Peach+ Get Pimpslapped!

[GHNeko]

EDIT: Durp.

 

[Shell]

The way I read crazycracker's post, GHNeko, was that he wasn't complaining, and was suggesting to others not to complain.

It doesn't make sense for him to talk about how good the character is and then complain about a nerf.

 

[GHNeko]

The way I read crazycracker's post, GHNeko, was that he wasn't complaining, and was suggesting to others not to complain.

It doesn't make sense for him to talk about how good the character is and then complain about a nerf.

Mis-read it then. :V

My bad.

 

[Meru.]

No one ever said that. V:

No one ever said what? That it was too strong? Well, I guess that's why would want to tone it down.

But I still disagree with nerfing it. Like I said. it's strong but very situational. However, at the currect metagame, many don't see a Peach Bomber coming, because they're not used to it. When someone knows that a Peach may use the Peach bomber, he'll expect it better. Also, I find it very comparable with Din's Fire. Many thought it was an amazing move and an awesome projectile at the beginning of the game, but later many got used to it. They expected it and knew how to handle it.

 

[CloneHat]

It's molasses slow and has a shorter range than it looks.

Better nerf it.

 

[PaintedGhost]

In my first post when i said advanced i made sure to define it as (/more people with some skill at more characters), no reason to lol at me.

Anyways if you look at that tier list, you'll see peach is a ways away from the lower tier character which would start on lucas, unless you looked at it start at bowser, meaning peach would be one spot away from high.

She's still mid tier. There are 18 characters above her and 18 characters under her.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Whoa, so in vbrawl, peach is like EXACTLY in the middle of the tier list? That's so cool!

 

[PaintedGhost]

Whoa, so in vbrawl, peach is like EXACTLY in the middle of the tier list? That's so cool!

It would be cooler if Peach had 36 characters under her..>_>

 

[BeepBopRobot]

She's still mid tier. There are 18 characters above her and 18 characters under her.

Mhm, but not mid/low, which is what i think you said originally?

But thats besides the point seeing how the physics buffed her in relationship to other characters (similar to fox who was actually lower than peach, and he only received minor buffs for +, even less than peach, yet hes one of the best in the game)

Heres why the physics helped her:

The addition of more shieldstun really helped peach for the following.
It made her small vulnerability to shield grabs basically dissapear.
It also helped peach's strong point of pressuring, now its pretty insane.
In addition, because of her high priority, quick to come out ground and air move(s) she is not really feeling the bad parts of more shieldstun.

The addition of hitstun really helped peach too.
It reinforced her combo game which in vbrawl was actually really legit (when compared to the vast majority of the cast)
Peach is also really hard to combo, so she is not feeling the burn from this that much when compared to others.

New air dodges also help peach.
Peach used to have a crappy airdodge when compared to the rest of the cast.
In Brawl+, everybody's ADs were nerfed (i believe it was down to peach's level), and peach's stayed the same.

Hitlag reduction also helps peach.
Quite simply it makes it harder for characters to SDI out of her dair (and dsmash) which made her combo game a little less effective.
Peach doesn't really suffer from this because of how hard she is to combo in the first place.

With the nerfing of recovery (game is faster paced, people fall faster, no auto sweet spots) peach was also buffed.
It gave peach a pretty good gimping game (that she barely had before)
Peach doesn't feel the effects of this that hard, because her lightness makes her hard to "combo" off the stage, and decent di can make it so you can always use your good horizantal recovery to recover, especially because you can be so evasive with it.

Not to mention that her up-b is near unledgehoggable (the opponent needs to be above 100% to do it, and needs amazing timing (which is hard when its peach you're talking about) There are also few moves that out prioritize it.


I hope I've thoroughly explained and proven that the physics really buffed peach.
This is why peach would definatly be a good character even without the buffs that she got. (I mean you said she'd be low/bottom tier without the buffs she got, im curios as to why.)

Along with what cracker's posted, is why i think she is undeniably in the top 10 currently.

I'd like to ask you if we've convinced you she is in the top 10 yet, or not?

 

[PaintedGhost]

Mhm, but not mid/low, which is what i think you said originally?

But thats besides the point.

