People are worried about Project M dying, what do you think?

[TTTTTsd]

Removing invisibility doesn't change how powerful shine as a move is in Melee and PM. That might have removed some power but the overall utility of the moves are still there.

It's a fairly significant change in the grand scheme of things IMO. It doesn't magically fix Fox or anything (although Falco in P:M is basically fine as far as I'm concerned for a number of reasons) but now any Up+Bs that have invul for their first few frames can feasibly fight it (Mario for instance can Up+B if they shine wrong now and actually beat Shine I believe thanks to his Up+B)

Doesn't magically fix Fox or anything but it's a start! The other spacies are fine to my knowledge, Falco isn't as dominant as Fox is, and Wolf is weird but not ridic. Really just Fox IMO.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's a fairly significant change in the grand scheme of things IMO. It doesn't magically fix Fox or anything (although Falco in P:M is basically fine as far as I'm concerned for a number of reasons) but now any Up+Bs that have invul for their first few frames can feasibly fight it (Mario for instance can Up+B if they shine wrong now and actually beat Shine I believe thanks to his Up+B)

Doesn't magically fix Fox or anything but it's a start! The other spacies are fine to my knowledge, Falco isn't as dominant as Fox is, and Wolf is weird but not ridic. Really just Fox IMO.

I mean, it helps.

But it doesnt change the core thing with the moves, it's extremely versatile for utility. It does a lot of things all in one move.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mean, it helps.

But it doesnt change the core thing with the moves, it's extremely versatile for utility. It does a lot of things all in one move.

The thing is while it is like that and is really REALLY big for Fox's kit, I think if you toned down just how FAST he racked up damage it would be a lot less annoying.

What I really think is that Fox builds up DAMAGE too fast for what he can do. Leave Falco's as is because in most accounts he is noticeably slower, etc. reasons. A character as fast as Fox hits way too hard, that's really my big gripe with him lol. You could probably shrink his shine hitbox to be like Falco's too if you really wanted (Yes Falco's is actually noticeably smaller than Fox's)

As far as P:M's life goes, to elaborate, I doubt it's going to die, but it's growth is going to slow down for two reasons. Nintendo sponsorships appearing and Smash 4's new game stuff going around. I doubt it's going to die anytime soon but it's going to be lulled for a bit.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The thing is while it is like that and is really REALLY big for Fox's kit, I think if you toned down just how FAST he racked up damage it would be a lot less annoying.

What I really think is that Fox builds up DAMAGE too fast for what he can do. Leave Falco's as is because in most accounts he is noticeably slower, etc. reasons. A character as fast as Fox hits way too hard, that's really my big gripe with him lol. You could probably shrink his shine hitbox to be like Falco's too if you really wanted (Yes Falco's is actually noticeably smaller than Fox's)

As far as P:M's life goes, to elaborate, I doubt it's going to die, but it's growth is going to slow down for two reasons. Nintendo sponsorships appearing and Smash 4's new game stuff going around. I doubt it's going to die anytime soon but it's going to be lulled for a bit.

Shrinking the hitbox would definitely help, this is my biggest issue with it in Melee is how huge it is. I'm ok with a move having utility, just I think when it does all that on top of what it already does as a way to reflect projectiles then I ask does it really need to do all this on top of what it already did? It makes more more accept how Brawl and Smash 4 nerfed it given how ridiculous it was.

I don't think it will and I wouldn't expect Nintendo to shut it down. Nintendo more or less seems ok with it existing as long as someone doesn't force them to take action against it, aka hosting it as EVO or anything with Nintendo's name in it. I'd be thankful for that at least given they seem to not want to do such provided no one gives them a reason to.

 

[Terotrous]

How is it far better? All I see when I look at Smash 4 ledges is people living forever and being discouraged from edgeguarding as you go to higher levels of skill. And PM's ledge mechanic is to still allow a little stalling without it being bullcrap. The number is arbitrary, but it's not a bad number.

The problem with the existing ledge mechanic is that conceptually, the ledge should be the absolute worst place to be from a defensive standpoint. The whole point of stage control is to control the center stage position. However, in Melee / PM, the ledge is often one of the very best defensive positions since you can stall for invincibility in various ways. In Smash 4, the moment you grab once, there's no more invincibility for you. This is really how it always should have worked.


Also, edgeguards in Smash4 are becoming more real all the time, people just need to get used to trumping and off-stage edgeguarding.

