Persona 4 Arena Ultimax: Out in NA, It's Time You Burn That Dread

[LivewiresXe]

Did you at least learn from any of this? Such as why you kept getting hit and stuff? I'm just hoping you understood what went wrong in each match and also the level of difference between people. It almost sounds like you weren't correctly gauging how strong that Litchi was during the match until after you realized he made top 4. And you're at a major and you're still inexperienced. Don't think only 5 people can beat you, everyone's a threat.

And I seriously think you need to put more time into Noel and BB as a whole. It's been awhile since I've played you but you're lacking in experience on how to deal with a lot of situations. Same goes for fundamentals.

Well yeah, I mean the thing with Persona 4 is simply that I need to pick up the game a lot more. Plus, with Bang and Litchi, I've noticed a lot of things look like they hit low when it's high, or hit before/after they actually do, etc. I know there's always more time to put into it but it'll always feel weird hearing somebody say you're inexperienced not only with a series you've been playing since it came out, but with your main, that you've been using, sticking with, and even discovered a tiny bit of small (and admittedly only quasi-useful) stuff with. However, with that being said, I figure your reference was more to a sort of "experience at majors/tournaments" or one on one stress situations like that, which is true since I have to travel a good few hours to any decently sized tourneys anyway.

Fundamentals, I think, are his biggest weakness lol. People can get by with strong fundamentals even without match up knowledge but no one gets by without fundamentals.

The bit on fundamentals is kind of surprising to me. I've always thought I had a solid at worst base for them almost purely going by how many different fighting games and types I've been playing since I was like 9 and all the stuff I've learned from that. Like, lack of matchup knowledge, inexperience with high pressure situations, or lacking some of the advanced strategies/etc for certain characters? Yeah, that I could understand and get. But not having fundamentals or the basics? That's something I certainly didn't expect at all, and is something I'd have to ask you to explain or elaborate on (and that goes for anybody else who wishes to as well since more feedback is better feedback), if you wouldn't mind.

 

[Minato]

Well yeah, I mean the thing with Persona 4 is simply that I need to pick up the game a lot more. Plus, with Bang and Litchi, I've noticed a lot of things look like they hit low when it's high, or hit before/after they actually do, etc. I know there's always more time to put into it but it'll always feel weird hearing somebody say you're inexperienced not only with a series you've been playing since it came out, but with your main, that you've been using, sticking with, and even discovered a tiny bit of small (and admittedly only quasi-useful) stuff with. However, with that being said, I figure your reference was more to a sort of "experience at majors/tournaments" or one on one stress situations like that, which is true since I have to travel a good few hours to any decently sized tourneys anyway.

It's great that you kind of narrowed it down by saying you got hit by overheads and lows that look opposite of what they appear, but that isn't enough. I find excuses like "I got hit" or "I dropped my combos" are really poor examples on analyzing your mistakes. You should think even further by asking why you got put into a situation where you got hit by it.

And playing a game for years doesn't automatically make a player good. I can read a chapter in a book for homework for 3 hours, but that doesn't mean I'll be smart enough to apply it or understand all of it. And when I mean situation, I mean EVERY situation. Not once I felt that you were going to change up your gameplan in BB when you had little to no health. It was usually mash D into Assault Through on block. The only time I felt like you were going to do something different on low health was in Persona. But all it was was just Cross Slash, so I'd bait it.

The bit on fundamentals is kind of surprising to me. I've always thought I had a solid at worst base for them almost purely going by how many different fighting games and types I've been playing since I was like 9 and all the stuff I've learned from that. Like, lack of matchup knowledge, inexperience with high pressure situations, or lacking some of the advanced strategies/etc for certain characters? Yeah, that I could understand and get. But not having fundamentals or the basics? That's something I certainly didn't expect at all, and is something I'd have to ask you to explain or elaborate on (and that goes for anybody else who wishes to as well since more feedback is better feedback), if you wouldn't mind.

I'll be blunt, your fundamentals are really really lacking. You don't grasp the concept of spacing, when to push or not to push buttons, using meter correctly, and adapting to the opponent. While I know you don't play Persona much, you should be able to grasp sweep into 5D pretty fast once you know about it.

For BB, or any game, your spacing is rather awkward. I'll see full screen AoAs, DPs, or 2As where it won't even reach. You'll attempt to throw tech from a distance where even my 5B can't reach you. You don't even hitconfirm and just go into Ziocar every chance you get. You never OMC Ziocars or Ziodynes on block. Your mixup game is really weak. Again, all I see is Assault Through or run up grab from midscreen.

You're going to have to recognize these problems if you want to get better. IMO, I still have a ton of things I'm bad at in these games, but I'm at least aware of what I need to work on.

