People who use top tier characters are the worst at the game.

[Lessthan_tom]

Every time someone posts one of these threads it should just be locked straight away. I've already seen 10-15 of them all using the same tired argument. There should be a sticky about it and all of these threads should be locked.

 

[Big Bob]

Why are people all making assumptions about me? That I'm a scrub for having this opinion? That because I saw Ness beat up several Fox players, I think that that Ness will always beat any Fox? No, of course not.

I like winning too. I'm going to that Gamestop tournament next week with full intent of winning (and I know what I'm up against). However, the mentality "play to win" is just as much a hindrance as a goal, because your playing lacks style. Professional matches should be fun to watch; when everybody uses the exact same tactics (whether or not those tactics are the "best"), the game becomes stale.

Also, if anybody seriously thinks that I'm terrible based off what I say here, I will gladly play you online next week once the game is out.

 

[Norm]

Ya i agree in full people are so concerned with the tier list they they wont just try the characters and play the ones they like to play as i never pay attention tire i just play what i want.

 

[Ojanya]

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure most people use the character that feels the best to them. They play the game to have fun. All of us do. Video games are fun. When people accuse someone of not having fun for being a competitive player, it's simply not fair.


Consider this, you love the character Mario. However, you do not like how Mario plays, and lose with him. After messing around with other characters, you come across Fox. You love how he plays, and are no longer losing as much. Who would you play? It differs, exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make, people play this game for different reasons. You may play because you like the character, cool, that's great, but you have to respect how someone else likes the game. Personally, I play the character that I think feels easiest to control and attack with. To each's own.

 

[Yojimbo]

Why are people all making assumptions about me? That I'm a scrub for having this opinion? That because I saw Ness beat up several Fox players, I think that that Ness will always beat any Fox? No, of course not.

I like winning too. I'm going to that Gamestop tournament next week with full intent of winning (and I know what I'm up against). However, the mentality "play to win" is just as much a hindrance as a goal, because your playing lacks style. Professional matches should be fun to watch; when everybody uses the exact same tactics (whether or not those tactics are the "best"), the game becomes stale.

Also, if anybody seriously thinks that I'm terrible based off what I say here, I will gladly play you online next week once the game is out.

So the way professional players go about Smash is wrong because it "lacks style"? You really don't have an arguement here; you base the fact that people who use high tier characters because they are high tier aren't "cool" or flashy. Sure, you feel good using a lowered tier character to beat a high tier character but in the end, does it really matter that much?

I won't knock your cockiness, since you speak of a local scene, but trying to tell people how to play a video game or claiming they are wrong for playing a certain way is silly in every aspect of the word. The Play to Win mentality isn't wrong, nor is the Play to Have Fun mentality. It's how different people choose to enjoy a game. No one else has the right to tell them that they don't.

 

[Ojanya]

Why are people all making assumptions about me? That I'm a scrub for having this opinion? That because I saw Ness beat up several Fox players, I think that that Ness will always beat any Fox? No, of course not.

I like winning too. I'm going to that Gamestop tournament next week with full intent of winning (and I know what I'm up against). However, the mentality "play to win" is just as much a hindrance as a goal, because your playing lacks style. Professional matches should be fun to watch; when everybody uses the exact same tactics (whether or not those tactics are the "best"), the game becomes stale.

Also, if anybody seriously thinks that I'm terrible based off what I say here, I will gladly play you online next week once the game is out.

(Before I even post, I'm sorry if this is a double post)


"Play to win" is a solid goal. They're playing to beat everyone, and they want the prize. Honor, money, free stuff, and whatever it is. Saying that proffesional matches aren't fun to watch is subjective. (Personally I think they're really fun to watch.) When it all comes down to it, I think people should just respect how other people play the game. It will always be like this. I'm not saying you don't respect them, because from what I understand, you know what they mean, but simply don't agree with it. That's fine. You play how you want.

(I'm not trying to flame you if that's what it sounds like, I'm simply trying to express how most people feel, and flush out bias)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

*sigh* Another unethical haphazard assumption made by a new member of our community. Where have I seen this before?

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you play a character based off of "fanboyism"doesn't give you any right to demean them. Many people who use these characters are active tournament players, and as such, want to win as much as anyone else. We don't garner any feelings of honor in the competitive community; we play to win.

