCing is ridiculously good, and ZSS's dash is ridiculously good - an autocancel is more balanced because you know she'll release it closish to the ground [not on the way up] (or else be vulnerable to someone ducking and punishing] and because she loses some options about when to release it, as opposed to being able to release it and dash at will with an extremely mobile character.
These are all fair points, but the point is that all of your problems with the follow-ups to a canceled paralyzer are still just as problematic, and definitely worse off compared to my suggestion. Besides, ZSS's CC game is mediocre for follow-ups and short-lived, at best, not to mention ZSS rarely moves forward into Paralyzer, and SH retreating Paralyzer has its own advantages over turnaround Paralyzer already (like being able to fire while moving), so ZSS uses that most of the time anyway.

Also, someone can feel free to correct me on this, but I was once told me the 3.02 dash cancel worked in either direction... is this true [I hadn't messed with it, and they told me this after I had 3.5, so I couldn't test myself]?
This is definitely untrue.

"Relatively bad landing lag on uair?" Relative to what, float-cancelling? Unless the 3.5 changelog is lying [and it might], it has 9 frames of L-cancelled landing lag [as of 3.02]. Falco's dair has 10 frames of l-cancelled landing lag. Uair's landing lag is low.
I was unaware that it had been lowered. Then again, You're also wrong about Falco's dair, and you appear to have missed the point.

First off, Falco's dair also has 9 frames of landing lag, but it also has one more frame of shield advantage because of its higher damage, and it can't be CC'd. Not to mention, Falco has even faster aerials in Nair and Bair, the latter of which autocancels within a short hop with late fast fall, at 22 frames. To boot, Falco can cover any disadvantageous frames on block with a one-frame attack which has safe mix-ups. ZSS has to work with a frame two jab, which itself is only safe if the opponent guesses wrong. Moreover, ZSS's lower landing lag aerials (which are still a frame late compared to Falco's Nair, for instance) come out on frames 6 and 7, making them rather poor choices if you want to win in a priority race. The point of all this is that Falco has ample tools to stay in his opponent's face safely, and can usually disengage on his own terms. ZSS has to disengage preferably sooner rather than later, if she wants to keep her advantage, and even then she may have already lost it. And that's okay! She's not a rush-down character. She's not supposed to be in her opponent's face. I'm not advocating for that, and I didn't even think it was a problem that her Uair had ten frames of lag in 3.02.

The fact is, changing her grab, then changing Paralyzer to compensate made ZSS's B and Z buttons not work with her A button, because the changes had nothing to do with the playstyle her normals promoted. She makes no sense. Anyone who has played this character from the beginning can tell you that. They may not agree with me 100% on the details of why, but they will all tell you that they can feel it, before they've even started thinking about why, that she's a hot mess. The reason why is really rooted in this change.

OHCs? On-hit-cancels on Lucario weren't absurd XD. You try playing him vs Fox and you'll see he needs not only all those OHCs, but a serious neutral game buff. I don't think the character is viable right now vs someone who actually understands exactly how bad Lucario's neutral is, unless that person is literally a god at making every single aura charge [and I mean ALL of them] convert into enough damage to get another charge or two [and that's freaking difficult]. If there's another OHC you refer to, by all means tell me, but I can't think of any [except for Wolf's, and that's risky and DI-dependent so if that's absurd to you, I'll just shake my head and leave... and Sonic had one I think, but that relied on homing attack, which was rather laggy if it whiffed].
I agree he needs a neutral game buff, because right now OHC is a crutch. But I'm not saying it's overpowered. I'm saying it has literally nothing to do with playing Smash Brothers, makes for a damn unstable balance conundrum, and even instigates a number of the problems that lead to his terrible neutral game. If you want to PM me, I can go into why I think it's a stupid mechanic that has no place in the game, but suffice it to say Lucario, and PM in general, would be much, much better off if the mechanic were gone, or at least vestigial.

I don't think Dash cancel paralyzer is necessarily on-par with attacking out of teleport [that's just dumb], but saying JC magnet is dumb... Ness's magnet is like frame 8 and SDIable, and Lucas's is like frame 5 [and I think still SDIable, I haven't messed with it as much]. But dash cancel paralyzer gave an extremely fast character the ability to run in behind something that literally locked an opponent in place if it connected and otherwise forced them to predictably jump, get in shield, attempt a trade that often is high risk and low reward, or give up stage control, ALL without having much risk to the user - that's poor design in my opinion, and I don't think it should return. Yeah, teleport was better, but it was the same idea at the heart of it - they have to avoid it in a manner that's similar in that teleport also forced one to run away/through it [usually giving up stage control], get in shield and buffer roll, or attempt a usually risky trade - I don't think giving characters tools that effective is good design, unless we're going to implement them everywhere, and that frankly didn't happen in 3.02, and with the 3.5 design changes I really can't see it occurring.
Ness's JC Magnet isn't exactly imbalanced, but it does give him a very strong tool in a position where he doesn't really have any position having strong tools. Ness is... like Axl Low. He relies on a variety of rather risky, but long-ranged pokes to try to open up mix-up opportunities, and uses those opportunities to close in and do the heavy damage up close. He doesn't want to get on top of his opponent and pressure their block--that's supposed to be unsafe. He only wants to get up close when they're knocked down, or when they're trapped in PK Fire, or once he's landed a fair or dash attack. His magnet has nothing to do with all of that. Best case scenario, it makes his design messy and uncoordinated. At worst, he gains a very strong tool in the rushdown game, and can overwhelm his opponent from anywhere on the field. Thankfully for game balance, the former case came true, but that doesn't make sloppy design not sloppy.