 

[Crusayer]

It's mainly the respect thing. You expect too much from your own actions while underestimating what your opponent can do. Again, I have no idea how you are in SSF4. You sound like you put in way more time into that instead so you're probably much better there. Which is weird to me since SSF4 to me looks like a game where fundamentals are VERY much required with so much footsies going on.

Your blaz and p4a play is like that of someone that has never played a human. It feels like all you've ever done is been in training mode practicing combos. Sure you can do combos, but you don't know the properties of your attacks, the range, or utility. You do things without really thinking why. Why should I press 5a here? What attacks are good at this range? What should I really be paying attention to from the opponent?

If it was your first time EVER playing against a character with absolutely NO knowledge then we can forgive you. Or perhaps you've barely ever played your own character. But you should be learning as you go on. Maybe throwing that attack on wakeup is a bad idea. Maybe jumping there wouldn't work. Maybe I should probably block that. This range doesn't feel very safe. These things you should be thinking about. Don't autopilot and be like "I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M DOING SO I'LL JUST PRESS BUTTONS HOPING IT'LL WORK."

You say you have so many years of experience, but why do when we play you, it seems like all you focus on is you. You you you. It's never them. We can somewhat forgive your narukami play (despite the no block and random stuff), but your Noel has no excuse.

You want to work with the basics. Don't jump into the super specifics. Don't go what if at every opportunity. Look at what you have. Look at what they have. Stick with things you can fall back on. Don't do strange things. Textbook play is a very very strong tactic.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm terrible at these games. Lol.

Smooth Criminal

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Well yeah, I mean the thing with Persona 4 is simply that I need to pick up the game a lot more. Plus, with Bang and Litchi, I've noticed a lot of things look like they hit low when it's high, or hit before/after they actually do, etc. I know there's always more time to put into it but it'll always feel weird hearing somebody say you're inexperienced not only with a series you've been playing since it came out, but with your main, that you've been using, sticking with, and even discovered a tiny bit of small (and admittedly only quasi-useful) stuff with. However, with that being said, I figure your reference was more to a sort of "experience at majors/tournaments" or one on one stress situations like that, which is true since I have to travel a good few hours to any decently sized tourneys anyway.

The thing with what you said here is that you aren't paying attention to anything about the other character. This is stuff you should be able to pick up relatively quickly (w/ some research). You said you've been with the game since it came out. For one, that's A LOT A LOT A LOT A LOT A LOT of time to learn the movesets of a character. Especially since even Extend has been out for quite a while.

The bit on fundamentals is kind of surprising to me. I've always thought I had a solid at worst base for them almost purely going by how many different fighting games and types I've been playing since I was like 9 and all the stuff I've learned from that. Like, lack of matchup knowledge, inexperience with high pressure situations, or lacking some of the advanced strategies/etc for certain characters? Yeah, that I could understand and get. But not having fundamentals or the basics? That's something I certainly didn't expect at all, and is something I'd have to ask you to explain or elaborate on (and that goes for anybody else who wishes to as well since more feedback is better feedback), if you wouldn't mind.

Well, can you name some fundamentals, first of all? General game commands, Sufficient execution, blocking, movesets and their properties, zoning, ground game, identifying when you can do a certain action, etc.; general ways to how you should play ANY character, basically. Some of these can be intuitive. You will want to know these VERY well. If you want something to happen, you'll have to train yourself to act so it does the moment you want it.

I found some post on fundamentals, might be helpful: http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-are-the-fundamentals.162157/#post-7117297

With that in mind, I'll agree with Minato rather strongly on your fundamentals, even if I do lack in that area myself (since this is the first fighter I've decided to play 'well', but I've been watching the fighting scene long enough to understand terminology and what fundamentals are). What I find in HOW YOU PLAY is that you really don't know what to do; you don't move very well on-screen, you don't know how to keep pressure in the corner, you throw out random grabs/supers/DPs/ziocars, and you don't block. You get like, one hit in, and you don't do anything else until you get another one hit in. We end up bombarding you with moves that you yourself DO have a chance to get out from. Your play gives the impression that you haven't learned/tuned several of the fundamentals yet.

[COLLAPSE="Sidenote"]On a sidenote: Actually, if you have a good grasp of the fundamentals, you should be able to play a lot of different characters, regardless if they are "your type". Many characters will have similar ways of doing things, and the differences that come in between them are pretty much just some tweaks of the fundamentals; you might have to play footsies more/less, you might have to zone a lot more/less to get in.[/COLLAPSE]

What fighters do you often play? Also, are you even working on your problems? How are you improving yourself? You may be able to pinpoint problems with your gameplay, but from what we see from your P4A performance - and I'll be blunt - you don't seem to be working on them at all. MORE IMPORTANTLY, do you know how to work on them, at least? I've said this before, we can and most likely will help if you want; you just have to tell us what's up.