Stocks still last a long time despite the removal of hitstun canceling.

That's largely just because recoveries are better. Granted, 3 stock is not particularly long in Smash4, the main reason they went to 2-stock is just because people are lazy and they want to get out of the venues faster.

And projectile autocanceling wasn't a universal mechanic

It was pretty universal in Brawl at least.

The FGC weren't forced to watch it while waiting for their own Grand Finals last I checked. Things will be different at EVO. And that crowd has slammed Melee for taking too long in the past.

Well no one likes watching grand finals for any game they don't play. Even SF4 gets the "when's Mahvel" thing (and Marvel gets "when's SF4" You can't please everyone)

 

[metaXzero]

The problem with the existing ledge mechanic is that conceptually, the ledge should be the absolute worst place to be from a defensive standpoint. The whole point of stage control is to control the center stage position. However, in Melee / PM, the ledge is often one of the very best defensive positions since you can stall for invincibility in various ways. In Smash 4, the moment you grab once, there's no more invincibility for you. This is really how it always should have worked.


Also, edgeguards in Smash4 are becoming more real all the time, people just need to get used to trumping and off-stage edgeguarding.

Regardless of how it "should" have been, people did still like some things about the Melee ledges (like just using them to avoid respawn invincible characters or to slow the match down for a moment of recollection) and saying one is far better is a bit much. PM's system is supposed to be a middle ground between the 2 Get rid of the near 100% defense that Melee ledges could provide, but still give those who for whatever reason have their back against the wall some benefit. I prefer it over the crazy recoveries honestly.

That's largely just because recoveries are better. Granted, 3 stock is not particularly long in Smash4, the main reason they went to 2-stock is just because people are lazy and they want to get out of the venues faster.

Smash 4 and Melee ran for about the same amount of time at Apex despite Smash 4 being 2 stocks with 6 minutes. You may not believe Smash 4 takes too long, but some will disagree.

It was pretty universal in Brawl at least.

I can think of more characters who couldn't auto-cancel their projectiles than those that could.

Well no one likes watching grand finals for any game they don't play. Even SF4 gets the "when's Mahvel" thing (and Marvel gets "when's SF4" You can't please everyone)

Smash is treated much differently than other fighters in the FGC. And "when's Mahvel" and such is mainly a stream monster thing. Marvel vs. Street Fighter beef is nothing compared to FGC vs. Smash beef or even Melee vs. Brawl/Smash beef.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's hardly even beef. "When's Marvel" or "When's SF" is an elaborate in-joke at this point, nobody's ACTUALLY upset about it.

Also Smash 4 takes longer for more reasons than just recovery. Damage buildup is generally slower in Smash 4, kills are sometimes harder to get due to how moves work, and the new ledge mechanics. These are the biggest things that make it take longer despite being a mechanically superior game to Brawl.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

New ledge only makes it take longer because edge hogs don't exist anymore.

In every other aspects it favors more aggressive play and makes the ledge an actual bad place to be and speeds the game up.

Imo, smash 4 is faster and takes less time than Brawl does.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Talking about getting C&D'd operates on the (foolish) presumption that suddenly, everyone who plays PM will suddenly stop playing, out of nowhere.
...
......

 

[Terotrous]

Regardless of how it "should" have been, people did still like some things about the Melee ledges (like just using them to avoid respawn invincible characters or to slow the match down for a moment of recollection)

These are two things I think you absolutely should not be able to do. Ledges shouldn't be a "get out of jail free" card like that.

Smash 4 and Melee ran for about the same amount of time at Apex despite Smash 4 being 2 stocks with 6 minutes. You may not believe Smash 4 takes too long, but some will disagree.

Well it's hard to say how much of that is gametime and how much is just getting matchups set up and what not. I'd like to see the actual match durations if someone feels like researching this (some such research has already been conducted, see here)

Smash is treated much differently than other fighters in the FGC. And "when's Mahvel" and such is mainly a stream monster thing. Marvel vs. Street Fighter beef is nothing compared to FGC vs. Smash beef or even Melee vs. Brawl/Smash beef.

That's just because it's new. Most of what I've seen out of the FGC was people watching Smash and saying "wow, this game is a lot more legitimate than I thought".