I don't know how you can defend Lucas's Magnet, though. That was part of what made 2.6 Lucas such a monster. In the air, it was a multi-hitting, disjointed move that was impervious to most projectiles, which could be canceled with literally no lag, into a DJC aerial, and it sets up for combos. You can't honestly sit here telling me that DC Paralyzer is broken, and think that Lucas's JC Magnet is okay.

What I'm talking about here is the fact that while these (usually silly and sloppy, but sometimes highly destructive) options were either nerfed in ways that don't deal with their core problems, or just retained with no relevant changes whatsoever, DC Paralyzer was removed entirely, rather than reworked to deal with the very real imbalances it had. The argument is that it can't be balanced, but for me that just holds no water. There's no data, no evidence, not even a solid theory-based argument for why any of these suggestions aren't even worth considering. Would Paralyzer really be so problematic if it were clankable, and ZSS could only DC after a certain uncancelable window, and could only cancel the dash out of it with dash attack or her whip grab? I fully acknowledge that 3.02 DC Paralyzer was imbalanced. But you're being pretty obstinate in not even entertaining the suggestion that there's a middle ground where it could be balanced.

And one last comment [that will almost surely be unpopular] - another option is to buff all of ZSS's options except paralyzer, and just kind of ignore her neutral B. Someone probably will say "Why would you leave an almost unusable move on a character!?" And it's not that I WANT it, but let's be real - Falcon Punch is mostly unusable in high-level play [Mew2King vs Zero was so amazing precisely because Mew2King picked basically the worst landing option Falcon has, yet it worked...], but the character is still fine because his other stuff is pretty good good. Jigglypuff also has the mostly useless move sing [grab ledges backward?], so if ZSS could just become a character that's solid without paralyzer, then paralyzer could be left as a cute trick for edgeguarding [stun them offstage, footstool them or whatever] instead of trying to make paralyzer an approach tool or proper projectile.
Insofar as buffing ZSS's throws is concerned, this is actually what Shokio and Foo are talking about. But I'm not really talking about why the character is bad. I'm talking about how she was a really unique and interesting character based around a mid-range zoning game, and now she's a really bad Captain Falcon. We already have a Captain Falcon. Why can't we have a ZSS?

I realize that question is useless. The PMDT has already said they're not changing anything. But I'm kind of tired of people acting like this backlash is childish and/or uninformed.
 
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Thor

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I will state that I misrememberd Falco's landing lag. Bair has 10 frames of landing lag, but the dair only has 9 [I had thought they both had 10, for whatever reason]. My apologies.

Also I know you can CC shine it in Melee at low percents... is this no longer possible? Sure, only spacies can shine it anyway, but if it can't be CC'd anymore, that's kind of dumb.

As for a few other things...

I still think keeping up with a stun-inducing projectile like the paralyzer, where you can short-hop and cancel it OR stay grounded and cancel the endlag is silly. That's why I still think forcing autocancels would be better [since you have to commit to the charge early in the jump or else you don't get the cancel, or else like Fox/Falco it would cancel with no laser]. I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

I also would like to point out, silly as it may be, that if you're worried about someone moving on you after you would dash cancel, you don't have to move [I thought the endlag is like 25 frames... that's kind of a lot, but at the same time, you can CC shield a followup and they have to be airborne to reach you since there's a laser in the way]. But you DO have to commit to the shorthop if you want the autocancel - it makes you commit earlier, rather than later [since the blaster has variable charge timing] and I think that's better design.

You shoot down the OHC for the reasons I think the DC is dumb - given the nature of the projectile, I'm unconvinced it's balanced. I don't like the idea of running up for free followups for landing a hit on ZSS when she's already super fast, much in the way you don't like Lucario's terrible neutral and free followups on hit [and to mention polarizing MUs, Lucario's MU vs Ganondorf is just stupid because he doesn't really lose the neutral in that MU]. I am personally a fan of OHC, much in the way you like DC - that doesn't mean they don't present problems.

I don't feel like discussing much else, so I'll entertain the notion that even with a stun-inducing projectile, they could put a DC on it... but I have to wonder how good the DC would be if you have to commit for longer than you stun someone at point-blank range [then the only followup would be dash attack, or else wait for endlag to end and do something else]... which would defeat the purpose of the DC. I suppose balancing it is possible, but it'd be tricky, and I don't think clankability is sufficient, while I've already stated that I think making the dash non-cancellable is both bizarre and might make followups still non-existent [Link's rang was clankable in 3.02, had no cancels unless you counted your opponent hitting it, and was DIable (you could avoid most followups, if not all) but it was nerfed anyway, in damage, startup, knockback, and for parts, angle]. I know they aren't the same, but they served similar purposes.