Also, don't be afraid to lose. In many cases, the learning process is what you want to aim for. Because, let's face it, we're all going to lose, so why not make the best of it?

On a personal note, sometimes I don't even feel any inclination to win. I just want to get a couple matches in to record, and watch them maybe 3 times to find things to work on. To me, what makes fighting games (and competition in general) so fun for me is finding ways to improve the way I approach something.

 

[Umby]

I'm so going to expose Jam Stunna when I find out how to press Aigis's buttons.

ggs tonight, however briefly we played.

 

[Zankoku]

I feel bad for people with a lot of fighter experience but no fundamentals because it's going to be a hard hard time building them at that point. Too many years doing a lot of generally wrong things that happen to be situationally correct at times.

 

[LivewiresXe]

I feel bad for people with a lot of fighter experience but no fundamentals because it's going to be a hard hard time building them at that point. Too many years doing a lot of generally wrong things that happen to be situationally correct at times.

I think that might be a bit of a problem for sure. When I picked up fighters as a young kid, I didn't have people to play them with. Most of my time playing SNES games against people was on NBA Jam (which is an amazing game) or playing Turtles in Time with people. And after that it was just various stuff on the 64 too. It wasn't until Brawl came out in 2008 that I actually semi-regularly had people to play with and then it was a friend of mine every week and some other friends of ours at bi-weeklies that were 45 minutes away in the city (or sometimes 3 weeks apart). For the first 6 months, of those bi-weeklies I only once got past the first round, and that was through the other guy doing an accidental suicide.

Pretty much before a steady online, everything I learned was self-taught or from reading up on things. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, and sometimes (like when getting to Bison in Alpha 3 on Hard, thinking "just him to go then I'm done" and getting past him 45 minutes later) I'd attempt to 'force it to work' when probably it shouldn't have normally. Like, it's how I've been doing things for...I dare say almost 8 years now oddly enough.

To me, it's always been a simple case of looking at things as "if X does 1 then you do 2", or "A leads to B", or whatever in a sort of straight line of thinking. I mean, I don't know so much HOW that's flawed or what to do differently, and it sucks absolute *** saying that, but it probably needed to BE said. Like yeah, it's evident in Persona 4, where I don't know the first thing about any of the characters. In AE, despite practicing it a bunch more than the other two lately, I'm not even going to pretend I've begun to scratch the tip of the iceberg on stuff in that game and I've had it all of 2 and a half months and wouldn't consider myself main-locked yet.

With Blazblue, yeah there's not really an excuse, even though I've always tried to take pride in learning Noel and sticking with her. It's just kinda weird to be talking about all this because it's like some weird plea for help with not quite knowing HOW to listen despite actually trying to. I mean, I guess I can see parts of coming across as expecting too much of myself and underestimating who I'm playing but believe me, that's never meant as any disrespect towards anybody that I'm playing or to be like a personal attack of sorts on them.

Unfortunately I can't go into things more as I have a doctor's appointment to go to (nothing major, just regular crap) so I'll have to discuss some other things later on and when I'm back.

 

[Zankoku]

I feel that you're taking a bit too passive of an approach to understanding the flow of the game. If everything were as clear-cut as "if X happens then do 1", nobody would make a move because the first one to actually commit to an action will get responded to in kind. The only real times you can apply that sort of mindset to gameplay are either when you're in the middle of pressuring the opponent (in which case you can force reactions and cause him to commit to something), or if the opponent himself is playing predictably (at which point all you have to do anyway is wait for him to make poor decisions).

You need to pay more attention to everyone's options (but not too much attention, or else you'll just freeze up), and just figure out solid play depending on more general things like positioning (Can I safely throw out a projectile from here? Can I react in time if he decides to threaten with something? Am I in danger of getting trapped in this position?) and situation (Am I coming in to pressure after landing a knockdown? If so, how will he respond to me coming from the ground/in the air and how can I take advantage of this? Am I trying to get away and create more space between us? If so, how might he try to stop me in my tracks? Are we both in neutral and thus not committed to anything? Let's play footsies!).

Experience should be teaching you what things are safe to throw out from where, and how not to get your reactions and habits played when being pressured by your opponent's game plan; suffice it to say, pressing any buttons that aren't roll or DP on wakeup is far less of a calculated risk and more of blatantly disregarding the very high possibility that the opponent actually has something that'll prevent you from stealing initiative like that... That's not to say that such a thing is actually your intent, as it might be possible that you just don't know better, but it really is kind of a personal offense when one can safely assume you just want to play your game without paying any attention to his game - you're making your decisions with no input from how the game has played out so far, so playing against you has little functional difference from playing against a training mode practice dummy with pre-recorded actions.

