People are worried about Project M dying, what do you think?

[Rizner]

That means that there are going to be some things that don't change on everyone, but it also means that there will be things that are unique to that one character, like the example of dk having cargo throw. Lucario certainly doesn't follow some rules that the other characters follow, but that doesn't mean he's doing it to the point that ruins the structure of the game.



This is a really bad argument and you're putting words in my mouth.

Or... like... Wolf being able to jump if his side b hits. The point I was making wasn't that this mechanic should stay or go or whatever, it's that unique things happen for characters and removing them based on that fact alone is stupid.

I want good reasoning behind decisions, not just good decisions based on bad reasoning. Like, if pmdt came up and said we removed tripping, because the animations were really stupid. That's a bad thing. They removed tripping for a reason outside of that.

Does that make sense?


Regardless, I feel like I've caused this thread to derail a bit.

I'd say PM has declined some both in fact of smash 4 and with 3.5, and I think going forward if reasoning behind changes were given in the patch notes (yes, each change specifically) it could help users accept the changes or debate about them with one another better. It's hard right now, because someone says they changed (x) move for (y) reason, then the next guy says no they changed it for something else. Be more transparent, I guess, even if the transparency is after the fact.

 

[Bleck]

This is a really bad argument and you're putting words in my mouth.

I don't know man basically it sounds like you might hate fun

 

[Bleck]

double post

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I'm a tier ***** who ported Roy from Melee, now I feel bad for contributing.

 

[Terotrous]

If you want to get technical. Project M can be considered to still be in the development process and that were are just playing beta versions of the game. :L

I'm pretty sure at the time they advertised 3.0 as being kind of like the first "official" release. People clearly treated it that way, in any case.

I'd say PM has declined some both in fact of smash 4 and with 3.5, and I think going forward if reasoning behind changes were given in the patch notes (yes, each change specifically) it could help users accept the changes or debate about them with one another better. It's hard right now, because someone says they changed (x) move for (y) reason, then the next guy says no they changed it for something else. Be more transparent, I guess, even if the transparency is after the fact.

Honestly I feel that at this point changes should really occur as a result of open discussions with the community. PM is an extremely community-driven game, there's no reason to have all of the decisions made by a shadowy cabal of back roomers, particularly since the developers are also players.

I feel like if there had been a thread from the PM Dev team about "Recoveries: which ones do you feel are too strong and how would you fix it?" or something, and people could give their opinions, it would have been better received. I mean, obviously they aren't going to take everyone's suggestions, but at least letting the players have some input to help create the type of game they want to play would probably help.

Unfortunately, the PM Dev team's public opinion towards the forum has pretty much always been "your opinions are stupid and we never listen to anything you guys have to say", which doesn't exactly send a good message when they make a bunch of changes that no one asked for, it just looks like they're out of touch with the community.

 

[metaXzero]

Yes, during game development. Not post-release though. Once the game is out you basically just have to let the metagame develop on its own, and only tweak it when absolutely necessary, like I was saying in a previous post.

Project M IS still in development though. We have not hit gold release yet. The PMDT has said once we hit gold, they will cease with large scale changes and only focus on bugs and particularly bad character balance issues. With 3.5 passed, they are closer to that goal than they would be trying to fix 3.02

I don't really have an exact number, but I'd expect to see a bit more of a slow decline than an instant drop if the patch was successful.

Why though? Again, this wasn't simply 3.5 coming out and a mass chunk of people hating it and quitting. A new Smash bros game was just coming out and near all eyes were upon it. Many had already planned on leaving PM behind whether for good or at least unless Smash 4 proved to be just that bad. It doesn't matter if 3.5 was just 3.02 with recovery nerfs, with new characters, or nothing changed at all. We were guaranteed a "sharp" drop as people went on to explore the new game.

I think we're in a pretty different place now than we were when Melee came out though. A lot has changed in the community since then - streams are way more prevalent, Melee is still being played, we already went through the disappointment that was Brawl, Smash has found some degree of acceptance within the FGC, etc.

I don't think it's quite an apples to apples comparison.

I don't see how any of that makes a difference in the situation though. None of that changes the fact a new and hyped Smash Bros. game was coming out. In the FGC, most games straight up die when their sequels come out. While PM isn't Smash 4's prequel, it did inherit alot of Brawl's audience due to being a Brawl mod and Brawl itself being phased out competitively in alot of areas in favor of PM.

 

[Terotrous]

Project M IS still in development though. We have not hit gold release yet.

The thing is that PM received such a wide release that it functionally was a gold release even if they didn't consider it to be one. PM has likely already passed its peak popularity.

Many had already planned on leaving PM behind whether for good or at least unless Smash 4 proved to be just that bad.