I do like the idea of delaying the dash cancel though [probably in conjunction with some other changes]... maybe 10 frames? That might be a bit high [so like 8 or 7?] but it would definitely be better than the frame 1 cancel.
 
D

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After playing some more ZSS within the past few days and playing with sethlons ZSS, I struggle to understand why people think this character should go back to 3.02

hnghhhhhhhhhh I love 3.5 zss so much, shes so much fun
 
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G13_Flux

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I took the time out to discuss her flaws, but you seem to have skipped over the part like most people do. Like I pointed out in the post, throughout the duration of this thread, everyone has been ignoring ZSS's flaws. The discussion has always been "She has this and that so she can't have that cause she'd bee too good", but nobody has taken her weaknesses into account.

1) Marth syndrome (though not as severe).
2) No reliable OoS options.
3) Highly punishable recovery.
4) Has difficulty killing off the top.
5) Gets destroyed by crouch canceling.
6) A large majority of her moveset is highly punishable.
7) Her best move have like 20 frames of start-up before they actually come out.
8) Combo game is EXTREMELY easy to DI out of.
9) Has little-to-no mixup game, so if you get touched by her, you always know what to expect.
10) Fair has gotten better, but Bair is still the only reliable kill option, that is easily telegraphed.

Restoring her approach option, reducing endlag on throws, and having Up Throw throw at a 90 degree angle has no relation to these weaknesses, besides 9. What I listed were very small, simple tweaks. I have no idea why you're acting like I said give her shine or something lol.



You must be testing incorrectly then lol. DI just away or kinda up and away with Zelda. She can get out of hitstun before hitting the ground starting at 17%. You cannot get guaranteed follow-ups with this grab (outside of maybe a DASH ATTACK at a 5-10% window), I promise you you are not testing with the right DI. The "proper" DI is meant to be down and away, but since the throw does not work as intended, depending on weight and fallspeed a lot of chars can DI just away or up and away to prevent from touching the ground as well as there being any aerial follow-up. If people have the misconception that they're SUPPOSED to DI down and away, then yeah, you'll get a tech. But anyway who knows 3.5 ZSS well can DI to where they can land as if they've been F-Throwed.
a lot of the things you listed are relatively minor. CC destroys a lot of characters, but ZSS has a projectile that works well against people that get to happy crouching, and she also has dsmash, which, although has 20 frames of startup, still works against all but the 5 fastest characters regularly. if you keep your spacing right its not a move you should exactly ignore due to its very low endlag. and again, characters with good grabs and high speed generally perform better against CCing, since its easier to take advantage of the mobility they have to sacrifice to attempt to CC you well.

saying "no" reliable OOS options is also a bit exagerated. does has have a shine, or bowsers up b OOS? no. but she has a great ranged grab and a good WD. she also has a quick up b for when the pressure is a bit tighter. its not fool proof, but she DOES have options that get the job done.

wouldnt say her recovery is highly punishable either. at least not to the extent that is below average in the scope of 3.5 recoveries. she definitely has the best recovery out of the tether characters. with a good down b to back her up (that also refreshes when hit atm), and by far the greatest tether range, she can get back pretty reliably. what she lacks is hitbox coverage with her recovery, but she makes up for that with good aerial mobility, a high second jump, the down b, and the great tether range, both horizontally and vertically.

most of what youve listed applies in some way shape or form to very significant chunk of the cast, and when considering her in the midst of everyone else in 3.5, i feel that things like 3,5,7,8,and 9 just really are either a bit exaggerated or minor. a good for instance that i see is the lack of mix up game that you say. but i think that you can get pretty creative between following up with things like a RAR nair or side b in some cases that produce KB in the opposing direction, causing incorrect DI. with nair, you can also alternate between using the huge backswing or hitting at the front, which also can force incorrect DI. additionally, if you constantly DI away to escape combos, you could throw out a fair instead, which is going to put the opponent in a pretty bad position with that kind of DI on a move with such a low angle. if you instead were talking about neutral game mix ups, not all characters have the ability to punish her ranged options so easily. the fact that she can switch between a quick DD game with grab/dashattack/dtilt punishes, and a slower, but very ranged and disjointed spacing game creates a very interesting mix up dynamic. this is why although dsmash comes out a bit slower than many other moves, it still has a very important usage when combined with other threats that ZSS causes in neutral.

in regards to the zelda thing, im going to ask you to go back and test this yourself. How exactly did you do your testing? i literally just tested this over many times, by setting the cpu to control in training mode, turning debug on obviously with hitboxes, and physically had ZSS attempt to follow up the dthrow, while holding control stick down and away, and c stick away on the controller that controls zelda. at 17%, if you dthrow zelda, and she DIs down and away, you can nair or uair her before shes able to act out of hitstun. ZSS can act on frame 49 of the dthrow and has plenty of time to pursue zelda. this is beyond snippy remarks here. while were debating this, lets at least get some information that will be useful to everyone here. because my testing is showing that you can actually follow up pretty reliably on zelda all the way up to almost 100%, and even past 100% she still wouldnt be able to lightning kick you. if you can give some insane insight to something i did wrong, let me know, but im just going to ask you to go back and test it again for the sake of consistency.

additionally, just because she can act out of hitstun before you get to her doesnt mean you can get a follow up. ZSSs aerials are great for pursing characters that attempt to jump to escape, or flat out beating any attempted combo breakers. at 90%, zelda has about 5 frames of wiggle room to jump before you can uair her. compare this to CFs dthrow that gives zelda about 3 frames of wiggle room before he can knee her. granted, the reward is different, but in this case, the odds of you getting the follow are still very very similar to the odds of falcon getting the follow up. if she jumps, you have plenty of reliable options to pursue her between uair and nair, as her options are very limited and relatively predictable. this is another area where her projectile comes into good use too, as it can cover options that she might try to take, while you can exploit its low lag to pursue covering other areas in space.
 
