People are worried about Project M dying, what do you think?

[GabPR]

The problem is that "just host more PM events" doesn't address whether or not people will actually be interested in PM-only events - all people in this thread (and I'm guessing any time anyone expresses as much in real life, too) who've responded to any potential reasons as to why PM may not be that interesting for people have been sort of browbeaten down.

Telling people that they're wrong to feel dissatisfied with the mod is not going to make them magically more interested in playing and/or watching it.

What about the plenty of people that do like 3.5 that dont have any events to go to? One of the most important factors of a growing community apart from a quality game is how available tournaments or even social gatherings of the said are accesible to them Its like putting 1 person playing x game needs to go 3 hours for him to play it, while there is a tourney of y game just half an hour away. Said person will feel more willing to play y because he can actually play it with people without such a high fee of gas money and time, even if he prefers x.

 

[metaXzero]

There's not much more to say to people dissatisfied with PM because their character got nerfed or they are angry at Melee top tiers going mostly untouched beyond wait for 4.0. If you're not playing Olimar though, no one is really bad.

But yeah, there's been quite a few people who've posted about not having tournaments to go to. It wasn't until recently that I had a weekly I could actually enter instead of just playing friendlies really late at Smashing Grounds (shoutouts to Sunday SuperDragon in RI)

 

[Foo]

Yeah, I'd say there are not enough events within a reasonable distance for me. There's definitely demand for tournies that haven't been met.

 

[Bleck]

What about the plenty of people that do like 3.5 that dont have any events to go to?

They should perhaps consider organizing some events? If your perception of the problem is, "other people aren't making enough tourneys for me to attend", you are actively contributing to the problem.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

well this thread sure went off topic..... in part thanks to a moderator???
no longer about whether or not pm is dying, or how to help prevent it if is, is now a e-peen contest thread of people thinking they know how to make the best game or talk about what the best game is or how bad other games are. really sad :\

Given the premise of the thread i never did.

 

[abcool]

You can't exactly give it a fair assessment if you hardly played or even watched it now can you

Actually to be honest I can. If you noticed I was on these boards for a long time. I was there when Shanus was in charge of Project M and when the idea of the game was being announced.(Lil after Brawl+ started to fail)

I was the one that gave the idea of using a demo to distribute the game during early development when people wanted BADLY and I mean BADLY to play it. Since they wanted to release it only when it was completed. I was hyped and excited for this game. I remember when Ike was an overpowered machine and remember watching FC tournament that was like the first HUGE Project M tournament to be played when Hbox won that was the era of Vro and Metroid, but I digress. Project M 3.02 is what turned me off and I stopped watching streams and caring for it. Sorry, I didn't mention that, but 2007 isn't next to my name for nothing.

 

[GabPR]

They should perhaps consider organizing some events? If your perception of the problem is, "other people aren't making enough tourneys for me to attend", you are actively contributing to the problem.

I myself help organize tournaments in my island, and perhaps you did not read my comment enough to understand what I meant, which is that more tournaments, and nearby ones at that, would ve better than less tournaments to promote community growth. Please dont put words in my mouth.

 

[Bleck]

perhaps you did not read my comme

yawn

 

[GabPR]

yawn

Good night, sleep tight.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I'm tryin' to tell people that getting a good online tournament can work. After all, no need for gas, no need to live close to the venue, no need for entrance fee, just need to be able to run PM online. But no, people rather sleep on the thread. (ain't that right, Bleck?)

We need good footage running to hype people. Can someone organize a good online tournament?

 

[Phyvo]

I think some of the concerns that people have had in this thread have some merit. But because of the combination of sm4sh and drama-drama people are playing up the death bit way too much. 3.5 came out just two months ago. Setbacks are temporary. I have been watching P:M's progress since before 1.0 and playing Smash since 64 and I am optimistic about P:M's future.