Figure out what you will from that, I guess.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

If you're a man you'll DP on wake all the time, everytime.

 

[Zankoku]

There are a few characters who can actually afford to be like that on netplay, unfortunately.

 

[LivewiresXe]

I feel that you're taking a bit too passive of an approach to understanding the flow of the game. If everything were as clear-cut as "if X happens then do 1", nobody would make a move because the first one to actually commit to an action will get responded to in kind. The only real times you can apply that sort of mindset to gameplay are either when you're in the middle of pressuring the opponent (in which case you can force reactions and cause him to commit to something), or if the opponent himself is playing predictably (at which point all you have to do anyway is wait for him to make poor decisions).

You need to pay more attention to everyone's options (but not too much attention, or else you'll just freeze up), and just figure out solid play depending on more general things like positioning (Can I safely throw out a projectile from here? Can I react in time if he decides to threaten with something? Am I in danger of getting trapped in this position?) and situation (Am I coming in to pressure after landing a knockdown? If so, how will he respond to me coming from the ground/in the air and how can I take advantage of this? Am I trying to get away and create more space between us? If so, how might he try to stop me in my tracks? Are we both in neutral and thus not committed to anything? Let's play footsies!).

Experience should be teaching you what things are safe to throw out from where, and how not to get your reactions and habits played when being pressured by your opponent's game plan; suffice it to say, pressing any buttons that aren't roll or DP on wakeup is far less of a calculated risk and more of blatantly disregarding the very high possibility that the opponent actually has something that'll prevent you from stealing initiative like that... That's not to say that such a thing is actually your intent, as it might be possible that you just don't know better, but it really is kind of a personal offense when one can safely assume you just want to play your game without paying any attention to his game - you're making your decisions with no input from how the game has played out so far, so playing against you has little functional difference from playing against a training mode practice dummy with pre-recorded actions.

Figure out what you will from that, I guess.

For the first two paragraphs I can agree that there's often more layers to things than I'm putting out and well, that there's a lot of a "grey area" of sorts where things aren't as simple as just "This will always equal this or that as a response".


As for the last paragraph? I honestly don't even know what to say to that. Like...I'm pretty close to speechless with that whole thing. Granted, I know it needed to be said, but I personally never figured that was how it was coming across sometimes, etc. In Persona I'll fully admit I don't know anything else and that's something I can't really deny until I DO know something else. With other stuff, and mostly in general, it's just since I know that good players will try to force others to play "their game" instead of the game that's best for them and being stubborn like that is kinda my attempt to NOT let that happen to me. I...I never figured it would be like taken as a personal offense/attack and piss people off like that, y'know?

 

[sakuraZaKi]

With other stuff, and mostly in general, it's just since I know that good players will try to force others to play "their game" instead of the game that's best for them and being stubborn like that is kinda my attempt to NOT let that happen to me. I...I never figured it would be like taken as a personal offense/attack and piss people off like that, y'know?

I'm a bit confused at your wording here. Are you saying that you act stubborn so good players won't read you?

A good player will try to get you to play into their favor, but they make that decision based on what they see from you. "[Forcing] others to play 'their game'" is what's best for them. Even stubbornness contributes to a playstyle, and can be read.

 

[LivewiresXe]

I'm a bit confused at your wording here. Are you saying that you act stubborn so good players won't read you?

A good player will try to get you to play into their favor, but they make that decision based on what they see from you. "[Forcing] others to play 'their game'" is what's best for them. Even stubbornness contributes to a playstyle, and can be read.

It's more just in a sense of like "they can't make me do what they want me to if I do what I'm just going to do my thing regardless" and all that. Like, it's not meant as a "screw you", as much as it was, for all intents and purposes some kind of countermeasure.

 

[Teczer0]

Sorry for ruining everyone helping Livewire for a sec....

Uh, anyone free tomorrow to play? I might go home tomorrow and just curious.

That and I haven't played in like 2 weeks :<

 

[Sion]

i will play u

 

[Crusayer]

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

"Ugh, I'm losing to this guy's style of play. But if I do absolutely nothing about it and just keep doing whatever I'm doing, it'll somehow go to my favor."

You don't even make an effort to change? Really?

 

[sakuraZaKi]

I dunno about tomorrow. I have two lab classes and I get back around 3PST exhausted. then there's homework and studying for midterms next week.

Since I like to separate myself from work, though, I'll probably go for 5 matches or so, lol.