I didn't really see much of this. Sure, some people probably got into PM to tide them over till Smash4, but I didn't see a lot of people saying "I'm just here until Smash4 comes out, then I'm done". Since Smash4 and PM are quite different games, and many players have no problems playing multiple Smash games, I think a fair number might have stayed if they were still having fun.

I don't see how any of that makes a difference in the situation though. None of that changes the fact a new and hyped Smash Bros. game was coming out.

When Brawl came out, the hype was through the stratosphere and we had never experienced a "bad" smash game before. No one even contemplated the fact that Brawl might be a broken mess (we were so naive back then), so of course they moved straight on to Brawl when the game came out. We're much more jaded now, though, like half the Smash community had already decided that Smash4 was a failure when it was first shown at E3.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

It feels like 3.0 will be the most exciting release in PM's history once we look back on everything.

Finishing the Brawl roster, adding Mewtwo and Roy, new alternate costumes first showing, and nothing major released in SSB at that period made it that way.

People aren't going to look at later releases with as much excitement as 3.0, at least until the definitive final content update. I feel like that, paired with 3.5 being released between U.S 3DS and overall Wii U Smash 4, are why Project M feels more stagnant nowadays than 3.0 days. Don't get me wrong, 3.5 was an incredible update content-wise, but it's not as exciting as 3.0's initial release. We just have to wade through it and do what we can to keep PM stronk until it sees better days. I feel like PM will truly shine again once Smash 4 hits the year after release point.

Overall, I don't feel like there is anything threatening to kill PM, it's just about keeping the everyday PM player talking about it and streaming, getting attendance up in tournaments, and being patient to see it blossom as much as possible later. We might be worrying too much about other things.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Or... like... Wolf being able to jump if his side b hits. The point I was making wasn't that this mechanic should stay or go or whatever, it's that unique things happen for characters and removing them based on that fact alone is stupid.

I want good reasoning behind decisions, not just good decisions based on bad reasoning. Like, if pmdt came up and said we removed tripping, because the animations were really stupid. That's a bad thing. They removed tripping for a reason outside of that.

Does that make sense?

No that makes sense. It's a hard line to draw when making those decisions, so I can understand the way you feel and wanting a legitimate reason for the change. To my understanding, the reason behind the change was due to the global nerf to recoveries and traits that felt too strong on the roster. Getting rid of the double jump was the best way to tone down the move in a reasonable manner, without having to affect the move's other special properties, but that's the last I'll be saying on this topic, I agree we've been off topic for too long. If you still wish to continue this discussion, we can take it somewhere else, or you could message me.

 

[Bleck]

I feel like "the PMDT has attitudes about the ongoing development of Project M that seem to clash with what at least some people want" is pretty on-topic with "people might be losing interest in Project M"

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I was commenting on the subject of just wolf's side b change. There was too much focus on that one specific thing for too long, but the changes as a whole, and the impact on the player base, yes those do pertain to the current topic.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Sonic,s new homing/blast attack does, and its still a good move.

Dont remember it being powerful kill move, but sure.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I don't know man basically it sounds like you might hate fun

YOU have no place to talk, there.

 

[Blank Mauser]

But that would just end up punishing the player more. Most nerfs throught PM have been because someone discovered something and it became op. These changes were made for the health of the game, but the player could have felt dismotivated for these nerfs.

Taking most of the bs away right off the bat is way better since on the long run it minimizes the amount of nerfs/bufs that have to be made in future patches.

See you hope for this to work out in practice but it often doesn't. Like MvC3. They nerfed Jill's infinite and tech with her that apparently "No one had found but would've been insanely broken." Looking at the state of the game now with TAC infinites and stall-outs everywhere, and a metagame where Jill sucks and can barely even get in on her opponent, can anyone honestly even imagine that to be true?

Pre-emptively nerfing means we never get to see things play out and compare it to the grand scale. Which may be for the best for some, but I feel it cuts down on the discovery. If you're truly a good player you can adapt to the changes later. People are more discouraged when their characters get nerfed when they feel it wasn't warranted. I would be a lot happier with this approach if say PMDT slowly re-added things, with the notion that today's metagame could actually support it.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

See you hope for this to work out in practice but it often doesn't. Like MvC3. They nerfed Jill's infinite and tech with her that apparently "No one had found but would've been insanely broken." Looking at the state of the game now with TAC infinites and stall-outs everywhere, and a metagame where Jill sucks and can barely even get in on her opponent, can anyone honestly even imagine that to be true?

Pre-emptively nerfing means we never get to see things play out and compare it to the grand scale. Which may be for the best for some, but I feel it cuts down on the discovery. If you're truly a good player you can adapt to the changes later. People are more discouraged when their characters get nerfed when they feel it wasn't warranted. I would be a lot happier with this approach if say PMDT slowly re-added things, with the notion that today's metagame could actually support it.