 

[GabPR]

I'm tryin' to tell people that getting a good online tournament can work. After all, no need for gas, no need to live close to the venue, no need for entrance fee, just need to be able to run PM online. But no, people rather sleep on the thread. (ain't that right, Bleck?)

We need good footage running to hype people. Can someone organize a good online tournament?

Right now a bunch of people including myself are gonna throw a round robin next week hopefully. Nothing serious, but its a good way for people to match themselves. Check out the thread in wifi matchmaking since we are announcing it there. After we finish doing the rules we can also post it in the online tournament threads by tomorrow.

 

[Terotrous]

I have talked about this with my friends, and many of us are kinda upset with all the nerfs of 3.5
Melee is fun not because you can Fsmash with roy, or haveing a meh mario fireball, its good cause you can pilar with falco, combo with marth, and shine spike with fox. Those gimmicks make the game really fun and its only OP when other chars doesn't have tools to catch up. When chars are full of stupidness like diddy had, of course you gotta nerf something.
But they nerf the entire cast, even those that weren't a problem.
Why is melee so cool? Cause you have lots of options, you can wavedash, dash dance, spam aerials near ground, etc. Taking away options kills the game, thats why Brawl felt so akward (don't mean to start a war here, just my opinion).
They took away zss dash cancel, wario's running grab animation, they took wolf's laser cancel, cmooon, those weren't broken mechanichs.
You can always nerf damage and knockback, but nerfing options is just plain bad (unless its clearly broken).

This added to smash4 release has taken a lot of players to try the new game, and abandon the "nerfed" version of PM, at least in my region.

This is pretty much exactly what I've been saying. There was all kinds of fun stuff removed seemingly for no reason.

One other thing that is probably an issue is discovery. One thing that keeps the scene alive is when people figure out new things since it helps everyone else level up their game. Smash4 is new right now so there's a lot to discover, especially in the barely-touched customs-on metagame. Conversely, in PM there is very little to discover since the latest release adds very little new over 3.02, it mostly just takes stuff away, so rather than asking "what's new for my character?" players basically have to ask "what's left?"

 

[GabPR]

This is pretty much exactly what I've been saying. There was all kinds of fun stuff removed seemingly for no reason.

One other thing that is probably an issue is discovery. One thing that keeps the scene alive is when people figure out new things since it helps everyone else level up their game. Smash4 is new right now so there's a lot to discover, especially in the barely-touched customs-on metagame. Conversely, in PM there is very little to discover since the latest release adds very little new over 3.02, it mostly just takes stuff away, so rather than asking "what's new for my character?" players basically have to ask "what's left?"

This is not true (at least with most characters I have played) the rewards for discovery in this patch are better than ever. Just take a character to the lab and you may be surprised on what you find.

For example, I am a Sonic main, and some people at Sonic boards started saying that same thing. I too believed that at first, but then i hit the lab, got ideas from other top players (even if they dont use the same characters) and started testing everything that came into my head. The result? I found a lot of new setups, combos and movement options I previously underlooked AND were made posible by some minor changes done on the patch.

 

[Terotrous]

This is not true (at least with most characters I have played) the rewards for discovery in this patch are better than ever. Just take a character to the lab and you may be surprised on what you find.

For example, I am a Sonic main, and some people at Sonic boards started saying that same thing. I too believed that at first, but then i hit the lab, got ideas from other top players (even if they dont use the same characters) and started testing everything that came into my head. The result? I found a lot of new setups, combos and movement options I previously underlooked AND were made posible by some minor changes done on the patch.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was true for Sonic because I feel he was a bit underexplored in 3.02 (Wizrobe started showing off what he could do at the very end), but for some characters whom we knew well in 3.02 I feel like there's not a lot left.

 

[GabPR]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was true for Sonic because I feel he was a bit underexplored in 3.02 (Wizrobe started showing off what he could do at the very end), but for some characters whom we knew well in 3.02 I feel like there's not a lot left.

Examples?

 

[Terotrous]

Examples?