 

[zpxociv]

PM will die for sure if the devs don't stop worshiping Fox and making him so damn OP. Melee already isn't a far cry from being "Fox only" and if PM isn't different from this then it will have no reason to exist and be forever in the shadow of melee's popularity. Nerf Fox enough or consider it Melee 2: Electric Boogaloo and expect a mod with no reason to exist to be soon forgotten.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

^

 

[metaXzero]

These are two things I think you absolutely should not be able to do. Ledges shouldn't be a "get out of jail free" card like that.

It's not free though. You give up stage control and your invincibility will be gone really quickly if you're constantly maintaining it the whole way. You don't have to like the mechanic, but plenty see it as fine.

That's just because it's new. Most of what I've seen out of the FGC was people watching Smash and saying "wow, this game is a lot more legitimate than I thought".

Competitive Smash is over a decade old. And the last times I saw comments like that, it was for Melee.

 

[Fortress]

PM will die for sure if the devs don't stop worshiping Fox and making him so damn OP. Melee already isn't a far cry from being "Fox only" and if PM isn't different from this then it will have no reason to exist and be forever in the shadow of melee's popularity. Nerf Fox enough or consider it Melee 2: Electric Boogaloo and expect a mod with no reason to exist to be soon forgotten.

This is the most uneducated perspective I've seen in recent memory.

APEX 2015 was won by Marth.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I hear more complaining about PM Fox than I do about Melee Fox. Ridiculous.

 

[Rhubarbo]

This is the most uneducated perspective I've seen in recent memory.

APEX 2015 was won by Marth.

PP was clutch, but Armada also switched from Peach. Idk, I feel like we're at 20XX - 1 at this point.

 

[zpxociv]

Why is my post being mocked as if it were completely off base? I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say Fox and other fast characters are OP compared to slower ones, especially Bowser. Immaturity just runs rampant alongside ignorance here. Wonderful. You know what? I'm just done. I'm not getting dragged into another flame war with you infantile-minded ***holes. No one was being disrespectful to anyone until YOU showed up and started mocking my post.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Why is my post being mocked as if it were completely off base? I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say Fox and other fast characters are OP compared to slower ones, especially Bowser. Immaturity just runs rampant alongside ignorance here. Wonderful. You know what? I'm just done. I'm not getting dragged into another flame war with you infantile-minded ***holes. No one was being disrespectful to anyone until YOU showed up and started mocking my post.

Don't take offence with the tone you've received, because you sort of deserved it.

"PM will die for sure if the devs don't stop worshiping Fox and making him so damn OP. "

-Here we have a doom and gloom message that's probably too black and white. Suggesting that the PMDT worship Fox also makes your message excessively extreme.

"Nerf Fox enough or consider it Melee 2: Electric Boogaloo"

-Sarcasm and an implicit ultimatum. Don't forget you're talking about the most used and arguably beloved character in Melee.

I only care because I agree with what you have to say. But, if you go about throwing low-blows, you'll just make us against Fox looks pissier than we actually are.

 

[Brim]

New ledge only makes it take longer because edge hogs don't exist anymore.

In every other aspects it favors more aggressive play and makes the ledge an actual bad place to be and speeds the game up.

Imo, smash 4 is faster and takes less time than Brawl does.

Everything takes less time than Brawl.

 

[Fortress]

Why is my post being mocked as if it were completely off base? I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say Fox and other fast characters are OP compared to slower ones, especially Bowser. Immaturity just runs rampant alongside ignorance here. Wonderful. You know what? I'm just done. I'm not getting dragged into another flame war with you infantile-minded ***holes. No one was being disrespectful to anyone until YOU showed up and started mocking my post.

Nobody was mocking you, but, do whatever you want.

Nobody cares :^)

 

[Brim]

Also, just going to say this, totally agree with Rhubarbo. I re-read your posts zpxociv, it more felt like you were lashing out than anything because people didn't necessarily agree with you. Especially saying a few of us here are infantile minded.
Sorry didn't mean to derail...

 

[zpxociv]

I'm sorry, I'm just a little upset, what with PM's community crashing and burning on twitch, banned from Apex and then guess what happens in the comments on smashboards in the thread about it? Hate for PM and its players. How does PM even deserve all of this hate in the first place? What a disgusting community. And just wtf do you mean there was no mockery, Fortress? The first poster below mine got a WARNING for mocking my post and somehow that's not mocking to you? Is mocking even a thing at all to you? Does it even exist in your reality? Thread derailed but what does it matter, it's just a PM thread and PM is dead now but that's great because half the smashboards "community" hates it.