Let's say you happened to like an upper tier character before you knew of his/her abilities. That's good. Even if you didn't, you should be able to play with that character without having to worry about people passing unecessary judgement simply because you hold yourself above everyone else.

Get off of your pedestal and play with whoever/however you want.

 

[Big Bob]

Well, some matches are simply more fun to watch than others. Fox vs. Fox just isn't an interesting matchup. I find Gimpyfish and Ken's videos more interesting simply because they differentiate from the norm. That's what I mean by style.

 

[M3tr01D]

Having fun watching matches as an observer is one thing, having fun playing matches is completely different. Despite your belief, it is not fun to pick a low or bottom tier character you have "emotional attachment" to and end up losing your money for doing so.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well, some matches are simply more fun to watch than others. Fox vs. Fox just isn't an interesting matchup. I find Gimpyfish and Ken's videos more interesting simply because they differentiate from the norm. That's what I mean by style.

What?

You must not watch enough matches and only target professional players, or you're watching them too much. Everyone isn't playing simply for your viewing pleasure y'know. =/

 

[S0crat3s]

like, wow. I've got the choice between a nut-cracker and my fingers. I have to crack a nut, but I've got an emotional attachment to my fingers. So instead of simply using what would make things easier, i'm going to struggle and fall behind the competition who were smart enough to use what was available to them. but i'll have "fun".

have fun being bad at smash

S0CRAT3S used Counter!

Didn't he say that you should use the character that you play the best as, regardless of tier? Even though he said that he was attached to Jiggs, he also said that he played best as her...He also said that he liked Pokemon Trainer, but he said that he played as Lucas because he found that he was easier to get a hang of quickly...That doesn't mean that Lucas is better, it just fit his playstyle better (and he has cool hair)...

Now, my main cycles between Marth, Luigi, and Falco in Melee...I chose them because they are either light, have a high jump (Luigi, Falco) and have good air attacks, have good range (Marth and Luigi), and they fit my playstyle well...In Brawl, I'll gravitate more towards Pit (multiple jumps, wicked recovery, like his character design), DeDeDe (multiple jumps, super-high recovery move, he's an avian), Meta Knight (multiple jumps, crazy-fast sword, leet combos, "his mask and cape exude coolness"), Falco (high jumps, old favorite, he's an avian), and possibly Olimar (he has Pikmin!)...Now, regardless to their tiers (which are nearly nonexistant at this point), I will try to get good at these characters in particular (I'll still play as the rest, but these are the only guys I'll play in serious competition), but over time, I'll eventually find the character(s) that I play best as, and stick with them...I like them, I play best at them, and those are the only things that have any impact on my main(s)...

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

(1.) However, if you use any of those just because they're considered the "best", then I honestly don't think you have the mindset to play well at Smash. That's because winning is your goal, not to have fun. No no, I'm not condoning all items on Brinstar; I like playing FD as much as anyone. But what I mean is that your playstyle lacks soul. Because you pick the strongest character, you're admitting that you aren't capable of using a lesser character. One of the reasons I admire Gimpyfish is because of his insistence to use Bowser. Everybody considers Bowser one of the worst in the game, but Gimpy uses him anyway, simply because he likes him and got good with him. It's this kind of mindset that has made him one of the most recognizable Smash players.

(2.) In Melee, my main was Jigglypuff, simply because I was a large Pokemon fan, and I enjoyed Jiggly's floatiness and aerial attacks. She suited my playstyle perfectly and my friends recognized me as a beast when I used her. Not to mention, she's capable of wrecking professional Fox and Falco players with ease.

(3.) I also think it's acceptable to play with a character simply because you like his play style. I was going to use Pokemon Trainer in the upcoming Gamestop tourny, but after playing the game I realize that he's too difficult to quickly get a hang of. However, I found that Lucas's play style matches mine perfectly, and even though I've never played Mother 3, I already see him as a valuable player. Besides, he has awesome hair.

(4.) Also, we need more people who taunt in the middle of matches. Taunting is your way of saying "Hey look, I'm leaving myself wide open, and there's nothing you can do about it! Nyah nyah~" So do it every time you get an awesome kill. Just makes things more fun.

(5.) This thread popped up after watching a Ness combo video for Melee. 90% of the people he fought were Fox users, and he just demolished them one by one. Since Ness is considered poor, I found that quite interesting.