I feel this way about Ivysaur, but it's probably true of almost anyone who you saw a lot of in 3.02, like Mario and Link for example.

 

[Rizner]

I myself help organize tournaments in my island, and perhaps you did not read my comment enough to understand what I meant, which is that more tournaments, and nearby ones at that, would ve better than less tournaments to promote community growth. Please dont put words in my mouth.

I think his point was that if you see more and closer tournaments as needed, then you should try running more tournaments which are closer. It might not apply to you directly, but more of an in general, if the tournaments are what's lacking, anyone can step up and host.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Examples?

Pikachu.

 

[wiiztec]

Actually to be honest I can. If you noticed I was on these boards for a long time. I was there when Shanus was in charge of Project M and when the idea of the game was being announced.(Lil after Brawl+ started to fail)

I was the one that gave the idea of using a demo to distribute the game during early development when people wanted BADLY and I mean BADLY to play it. Since they wanted to release it only when it was completed. I was hyped and excited for this game. I remember when Ike was an overpowered machine and remember watching FC tournament that was like the first HUGE Project M tournament to be played when Hbox won that was the era of Vro and Metroid, but I digress. Project M 3.02 is what turned me off and I stopped watching streams and caring for it. Sorry, I didn't mention that, but 2007 isn't next to my name for nothing.

Doesn't really refute what I said, anyways you shouldn't try it's common sense that you need to experience something adequately before you judge it

 

[Pkjoan]

I simply got bored of it, while Ganondorf and Zelda are good, it's not fair that everyone but the melee top tiers get changes and nerfs that force you a new playstyle. Also, I'm not a fan of PM stages.

 

[MLGF]

Wow, this topic isn't dead?
Shi-

Well OK, they took out all the fun that was in 3.0. Really? Let me be clear, like I'm not even going to sugarcoat this.

**** 3.0.

I know, throw torches at me. Burn me alive. PMDT put me on your ignore list. Whatever. When my region started having a scene however, it was honestly great and I had a lot of fun. Learning how to improve was amazing and the Melee players were more then happy to help the PM players get better fundamentally and it all happened really fast.

And then there were some other PM players here, who looked at the "jank" tools and abused them brutally. That Mario Pill spam on ledge M2K abused, there was a lot of that, there was a lot of boomerang abuse, and a ton of touch of death characters that no DI could prevent, there was a lot of defensive campy spammy BS and the offensive stuff felt honestly shallow. There were so many stupid tools that people used to win and it was clear PM was not going in the aggro direction of Melee becasue the safest options on the best characters were always based around defensive play. I mean, I'm an aggro player, and by the end of 3.0 I was getting decent results at my locals. But playing those matchups where people just tried covering themselves felt like the biggest chore. By the end of it, what carried me over was the rumors that 3.5 was actually going to be something better.

So when 3.5 was out and it rewarded offensive play, rewarded strong tech and going in, rewarded more natural interaction and better neutral games, and did not nearly as much reward relying on singular tools, I fell in love and I felt more motivated to improve then ever before. And honestly, I thought everyone would see it like that, that this was what the game should be like. Something that rewards smart play and strong fundamentals. And I was surprised when I saw the backlash, and we did lose a few people here who claimed that 3.5 ruined the "everyone is broken" approach, and by then the Melee players were not willing to play PM anymore (probably because they realized all the **** I hated about 3.0 was earlier then I). It always boggled me how people complained about that change to balance when the most hype players were always the people like Sethlon or Ally who used characters that no one thought were good in 3.0 and showed exciting and successful play with them regardless. It's irksome that now that the game rewards play like that on all levels, the lower level players (and it was primarily the lower level players in my scene) were the ones complaining about how 3.5 hurt the game.