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D.C.L

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I took the time out to discuss her flaws, but you seem to have skipped over the part like most people do. Like I pointed out in the post, throughout the duration of this thread, everyone has been ignoring ZSS's flaws. The discussion has always been "She has this and that so she can't have that cause she'd bee too good", but nobody has taken her weaknesses into account.

1) Marth syndrome (though not as severe).
2) No reliable OoS options.
3) Highly punishable recovery.
4) Has difficulty killing off the top.
5) Gets destroyed by crouch canceling.
6) A large majority of her moveset is highly punishable.
7) Her best move have like 20 frames of start-up before they actually come out.
8) Combo game is EXTREMELY easy to DI out of.
9) Has little-to-no mixup game, so if you get touched by her, you always know what to expect.
10) Fair has gotten better, but Bair is still the only reliable kill option, that is easily telegraphed.
1) To try and get around this "Marth Syndrome", at high percents (if it happens) i've used dtilt into short-hop or full hop Up-B and use either up-air to try and get a kill off top or bair if they end up close enough or behind.
In no way should her opponents be living for a very high percent though.

2) I have to agree with you on this. Out of shield options seem limited-to-none if you ask me. Up-smash (which is kinda useless still) comes out on frame 7, up-b comes out on frame 6, and her fastest aerial for jump out of shield is up-air coming out on frame 4. She can't really do much so I do my best to make sure i don't get stuck shielding.

3) Punishable recovery? I guess. Any projectile that catches her 2nd jump will start to spell doom for her. And the reduced horizontal velocity on her initial Down B doesnt help either. But you shouldn't even be using that unless you have a double jump. The new "special tether" limit being 2 won't help at all if she gets hit twice when tether recovering. At that point, the stock is pretty much lost.

4) The one time you'll ever kill off top is using something like Up-air at high percents...so i also have to agree with this...

5) Crouch cancelling is something I've been HOPING gets fixed. There's no way a character should be crouch cancelling around the 100s.

6) When L-cancelled...
nair = 8 frame recovery
up-air = 9 recovery
bair = 8 recovery
dair = 9 recovery

This is the one sole reason why I wanted Nair to have its original distance back. That and Bair being spaced out as perfect as possible, it'll be tough to actually punish.

7) Best move? I think she actually has a lot of good moves that dont have a lot of start up.
Bair comes out on frame 7.
Up-air comes out on frame 4.
Nair comes out on frame 6.
Fair comes out on frame 6, but you want to hit with the 2nd hit, which comes out on 16.

Jab 1 comes out on frame 2. That is incredibly fast and its hitboxes are aligned properly to jab reset. And occasionally even hit from behind. And at high percents on non fast fallers you can combo it with down tilt. Speaking of which...
Down Tilt comes out on Frame 5, and can be interrupted at around frame 27. At high percents you can get a bair if your fast enough. The change on the knockback in 3.5 actually helps with this...

Ftilt aimed downward comes out on frame 9, which at high percents can ALSO be used after jab 1. Why would you use this though? Well I happen to use it after down smash on fast fallers when they are around kill percentage near the edge. The knockback keeps them at a low angle and since theyre fast fallers...well if you know how to stop their recovery then youre good to go.

Down Smash though comes out on frame 20...so its best to use this for a read, or if you get a nair as a punish on the ground into a down smash (yeah you can do that just l-cancel) on non-fast fallers. Best to already have some early damage though.

*EDIT*
i can't believe I forgot to include Fsmash. It was garbage in brawl i guess that's why I forgot. But in PM its actually a good kill move too. Comes out around frame 20. So it is kinda slow, but combos fully well from downsmash.

I'm not sure why you say her moveset, or rather her ENTIRE moveset if that's what you're saying, is relatively easy to punish. I utilize EVERY move, yes every single move ZSS has in certain situations...well maybe except for up-smash.

8) The combo game is not so bad, even with good DI from the opponent there are ways to still follow up. What ways? Well thats what you have to figure out sadly. Sorry... =/

9) I think ive already said that down throw leads to tech chase on most characters except floaties. Its like Falcon with his Dthrow and Up-throw. Get reads...thats all i can say. My friends are terrified when I read their rolls with down smash. If dthrow is not to start a mixup then I don't know what is then...

10) Want to kill with Fair? Don't use it center stage.

I've uploaded some short ZSS sample videos. They are mostly combos and what she can do. But sadly I can't post links here so it's best to navigate to my profile and visit my youtube from there.
 