MvC3 is different. The game is designed to be a broken mess full of infinites.

The problem with 3.02 was that the power creep was getting in the way of the PMDT's original goal. And let's be honest. 3.02 wasn't the final release, any patches after that would get the short end of the stick.
Especially with Smash 4 around.
If the next patch was going to be unpopular for any reason, why not optimize it?

That's why the PMDT wanted to finish the power creep right at 3.5. If 4.0 gets released with the new characters like some people said (I hope Dark Samus get in.) the balance will be favorable to their metagame and they will have time to properly develop.
I think this was a good decision.

What nobody expect was Strife (And Nintendo?) trying to off PM. That's why the current competitive scene is stagnant. When the majors start coming back, things will get real hype, real fast.

 

[Banjodorf]

I'd just like for Melee species to not be the toppest of tiers, personally. I've never found them very entertaining to watch. But yeah, something like 3.5 had to be done eventually, and now we're one step closer to final release.

Once 4.0 comes out and presumably we get the final set of new character additions or whatever, hopefully we can start creating a solid metagame without obvious substantial changes coming every few months.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

They die in one-two comboes if you stay on them.
Much of this discussion is valid but no johns pls~

It's not John's about, "omg Spacies op" it's that their design in Melee and PM is atrocious. Legit one of the worst in the smash series.

It's apparent when the PM team has been making a lot of characters have spacies specific stuff just to fight them.

 

[Roche_CL]

I have talked about this with my friends, and many of us are kinda upset with all the nerfs of 3.5
Melee is fun not because you can Fsmash with roy, or haveing a meh mario fireball, its good cause you can pilar with falco, combo with marth, and shine spike with fox. Those gimmicks make the game really fun and its only OP when other chars doesn't have tools to catch up. When chars are full of stupidness like diddy had, of course you gotta nerf something.
But they nerf the entire cast, even those that weren't a problem.
Why is melee so cool? Cause you have lots of options, you can wavedash, dash dance, spam aerials near ground, etc. Taking away options kills the game, thats why Brawl felt so akward (don't mean to start a war here, just my opinion).
They took away zss dash cancel, wario's running grab animation, they took wolf's laser cancel, cmooon, those weren't broken mechanichs.
You can always nerf damage and knockback, but nerfing options is just plain bad (unless its clearly broken).

This added to smash4 release has taken a lot of players to try the new game, and abandon the "nerfed" version of PM, at least in my region.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Why is melee so cool? Cause you have lots of options, you can wavedash, dash dance, spam aerials near ground, etc. Taking away options kills the game, thats why Brawl felt so akward (don't mean to start a war here, just my opinion).
They took away zss dash cancel, wario's running grab animation, they took wolf's laser cancel, cmooon, those weren't broken mechanichs.
You can always nerf damage and knockback, but nerfing options is just plain bad (unless its clearly broken).

Yo, you can do all that tech in PM too. Just sayin'.
And besides, can you sic Mewtwo against Lucario in any smash game?

While I do understand that there were a bit too many nerfs, it was necessary, and that way, some currently underpowered characters can get buffed in the next patch without starting a crazy power creep like the one that ended in 3.02.

Now if the PMDT could find a way to nerf Fox without changing his Melee style...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You can do that with mewtwo vs Lucario In smash 4 when he is DLC.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

It's not John's about, "omg Spacies op" it's that their design in Melee and PM is atrocious. Legit one of the worst in the smash series.

It's apparent when the PM team has been making a lot of characters have spacies specific stuff just to fight them.

I wish we had a proper explanation as to why they're designed the way they are other than "cuz melee, bro".

 

[MechWarriorNY]

inb4"Because we said so."

 

[GabPR]

Dont remember it being powerful kill move, but sure.

Tell that to spacie mains

 

[MechWarriorNY]

The only things that happens in this thread are flaming and rehashes of old arguments that have been done countless times before.
Can we get a lock, already?

 

[ChiePet]

PM is dead RIPInPiece.

No, but It's not dying, Smash4 came out; honestly refuse to buy a WiiU much less play ANOTHER Brawl..

And Peach and Jiggz aren't Top at All in PM, the **** is wrong with this! Bleh, Sick.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

honestly refuse to buy a WiiU much less play ANOTHER Brawl..

it's not Brawl 2.0.

 

[ChiePet]

it's not Brawl 2.0.

It's felt like it, but again, I refuse (coughCantAffordcough) to buy a WiiU, so the 3DS gameplay and small amount of WiiU w/GC gameplay I've had made it seem very lackluster..

