People are worried about Project M dying, what do you think?

[JipC]

It seems lot more TOs have bought into either the idea of becoming REALLY good friends with Nintendo and/or have become increasingly afraid of Nintendo pulling an EVO 2k13 or MLG 2k11 over Project M (even though Nintendo pulled that crap without needing mods as an excuse). I just don't get it.

It doesn't sound like SmashCon will be intentionally keeping an unofficial PM presence out like Apex though.

The TO's and streamers want sponsorship because they directly benefit. The players have gotten jack **** from Nintendo's sponsorship, in fact they're losing things because Nintendo's involvement is hurting PM's scene.

 

[anikom15]

What's the likelihood of the PM team reverse engineering their own mod and remaking it for PC or some other open platform without any Nintendo IPs?

 

[Stryker]

What's the likelihood of the PM team reverse engineering their own mod and remaking it for PC or some other open platform without any Nintendo IPs?

0% sadly

PM not dead. To hell with Smashcon. My local scene just had our largest PM tournament to date with lots of people traveling from other places. We livin'

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

They haven't "purposefully made spacies top tier", they've merely kept spacies faithful because there's no reason to mess with them and piss off spacie mains. They're just not going to drop spacies down to bottom tier, because there's no reason to do that.

The reason spacies are always good is because they're basically finished characters. They have a well-designed and versatile kit that's tried and true, and everyone knows how . Whereas a lot of other characters are still under active development trying to figure out how to best balance them, they're bouncing around because they're not done yet. And the players' metagame itself is still developing as we're learning how to use them, compared to Melee vets who had a decade+ head start. The new characters are all over the place because they're new, but the veterans are known to already be good. And they'll never not be good, because why would they deliberately make a character not good anymore?

Forgive me for digging this up but I would like to challenge and question this.

Are both Fox and Falco, i dunno about Wolf Scythe is the only good Wolf I've played against in tournament, fair in terms of pros, cons and gameplay?

There is far criticism there and while I think PM pushed both of them in the right direction in terms of balance, but I think they still fit into the Irelia problem League of Legends has, too many options with not enough counter play unless something blatantly better shows up or something that just works against them. A lot of PMs issues in the past were from trying to play an arms race with those two.

Do you think this is not the case? This is something people are sick of even in PM, if Melee goes more and more towards spacies and PM does the same, I feel as though this will stagnate and cause people to not enjoy it as much. It's no that I think they are OP per say as much as I think both of them will cause problems in gameplay and balance if kept as is.

 

[Chzrm3]

Whenever I watch a PM tourney it seems like the usual suspects are Diddy and Wario. I dunno if that changed recently, I actually haven't been keeping up with it - I do remember seeing some people play Fox (M2K for one), but almost never Falco.

Maybe I'm just out of the loop?

0% sadly

PM not dead. To hell with Smashcon. My local scene just had our largest PM tournament to date with lots of people traveling from other places. We livin'

Kinda tempted to smuggle some PM into Smashcon tbh. Just find some place where they're playing vanilla brawl and slip an SD card in without anyone noticing.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Forgive me for digging this up but I would like to challenge and question this.

Are both Fox and Falco, i dunno about Wolf Scythe is the only good Wolf I've played against in tournament, fair in terms of pros, cons and gameplay?

There is far criticism there and while I think PM pushed both of them in the right direction in terms of balance, but I think they still fit into the Irelia problem League of Legends has, too many options with not enough counter play unless something blatantly better shows up or something that just works against them. A lot of PMs issues in the past were from trying to play an arms race with those two.

Do you think this is not the case? This is something people are sick of even in PM, if Melee goes more and more towards spacies and PM does the same, I feel as though this will stagnate and cause people to not enjoy it as much. It's no that I think they are OP per say as much as I think both of them will cause problems in gameplay and balance if kept as is.