Since 3.5, I have never felt like I lost to something incredibly lame or dull, generally matches are way more fun and exciting to watch and play. And honestly, as time passed, even my friends who at first were annoyed that their mains were nerfed way more then mine admitted I was right about 3.0. My gripes do not come from a Melee player, or a Brawl player, I started playing PM around 2.0 when the only way to get matches was on wifi. I was able to take it seriously starting last year when it took off. And I saw a huge decline in the entertainment in matches, both played and watched, as 3.0 proceeded to grow a meta exponentially quickly. If I were to be blunt, if 3.5 was just a meager 3.0 patch, things may even be worse because 3.0 was getting painfully dull to watch. Hearing these people complain about how 3.0 was different and unique, I wonder how much entertainment you took out of Junebug vs M2K and Mario just spamming pills on the ledge, or how it would feel to play Chudat's kirby seriously, and not just look at it like some tragic joke. God forbid 3.5 try to make the game fun to play and to watch, god forbid that you have to learn how to play characters in fun and unique ways that your opponent may find entertaining to fight against and not just the person playing him.

But hey, that's just me. PM's decline is clearly artificial interference made by Nintendo that has escalated into the minds of the players by paranoia. And yeah, I'm sure the vast changes were a bit shocking, but if you're really going to argue that 3.0 had nearly as fun player interaction, or more natural neutrals and interactions, you're ****ing bonkers.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Project M 3.02 was so full of crazy that if I told people the M stood for Marvel balancing they would have believed it.

 

[Gionni]

PM isn't dying. It's still getting plenty of tournament representation. The problem with this line of thinking isn't sound. It's generally based on APEX and CEO. PM isn't at APEX because of Nintendo's sponsorship. CEO isn't hosting PM because the director (position title correct?) has clarified that it would be difficult to host three different Smash games. Personally I think Smash 4 will die.

I honestly think that brawl will die much sooner then any of the smash games, but who knows, smash 64 is like my age and people still play it, smash 4 is too new to die

 

[MegaMissingno]

Alright, now that Apex is over, let's try to pick up the pieces and rebuild. No use sitting on our asses, we should get up and do something.

What majors are coming up that will have PM? Go play and go support them, get out there in full force to bolster PM's numbers and let the world know we're still alive. Anyone trying to make that "Revival of PM" idea happen? Maybe even try to get a large netplay tourney going, something to keep the folks at home engaged. Post it here, Reddit, anywhere else and try to make it a big one that could set a record for largest PM netplay tourney!

Are streamers that had been conspicuously ignoring PM for a while coming back now? Still wondering where those Beast 5 VODs are, GIMR...

Does the PMDT have anything planned for the near future? I've heard murmurings of a bugfix patch coming this month. If Wii U Gamecube Adapter support could happen, that would be absolutely wonderful for a lot of people. But I'm hoping some sort of big reveal or announcement is in the cards, that'll really get people excited about PM again. Even if new content isn't actually ready for release, just an announcement or trailer would still go a long way to build up hype for whenever it is ready. Now would be a really great time to finally lift the curtain on 47!

 

[zpxociv]

Nintendo embarrassed themselves at Apex so maybe they'll shy away from future involvement? No, of course not. This is Nintendo we're talking about and they just don't when to quit doing things wrong. I bet this entire year they'll be pushing sm4sh in every major tourney event. One more year of suffering. Nintendo will be like "We patched out Diddy's SSS-tier rabies and Hoo-Haa whooping cough, so it's safe to fight him now! Sm4sh is a good fighting game now! It should be at every major event now!"

One more year of suffering.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Nintendo embarrassed themselves at Apex so maybe they'll shy away from future involvement? No, of course not. This is Nintendo we're talking about and they just don't when to quit doing things wrong. I bet this entire year they'll be pushing sm4sh in every major tourney event. One more year of suffering. Nintendo will be like "We patched out Diddy's SSS-tier rabies and Hoo-Haa whooping cough, so it's safe to fight him now! Sm4sh is a good fighting game now! It should be at every major event now!"

One more year of suffering.

This is the type of attitude that does not help the case. Even if we lose some major tournaments, Nintendo aren't going to support them all and any good footage on the internet can generate some reaction.

