Or it's because no one can break pink throws. :3c
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Persona 4 Arena Ultimax: Out in NA, It's Time You Burn That Dread
- Thread starter Rutger
- Start date
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Hey, no excuses for that, but I still manage it without them most of the time.
If it works, use it!
ggs Lythium, hope I gave you some practice in all that. As always, if you have any questions about my characters or the matchup, just ask ^^
GGs, aisight! Thanks for the matches, I really appreciate it. You're definitely the best Yukiko/Kanji player that I've played against so far, so I was glad to get some experience. Sorry about running away so soon, but I've got started on my laundry.
Yukiko's got some weird gimmicks, but I feel like I was kind of starting to get the hang of how that match-up works. I feel like I got hit a lot but just not respecting how much space she can control though, haha. Kanji is... bleh, I dunno. I feel really helpless in that match-up. I don't think I have any understanding of Kanji's tools and what he can do. He's got surprisingly good oki and resets.
If you can give me any sort of critique or some advice on how to deal with either character, I would appreciate it. :3
Yukiko's got some weird gimmicks, but I feel like I was kind of starting to get the hang of how that match-up works. I feel like I got hit a lot but just not respecting how much space she can control though, haha. Kanji is... bleh, I dunno. I feel really helpless in that match-up. I don't think I have any understanding of Kanji's tools and what he can do. He's got surprisingly good oki and resets.
If you can give me any sort of critique or some advice on how to deal with either character, I would appreciate it. :3
Yukiko is definitely about her Persona being able to act so remotely that the opponent has to block pressure even at fullscreen at times. Other than avoiding any stupid setups for being stuck in unblockables, it pretty much is knowing when you're allowed to start moving and attacking again. Most of Yukiko's attacks hit mid or low, with the only overheads being her j.D/2D (Persona drill), AoA, and j.A. With the other two only coming out in obvious situations, all you really have to do is learn to react to her relatively slow AoA and block low almost any other time.
For neutral, Yukiko can prevent overzealous approaches with her fans. You were using Chain Knuckle at good times, and I believe the SB version is projectile invulnerable. Moving in with rolls can work too, and Labrys' 5C can block out some fans if you just need some time to think or if Yukiko is tossing fans from an unsafe distance (she's got quite a bit of recovery unless she jump cancels or dash cancels them, which can only happen on hit or block).
Yukiko's Dia works wonders against crossup mixups due to the infinite vertical coverage, but the horizontal range leaves something to be desired - you can safely space B moves against to avoid the hitbox while still applying oki pressure, without really having to change up your game at all.
Uh, that's all I can think of for Yukiko at the moment lol.
As far as Kanji goes, you like... never jumped. And you got caught by a whole ton of airdives. Unlike many other matchups, grapplers can be especially abusive of even blocking, but they don't have as many options to just automagically catch escape attempts. You'll notice that trying to mash him out of stuff is liable to get you killed, though, due to his great DP and 214D grab (it has a good bit of startup, but all of it is invulnerable).
Kanji's 214 series can be avoided with backdash and jump, and can sorta be beaten by DP since Labrys' just happens to outlast the 214D startup. However, mashing any other attacks out will get caught by 214D. Between the two command grabs, 214D can be rolled behind and punished, but 214C is quick enough to catch you out of the roll due to it still being counted as a grab.
Kanji's j.214 series are more for people who jump too much. You can discourage me from overusing it (or punish Kanji players who overuse it anyway) by just crouching when I'm jumping but out of range for any of my normals. Labrys' 2B is also a pretty good way to punish up close, since it will both anti-air j.b and punish j.214 whiffs. Don't get predictable with that though, since Kanji j.C will blow you up for it.
So, jumping back and backdashing are pretty good options if you're just being free to ground command grabs, but they WILL get caught by Kanji's 5A and 5B, so don't get too reliant on those either... just use them if you're expecting a grab.
When pressuring Kanji, avoid anything that leaves a gap but keeps you close, since he can and will 214D (or, in awakening, super grab) any of those. Labrys can't really keep anything airtight after 5aa, so typically you want to jump-cancel if that gets blocked. I'm serious, 5aaa will get you punished. You can safely sweep into 214A/B and get away after that, unless sweep gets IB'd. You can occasionally mix in 214A/B without the sweep, but since it leaves a definite gap before the axe connects you'll want to use that mixup sparingly at risk of getting grabbed or DP'd.