 

[Strong Badam]

well this thread sure went off topic..... in part thanks to a moderator???
no longer about whether or not pm is dying, or how to help prevent it if is, is now a e-peen contest thread of people thinking they know how to make the best game or talk about what the best game is or how bad other games are. really sad :\

 

[ChiePet]

I mean..

At least it's distracted anyone away from "RIPInPiece PM" the thread.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Tell that to spacie mains

Good vs spacies is different to good vs everyone.

 

[Fortress]

is now a e-peen contest thread of people thinking they know how to make the best game or talk about what the best game is or how bad other games are. really sad :\

Give Falco 9 additional frames of landing lag on Blaster, and decrease its hitstun value by 4 frames. You're welcome.

Smash 4 is fun.

Melee's hard.

Project M is pretty fine.

Is this still going on?

 

[GabPR]

Good vs spacies is different to good vs everyone.

True, but its the most comparable move that fits your description.

 

[DraconisMarch]

it's not Brawl 2.0.

It may be better than Brawl, but the similarities in "tech skill"/"mechanics" (or lack thereof) and much slower [than any other Smash game] pace and floatiness and general flow of gameplay makes it the closest relative by a large margin. I think "Brawl 2.0" is a pretty appropriate moniker.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Smash 4 is a lot like Brawl, honestly. At least, it seems the closest thing there is to it. Not saying it's Brawl 2.0 exactly, but the similiarities are undeniable.What I like about it is that the game isn't strict with spacing and neutral game like Brawl was. In Brawl, I would get punished for the dumbest things ever. Smash 4 is so chill.

 

[Foo]

I'd definitely say sm4sh is brawl 2: Electric Boogaloo. It's not the same game, don't get me wrong, but it seems like the first time nintendo actually settled on how the game should play. Melee was incredibly different from 64, and brawl was incredibly different from melee. Melee was like a spiritual successor to 64 and brawl was like a spiritual successor to melee, Sm4sh four is the first one that feels like an actual sequel.

Keep in mind, brawl 2 doesn't mean "another brawl" it really means "the sequel to brawl." That just means that brawl and sm4sh four are similar enough, that most of the changes between the two games are tweaks and additions (additions include stuff like new characters and stages, not new mechanics) without many drastic changes to the mechanics and physics It doesn't mean it's brawl with a new hat. The only major mechanic change between brawl and sm4sh imo is the new no ledgehogging thing, and then there's lots and lots of tweaks and some new content to play with.

Brawl 2 isn't really an insult anyway. Can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are a few terrible awful games that have good sequels.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Brawl 2 isn't really an insult anyway. Can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are a few terrible awful games that have good sequels.

Street Fighter. (Maybe it's not terrible, but it's certainly massively lackluster compared to it's sequel.)

 

[Bleck]

Smash 4 already has a lot of tech-skill stuff that really opens up the metagame in interesting ways - but it's actually more frame specific stuff than any previous Smash has had, including Melee.

Brawl had a lot of problems, sure, but Smash 4 doesn't really share any of them, and I'm pretty sure anyone who thinks it does watched one or two matches of people playing the game two or three days after it came out and was (unreasonably) surprised when people playing had no idea what they were doing - I've been watching videos of aMSa playing Greninja recently and like when people actually have perfect pivoting and other things down you'd be surprised how fast and technical the game gets.

I'm sure there are a few terrible awful games that have good sequels.

Metroid.

 

[Rizner]

Yeah, this went way off topic lol. I think there need to be people who step up for pm only events more. I went to one in Columbus, Ohio last weekend which went really well, and am trying to get to Phoenix next month for another. Try hosting them in your region, advertise for it, check the result. No melee, no 4, just pm (singles, doubles, maybe a random event if time permits). Until many regions can do this successfully, I feel like the game's health is in jeopardy.

 

[Bleck]

The problem is that "just host more PM events" doesn't address whether or not people will actually be interested in PM-only events - all people in this thread (and I'm guessing any time anyone expresses as much in real life, too) who've responded to any potential reasons as to why PM may not be that interesting for people have been sort of browbeaten down.

Telling people that they're wrong to feel dissatisfied with the mod is not going to make them magically more interested in playing and/or watching it.

 

[Rizner]

The problem is that "just host more PM events" doesn't address whether or not people will actually be interested in PM-only events - all people in this thread (and I'm guessing any time anyone expresses as much in real life, too) who've responded to any potential reasons as to why PM may not be that interesting for people have been sort of browbeaten down.

Telling people that they're wrong to feel dissatisfied with the mod is not going to make them magically more interested in playing and/or watching it.

No, but until people try and see and check they don't really know. I agree that is a fair way to feel, but it's still possible to get people together again and see what you can make out of what we have now. What needs to be changed in 4.0 is definitely worth talking about, but talking about why smash 4 is good or bad or how it relates to brawl isn't - at least not here.