What we need is a huge tournament, even online, to get people talking about PM again. Apex is over, the hype is getting down, there will be a while before the next huge major.

If we can organize something big this month, with a possible trailer from PMDT, we're golden.

 

[abcool]

Doesn't really refute what I said, anyways you shouldn't try it's common sense that you need to experience something adequately before you judge it

Dude, I won't run on with this. I played 3.0. I host tournaments for Project M 3.0 in the Bahamas and I disliked it and so did many Melee players. I left because of the janky recoveries and direction the game was going in. I mained Wario in 2.6 and used to follow Reflexwonder videos during his reign as the Wario champ. If you still want to argue over this then your problem. The whole " You haven't played it so you can't gauge it" argument has been proven wrong.

 

[wannabe33]

PM won't die, as a game is kept alive by its players and PM has a passionate group of supporters. But will PM decline in relevance? All signs point towards "yes, absolutely."

1. Silence from influential community leaders. GimR has distanced VGBC from any trace of PM -- no streaming Xanadu PM, no hosting umdsmash, and no mention of PM on social media. D1 and TK hardly reference PM anymore. Rumors abound about NDAs, and it's quite clear this distancing is calculated.

2. Nintendo pressure. This is self-explanatory. There is little reason to doubt Nintendo's continued presence at major events for the foreseeable future, and while rhetoric about "going grassroots" sounds nice, there will be no PM documentary and probably won't be a Smash 4 metagame implosion to lift PM back into prominence. Going grassroots might well mean staying grassroots.

3. 3.5 lacked casual appeal. It's got beautiful stage remakes, tons of new character costumes, a more balanced roster, a workable SSE, and some nice new single-player modes. Despite all this, the real draw of PM for many- maybe most- players is new content, specifically new character content. I first got into PM because I wanted to play as Mewtwo and Roy, and I can tell you many of my friends and fellow Smashers were motivated to install PM for the same reason. PM3.0 wasn't as popular as it was by accident. You all may disagree, but I maintain the PMDT missed a big opportunity to generate buzz and bring in fresh players by including a new character or two into 3.5; it would have risked C&D (more than PM already risks C&D, anyway), but that was a risk worth taking.

4. Smash 4 filling PM's slot as the token "second Smash." #oneunit is a farce (a reality that should be setting in for everyone here in light of PM's marginalization), and the truth of the matter is that the Smash scene is only so big and can only support so many games. With Smash 4 bringing in a bevy of newcomers, TOs would be foolish not to include a Smash 4 bracket, and Melee's inclusion is more or less automatic. PM, then, can only find a home at tournaments that (i) aren't sponsored by Nintendo, and (ii) are willing to host more than two Smash titles. Simply put, Smash 4 and PM are in direct competition with one another, and one side is clearly winning.

Optimism about PM's future is groundless. PM will be featured only in smaller tournaments and on smaller streams; PM will receive dwindling exposure and new players will instead flock towards Melee and Smash 4. And as the PM scene grows smaller, more and more TOs will feel comfortable nixing the game from their lineups. It's a cascading effect.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

PM won't die, as a game is kept alive by its players and PM has a passionate group of supporters. But will PM decline in relevance? All signs point towards "yes, absolutely."

1. Silence from influential community leaders. GimR has distanced VGBC from any trace of PM -- no streaming Xanadu PM, no hosting umdsmash, and no mention of PM on social media. D1 and TK hardly reference PM anymore. Rumors abound about NDAs, and it's quite clear this distancing is calculated.

2. Nintendo pressure. This is self-explanatory. There is little reason to doubt Nintendo's continued presence at major events for the foreseeable future, and while rhetoric about "going grassroots" sounds nice, there will be no PM documentary and probably won't be a Smash 4 metagame implosion to lift PM back into prominence. Going grassroots might well mean staying grassroots.