Yeah, I do think spacies are fine. The "arms race" just comes from pitting finished characters against works-in-progress. It's tricky trying to make sure the new characters are just as good as the old ones without going too far and making them OP. And with 3.5 being the big nerf patch that was more focused on back-to-basics redesigns than balance for the time being, and thus deliberately erred on the side of nerfing too much rather than risking nerfing too little, some characters are lagging a bit behind. But I don't think that's spacies' fault. And they won't make the game stagnant as long as development is still ongoing and potential problems can still be addressed, nerfs that went too far can be toned back a bit now that we know who may have been hit harder than they should've been.

 

[Arcana~]

Nothing really to add just re-stating what's been said; Sm4sh just stuck it's foot out in front of PM's bandwagon and has slowed it down a bit. I'm almost entirely certain that once the new-game-honeymoon with sm4sh has worn off (which will probably happen sooner than many think), and once Nintendo takes it's kill-dar off it, PM will get rolling again.

I AM however very doubtful that PM will ever be updated again, sadly. All the love for 3.5 and how it solidified the metagame in a way that pleases more people than not, along with the PMBR probably not even wanting to work on the mod anymore, I think the way PM is right now is the way it's gonna stay.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I AM however very doubtful that PM will ever be updated again, sadly. All the love for 3.5 and how it solidified the metagame in a way that pleases more people than not, along with the PMBR probably not even wanting to work on the mod anymore, I think the way PM is right now is the way it's gonna stay.

Apart from, the bugfix they are currently in progress making.
and the art stuff that didn't make the 3.5 release.

pretty sure this isnt the last iteration.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Also, we know that there are more characters in the works. They'll probably be in development for quite some time.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah, I do think spacies are fine. The "arms race" just comes from pitting finished characters against works-in-progress. It's tricky trying to make sure the new characters are just as good as the old ones without going too far and making them OP. And with 3.5 being the big nerf patch that was more focused on back-to-basics redesigns than balance for the time being, and thus deliberately erred on the side of nerfing too much rather than risking nerfing too little, some characters are lagging a bit behind. But I don't think that's spacies' fault. And they won't make the game stagnant as long as development is still ongoing and potential problems can still be addressed, nerfs that went too far can be toned back a bit now that we know who may have been hit harder than they should've been.

I don't think the arms race will stop, as long as they stay as they are I think 3.02 situations will continue to repeat like it has. Especially with a lot of people calling Fox and Falco in the top 5 for 3.5 right now. People can get sick of this fast, it's one of my biggest issues with Melee is that I feel like it is a 2 character game in my area.

I'd like to see them just be ok for once rather than must be top 10 like it has been because they are afraid of changing anything with the spacies.

That kind of balance bias needs to change.

Nothing really to add just re-stating what's been said; Sm4sh just stuck it's foot out in front of PM's bandwagon and has slowed it down a bit. I'm almost entirely certain that once the new-game-honeymoon with sm4sh has worn off (which will probably happen sooner than many think), and once Nintendo takes it's kill-dar off it, PM will get rolling again.

I AM however very doubtful that PM will ever be updated again, sadly. All the love for 3.5 and how it solidified the metagame in a way that pleases more people than not, along with the PMBR probably not even wanting to work on the mod anymore, I think the way PM is right now is the way it's gonna stay.

I do not think this will stop any soonier though with Smash 4.

PM having a new release would help get people more into it and t's clear there is more in the works.

 

[MegaMissingno]

So no PM at SKTAR4 either now. After how huge SKTAR3's PM bracket was, I'm shocked.

Sigh.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So no PM at SKTAR4 either now. After how huge SKTAR3's PM bracket was, I'm shocked.

Sigh.

Where was this announced?

 

[MegaMissingno]

http://smashboards.com/threads/aug-...melee-wii-u-tournament-ft-somerset-nj.394310/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://smashboards.com/threads/aug-...melee-wii-u-tournament-ft-somerset-nj.394310/

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2ygvg7/so_there_wont_be_project_m_at_sktar_4/cp9n725

Not confirmed gone yet and he wants to still host it.