Do you have any response to Cracker's reasons for as to why peach is in the top 10?

(And in the case that still dont think shes in top 10, can you gives your reasons for as to why this would be the case?)

I think you misunderstood me. When I said low/mid, i didn't mean low-mid, or mid-low. I meant mid and/or low.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

Bumping because i made a super edit.

 

[PaintedGhost]

I agree that Peach is a really great character but I don't think she's top 10. Physics buffed a lot of characters. Most characters that were better than Peach to begin with, got even better. Even though the difference between tier placements is smaller, there's still a gap. Like I said before, good but not top 10. Now please can we stfu about this and perhaps continue Matchup discussion?

Spoiler

O shi- neko! This was your plan all along!!11 You knew you had trouble with peach so you started this whole war in the peach threads to prevent actual discussion. During this time, when peach's metagame was at a stand-still, you'd get your marthz power level to OVUR 9000!!!



edit: Yo beepboprobot I know you're pretty new to SWF and imma let you finish but I just wanna say saying that shieldstun improved shieldpressure, hitstun improved her combo game, gravity makes it easier to gimp and that hitlag made it harder to SDI is not real information.

 

[crazycrackers]

Um, are you going to try to argue with any actual information or just say other characters are better? Also, the point was that Peach doesn't need buffs, not that she's top ten. Whatever, we might as well get to matchups already.

Shall we start with MK? Marth?

 

[BeepBopRobot]

edit: Yo beepboprobot I know you're pretty new to SWF and imma let you finish but I just wanna say saying that shieldstun improved shieldpressure, hitstun improved her combo game, gravity makes it easier to gimp and that hitlag made it harder to SDI is not real information.

About the newness, im actually not that new, i had an account on here before from 2007 (right when brawl came out) that i almost never used (i only used it so i could see the difference between read threads and unread threads) I then deleted it because i decided to make a new one with the same name that i had on AiB.

Also you need to learn to read. If i just said literally "shieldstun improved shieldpressure, hitstun improved her combo game, gravity makes it easier to gimp and hitlag made it harder to sdi" then you would be right, that wouldn't be real information.

However, if you actually read my posts and responded intelligently, instead of responding with unspecific stuff which doesn't actually contest mine or cracker's points, and doesn't even validate your previous statements(ill talk about this later) you would see that that is not what i said at all...

For your sake ill pretty much restate what i just said, and then spell out all the things that somebody should be able to gather from said facts..

Shieldstun affects her unevenly. It gives her a crazy pressuring game. This implies that she can pressure many other characters meaning the addition of shieldstun would be bad for them when vsing peach. Peach also has the fast/high priority attacks which make her resistant to shield pressuring. Peach moves up on the tier list. Most characters are affected by pressuring near equally and stay in the same place, and some characters suffer from pressuring and can't pressure so they move down.

Hitstun also affects peach unevenly. It reinforces her combo game that was really good in vbrawl, while simultanously not hurting her that much because she is hard to combo. Peach moves up because of this. Most characters suffer and gain from hitstun evenly and will stay in the relatively safe area. Some charaters who dont have any comboes even in + and relied on few, small hits in vbrawl to fight, we're obviously nerfed.

New airdodges dont affect peach, but nerf literally every other character in the game. Nuff said. How do you think this affects peach's placement?

Hitlag affects peach unevenly. SDI'ing while in hitlag could be used to escape one of peach's main moves dair. This obviously helps peach a lot. Peach is combo resistant, so reduced hitlag and sdi time doesn't really hurt her that much. This moves peach up. Most characters are affected by it evenly and stay in the same place.

With the nerfing of recovery peach is also affected unevenly. It allows peach to have a actually really good gimping game. Peach however is ungimpable from the vast majority of the cast though (and no im not arbitrarily saying this, i went into great detail about why this is the case in my other post), and most characters are affected by it evenly. This moves peach up on the tier list..

Oh and last time i forgot to mention ALR. This also affects peach unevenly. It gives peach the ability to make basically all of her air attacks extremely safe. Most other characters with ALR don't become as safe and therefore stay in the same area while peach moves up..

..../rant and proof and evidence over.



Now im waiting for responses to a few of your things.