 

[Fortress]

I thought you were done? Or are my eyes that bad?

 

[Brim]

I'm sorry, I'm just a little upset, what with PM's community crashing and burning on twitch, banned from Apex and then guess what happens in the comments on smashboards in the thread about it? Hate for PM and its players. How does PM even deserve all of this hate in the first place? What a disgusting community. And just wtf do you mean there was no mockery, Fortress? The first poster below mine got a WARNING for mocking my post and somehow that's not mocking to you? Is mocking even a thing at all to you? Does it even exist in your reality? Thread derailed but what does it matter, it's just a PM thread and PM is dead now but that's great because half the smashboards "community" hates it.

I believe it was for the reason, you can receive warnings for providing posts that don't pertain to anything relevant in the thread. Or basically troll posts.
--
Also, Project M isn't dead (Not yet at least), but Project M is on quite the decline because one of the biggest YouTube channels that supported it says, "We will not keep putting out videos of Project M" (basically). And because Nintendo has become more involved in the competitive community so people like tournament organizers, like APEX were afraid they might get shut down for hosting a game that is technically a moderation of their own game. Which really is a shame.

 

[Fortress]

Project M isn't dead, just irrelevant right now outside of its own community. Due in part to a sort of 'perfect storm' of factors (Nintendo's involvement in the competitive scene (which they have every right to have), PM 3.5's release being more of a 'low-key' release stacked up against 3.0, and a new, official Smash title, and the recent streaming support developments), Project M interest is going to see a decline for quite a while.

But, that's not a bad thing at all. With Project M on the backburner of the competitive scene, there will be plenty of time for the game to develop on its own, and its own top players to take the spotlight, such that if the game were to ever hit its old stride again, we'd see household names throwing down with a gauntlet of hardened Project M veterans. With Project M interest dwindling/quieter on the national scale, expect to see the kind of behavior from the PMDT that dedicated PM mains have sort of expected; a Project M developed for Project M players, becoming more and more its own game. Nothing's quite outside the realm of possibility at this point, and nothing's set in stone right now, so don't hold any huge expectations for the game and just play it. That's honestly the best thing anybody can do for it right now, and it's more-or-less the right thing to do. Business as usual.

 

[ChiePet]

That's it, I'm just going to say it;
If this game doesn't at the very least throw me Knuckles after waiting/testing him pre-3.0, I'll lose it.
Legal Grey area or not, I don't care for smash 4, and it's taken away streaming, majors, and put it in an even more ambiguous time frame that both increases hype but aggravates me to no end.

Not Sorry.
#Sorry #ILuvYouPMDT

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's it, I'm just going to say it;
If this game doesn't at the very least throw me Knuckles after waiting/testing him pre-3.0, I'll lose it.
Legal Grey area or not, I don't care for smash 4, and it's taken away streaming, majors, and put it in an even more ambiguous time frame that both increases hype but aggravates me to no end.

Not Sorry.
#Sorry #ILuvYouPMDT

Eagerly awaiting Knuckles so I can change that Mario main icon to the real Hero.

I'm dead serious LOL I need to see what he's like.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Well a game only dies when people stop playing it. So as long as the PM peeps keep on playing it (which we will) then there isn't anything to worry about.

What's happening now was to be expected, but nothing that we can't overcome.

 

[Bedoop]

Just reveal a Character and we'll be good.
What say you, Funky Kong? :b

 

[SmashLord0]

Just reveal a Character and we'll be good.
What say you, Funky Kong? :b

True but better yet, REVEAL ****ING 47! Im sure that will change things.

 

[ChiePet]

I'm dead serious LOL I need to see what he's like.

He's good. There was a video uploaded of him a month ago; same exact Knuckles i played pre3.0, If i had to judge it upfront tbh I'm thoroughly impressed how well they did with him, and how well they immortalized the parts of Knuckles from S&K and SA1 that made him, well, him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

He's good. There was a video uploaded of him a month ago; same exact Knuckles i played pre3.0, If i had to judge it upfront tbh I'm thoroughly impressed how well they did with him, and how well they immortalized the parts of Knuckles from S&K and SA1 that made him, well, him.

So, Sonic and Knuckles/S3&K being my FAVORITE 2D Sonic game helps then, huh? I also saw that leaked video of him and I noticed his spring was the yellow Sonic 3 one, and much like Yellow Springs in Sonic games, it gave less distance (the little details go so far)

But yeah I'm maining him once he drops, easily.