 

[metaXzero]

I don't think the arms race will stop, as long as they stay as they are I think 3.02 situations will continue to repeat like it has. Especially with a lot of people calling Fox and Falco in the top 5 for 3.5 right now. People can get sick of this fast, it's one of my biggest issues with Melee is that I feel like it is a 2 character game in my area.

I'd like to see them just be ok for once rather than must be top 10 like it has been because they are afraid of changing anything with the spacies.

That kind of balance bias needs to change.

I don't think characters are going to get 3.5 and 3.0 style changes anymore outside obviously bad/buggy ones. It's just going to be bugfixes and such. And I don't see Olimar and Ice Climbers being buffed to resemble 3.02 Lucas. As for Fox and Falco being considered top , them being top tier here is different from in Melee. They were slightly better and everyone else was massively worse. 3.5 isn't going to resemble Melee's metagame as long as people are interested in learning and mastering the other characters. Don't think we are in need to nerf spacies to Smash 4 levels of irrelevance.

Spoiler

Though I'd be fine with nerfing Fox's N-air. Hate that stupid high priority thing that easily leads to shine before you can shieldgrab /salt

 

[\Apples]

PM won't die because we're not going to let it die, just like we've done with Melee. Washington doesn't need funding, we got the numbers and GC is working out details to rent out a huge venue every month to host Melee, PM, and whatever else (I don't care what else). Where there is local passion, it will find a way to grow, you just have to let it... and sometimes feed it a bit.

 

[Stryker]

I don't think the arms race will stop, as long as they stay as they are I think 3.02 situations will continue to repeat like it has. Especially with a lot of people calling Fox and Falco in the top 5 for 3.5 right now. People can get sick of this fast, it's one of my biggest issues with Melee is that I feel like it is a 2 character game in my area.

I'd like to see them just be ok for once rather than must be top 10 like it has been because they are afraid of changing anything with the spacies.

That kind of balance bias needs to change.

If melee feels like a two character game in your area, it's probably because of two reasons. A) Noone is willing to pick up marth or any other character that's good against spacies, thus playing to the meta, or B) (And this one is more likely) Man, spacies are just fun. Coming from a Marth main.

When it comes to an arms race though, I do think other characters need to be better armed, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any. I would say that Lucario and Snake both have advanced enough and deep enough tech to let them both fight spacies equally and be a goatload of fun to play.
Also, I will point out that Ike whooped all of M2Ks characters including his fox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXux894VOPM

I really feel like it's what @ MegaMissingno said. Some characters are close to completed with their kits, and I do think they can stand up to spacies when played right. C Falcon, Wario, Squirtle, heck even G&W if someone wanted to learn them.

One has to realize that no matter how good a character is, the most they can get with 1 hit is a stock. This means that the bar for any one (well designed) characters kit is
1) Must be able o 0-death a wide majority of cast, even if it is very very very technically difficult
2) Opponent must be able to escape combo's with proper defensive counterplay (SDI, Combo DI ect.)

So long as everyone has the tools to do these two things, I think the game will be in a good spot. On top of this, you can add in
3) Character must have enough technical depth to be engaging and interesting to both play and watch.

And I think lots of characters fit this build, even if no one is playing them to prove it. Squirt has silly disgusting awesome tech that can keep the little bugger on you for days and 3.5 just turned side b into a move will a killing sweetspot. A+
G&W has an awesome Up B OOS option that combos into silly pillaring with key, plus some of the hardest throws to properly DI due to animation. Super fun.
And this goes directly into the other thing that gets repeated lots in regards to PM.
Fox and falco have years of melee tech behind them, and we know how they work and how to manipulate their attacks perfectly from years and years of melee. It only makes sense that people coming from that game are most comfortable on characters that they already play. If PM lucario came out at the same time as Melee did, I'm sure Lucarios tech would also be well advanced past what all the other PM characters are.
I feel like we are headed in a good direction tbh.
(Just fix Zero suits throws plz. )

 

[MegaMissingno]

The conspiracy is real, even Twitch is out to get us now. This is just getting ridiculous.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Dumbest thing ive heard:

"Id like it (PM) if it was made by nintendo"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The conspiracy is real, even Twitch is out to get us now. This is just getting ridiculous.