1) Why do you think peach would be crappy without her buffs, *not talking about physics here*? I believe you said low/bottom? Im especially confused since at most i can see her buffs moving her 5 spaces. You said yourself that with the buffs she was really good. Moving her down 5 spaces max (probably like 2 and 1/2) would not make her low and bottom from really good and "just outside the top 10 range"

2) What are the qualifications for being "really good" or top 10? I'd say its the amount of bad matchups you have. The more bad matchups you have, the less viable your character is in tournaments. Peach has very very few bad matchups and no unwinnable matchups. Id say peach only has more bad matchups then like 8 people in +, putting her in the top 10 list, because of the definition of a tier list.

3) This is sort of a follow up of 2 (and may not apply), but with your qualifications for being top 10, how does peach not meet these qualifications.

 

[Meru.]

So, about the match-ups. What makes Marth a 40-60? I find it more like a 45-55, only a slight advantage.

 

[GHNeko]

Fair + Ftilt + Jab + Up B > Peach

Get at me.

V:

 

[PaintedGhost]

It was blanked out for a reason T_T.

And Neko : vids of a tournament match with that combo or it srsly never happened.

 

[GHNeko]

no no. Not a combo.

Just those 4 moves with smart use > peach.

Fair because its Fair.

Ftilt + Jab for range(ftilt)/speed(jab) and safe approach/defense against Floating/Turnips.

Up B for String breaking and killing. :V

I think my issue with Peach is that I'm too aggressive and I just keep falling into stupid stuff. I notice that when I play Brawl-style, the match drags on, but my stock/percent count when I win are higher. :V

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I don't think it was combo... I think he was saying that all those moves are better than Peach. which is NOT true. Marth's jab sucks >.>


and ftilt to jab would never work on a peach player that isn't drugged.


and neko, shut up, peach can get past ftilt and jab anyways.


Peach is even to Marth or better.


*****ing biased marth main >.>*

 

[GHNeko]

Marth jab doesnt suck. It has its situational uses lol.

Peach can't get pass a spaced ftilt imo.

Unless she goes high, and in that scenario, Ftilt is a bad choice. Ftilt + Jab are good choices when she ground floats, but as soon as she goes above marth, they're bad choices and other moves should be used.

 

[PaintedGhost]

Yeah jabbing out of float is gey. For some reason I tend to lose more against 5ive's aggressive marth. I don't have much time to pull my turnipz, which are really important in this matchup. Turnip gimps are god-like.

 

[crazycrackers]

Peach is even to Marth or better.


*****ing biased marth main >.>*

No offense, but thats kind of hypocritical. You've said some things that carried huge biases towards Peach, and Peach mains are generally notorious for being biased (not to a sonic/ness extent but still).

As for the matchup, its probably 40-60 Marth, but not as bad on certain stages.

By the way painted, against a Marth that plays really aggressive, just play safe (although I guess I would still say that if he didn't play aggressive). Just draw turnips when you know you can.

 

[Meru.]

Don't pull a turnip against an aggressive Marth, expect is he's really far. If a Marth goes aggressive, so should you (but like crazycrackers said, do it safely). Marth is REALLY easy to combo for Peach. So if a Marth goes aggressive and/or comes close, kick his ***.

Don't approach a defensive Marth. Punishing is okay, but don't approach. It's unsafe and not needed. Just throw turnips. BUT don't be too turnip-happy. If he comes to close, you don't need to throw turnips. You should rather keep them and throw it on a good moment. Only pull out a turnip whenever you can or whenever it's needed.

Marth wants to keep you at mid-range. If Peach is too close, she pressure him too much. If she's too far, it'll rain turnips. This is obvious, but you should remember this.

Edgeguarding can give you early kills. Throw turnips and/or edgehog.

His spacing is a b****. Find solution as quickly as possible, e.g. running away and pulling a turnip, punishing with a Dash Attack etc. Don't get desperate.

Basically, both Marth and Peach should switch between aggressive and defensive. And I still don't see why this is a 40-60.

 

[GHNeko]

Because Marth has better tools than Peach on a higher basis than Peach?

 

[Meru.]

He might have better tools, I won't argue that. But a 40-60 seems too much.