 

[ChiePet]

So, Sonic and Knuckles/S3&K being my FAVORITE 2D Sonic game helps then, huh? I also saw that leaked video of him and I noticed his spring was the yellow Sonic 3 one, and much like Yellow Springs in Sonic games, it gave less distance (the little details go so far)

But yeah I'm maining him once he drops, easily.

Yup.
From his slightly slower run speed, shorter jump height, glide/wall climb, Harder hits/higher damage, yet still keeping things like Down B (Spin Dash~) He's been anticipated farrrr tooo long by me at this point.

Ugghhh.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yup.
From his slightly slower run speed, shorter jump height, glide/wall climb, Harder hits/higher damage, yet still keeping things like Down B (Spin Dash~) He's been anticipated farrrr tooo long by me at this point.

Ugghhh.

Fun fact: I already have Unknown from M.E. installed in preparation. It's only a matter of time now.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Are we, uh, allowed to discuss leaks here?

I think the fact that the leaks have gotten so widespread means they might as well just officially reveal them already, not much point in trying to hide what we all know about now.

 

[B.Wong]

I just had a lengthy discussion on this with one of my friends and we have a theory. However, this is what we have come up with.

Project M is dying in the fact that it is getting less coverage over melee. While this may not be great, at least competitive smash is still alive compared to the growing smash 4 fan base. While PM may still have the fan base, less coverage will mean some will stray away from the BETTER, REAL competitive scene.

Also remember that without PM, melee would not have been revived as vigorously as it was. As long as there isn't a new competitive smash, PM will manage to find a way to survive, just like melee.

Here's the action part, Nintendo believes that PM takes away from Nintendo's profits (which is true), however PMDT makes no money for their efforts. This means that Nintendo can't go legal with them, all they can do is find a way to reduce the hype of PM. They have, with VGBC removing the high majority of PM from their streams.

As a result of this, the PM community needs to take action, make PM hype, fight Nintendo a little. Therefore, Pm will begin to take away from NIntendo's profits again. Now, HOW WILL NINTENDO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM? ANSWER: THEY CREATE A GAME IDENTICAL TO PM, WHICH BY EXTRAPPOLATION IS IDENTICAL TO MELEE ONLY WITH ALL THE NEW CHARACTERS AND BRINGING BACK OLD ONES THAT GOT ERASED! PM does indeed die at this time, however, they have gotten what they have wanted: a large cast with a melee engine.

Conspiracy theory confirmed. lol.

 

[Shadic]

Just a friendly reminder that (as obnoxious as this subject already is) that this thread should remain dedicated to it.

This thread is not for discussion of why you hate Fox, lack of satisfaction in a tiny slave-owning cosmonaut, your lust for echidnas, water faucets that continue to drip despite being firmly turned "off," etc.

Continued distractions will irritate me and involve me doing my moderator duties. AKA Infraction-slaps.

That is all.

 

[IronChar]

PM is not dying. it is simply evolving to an underground scene.

PM will always live as long as people continue to play and enjoy it to their hearts customizable content.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Hi I'd just like to give y'all a status report from the Philippines' local scene.

We had a Xmas tourney last December, 3 events were held [S4 Singles doubles and PM: Singles]
Headcount just dropped alot in that we've had 40 something entrants for Sm4sh and we were forced to drop PM singles there altogether. (We only had 9 people sign up for PM).

Spoiler

Our recent debates on the latter is that a strong majority, if ever a PM sees another tourney again here boiled back to 3.02 vs 3.5, many of our members unwilling to accept the changes. I've suggested to them that I'll be willing to just make custom builds to make everyone happy. (eg. 3.5 as Base but keeping 3.02 Mewtwo and Lucas because they were widely complained about here) And another factor sprung up that some members took that and responded with a "If we accept such, we won't keep up with worldwide meta", with me responding "If we don't agree with builds, or even my proposal to unite both builds, the PM scene here will definitely die"

 

[IronChar]

that's just silly. Smash 4 did the same thing with that patch. Lucas and mewtwo were stupid broken AND STILL REALLY good in the new game.


major johning man. what a lame ass community if that's even true at all.

at a bellingham event we had 100+ entrants for melee, 60 for project m and only like 40 for smash 4.

times rub toetotoe with smash 4 taking the spotlight, over time we will see people comeback to pm I feel. those who stick around shall be rewarded