For neutral, ground swords, 5C, and 5D can create space. 5C will discourage air-dash approaches, but it can be double jump air-dived, so don't abuse it too much. j.D can zone air approaches. Approach cautiously, since just leaping in and trying for an ambiguous crossup mixup with j.B means Kanji can just go ahead and DP you for it. Speaking of which, try having a little more patience in your attacks, as using them as soon as you're in range makes timing a DP to punish them especially simple. Empty jumps and simply waiting can be really useful.
And that's that. If you want to know anything specific, point it out and I'll try to give further advice on that.
EDIT: Also Burst Kanji's Fatal combos, they deal upwards of 4000 meterless and upwards of 5000 with meter or OMB. With command grabs being unburstable, it's also probably one of the few good times to actually use Burst against Kanji.
For neutral, Yukiko can prevent overzealous approaches with her fans. You were using Chain Knuckle at good times, and I believe the SB version is projectile invulnerable. Moving in with rolls can work too, and Labrys' 5C can block out some fans if you just need some time to think or if Yukiko is tossing fans from an unsafe distance (she's got quite a bit of recovery unless she jump cancels or dash cancels them, which can only happen on hit or block).
Yukiko's Dia works wonders against crossup mixups due to the infinite vertical coverage, but the horizontal range leaves something to be desired - you can safely space B moves against to avoid the hitbox while still applying oki pressure, without really having to change up your game at all.
Uh, that's all I can think of for Yukiko at the moment lol.
As far as Kanji goes, you like... never jumped. And you got caught by a whole ton of airdives. Unlike many other matchups, grapplers can be especially abusive of even blocking, but they don't have as many options to just automagically catch escape attempts. You'll notice that trying to mash him out of stuff is liable to get you killed, though, due to his great DP and 214D grab (it has a good bit of startup, but all of it is invulnerable).
Kanji's 214 series can be avoided with backdash and jump, and can sorta be beaten by DP since Labrys' just happens to outlast the 214D startup. However, mashing any other attacks out will get caught by 214D. Between the two command grabs, 214D can be rolled behind and punished, but 214C is quick enough to catch you out of the roll due to it still being counted as a grab.
Kanji's j.214 series are more for people who jump too much. You can discourage me from overusing it (or punish Kanji players who overuse it anyway) by just crouching when I'm jumping but out of range for any of my normals. Labrys' 2B is also a pretty good way to punish up close, since it will both anti-air j.b and punish j.214 whiffs. Don't get predictable with that though, since Kanji j.C will blow you up for it.
So, jumping back and backdashing are pretty good options if you're just being free to ground command grabs, but they WILL get caught by Kanji's 5A and 5B, so don't get too reliant on those either... just use them if you're expecting a grab.
When pressuring Kanji, avoid anything that leaves a gap but keeps you close, since he can and will 214D (or, in awakening, super grab) any of those. Labrys can't really keep anything airtight after 5aa, so typically you want to jump-cancel if that gets blocked. I'm serious, 5aaa will get you punished. You can safely sweep into 214A/B and get away after that, unless sweep gets IB'd. You can occasionally mix in 214A/B without the sweep, but since it leaves a definite gap before the axe connects you'll want to use that mixup sparingly at risk of getting grabbed or DP'd.
For neutral, ground swords, 5C, and 5D can create space. 5C will discourage air-dash approaches, but it can be double jump air-dived, so don't abuse it too much. j.D can zone air approaches. Approach cautiously, since just leaping in and trying for an ambiguous crossup mixup with j.B means Kanji can just go ahead and DP you for it. Speaking of which, try having a little more patience in your attacks, as using them as soon as you're in range makes timing a DP to punish them especially simple. Empty jumps and simply waiting can be really useful.
And that's that. If you want to know anything specific, point it out and I'll try to give further advice on that.
EDIT: Also Burst Kanji's Fatal combos, they deal upwards of 4000 meterless and upwards of 5000 with meter or OMB. With command grabs being unburstable, it's also probably one of the few good times to actually use Burst against Kanji.
That's super helpful, thank you! I'll see if I can apply this the next time we play. I think I'll also check out some vids of these match-ups to see what other players do as well.