They aren't allowed to say this?

I'm confused why they can't.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Twitch probably has them under NDA regarding all sorts of contractual details.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Twitch probably has them under NDA regarding all sorts of contractual details.

Do we know of other mod projects under similar stipulations?

 

[Wolf_The_Wolf]

Dumbest thing ive heard:

"Id like it (PM) if it was made by nintendo"

You would not believe how much I hear this in my area. That and what basically works out to,"PM is okay, but Smash 4 is more fun because it is less balanced."

Or,"I do not like it as much because it is not official," or,"Sakurai knows how to make the game better than them (PM)." and,"Project M is too skill based,"

Unfortunately I can only paraphrase the most crazy answers because I deleted the text messages.

When I then at least hold my own at S4, if not beat them solidly, then call them on their broken characters, and their hypocrisy in them then attempting to play S4 competitively, there is generally much sputtering on their part.

Fortunately all but one in my area will play PM, but most prefer S4 for one of the above reasons. However. When I host the event, we play PM.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Right now there is a huge PM tournament being streamed with 100+ entrants and heavy hitters in attendance like M2K, Ally and Anther.

Guess how many viewers it has? 200. I haven't seen numbers this bad since before competitive Smash became mainstream.

It has a lot to do with Twitch refusing to promote PM anymore I believe. As the poster above said it's BS because banning PM doesn't help the Smash community in any way whatsoever, only streamers benefit, Nintendo hasn't done crap for the players.

So yes PM is dying in the sense of viewership. Local scenes are still strong for it but they aren't getting the shine they deserve.

 

[Narpas_sword]

You would not believe how much I hear this in my area. That and what basically works out to,"PM is okay, but Smash 4 is more fun because it is less balanced."

Or,"I do not like it as much because it is not official," or,"Sakurai knows how to make the game better than them (PM)." and,"Project M is too skill based,"

Unfortunately I can only paraphrase the most crazy answers because I deleted the text messages.

When I then at least hold my own at S4, if not beat them solidly, then call them on their broken characters, and their hypocrisy in them then attempting to play S4 competitively, there is generally much sputtering on their part.

Fortunately all but one in my area will play PM, but most prefer S4 for one of the above reasons. However. When I host the event, we play PM.

The quote i said was from a commentator, on stream at a Project M only Tournament. (Project Melbourne)
Like, get off the commentary guy. If that's all you have to say.

 

[Wolf_The_Wolf]

"Like, get off the commentary guy. If that's all you have to say."

I am not sure if that was directed at me, I apologize if I offended. I do not think it was?

As I said however, aside from one, everyone in my local group will play Project M. Sadly life hit me hard some time ago, but I have another event on the horizon. What is however hopeful is that some are annoyed with the way Nintendo is handling things.

 

[Narpas_sword]

it was directed ate the commentator i was listening too.
Most of the match was one guy talking about why x is better in melee and why melee is better.

wasnt the best commentary

 

[Wolf_The_Wolf]

Ah, yes... Thank you for the clarification.

 

[zpxociv]

If project Meme doesn't stop freezing then I'm going to just let it die without giving a remote crap.