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D.C.L

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@ Shokio Shokio have you gone over your testing again for ZSS's dthrow?
Testing the dthrow? Well I did some testing myself and I was able to convert a short combo with it against Zelda at around 15+%
I uploaded a short clip of it, but I still can't post links yet. Check my profile for my youtube channel to see it under the title:
Project M 3.5: Zero Suit Samus (6) - ♥ Made In Heaven ♥
 

Shokio

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@ Shokio Shokio have you gone over your testing again for ZSS's dthrow?
I haven't done any testing after my initial testing, because when I play people they do exactly what I did in my tests all the time. Denthorn, a local Mewtwo here, doesn't get tech'd at 0% percent all the time and doing a rushed aerial follow-up is both hard and risky considering he can Fair right above the ground.
 
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Shokio

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Lmao. I like how literally all the top ZSS players generally do not like 3.5 changes but everybody insists that we're crazy. You know, despite the fact that we have more time and experience with her than anyone else.
 
D

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But, the way to play this is to pay Smash 4: Run up and shield. Act like you're about to approach with something, then shield. The Roy will instinctively take a swipe at your shield to try to intercept whatever attack he thinks you're approaching with, and then you grab the sucker.
Posts like this make me question whether or not you're serious. Really? Shield grabbing Roy?

I'd love if you shield grabbed all the time vs my roy shokio, because its a really poor option.
 

Shokio

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Posts like this make me question whether or not you're serious. Really? Shield grabbing Roy?

I'd love if you shield grabbed all the time vs my roy shokio, because its a really poor option.
99% of all Roys suck, he's not fighting Sehtlons or Lunchables's. It would work for him. A fundamental technique used by anyone having trouble on getting in on swordies is baiting. If a player throws out an attack because they think they're going to snuff an approach, they will NOT space it as well as they do if they were the ones actually going on the offensive/approaching, meaning you can get a shield grab out of it. I'm only saying this out of experience.

Heck even with Sethlon, he likes to throw out random-but-not-actually-random F-Smashes, which I actually ran up and shielded a couple of times last time I played him.

Looking back at the post though, that's definitely not the best option. Punishing a baited attack with dash dancing is the more optimal thing to do. It's just that I like to give advice that isn't "just dash dance" cause that's boring and everyone shouldn't be Falcon or Marth.
 
D

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Relying on shield grab vs any disjointed character is a really, really poor piece of advice.

You literally just space and suddenly shield grabbing becomes as scrubby as rolling
 

D.C.L

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Lmao. I like how literally all the top ZSS players generally do not like 3.5 changes but everybody insists that we're crazy. You know, despite the fact that we have more time and experience with her than anyone else.
I wouldn't consider myself a top player, so I can't really agree or disagree with your statement.

3.5 zss is butt.
Yours neither...

If I considered myself "good", I would try and find a way to make 3.5 ZSS look just as good, or rather, even better than 3.02.
To me it feels as if the difficulty and struggle just increased...
 

Shokio

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I wouldn't consider myself a top player, so I can't really agree or disagree with your statement.


Yours neither...

If I considered myself "good", I would try and find a way to make 3.5 ZSS look just as good, or rather, even better than 3.02.
To me it feels as if the difficulty and struggle just increased...
Well, I was more specifically talking about the people who were/are put on her list: Oro?!, Numerics, myself, Vixen, and I'm pretty sure Jason Waterfalls generally doesn't like her changes either.

Regardless, I don't think any of us consider her BAD (outside of Vixen apparently xD), but you can still dislike a character who is actually ok/good.

But outside of us, I've noticed the obvious trend of people who mained her in 3.0 do not like her in 3.5, and people who like her in 3.5 did not like her in 3.0. It's very interesting.
 

D.C.L

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Well, I was more specifically talking about the people who were/are put on her list: Oro?!, Numerics, myself, Vixen, and I'm pretty sure Jason Waterfalls generally doesn't like her changes either.

Regardless, I don't think any of us consider her BAD (outside of Vixen apparently xD), but you can still dislike a character who is actually ok/good.

But outside of us, I've noticed the obvious trend of people who mained her in 3.0 do not like her in 3.5, and people who like her in 3.5 did not like her in 3.0. It's very interesting.
This is a reply I wanted to see, because I started in 3.02 (I'm not counting 3.0 because it was updated quite quickly). I liked 3.02 ZSS so much I dropped Roy as my main over her. After months of playing, I finally thought I was decent, almost local tournament worthy. When 3.5 dropped, the changes to her made me very sour. The most notable ones being the neutral b dash cancel, down throw, and nair distance. As I said before, I was going to drop her simply because of those changes. I didn't like them one bit. However, I decided maybe to test them out, and try and figure out why they were changed. I don't know if it's just me or not, but to my amazement I found myself doing a LOT better against spacies, sheik, and I dare say it Marth. I'm seriously hoping it's not some placebo effect.

What I want to know is, if you've found a way to get around the changes and configure your style of gameplay with 3.5 ZSS?
 

Foo

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As a bad roy, I can confirm that I get wrecked by shield grabs by characters like charizard lol. I should really start practicing my roy and making him a real character.