3. 3.5 lacked casual appeal. It's got beautiful stage remakes, tons of new character costumes, a more balanced roster, a workable SSE, and some nice new single-player modes. Despite all this, the real draw of PM for many- maybe most- players is new content, specifically new character content. I first got into PM because I wanted to play as Mewtwo and Roy, and I can tell you many of my friends and fellow Smashers were motivated to install PM for the same reason. PM3.0 wasn't as popular as it was by accident. You all may disagree, but I maintain the PMDT missed a big opportunity to generate buzz and bring in fresh players by including a new character or two into 3.5; it would have risked C&D (more than PM already risks C&D, anyway), but that was a risk worth taking.

4. Smash 4 filling PM's slot as the token "second Smash." #oneunit is a farce (a reality that should be setting in for everyone here in light of PM's marginalization), and the truth of the matter is that the Smash scene is only so big and can only support so many games. With Smash 4 bringing in a bevy of newcomers, TOs would be foolish not to include a Smash 4 bracket, and Melee's inclusion is more or less automatic. PM, then, can only find a home at tournaments that (i) aren't sponsored by Nintendo, and (ii) are willing to host more than two Smash titles. Simply put, Smash 4 and PM are in direct competition with one another, and one side is clearly winning.

Optimism about PM's future is groundless. PM will be featured only in smaller tournaments and on smaller streams; PM will receive dwindling exposure and new players will instead flock towards Melee and Smash 4. And as the PM scene grows smaller, more and more TOs will feel comfortable nixing the game from their lineups. It's a cascading effect.

So are you saying that we should let PM nearly die and live in life-support like Brawl?

The only thing really shutting down PM right now is Nintendo exerting pressure on the backstage. Why do you think major streamers and TO's aren't talking about PM?

Also, 3.5 lacking casual appeal? You said it yourself, SSE working with Melee mechanics, New costumes for everyone not called Roy, Great stage remakes. We don't need new characters every patch, and if the rumors saying the next patch will have more characters are true, we got this.

Smash 4 is kinda imploding right now. The excessive campy play and Diddy going ham Falcon 64 style ain't doing the metagame favors either.

Also, it's not like we want PM to be the main event of every tournament, if PM gets at least streamed side-events with good players, it's going to be fine, and that is certainly feasible.


Now, with that out of the way, do we have a TO with good online tournament experience up in this thread? Does someone know if the PMDT has something to show about the next patch or anything?
I can't emphasize that enough, there are no big tournaments going on right after Apex, the moment to strike is now!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Are streamers that had been conspicuously ignoring PM for a while coming back now? Still wondering where those Beast 5 VODs are, GIMR...

Outside of Sky I'm not sure what a lot of other people have been or want to say on the subject about PM and it's future. I thought I saw someone say on twitter or reddit they were going to release something but a lot of it was mostly about the poor behavior on twitch and at the venue from the Melee players.

The only clear thing is that anything official will have PM axe'd. Outside of that I haven't found anything regarding PM stuff.

 

[Rizner]

So are you saying that we should let PM nearly die and live in life-support like Brawl?

The only thing really shutting down PM right now is Nintendo exerting pressure on the backstage. Why do you think major streamers and TO's aren't talking about PM?

Also, 3.5 lacking casual appeal? You said it yourself, SSE working with Melee mechanics, New costumes for everyone not called Roy, Great stage remakes. We don't need new characters every patch, and if the rumors saying the next patch will have more characters are true, we got this.

Smash 4 is kinda imploding right now. The excessive campy play and Diddy going ham Falcon 64 style ain't doing the metagame favors either.

Also, it's not like we want PM to be the main event of every tournament, if PM gets at least streamed side-events with good players, it's going to be fine, and that is certainly feasible.


Now, with that out of the way, do we have a TO with good online tournament experience up in this thread? Does someone know if the PMDT has something to show about the next patch or anything?
I can't emphasize that enough, there are no big tournaments going on right after Apex, the moment to strike is now!