1. Actually, these people have the best mentality, because they understand what it takes to be good at smash, and that is to use the best available tools. Sure, Gimpy is an excellent player, but he's one of few exceptional low tier mains. To put it simply, these characters have a hard time competing in a well developed metagame. You can't even begin to argue against that.

2. There is a lot of ignorance in this statement. Jigglypuff does not wreck pro fox/falco players with ease. That's just ********. If anything, the match-up is an extremely obnoxious camp-fest.

3. What? You just contradicted yourself? Next point.

4. Uh, we do. Only, instead of a direction on the d-pad, we do things like technical stuff which takes way more skill and is cooler looking that a one button input.

5. This is where your argument lost all sorts of credibility. Combo videos are not valid judgments of skill. You could be facing awful people, they could be staged, or it could just be one gem of footage out of countless hours. They are just meant to show cool things, not be like, oh look how good I am. I know you addressed this, which makes me wonder why you even brought this up.

And you can't claim you are an excellent player. Maybe in a local sense, but how you perform on a larger level is what determines how good you are. Sure your friends say you're a "beast." But I'm pretty sure better players won't.

 

[Tofu Beast]

Gimpy FTW

1 char

 

[Thino]

That's because winning is your goal, not to have fun.

you cannot have fun if you constantly lose

 

[Lynkx]

That's because winning is your goal, not to have fun.

you cannot have fun if you constantly lose

But you can have fun training with the character you desire and knowing that you will be better than you were

 

[redgreenblue]

This thread is not necessary. You play with any character top tier or low tier.

QFT. 10chanseys

 

[staindgrey]

....*sigh*

I get what the OP's point is, and I somewhat agree with it. I don't hate pros. I don't hate casuals. I find both intriguing. The fact that one person's opinion can spark a flame war is kind of sad, really.

BUT it is more interesting to me when I find a video of a "professional" player using low tier than another Marth/Sheik/Fox/Falco match. Not to say I hate these characters, because I love the Starfox series and Sheik has been my Melee main since the beginning. I just have that little bit more respect for the lower-tier mains, that's all.

 

[BlackFoxPariah]

The first character I ever used that I began to use well was Fox. I just play with whoever now. I enjoy playing with most characters except Kirby, Ganondorf, and Peach. Everyone else I like to use. Mixing it up makes the game fun and can confuse people because you don't get into a set pattern.

 

[shadydentist]

For all you people out there, here's Dave Sirlin on playing NOT to win:

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/

Specifically,

Playing to win and playing to learn are often at odds. If you play the game at hand to maximize you chances of winning, then you won't take the unnecessary risks of trying out new tactics, counters, moves, patterns, or whatever. Playing it straight is the best way to win the game at hand, but at the cost of valuable information about the game that you may need later, and valuable practice to expand your narrow repertoire of moves or tactics.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

I can understand where the argument is coming from. It's disheartening to see the prime reason a character is used in a game because "They are the best at winning". It does give the impression that the characters are little more than statistics and percentages solely existing for the purpose of "who will win me that prize money best". And that's just sad.

It'd be like if there was a Street Fighter tournament, and everyone played as Akuma, Sagat, and Bison all the time.

Or a Guilty Gear tournament where the only characters were gold mode versions.

 

[Jellybelly]

Don't blame the people who choose the best characters. Blame the game designers for designing such an unbalanced game that out of a roster of about 25 only 5 or 6 of them can be considered tourney useable.

 

[S0crat3s]

1. Actually, these people have the best mentality, because they understand what it takes to be good at smash, and that is to use the best available tools. Sure, Gimpy is an excellent player, but he's one of few exceptional low tier mains. To put it simply, these characters have a hard time competing in a well developed metagame. You can't even begin to argue against that.

2. There is a lot of ignorance in this statement. Jigglypuff does not wreck pro fox/falco players with ease. That's just ********. If anything, the match-up is an extremely obnoxious camp-fest.

3. What? You just contradicted yourself? Next point.

4. Uh, we do. Only, instead of a direction on the d-pad, we do things like technical stuff which takes way more skill and is cooler looking that a one button input.