The Kanji stuff is especially awesome, I just feel like I had no idea what I was doing in those matches. So, thanks! :3
The Kanji stuff is especially awesome, I just feel like I had no idea what I was doing in those matches. So, thanks! :3
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Sorry I haven't tried to get in on any games since I've been back. Been sick since Monday so I've really just felt like doing mindless gameplay. Which is why I've only really been on Borderlands 2 and Mass Effect 3.
sakuraZaKi
The Ultimate Sore Loser ♡
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^ trust me, you'll get back to it when you need to, lol
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
^ trust me, you'll get back to it when you need to, lol
Yeah, I gots it this time.
Crossjeremiah
Smash Ace
just dont trade or get grabbed by kanji
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Not getting grabbed by Kanji's not the problem. It's his freaking Persona getting the command grab damage, lol.
I don't think trading with Kanji is that big of a deal, honestly.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Does that by chance, especially apply if you're another Kanji?
Kanji's hardest-hitting raw attack (tie between 5C, 2C, and j.C) deals 1200. While you don't want to get hit for 1200 a whole lot, it's not like trading between that and, say, Narukami's 900-damage 5C produces a whole lot of deficit. Plus, all of Kanji's C attacks are absurdly slow so it's far more likely for only one of you to actually get hit when engaging.
Personally I'd be more wary about trading with Akihiko, who can cover nearly fullscreen in an instant with a 1400 damage Corkscrew, or Chie and her stupid 2000-3000 damage Dragon Kicks.
Personally I'd be more wary about trading with Akihiko, who can cover nearly fullscreen in an instant with a 1400 damage Corkscrew, or Chie and her stupid 2000-3000 damage Dragon Kicks.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
sakuraZaKi
The Ultimate Sore Loser ♡
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I still hate Yosuke's HERPY DERP I CAN SB DASH IN YO FACE.
It's so fast I jump out my chair sometimes.
It's so fast I jump out my chair sometimes.
Crusayer
Smash Lord
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Chie raw dragon kick is a gimpyfish combo.Or raw B Raging Lion from Yu, amirite?
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
But ist it overhead that leads into higher risk/execution not so high reward combos?
Rutger
Smash Master
I wish Yosuke had Chipp's teleports, he's not all over the place enough imo. :3
sakuraZaKi
The Ultimate Sore Loser ♡
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We're talking about that Bruce Lee CAW CAW kick, right? It isn't overhead.
You will mainly use it as a combo finisher; if you're in a combo, it's safe, lol. Never seen it used raw, really. Why would you want to fly over the head of the other player that isn't an airdash? lol
Crusayer
Smash Lord
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Dragon kick is the attack where she flies upwards diagonally. It is not air unblockable nor is it an overhead nor is the hitbox absurd. It doesn't even hit standing opponents. Huge amounts of landing lag too. Getting hit by it raw is like a 100% hard read that they pressed a button in the correct air space.
I hope you guys all know who gimpyfish is >:V. This is a smash forum!
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Hm. I believe me intending to be referencing B Raging Lion and my assumption that we were comparing it to Dragon Kick may have been lost in both translation and horrible attempts at joking.
sakuraZaKi
The Ultimate Sore Loser ♡
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That really was no joke; downright clawful that I can't bear it.
You can pretend that Dragon Kick is like Raging Lion, except instead of going down like a useful dive kick it goes up like someone trying to recover in Super Smash Bros.
It still hurts, a lot, and though it's highly unlikely to ever get hit by it raw it's much more damaging than getting hit by Kanji raw 5C/2C/j.C.
It still hurts, a lot, and though it's highly unlikely to ever get hit by it raw it's much more damaging than getting hit by Kanji raw 5C/2C/j.C.
Minato
穏やかじゃない
Good thing the Narukami players that spam that online don't know they can do over 5 or 6k on Fatal...
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
You guys are all smashers, Kanji is ICs, run away and throw stuff at him.
I dair drill shined them so I don't know what you're talking about.
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
Playing OP is another valid strategy.
sakuraZaKi
The Ultimate Sore Loser ♡
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I play Marth, I can't throw anything but my pretty boy kisses.
Yea that strategy has actually never worked for me.
Since i used to play sheik
Since i used to play sheik
Fox is a better projectile though
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
Sheik is a very balanced Character.
Man, the only annoying thing about these lobbies are waiting for your next game :<
Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.
Smash Master
Wouldn't it be nice of you could training mode while you wait like on ranked?
I like watching the other matches. GGs tonight everyone.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
That would be awesome. I believe that might be a good idea.
This game is too hard lol
Haha nice on Aisight, that was a cute end.
Haha nice on Aisight, that was a cute end.
Good games, guys. Sorry about being in an IK mood tonight.