It's more just in a sense of like "they can't make me do what they want me to if I do what I'm just going to do my thing regardless" and all that. Like, it's not meant as a "screw you", as much as it was, for all intents and purposes some kind of countermeasure.

I can see where you're going with this, and it could work if you know it will, but won't that give your opponent freedom to try out different ways to make you crack?

IMO, if you don't want them to do something to you, you should be already doing something to them.

 

[Teczer0]

Haha, Sakurazaki thats cool however many you want.

I probably can't play an absurd amount of matches either since I have do simulations and stuff :<

But if you can drop by that'd be awesome I really miss playing all of you guys.

 

[Zankoku]

Sorry for ruining everyone helping Livewire for a sec....

Uh, anyone free tomorrow to play? I might go home tomorrow and just curious.

That and I haven't played in like 2 weeks :<

As always, I'm at work until around 6-7PM Pacific (9-10PM Eastern), but I'll be up for playing if you're still around then.

It's more just in a sense of like "they can't make me do what they want me to if I do what I'm just going to do my thing regardless" and all that. Like, it's not meant as a "screw you", as much as it was, for all intents and purposes some kind of countermeasure.

Hey, I'm all for avoiding doing what's expected of you, but it's still known as disrespect, and it's still going to get blown up hard when people simply switch their expectations from "what you're supposed to do" to "what you're actually doing over and over". Wakeup 2b, wakeup 2a, wakeup DP, and wakeup 5d can all be handled with a single option, so it's not like picking different buttons to mash is much of a mixup, either. If anything, at this point I, and I'm pretty sure several others, would be caught off guard if you simply held down+back on wakeup.

Think of it this way - categorize your possible options into escape (roll, block and guard-cancel, jump), disrespect/mashing (any attacking input including DP), and respect (block and keep on blocking); any of these three categories can be covered if the guy guesses correctly, so it's up to you to not rely too much on any single kind of response to pressure and leave yourself repetitive.

 

[Sion]

i agree with minato said before. this game teaches you fundamentals really well

so someone with weak fundamentals can learn them really quickly with the correct mindset.

 

[sakuraZaKi]

I still dunno if its a matter of the mechanics being "more newbie-friendly" or if we all just got really interested enough to keep playing, lol.

Probably could be both, too.

 

[LivewiresXe]

EDIT: Holy hell, this came out way more "wall of text"-y than I was planning. Man, at this point I'm probably starting to get a reputation for rambling on.

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

"Ugh, I'm losing to this guy's style of play. But if I do absolutely nothing about it and just keep doing whatever I'm doing, it'll somehow go to my favor."

You don't even make an effort to change? Really?

Uhh...S4kurazaki kinda got the gist of it, I think. Like, the possibly crazy thing here is I AM making an effort to change. I mean, that's probably why it's frustrating is because in my own weird, non-conformist kind of way I'm actually trying.

I can see where you're going with this, and it could work if you know it will, but won't that give your opponent freedom to try out different ways to make you crack?

IMO, if you don't want them to do something to you, you should be already doing something to them.

Yeah, there's always that risk, and those things obviously do come up, as pretty much everyone here will attest to. Like, the good keepaway players with characters like say, Elizabeth will usually figure out that they just have to piss me off and then they'll wind up spamming like flame stuff or whatever that "Unibeam" type move is to get me to be reckless and just try whatever the hell to get in (which usually evolves into raw D-Ziocar to try and get under said beam). Or if they're a mixup character getting in, they'll spam overheads, which I oddly enough seem to have the hardest time blocking. And well, if they're Kanji then...they'll just be Kanji.

Ideally, it'd just be like...if you're at bat in an MLB game and someone's heckling you from the side, you just pay no heed to it and get the home run anyway. However, it's probably more akin to an MMA fighter trying to ignore somebody who keeps take swings at their head and being all "whatever, I'm going to go for the takedown" and getting knocked out by getting punched in the face when his head's down.

Hey, I'm all for avoiding doing what's expected of you, but it's still known as disrespect, and it's still going to get blown up hard when people simply switch their expectations from "what you're supposed to do" to "what you're actually doing over and over". Wakeup 2b, wakeup 2a, wakeup DP, and wakeup 5d can all be handled with a single option, so it's not like picking different buttons to mash is much of a mixup, either. If anything, at this point I, and I'm pretty sure several others, would be caught off guard if you simply held down+back on wakeup.

Think of it this way - categorize your possible options into escape (roll, block and guard-cancel, jump), disrespect/mashing (any attacking input including DP), and respect (block and keep on blocking); any of these three categories can be covered if the guy guesses correctly, so it's up to you to not rely too much on any single kind of response to pressure and leave yourself repetitive.