 

[Bleck]

the problem with PM is that they can't change the Melee **** 'cause it'll be admitting that Melee's most prominent stuff maybe isn't all that great and they'll lose the frothing scenester Melee fanbase, but they can't leave it in 'cause people are just gonna move on to a game that isn't dominated by fourteen year old gimmicks

I know people are trying to make it seem like PM's current decline is because of tourney streams or some bull**** but no I'm pretty sure it's just that PM's userbase was always split between people who wanted Melee Again and people who wanted a new Smash game - the former group is just gonna go back to Melee if PM tourneys die off and the latter group is gonna move on to Smash 4

if PM wants to survive then the dev team is gonna have to figure out who exactly they're actually trying to cater to and what they can do to keep them hooked

 

[Narpas_sword]

the problem with PM is that they can't change the Melee **** 'cause it'll be admitting that Melee's most prominent stuff maybe isn't all that great and they'll lose the frothing scenester Melee fanbase, but they can't leave it in 'cause people are just gonna move on to a game that isn't dominated by fourteen year old gimmicks

I know people are trying to make it seem like PM's current decline is because of tourney streams or some bull**** but no I'm pretty sure it's just that PM's userbase was always split between people who wanted Melee Again and people who wanted a new Smash game - the former group is just gonna go back to Melee if PM tourneys die off and the latter group is gonna move on to Smash 4

if PM wants to survive then the dev team is gonna have to figure out who exactly they're actually trying to cater to and what they can do to keep them hooked

I'd like to think they're catering to people like me, who:

If Project M Tournament die off, i wont just go back to melee, nor will i go to Smash 4.
I'll make my own Project M tournies.

With Blackjack.
and hookers.

 

[Wolf_The_Wolf]

Nintendo attempting to kill off support for Project M by disallowing established venues from hosting it is *rather serious* Bleck.

I will partly agree with Narpas and host my own. Many things have been and will continue to be changed.

 

[Bleck]

Nintendo attempting to kill off support for Project M by disallowing established venues from hosting it is *rather serious* Bleck.

do we have any proof that this is actually happening yet or is it still just a bunch of hysterical childish hearsay

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

do we have any proof that this is actually happening yet or is it still just a bunch of hysterical childish hearsay

pretty much this, tell me all you want, give me proof Nintendo is doing it outside of a tinfoil hat.

 

[PootisKonga]

I'm not sure what I'm more surprised about: This thread still being around, or my lack of notifications since I've been watching the thread

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

What i suspect is that the masses only drop PM because they have a mass paranoia that daddy Nintendo is watching the smash community and hoping they'll get notice or something. That's just me. Nintendo has got jack **** to do with it.

 

[MegaMissingno]

do we have any proof that this is actually happening yet or is it still just a bunch of hysterical childish hearsay

What other explanation do you have for the fact that Twitch won't let anyone with a sub button stream it? That has to be coming from them.

At this point you'd have to be in deep denial to claim that there's nothing odd going on and the only reason at all that these majors and streamers are dropping it all of a sudden is because "it's too much like Melee" and that there can't possibly be anything else to it.

 

[Bleck]

assuming there has to be a reason is not the same as assuming what that reason is

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What other explanation do you have for the fact that Twitch won't let anyone with a sub button stream it? That has to be coming from them.

At this point you'd have to be in deep denial to claim that there's nothing odd going on and the only reason at all that these majors and streamers are dropping it all of a sudden is because "it's too much like Melee" and that there can't possibly be anything else to it.

This is again, an assumption.

Is there something going on? Yea.

It has to be Nintendo? No.

All we know of that twitch is not allowing a sub button. That's it.

 

[Redact]

This is again, an assumption.

Is there something going on? Yea.

It has to be Nintendo? No.

All we know of that twitch is not allowing a sub button. That's it.

We also know that Nintendo specifically told apex organizers and commentators they can't talk about pm on streams, or show it, or discuss any mods of sorts or allow people to play it there.

In the end, if you think it's not nintendo trying to cause issues then you're just in denial. No one at this stage can directly admit anything under NDA so don't expect someone to come out anytime soon unless they want to be in breach of whatever contracts they have, but the apex information did come out (i got it from some of the apex commentators directly)

If you still want to think that it's not Nintendo, then who is it? and why them?