Anyway @ Shokio Shokio @Lunchables @ D.C.L D.C.L
Not sure exactly what oro think of the changes from a design standpoint, but this is from the skype chat, posted by Oro. I haven't seen him go in depth on his exact opinion on ZSS, but this is close enough.

"I only play ZSS at monthlies or big things now. I think she sucks so I am trying to work on other characters"

Also, I think that "sucks" doesn't really mean "sucks" but more means "Isn't very good" My main complaints about 3.5 zss are from a design standpoint and from the standpoint of half her moveset being countered by holding a direction on the control stick (I don't mean DIing out of combos) and her recovery being incredibly free to edgeguard. It is also my opinion that she is considerably on the lower part of the tier list, but I think she's exactly as far from the top tiers as she was last patch.

If I considered myself "good", I would try and find a way to make 3.5 ZSS look just as good, or rather, even better than 3.02.
To me it feels as if the difficulty and struggle just increased...
I had (and still have) this exact mindset, but I'm starting to give up on it. I feel like I've tried everything with ZSS, but there are so many flaws where there is literally nothing you can do. The only way to get better at her recovery is to get REALLY good at amsah teching (something I'm working on). No amount of playing well will make her throws work, keep people from falling out of upsmash and fair without even sding, prevent side-b from being CCable at basically any %, and etc.

Also, I do feel I have completely adapted to the 3.5 zss. I don't think I have any habits left over from 3.5, and by this point I've put in a lot more practice on 3.5 zss than on 3.02 zss.
 

Shokio

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As a bad roy, I can confirm that I get wrecked by shield grabs by characters like charizard lol. I should really start practicing my roy and making him a real character.

Anyway @ Shokio Shokio @Lunchables @ D.C.L D.C.L
Not sure exactly what oro think of the changes from a design standpoint, but this is from the skype chat, posted by Oro. I haven't seen him go in depth on his exact opinion on ZSS, but this is close enough.

"I only play ZSS at monthlies or big things now. I think she sucks so I am trying to work on other characters"

Also, I think that "sucks" doesn't really mean "sucks" but more means "Isn't very good" My main complaints about 3.5 zss are from a design standpoint and from the standpoint of half her moveset being countered by holding a direction on the control stick (I don't mean DIing out of combos) and her recovery being incredibly free to edgeguard. It is also my opinion that she is considerably on the lower part of the tier list, but I think she's exactly as far from the top tiers as she was last patch.



I had (and still have) this exact mindset, but I'm starting to give up on it. I feel like I've tried everything with ZSS, but there are so many flaws where there is literally nothing you can do. The only way to get better at her recovery is to get REALLY good at amsah teching (something I'm working on). No amount of playing well will make her throws work, keep people from falling out of upsmash and fair without even sding, prevent side-b from being CCable at basically any %, and etc.

Also, I do feel I have completely adapted to the 3.5 zss. I don't think I have any habits left over from 3.5, and by this point I've put in a lot more practice on 3.5 zss than on 3.02 zss.
Damn, I talked to him on FB and he said her changes were terrible, but he never told me he thought she was flat-out bad. Guess that speaks volume.

@ D.C.L D.C.L Pretty much what Foo said. There really no adaptation to be done. There's no way to replicate or mitigate the lack of being able to combo off a throw anymore, or the new tether nerfs, or the fact that her combos are so easy to DI out of a 3 year-old could do it. Her weaknesses/what doesn't work are pretty much set in stone. I don't really see her meta changing at all for the duration of 3.5. What we have is what we have.
 

Vixen

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ZSS does have throw combos actually. Just no good kill set ups except vs fast fallers. o.o

Also I think the only thing that's going to really crack open ZSS is if the ZSS boards stops trying to argue that fair sucks and actually practice it. I've managed to convince Oro that fair is the new thing to experiment with. Now to get the sheeple to follow.
 

Shokio

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She can combo out of down throw if they DI incorrectly, but again, there's no reason to ever DI into ZSS.....not when she's grabbed you especially. If you get a Fair out of a down throw then your opponent legitimately and utterly just ****ed up and had a blank-mind moment lol.

ZSS is one of the.....if not THE easiest character to DI against in the entire game.

And yeah, she has throw combos on the spacies and Falcon of course but that goes without saying. Any normal combo-weight person she ain't got s*** on.
 

Vixen

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define correctly. if you uthrow a decent portion of the cast you get a free uair. sometimes a nice falconesque uair chain that can end in something nice depending on DI, %, and stage. From my experience in tournament this works against characters such as Ganon/Snake, Ness/Lucas, Pit/Marth, Ike/Roy.

Later percents you also get silliness such as uthrow > weakhit boostjump plasma wire > uair/fair
 

DrinkingFood

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I'd sign this on the opposing side. I don't want her to have a dash cancel back that forces her to be reliant on that jank blaster. It SHOULD be a niche tool, as smash has always been about using mostly movement to navigate neutral, with exceptions. I'm actually playing her as one of my seconds now, I couldn't enjoy her old grab before. Her upthrow could stand to be a little less laggy tho so she can have good kill set-ups on spacies. With everything else this character has going for her, she generally deserves to have a rough time finishing stocks. If anything, PMDT should take notes in that regard from ZSS and diddy, being gods of movement and space control, and apply said notes to fox.
 