Sorry, I know the whole bit was important, but I have to admit that bit I bolded kind of gave me a bit of a well-needed chuckle, lol. Even though it's like 90% likely to be true.

For the rest of the first paragraph, I think sometimes my problem is I have a tendency to "want to go against the grain" and switch up from what people generally expect a person using that character to play like without any real reason other than "I don't want to just be 'another ___ player', I want to do some unorthodox and different stuff". Of course, the main issue with that is, when you start constantly trying to do what most people DON'T do, you often tend to find out in a hurry that there's (like 90% of the time) a good reason as to why people DON'T do that. You know, be it slow startup, lack of invincibility frames, poor reach, bad priority, easy to see coming, or just general 'bad idea'.

With the 2nd, that's actually probably a good idea (even if I believe 'roll' is technically something else in Persona, and I'm unsure if the game has guard cancelling/forget how to do it due to cold johns, etc). It does, however make it come across as a sort of rock/paper/scissor game. And I guess the only reason I got uptight over the whole 'disrespect' thing is that I didn't know that was the actual term for it since I've usually heard people refer to it as 'mashing'. Though yeah...repetition is bad, and even if you're trying to not be repetitive and do the norm, eventually people will rule out you doing just about anything that would typically be considered well...is 'rational' the right term here?

 

[Crusayer]

If you're trying to improve as a player in all aspects, do textbook play before you start doing random. It's like you're trying to decorate a unique cake before you even have a cake.

 

[Zankoku]

And I guess the only reason I got uptight over the whole 'disrespect' thing is that I didn't know that was the actual term for it since I've usually heard people refer to it as 'mashing'.

Respect/disrespect is a somewhat different term than what you might think, I guess...

It's more like shorthand for "respecting the opponent's options". When you stay out of his range, or block his pressure, you are respecting his zoning or pressure. When you press buttons, you're essentially disrespecting the potential threat by attempting to call him out on not actually having solid zoning or tight pressure... or you're not paying attention to him and just doing your own thing.

 

[Umby]

Anyone want to play right now before I fall asleeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

 

[Lythium]

It's not Unibeam, it's Disruptor-desu.

Honestly though, people are giving you really good advice, seriously. If people are telling you to stop being random and work on your fundamentals, they really mean it. Don't make excuses, and stop explaining your "battle mindset" to us. Because if that's really how you play right now, and you want to do better and play competitively, then you have to stop doing that. We're all telling you that, and we've probably all been where you have at some point, so we're not making this up.

You can get better, but I feel like you're really holding yourself back, and it's mostly in your head.

Edit: that may have ended up sounding harsher than I originally intended, but I still mean it. Only you can put the work in, and a lot of us (Minato, Crusayer, myself) have been telling you this stuff for a while now. You can do it, but you do have to put the effort in.

 

[Minato]

Livewire, people are calling you out more now as opposed to during BB because your weaknesses are showing even more.
A lot of people couldn't say much before because a laggy connection and a drive-happy Noel into big damage was something that was hard to deal with.

I've seen SWF lobbies where players were afraid of you when you were knocked down.
They get ready to block and then you do a wake up j.4D.

then they'll wind up spamming like flame stuff or whatever that "Unibeam" type move is to get me to be reckless and just try whatever the hell to get in (which usually evolves into raw D-Ziocar to try and get under said beam).

I'm pretty sure I've said this in the thread a couple times. A Maziodyne on block is a free D Ziocar punish. B Maziodyne is where you have enough time to react (key word, react) and input D Ziocar. This isn't, "I'm gonna mash Ziocar and if they blocked it, I won't use 50 meter to make it safe".

Or if they're a mixup character getting in, they'll spam overheads, which I oddly enough seem to have the hardest time blocking.

It's not "odd". It's just another situation where I never see you attempt to block (incorrectly even).

I'm unsure if the game has guard cancelling/forget how to do it due to cold johns, etc).

It's just like GG and BB. It's just 6 and two specific buttons (A+B in this case) during blockstun.

Like, the possibly crazy thing here is I AM making an effort to change. I mean, that's probably why it's frustrating is because in my own weird, non-conformist kind of way I'm actually trying.

The idea is crazy, because I see no effort. Can you honestly say that you went into training mode and tested something you lost to or were unsure of? Or did you ever try replicating what other Noels or Narukamis did to you? Personally, I will steal tech or keep note of what works when I'm waiting in a lobby, or even use the stuff they tried on me midmatch.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm not really the person to be talking about fundamentals, but I think that every fighting game starts with proper blocking. You can't be on offense if you're getting combo'd, and some opponents will get frustrated simply by not being able to get in on you. Everything else that we're talking about depends on you not being KO'd, and blocking is often the best option in many circumstances.