 

[GHNeko]

I think it's pretty accurate. Marth has an easier time dealing with Peach than vise versa.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

lol marth ****** peach idea


it's about even.

 

[GHNeko]

If by "about even" you mean 60-40 ja. ur rite

 

[crazycrackers]

If by "about even" you mean 60-40 ja. ur rite

Agreed, calling the matchup "even" is just unsupported.

 

[Meru.]

But can you guys explain why it's a 60-40? I don't really care about the ratio if I don't know why.

 

[GHNeko]

Their combo ability are on similar levels, but Marth has the better juggling game. He can combo into spikes. He can null her projectile and projectile approach. He can live longer in this match up. He's faster and can out range her on numerous occasion. And a up B that can't trade hits..

Those things give him more of an edge than you think. V:

Plus Dtilt @ ledge ***** a peach who cant sweetspot. Counter > Side B. Counter > up B as well. <_<

 

[Meru.]

Their combo ability are on similar levels, but Marth has the better juggling game. He can combo into spikes. He can null her projectile and projectile approach. He can live longer in this match up. He's faster and can out range her on numerous occasion. And a up B that can't trade hits..

Those things give him more of an edge than you think. V:

Plus Dtilt @ ledge ***** a peach who cant sweetspot. Counter > Side B. Counter > up B as well. <_<

Hmm... Don't forget that Peach can combo so she can edgeguards him, and Marth doesn't like getting edgeguarded. But how Marth null her projectile? And how does he live longer, Marth is lighter than Peach? Faster,hmm ... In movement, for sure! Is this the same for their attacks? Peachs attacks are very fast, especially with float cancel (I don't care that Float cancel doesn't exist in Brawl+, I call it float cancel). Marth's Range and spacing are hard, but what about Peach's turnips and her long-ranged attacks (Ftilt, Jab, Fair etc)? UpB... just sucks :l.

The Dtilt thing seems annoying. Guess we need to learn how to sweetspot then. And we can also edgegaurd Marth btw.

Hmm, I might have underestimated this a******. So come on Peaches, we need solutions to our problems! I will not let Marth have a 60-40 again.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I don't even know how you can sweetspot a ledge is even possible anymore.

No matter what I do, I always go past it or not far enough @_@

And no way marth vs peach is 60:40 in marth's favor. That's just character bias.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, in latest build, he's heavier, so his life expectancy has gone up. I find my self consistantly outliving my peach rival in terms of percents because of good DI. It's harder to DI Marth's moves than Peaches imo. And even still, I dont think Marth is heavier than Peach. <_<

Jab / Ftilt / Counter > Turnips all day. Float is effective against an aggressive Marth (something I'm going to stop being against Peach now) but float imo, falls prey to a patient, space-happy Marth.

And I know what Peach can do to Marth, which is why its 60-40 and not 65-35 or 70-30. :V

Also, Tipper Dsmash kills peach at 110-120% now, as tipper dsmash and untipper dsmash have KB buffs.

And tipper fsmash.

And Marth's grabs give better combo potential to Marth than Peach throws do to Peach.

And Marth Fthrow can CG Peach with no/bad DI, and good DI is predictable meaning that Marth can easily take advantage of it.

Nair is good against a peach who is floating to recovery because of the KB on second hit and its range. V:

I don't even know how you can sweetspot a ledge is even possible anymore.

No matter what I do, I always go past it or not far enough @_@

And no way marth vs peach is 60:40 in marth's favor. That's just character bias.

>_________________________>

 

[Mattnumbers]

Neko what is Marth getting nerfed to make up for aforementioned buffs?

 

[GHNeko]

It was part of his recrafting. It's available in 5.0. >_>

So he already got nerfs to compensate. ._.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Oh ok I thought you were talking about in the new build thats coming out.

 

[GHNeko]

No no. I'm talking about 5.0.

Though Marth is getting some changes new build, so idk if the match up will shift again.

I know peach is. Fsmash changes mostly. <_<

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If you're nerfing her forward smash, I'm going to rip your starry :V eyes out and feed them to my clown hair. :D

 

[GHNeko]

Who said we were nerfing it? I just said it got some changes. <_<