D

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Theres no more character updates coming to balance characters, the original purpose of this topic is dead. I'll take my leave:luigi:
This is incorrect. There are still going to be new releases of Project M in forms of full releases and bug fix patches which will include balance changes. Never assume this unless the PMDT makes an official message claiming so.
 

Player-3

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Well, I was more specifically talking about the people who were/are put on her list: Oro?!, Numerics, myself, Vixen, and I'm pretty sure Jason Waterfalls generally doesn't like her changes either.

Regardless, I don't think any of us consider her BAD (outside of Vixen apparently xD), but you can still dislike a character who is actually ok/good.

But outside of us, I've noticed the obvious trend of people who mained her in 3.0 do not like her in 3.5, and people who like her in 3.5 did not like her in 3.0. It's very interesting.
i... i like 3.5 zss.....
 

G13_Flux

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She can combo out of down throw if they DI incorrectly, but again, there's no reason to ever DI into ZSS.....not when she's grabbed you especially. If you get a Fair out of a down throw then your opponent legitimately and utterly just ****ed up and had a blank-mind moment lol.

ZSS is one of the.....if not THE easiest character to DI against in the entire game.

And yeah, she has throw combos on the spacies and Falcon of course but that goes without saying. Any normal combo-weight person she ain't got s*** on.
This was why I asked you to redo your testing. you thought zelda could lightning kick you out of dthtrow at 17%.. which couldnt be farther from wrong, with ANY kind of DI. she cant even do that at 110%. ZSS actually has follow ups on her for quite a good percent range. if many characters DI to where they can get out of hitstun before they tech, then they end up close enough for you to get a combo on at a fair percent range (e.g. mario, shiek, and others of that mid weight/floatiness category). heavier, floaty characters are the only ones that she has a tough time getting a follow up on, since they can DI away to get the farthest from her, still avoid being forced to tech, and their heaviness increases ZSS's throw lag time. even with these characters, its not hard to get a follow up by simply reading their combo break option, usually a nair or a jump. and most floaty characters like that (samus,yoshi,m2) have a terrible time getting back to the ground even against characters that dont have ZSSs uair. surprisingly, throwing out a paralyzer shot in the air when your opponent expects you to charge in is a great way to cover jump options and control air space. mixing between full shots and partial shots, and taking advantage of the mobility control you have over it in the air can be extremely deadly to those characters, especially if they just expended their jump. nair happens to be a great way to beat out other characters nairs because of its disjoint. your uair comes out on frame 4. what other character has a frame 4 move with that kind of coverage and combo potential? absolutely none.

if you DI away when she tries to hit you with nair or uair, you might escape a follow up. if she instead fairs though, then you forgo any chance to try and SDI out of the first hit, AND you just basically semi-spiked yourself.

often times in the air, you can link a side b after a nair, which will reverse the proper way to DI.

if youre at the ledge, and she dthrows you, you can possibly DI away to escape a follow up, but if she fthrows you instead, youve just sent yourself even farther out into terrible positioning as opposed to if you DIed up and in on the fthrow. considering recovery nerfs around the cast, this is actually relatively significant for some MUs.

she does indeed have some DI mix ups. in fact, she has more DI mixups than faclon does, one of the most notorious combo characters in the game. its one thing to say you dislike ZSS, but its another to project your disliking of her into giving out other kinds of information that arent really true. she HAS di mix ups, she HAS combos out of her throws, she HAS combos that can link to kills. her biggest weakness is needing to fish out for the correct percent ranges that will let you use those things and get a kill. characaters like shiek and CF dont have to do that because they dont have an insane recovery and several incredibly disjointed moves that combo and are pretty dang safe on block.. both of them are easier to edge guard than ZSS as well for most of the cast.

is she high tier? probably not. you could argue that she sits into a mid tier range with like 85 percent of the rest of the cast. even if she is a low tier character though, that doesnt mean that she has terrible MUs across the board. it just means that she has a few that are more difficult than some others might have, which are generally agreed upon as those with great speed and pressure on shield (lucas,fox,falco,wolf, etc). theres other characters you might throw into the mix, but she certainly doesnt have any close to unwinable MUs, and any others that you might think of will be maybe just slightly against her. she also has some that I would say are relatively strongly in her favor, as not every character can handle that kind of speed and range coverage.

TLDR: i get this info has been tossed around tons of times before, but the notion that ZSS doesnt have combos really needs to end. specifically, that she cant combo out of dthrow. its just simply incorrect. if you test in debug mode, youll see she has percent ranges on almost everyone where she can combo, and if she cant, then it forces a tech chase that is plenty fine, and you have plenty of time to make the read. with some characters, its a pretty large percent range. with others, its smaller than the average, and with a couple, it is pretty non-existent, but its still existent and effective in the scope of the entire cast. she also does have some DI mixups. are they to the extent of shiek, TL, or roy DI mixups? not quite, but they are still effective in certain scenarios. that notion needs to end as well. you can say you dont like her, but dont say shes not functional. you can say shes low tier, but that doesnt mean shes not viable. misinformation is the only thing im arguing against, especially repeated misinformation.
 