 

[LivewiresXe]

It's not Unibeam, it's Disruptor-desu.

Honestly though, people are giving you really good advice, seriously. If people are telling you to stop being random and work on your fundamentals, they really mean it. Don't make excuses, and stop explaining your "battle mindset" to us. Because if that's really how you play right now, and you want to do better and play competitively, then you have to stop doing that. We're all telling you that, and we've probably all been where you have at some point, so we're not making this up.

You can get better, but I feel like you're really holding yourself back, and it's mostly in your head.

I know you guys are legitimately trying to help and that you're not trying to like...be mean or pick on me or put me down or some crap like that, and I respect that you guys are being blunt and honest with me instead of like, prettying it up to make it seem like things aren't as bad as they are.

My personal thought on why I fall back into auto-pilot and regress into random nonsensical instincts is because I'm completely an overthinker. If I have something semi-important, or even something most people don't think of as a big deal to say to a friend/family/etc, I'll spend hours going over every "what if?" this, or that, or how it could go, what I have to say, and build it up to be this gigantic roadblock thing to where I put it off again and again and when it does get done, it turns into a jumbled mess. Hell, on the bus ride up to Toronto for T13 I spent half an hour trying to think on how I'd take off my hoodie on account of being warm without elbowing the guy next to me or getting the attention of the girls next to me and didn't even notice or get why after I did it just all of a sudden.

I know it sounds irrelevant, but I think what I tend to do is I overthink a bunch of different situations to where things become daunting and I get so worked up about what they COULD potentially doing that I don't even pay attention to what they ARE doing. Yeah, this sounds like an excuse, but truthfully I'm just trying to figure bits out because I think I'm not actually being 100% honest with myself on what's going on and I have to actually drive it home myself. You guys can give the greatest advice in the history of the world, but unfortunately if I get defensive and all "that's not true..." about any of it by putting my back up against a wall, all that's going to happen is I'm going to get more and more frustrated, you guys are going to get annoyed with me asking for help that I won't be able to bring myself to 100% listen to, and I'll wind up dropping the game due to not being able to play it properly on account of refusing to get better and wondering why I lose when that's the case, causing me to switch to another game and repeat the process.


Oi...this turned into another ramble/rant, AND bunch of excuses, didn't it?


Edit Re Minato: I haven't so much tried all of the things that have been done to me by Noels or Narukamis until I get it because with regards to Narukami I don't really know how to properly OMC as sometimes I think "well...doesn't that spend 50 meter on a 3k combo when there are other meter-less ways to get that damage so you can save the meter for Supers?" which yeah, is probably incredibly flawed. With Noels I um...and this is going to sound absolutely awful, but although I don't often wind up playing other Noels, on the times I lose I tend to chalk it up to not playing them often and being all "well, if it worked on me, then it was probably going to work on anybody regardless" and think of it as "not that different" or "well, what I do combo-wise an all that is as good or better so I'm fine with what I've got", when the truth is well, I'm most likely the absolute last person in the world that should have "elitist moments".

 

[Minato]

snip

Um...

Don't make excuses, and stop explaining your "battle mindset" to us.

You're still not even taking advice like this that was given moments ago lol. Lythium also posted the Training Mode article from Dustloop a week or so ago. While I'm pretty sure you didn't read/apply it to prepare for T13 like you should have, do it now if you haven't. It's on the front page.

Also I'm posting this SF footsie article http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702
It's mostly for SF, but you can apply this in other games and hopefully it changes your mindset during matches.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Stop making excuses! It's that simple.

Also, patience.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Umby]

Okay, I'm actually awake this time and looking to play for a brief period of time. Also still looking for Aigis critique. Anyone in?

 

[LivewiresXe]

All right...I'm not going to reply in snip form because I suspect my responses have inappropriately and totally unnecessarily become increasingly frustrated/angry/defensive sounding when there's no reason for them to be. I'm just going to try and take this to just read, and not try to "but" this or that.

That...and I'm going to take this moment to thank you guys for sticking with me, and let you know that I'm sorry that I keep putting you guys through crap like this time and again because you guys deserve better than to have to put up with things like me occasionally going off like a little kid.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

think of it like chess. you just need to know and read the opponents move and calculate the many possibilities the opponent will make so you can counter accordingly...

good players can read their opponent 1 move ahead.
the really good players can read their opponents 5 moves ahead.

 

[Crusayer]

tl;dr NO JOHNS.

Take all criticism to heart. Leave your salt and tears at the door. That's the warrior's path to finding enlightenment.