I don't think an online tournament will be relevant. Often online play for smash is considered lesser than irl play because lag is always an issue, and buffer is on for pm and whatnot.
Also, casual to competitive appeal is what was missing. An upgraded sse, new costumes, updated graphics on a couple stages are nice, but they aren't things that drive people out of their house and to pm events. It gets people who are interested already to say that's cool, or gets people to download and play with themselves, but it doesn't help tournaments grow, scenes to get bigger or new people super interested in the game for the first time

 

[MechWarriorNY]

tl;dr:

 

[wannabe33]

So are you saying that we should let PM nearly die and live in life-support like Brawl?

The only thing really shutting down PM right now is Nintendo exerting pressure on the backstage. Why do you think major streamers and TO's aren't talking about PM?

Also, 3.5 lacking casual appeal? You said it yourself, SSE working with Melee mechanics, New costumes for everyone not called Roy, Great stage remakes. We don't need new characters every patch, and if the rumors saying the next patch will have more characters are true, we got this.

Smash 4 is kinda imploding right now. The excessive campy play and Diddy going ham Falcon 64 style ain't doing the metagame favors either.

Also, it's not like we want PM to be the main event of every tournament, if PM gets at least streamed side-events with good players, it's going to be fine, and that is certainly feasible.


Now, with that out of the way, do we have a TO with good online tournament experience up in this thread? Does someone know if the PMDT has something to show about the next patch or anything?
I can't emphasize that enough, there are no big tournaments going on right after Apex, the moment to strike is now!

In case I was not sufficiently clear in my previous post, PM is my favorite game- not favorite Smash game, favorite game period- and I would sell a kidney for its continued growth and prominence. The arguments made in my post were for why I believe PM will likely decline in relevance, not why I want it to decline in relevance. That's the opposite of how I feel.

Two further thoughts:

1. Smash 4 is a better-balanced, mechanically simplified Brawl. That's all it is. Its barriers of entry are incredibly low and it's appealing to new players. I agree that it's a chore to watch, but considering how many newcomers have picked up Smash 4 "competitively," I doubt it'll struggle to bring TOs money for a long, long while. What I'm interested to see is how the FGC reacts to Smash 4's defensive, campy play at EVO. You thought Melee fans were "toxic" towards the game? Hoo, boy. Prepare for a rude awakening.

2. What's this about rumors of new characters?

 

[MegaMissingno]

It's been confirmed many times that new characters are in the works. They haven't revealed who yet, I think now would be a good time to finally pull the curtain back.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

In case I was not sufficiently clear in my previous post, PM is my favorite game- not favorite Smash game, favorite game period- and I would sell a kidney for its continued growth and prominence. The arguments made in my post were for why I believe PM will likely decline in relevance, not why I want it to decline in relevance. That's the opposite of how I feel.

Two further thoughts:

1. Smash 4 is a better-balanced, mechanically simplified Brawl. That's all it is. Its barriers of entry are incredibly low and it's appealing to new players. I agree that it's a chore to watch, but considering how many newcomers have picked up Smash 4 "competitively," I doubt it'll struggle to bring TOs money for a long, long while. What I'm interested to see is how the FGC reacts to Smash 4's defensive, campy play at EVO. You thought Melee fans were "toxic" towards the game? Hoo, boy. Prepare for a rude awakening.

2. What's this about rumors of new characters?

I didn't say that you hated PM or anything of the sort. I just refuse to accept that PM is going down the Brawl route and fast.
You made some good points, and I understand them. However, I want to stop them from turning into facts.

We both know that the FGC will despise Smash 4. Just look at their reaction from Chris G's Marvel playstyle.

There are rumors about new characters, can't confirm nor deny it. It would be a great thing to happen.

 

[Terotrous]

And then there were some other PM players here, who looked at the "jank" tools and abused them brutally. That Mario Pill spam on ledge M2K abused, there was a lot of that, there was a lot of boomerang abuse, and a ton of touch of death characters that no DI could prevent, there was a lot of defensive campy spammy BS and the offensive stuff felt honestly shallow.