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Shokio

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you thought zelda could lightning kick you out of dthtrow at 17%.. which couldnt be farther from wrong, with ANY kind of DI. she cant even do that at 110%
Jesus, this can't be a serious sentence.

You know what, I'll go back to my brother's house to get my 2nd controller so I can record the tests I did. We got dudes on here talking about ZSS has chain grabs on people and can commonly combo them out of down throw.......despite the fact that you really NEVER see these things if you're watching an Oro, Numerics, Jason W, or Shokio video (when proper DI is used). Has it occurred to anyone as to why that is?

Again, as I said in the other thread, please play ZSS in-tourney and attempt to chain grab all of your opponents. Watch how much you get smacked for it.

Also, btw, I would just like to say that we've been criticizing how the down throw is simply a bit too laggy. Sure, initially we were mad it was changed from a combo throw into a tech chase throw, and we wanted the direct follow-up back, but we've accepted to new throw now - we just want it to do a better job with it's function. Does it *work*? Generally speaking, yes. Is it fundamentally flawed? Considering Mewtwo can prevent himself from touching the ground at 0% and Fair you, yes.

This is the bottom line.
 

DrinkingFood

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Whoever said 3.5 ZSS is sheik-lite, just lmao
Yeah, sheik-lite if she were falcon
ZSS is like 5x more mobile than sheik

Jesus, this can't be a serious sentence.
You know what, I'll go back to my brother's house to get my 2nd controller so I can record the tests I did. We got dudes on here talking about ZSS has chain grabs on people and can commonly combo them out of down throw.......despite the fact that you really NEVER see these things if you're watching an Oro, Numerics, Jason W, or Shokio video (when proper DI is used). Has it occurred to anyone as to why that is?
Again, as I said in the other thread, please play ZSS in-tourney and attempt to chain grab all of your opponents. Watch how much you get smacked for it.
Also, btw, I would just like to say that we've been criticizing how the down throw is simply a bit too laggy. Sure, initially we were mad it was changed from a combo throw into a tech chase throw, and we wanted the direct follow-up back, but we've accepted to new throw now - we just want it to do a better job with it's function. Does it *work*? Generally speaking, yes. Is it fundamentally flawed? Considering Mewtwo can prevent himself from touching the ground at 0% and Fair you, yes.
This is the bottom line.
Mewtwo is heavier and slows down the throw animation. This doesn't apply for peach and zelda as much, so ZSS does in fact have time for a follow-up. That fact that good ZSS players aren't doing it has more to do with the fact that 3.5 zss has less than 4 months of player development.
 
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Foo

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I don't really see why she gets compared to sheik at all. I meann, what about her is simmilar to sheik at all, save for being a slim female (well, maybe). I think she's kinda like falcon light, with some cool tools thrown in and a better recovery. They both rely heavily on dash dance, they both combo with nair and upair and end the combo's with fair, etc. They even have similar tech rolls and bad grounded options.

Sheik really doesn't do anything in the same way ZSS does imo.

I wanted to give up talking about ZSS to non-zss players because nobody was actually reading my posts

@ DrinkingFood DrinkingFood You realize that your video, at best, showed that there was a 3 way DI mixup that would require nearly frame perfect inputs (for half of them) and hard inputs for the other. What makes it so hard is that those regrabs had an incredibly tight window, and that is very abnormal for throws. Enough time passes for you to react to the DI that lets you regrab, and you do it too late and get twacked. You go for the regrab right away but, uh oh, they DI'd too high and you get twacked or they DI'd low and you didn't get the tech chase. Imo, the only characters her dthrow is actually good against are characters who can't DI out o f the tech chase for a while and maybe some of the light and floaties until up and away puts them too far away.

Generally, I actually like upthrow the most. If I have the chance, I almost always throw off stage (even though they are really bad offstage throws lol) just because advantage. For that same reason, I upthrow a lot if Dthrow won't get me a tech chase guaranteed. It is fairly fast, so people who haven't played me much miss the DI a decent amount, and you can get some nice combos off of bad DI upthrow if they aren't floaty. Otherwise, putting them above you is generally pretty good.

So, imo, that's what her throws are capable of, but compared to what other speedy characters can get off of throws, it's just really weak. The problem isn't that ZSS deserves to have OP throws or anything like that, it's just that they took out a lot of fun and important stuff (nair range, DC blaster) and gave her a grab game. So naturally, you'd think her throws should be at least ok, but they are bottom tier. They gave her a grab game, but basically removed her throw game. I think it'd be best for her as a character if she got some range back on nair, got a little more off of her throws, her upsmash and fair got fixed more,(like seriously, if you are not standing still, upsmash never works and why would zss ever want to stand still?), and down-b didn't refresh after being hit (but did refresh off of tether hop, like it does now)


EDIT: In case you don't know, these are the throw changes I want.

Dthrow: Lower angle and knockback to get reliable tech chases, kinda like D3 and kirby
Upthrow: More knockback and a straight up angle. Kinda like marth upthrow. All I really want is the ability to put people above you, but I don't need direct follow ups. Might need to be angled to prevent guaranteed up-b.
Fthrow and bthrow: Maybe a little lower of an angle, or more knockback.

She's still have the worst throw game in her speed class (and one of the worst in the game), but it'd be something to work with.
 
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