5. This is where your argument lost all sorts of credibility. Combo videos are not valid judgments of skill. You could be facing awful people, they could be staged, or it could just be one gem of footage out of countless hours. They are just meant to show cool things, not be like, oh look how good I am. I know you addressed this, which makes me wonder why you even brought this up.

And you can't claim you are an excellent player. Maybe in a local sense, but how you perform on a larger level is what determines how good you are. Sure your friends say you're a "beast." But I'm pretty sure better players won't.

1) Yes, but someone who completely sucks at Fox/Falco because of their playstyle, and is better with Luigi or Dr. Mario shouldn't pick the spacies because they're tier...Yes, winning is fun, but you shouldn't go into tourneys with the "I'll play the highest tier character because that guarantees a win against a lower-tier character" mindset, but if you play the best as a high tier character (like Falco, in my case), then by all means, go for it...

2) I think he means that he's seen a Jigglypuff player completely trash Fox/Falco players...If he/she played better as Jiggs than the other player played as Fox/Falco, guess who's going to win? Although the original post isn't the most knowledgable in Smash, some of it does make sense...


3) He said in the original post that you shouldn't make your character decisions SOLELY on tiers...He said that he liked PT, but he could get a hang of Lucas better...He never said that you shouldn't pick a character because you played better as them, he said that you shouldn't choose a character (like I said earlier in this paragraph) because of their tier placement...

4) Hmm...I do taunt after awesome kills, but other times, I either get into a better tactical position, a bunch of L-cancelled uairs, or a Fire Bird into the ground...Taunting isn't bad, but it's good for adding insult to injury (besides, you can't attack during it, which adds even more insult...I'd say that it is the equivalent of lying down in a napping position after knocking down an opponent in a boxing match)...

5) Does that mean that someone who plays Ness better than the other guy plays Fox will lose because of tiers? I think, and I mention this again, the main point of the original post was "don't let tiers be the sole decider of your character decision, use the character that you play best as and like the most," not "Don't pay attention to tiers because they are all lies, play as the character you are a rabid fanboy/girl about," or anything along those lines...

 

[Betrayed]

*Walks into thread*

*Reads first post*

WELL FIRST I PLAYED ROY COS HE HAS TEH PH1R3!!!!! THEN I SAWD THE TIER LIST SO I PLAYED MARTH SO I COULD BE PRO ^____^!!!!!

Dumbed down enough for you guys?

 

[S0crat3s]

For all you people out there, here's Dave Sirlin on playing NOT to win:

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-3-not-playing-to-win/

Specifically,

Quoted For Truth...

You win your weight in Internets...

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Don't blame the people who choose the best characters. Blame the game designers for designing such an unbalanced game that out of a roster of about 25 only 5 or 6 of them can be considered tourney useable.

One could argue that such a game has no reason to ever be considered something tournament based.

 

[John5]

Don't feed the troll.

 

[M3tr01D]

4) Hmm...I do taunt after awesome kills, but other times, I either get into a better tactical position, a bunch of L-cancelled uairs, or a Fire Bird into the ground...Taunting isn't bad, but it's good for adding insult to injury (besides, you can't attack during it, which adds even more insult...I'd say that it is the equivalent of lying down in a napping position after knocking down an opponent in a boxing match)...

Epic Loss.

Spoiler

.

 

[Jellybelly]

One could argue that such a game has no reason to ever be considered something tournament based.

Not really, if those six characters are tournament viable then a tournament can exist. Even if a fighting game had 2 or even 1 character that was above the rest you could still be played at tournament level.

But, thats the crux, if a fighting game was released with a character that was better than everyone (I'm looking at you Akuma) then the people that play to win would and should choose him, because they'd be idiots not to.

I used to think the same way, that choosing high tier characters is "cheap" and "boring" but only because i wasn't using a high tier character and i was putting myself at a disadvantage. It's the game makers objective to balance there game, it's not the objective of the player to install an invisible code of conduct.

 

[sv3]

It's the game makers objective to balance there game, it's not the objective of the player to install an ivisible code of conduct.

Except when it isn't the game makers' objective to make a balanced competitive fighting game. In 'such a game' as Smash Bros, we haven't seen much over the course of 3 games to indicate that this is their objective at all. It's on the players who want to try and make it competitive, then, to do what they will.