Wait, when did this thread become about Melee? I thought we were talking about PM in this thread.


Seriously though, Melee is like 100% jank, it's just jank that people are very used to. Touch of death chainthrows? One frame invincible moves with static knockback? Stupidly spammable missiles and lasers? Bullcrap ledgestalling? Melee's got the complete package, and most people will complain if this stuff gets taken out of PM.


Honestly, the moment I saw the change Smash4 made to the way ledges operate, I knew this was something that every Smash game should have (it's far better than the random "you can grab precisely 5 times" variant that PM uses), but there's no way it's ever happening. Melee and PM are jank games where abusing dumb strategies is the name of the game and that's how it's always going to be. Step up your own jank strategies so you don't get outjanked.

1. Smash 4 is a better-balanced, mechanically simplified Brawl. That's all it is.

It's really not. The removal of hitstun cancelling and projectile autocancelling alone drastically change the game.

I agree that it's a chore to watch, but considering how many newcomers have picked up Smash 4 "competitively," I doubt it'll struggle to bring TOs money for a long, long while. What I'm interested to see is how the FGC reacts to Smash 4's defensive, campy play at EVO. You thought Melee fans were "toxic" towards the game?

Doesn't seem like people had much of a problem with it at Apex.

 

[metaXzero]

Seriously though, Melee is like 100% jank, it's just jank that people are very used to. Touch of death chainthrows? One frame invincible moves with static knockback? Stupidly spammable missiles and lasers? Bullcrap ledgestalling? Melee's got the complete package, and most people will complain if this stuff gets taken out of PM.

Melee jank is a whole different level below PM jank prior to 3.5. And some of that Melee jank got taken out anyway. Sheik doesn't have her silly chaingrab that rendered half the cast irrelevent, Fox and Falco don't have invincibility on their shines anymore, and the ledge invincibility limit kills indefinite ledgestalling

Honestly, the moment I saw the change Smash4 made to the way ledges operate, I knew this was something that every Smash game should have (it's far better than the random "you can grab precisely 5 times" variant that PM uses), but there's no way it's ever happening. Melee and PM are jank games where abusing dumb strategies is the name of the game and that's how it's always going to be. Step up your own jank strategies so you don't get outjanked.

How is it far better? All I see when I look at Smash 4 ledges is people living forever and being discouraged from edgeguarding as you go to higher levels of skill. And PM's ledge mechanic is to still allow a little stalling without it being bullcrap. The number is arbitrary, but it's not a bad number.

It's really not. The removal of hitstun cancelling and projectile autocancelling alone drastically change the game.

Stocks still last a long time despite the removal of hitstun canceling. And projectile autocanceling wasn't a universal mechanic. It being removed just nerfs the characters with it (which I feel like were just Fox, Falco, and Samus). But lets not talk about Smash 4 here.

Doesn't seem like people had much of a problem with it at Apex.

The FGC weren't forced to watch it while waiting for their own Grand Finals last I checked. Things will be different at EVO. And that crowd has slammed Melee for taking too long in the past.

 

[TTTTTsd]

P:M dying IMO is basically impossible unless Nintendo ACTIVELY C&Ds the damn thing out of existence. Will it be in every major? Maybe not, depending on how many Nintendo actually sponsors, blah blah logistics and numbers.

But stuff like The Big House, grassroots stuff, P:M will live. If 64 is still alive to this day thanks to a dedicated scene, I'm sure P:M can do the same.

I don't like to breed paranoid thought that Nintendo is going to actively shut it down because outside of a C&D that's actively impossible, and if they wanted this thing gone like that it would've happened 1 year ago. I'm not too worried, honestly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Removing invisibility doesn't change how powerful shine as a move is in Melee and PM. That might have removed some power but the overall utility of the moves are still there.