/kage

 

[sakuraZaKi]

You may not see it, Livewire, but when ever you post snips, they come of as excuses, like this: [COLLAPSE="snip"]1: "I know it sounds irrelevant, but I think what I tend to do is I overthink a bunch of different situations to where things become daunting and I get so worked up about what they COULD potentially doing that I don't even pay attention to what they ARE doing."

2: My personal thought on why I fall back into auto-pilot and regress into random nonsensical instincts is because I'm completely an overthinker.[/COLLAPSE] It makes some of us mad because you sound as if you're stuck in a rut, and whenever you post responding to our advice you repeat the process over and over and over again. "I play like this because X".

It sounds as if you are trying to justify how you play; even worse, it sounds as if you are justifying your position that "THIS IS HOW I PLAY AND I WON'T/CAN'T CHANGE IT D:" It's fairly stubborn (which might play into that "stubborn" playstyle you mentioned earlier today, hehheh). You don't need to make excuses when we tell you that something needs work, because it means that you have the option (and the help) to make things better. Did you know that you post a lot of "I's"? It gives me the indication that you are overthinking about yourself and your play.

I suggest that you try to get into your brain to "Just Do It", and get into the habit of trying to tackle issues one by one.

"Looks like I suck at blocking, SOOOOOO I shall open training mode, record the combo, and start practicing dem blockstrings." There. Simple, and it shows that you are willing to learn. It's alright to lose in games. Expose yourself and slowly gain an understanding to what is right and wrong in certain situations. You'll see some of us post stuff like that here after sessions.

Also, I should've put this more at the top, but I just feel that you lack the ability to KNOW how to practice things. Really, read up on the posts from SRK that I, Minato, and others have posted. For now, JUST do that when you have the time for fighters. Watching matches is VERY IMPORTANT to growth, because you will be able to follow examples. If you want to become better, you WILL watch! Minato said that he steals tech, lol. I do that too. Believe it or not, most of the combos I use for Yukiko I got JUST from watching Stunedge. Never looked at a combo list extensively yet; not until I get my movement down first.

[COLLAPSE="I was like you, I guess..."][Other than Smash] I started out with BB for 2D fighters, and I was probably at the same position you are in, lol. I faced Jam Stunna and Minato in CT a couple of times a looong time ago, and I was down right horrible/n00b. All I did was practice combos, combos, combos, and, while I didn't know it at the time, it got me nowhere. Dude. I even printed way too many pages out like you do now (BUT I NEVER USED THEM). I had no idea on what hit confirms were and I didn't know fighter terminology, so I was clueless.

Then I just stopped playing entirely. I bought BBCS, but played for like < month and stopped. In my inactivity, I looked up a lot of info on fighters, and always chatted with Minato over Melty/MvC3/KoF/SF streams. I wasn't a player, but I was able to understand the general ways to play, and I think that is what was most important for me. It wasn't until P4A came out that my mind was ready to start playing 2Ds "seriously" again.
[/COLLAPSE]Hopefully these posts today get into your head, dood.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Actually, it's kind of news to me that there's a lot of "I"s when I (crap) post. Scary thing is, despite what you mentioned and it being true, sometimes there's instances where I become more stubborn. And yes...the old messed up BB button layout made a return on the weekend.

It is though nice to hear you went through a similar thing with CT since despite doing Brawl, when CT came out, and there were two of my friends playing it, it sort of became to me "my game" and while Alpha 3 was one that was taken semi-seriously, BB became the first one I wanted to legit be good at. Your watching thing actually sounds like a legit point because the times that I started improving in Blazblue is when I would follow and watch a bunch of iplaywinner, jourdal, pktazn, gameacho, levelupseries, teamspooky, etc on Youtube was when I seemed to do the best, so logic would dictate to stick with it, I'd assume. Like, there was a time where I'd rave on here a bit about how awesome this match was, or that tournament, or other stuff. Stuff like 2GB pulling off a double Astral when he played Noel, DSMoove doing some good things, and all the R-1 Noel play I would watch (that I'm sure Minato/Lythi/Crusayer remember me raving about) causing me to crap my pants.

It most certainly can't HURT to spend time doing so since there's absolutely no way it won't help even slightly. And the resources are certainly there. No real excuse for putting off stuff like that or making a complicated situation out of a simple thing. Plus...I think it's safe to say from this that it's NOT a sign of weakness to admit that you suck at certain things and need to work on them. So uh yeah...probably better than trying to deny your weaknesses in most ways.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm so going to expose Jam Stunna when I find out how to press Aigis's buttons.

ggs tonight, however briefly we played.

I just saw this. I've been put on notice.

 

[Raziek]

Start on Brawl, possess ridiculous fundamentals and mind games.

I don't even use good combos and I still do well in BB. Basic combo + fundamentals gets you far.