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

This thread is partially right. Yes, you shouldn't just go and choose a high tier because their better, but there's different reasoning behind that makes the other part of your post wrong. You shouldn't just start playing as your favorite character, because you might end up being better with another character but will never know because you didn't have interest in that character. You should probably play around a few matches with all of the characters, and then from there eliminate a few, play with the remaining, and repeat that process until you feel you've found your best character. Choose a few others as back-ups.
After like a month you should generally do it again because you'll lxikely know new techniques or be able to pull off older ones better.

Why play brawl professionally if you are going to lose? You might as well play with the best characters so you can get good faster.

...because not everyone plays/will play Brawl professionally just to win, ever consider that it could be FUN no matter the character? And since when has using high tiers made a person get good (lol not amazing) faster?

Theres only so much "thats my favorite character, even if he is low tier" can do for you.

And tell that to Gimpyfish. Let's just pretend using the low-tier bowser has done nothing for him, right?

 

[Xengri]

Someone needs to tell me why some people feel the need to push their morals on other people.
And, over the internet of all places...

Seriously? I can't be the only one to see how stupid this is. Can I?

So what, if you think it's wrong or, sad that I picked a character based on how good they are?
What makes you think I'm going to actually care what you think is wrong?

No, here's a better question.
Why should I care?


Also, who ever uses fun as a argument should go die in a fire.

FUN=SUBJECTIVE

Fun is different for each and every person.
It's not a hard concept.

 

[sv3]

And tell that to Gimpyfish. Let's just pretend using the low-tier bowser has done nothing for him, right?

Great job pointing out the exception of the super professional. Now let's focus on the tons of other players out there and try to apply the same thing... crap.

...because not everyone plays/will play Brawl professionally just to win

If this was actually the case, then where are all the Links, Mewtwos, etc. in these professional tournaments? Maybe I'm missing them, but I'm pretty sure I haven't seen too many (or any at all in the case of some characters).

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

For all of you Gimpyfish fans out there:

1. Gimpy didn't win tournaments with Bowser.

2. He's going Meta Knight as a main and Bowser as a secondary.

 

[S0crat3s]

Epic Loss.

Spoiler

.

Why? I have a strict code of conduct in casual and friendly matches, but I let myself get into my opponent's mind and make them frustrated (which has a negative effect on your game)...My opponent might hate me for it, but at the end of the game, win or lose, I greet my opponent with a "good game, you played very well," a gentlemanly handshake, and a small, courteous bow...

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Scrub topic. This topic wasn't necessary. Seems like you're tired of getting beat by Fox players.

 

[AquaTech]

How good a character is can sometimes determine how much fun they are to use.
Let's say I loved DK in Melee. Even though I "like" him, using him wouldn't be much fun because I'd be getting combo'd every time I play.
And let's also say I've never heard of Marth before. But I try him out, love his moveset, like jumping around and recovering with him, that's whats fun.
However, I did use G&W because he's a cool guy.

 

[h1roshi]

Look... has anyone of you guys actually sat down and thought how ludicrous it is to look down on someone for what character they use? It's ridiculous, it really is. The sheer fact that people like you create a stigma around playing good characters is just ********. It's also dumb to assume that people who played the character in order to be the best either A: aren't having fun, or B: aren't enjoying their character choice.

Ultimately, people should play however they want to play and not have to deal with this crap.

QFT, what he said. there is nothing wrong with a "play to win" mindset. thats how really good people get good. they dont make imaginary rules to constrict them...peace

-hiro

 

[Finch]

One of the reasons I admire Gimpyfish is because of his insistence to use Bowser. Everybody considers Bowser one of the worst in the game, but Gimpy uses him anyway, simply because he likes him and got good with him. It's this kind of mindset that has made him one of the most recognizable Smash players.

lawl. The only people that think this are those that joined SWF just for brawl and don't have any idea what they're talking about. Gimpy is not really that popular (at all) in the actual smash community, nor is he considered a good player. The only low tier users who really have a lot of respect in the smash community (off the top of my head) are Chu and Bum.

 

[VVayfarer]

I agree that people should use whatever character they want, but if you're using Sheik/Fox/Marth for the sole reason that you lose with the others, and dare to call yourself a "pro", you're mistaken. That would only make you a n00b who needs the perfect character to stand out.

 

[Spartan1841]

Who cares people should play with whatever character they like