Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

[san.]

Yeah, you can eruption all teleporting recoveries. It just depends if they give you an easy timing window. Sheik can disrupt with bouncing fish and aerials. The others have more limited options, though.

I also think that teleporting recoveries may be fully invincible if they are initiated above the ledge. Don't quote me on that, but that's what I heard.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Yeah, I play a Mewtwo alot and his seems really hard to get. I wasn't sure it was possible

 

[Xuan Wu]

How about we discuss the following:

1. Perfect pivoting.

Is this still a thing and worth learning, or is it too impractical that it is better to stick with regular pivots? I haven't heard much from it recently. How much leverage would you say Ike gains from it?

2. N-air and its follow-ups.

Been experimenting with the weak hitbox of N-air lately. It strings nicely into turnaround Jab and turnaround D-tilt at low percent. Like using N-air regularly, however, its risky if improperly spaced.

3. Jab 1 --> D-tilt

Which characters and specific attributes (i.e. weight, fall speed) does this seem most effective against? For me, it seems to work better at rage percent. I use it often but inconsistently as there are several instances when I end up using Jab 2 instead by accident. Is there an easier way to do this?

^-^

 

[Mario766]

Perfect Pivoting should be used along with regular pivots for spacing and mix-up purposes. Perfect Pivot up tilt can catch people and be a kill option.

N-Air is our best combo starter outside of throws. N-Air combos into F-Air on mid-heavy weights for a long amount of time depending on when you hit them, and it can combo into back air with the back hit and can kill confirm. It's unsafe with bad spacing but can lead into a lot of reward as it's a free ~20 percent on hit.

I like jab into down tilt but it's inconsistent, if Ike's IASA frames on jab 1 were better he could combo into down tilt at almost all percents and at low percents jab leads into 30+ damage. It'd be really good for Ike as any mistakes would lead into absurd percent.

 

[the king of murder]

So I fought a Shulk yesterday and I noticed, U-throw becomes very deadly against Shield Shulk since he falls so much faster. We can actually hit him with a F-smash.

At very high percent, Shulk can act on the U-throw since he is launched farther but it is still a deadly 50/50 guess for him.

In other words U-throw completly destroys Shield Shulk.

 

[Mario766]

U throw combos at anything over low percents into a lot of things for Ike. It's very dangerous for Shulk to use as it's a free up tilt into juggle.

 

[the king of murder]

Actually, at very low percent, you always want to use D-throw because it has more hitstun than U-throw as the opponents can airdodge out of U-throw at very low percent. U-throw becomes more usable at mid-high percents. But yeah, against S.Shulk this move is bonkers.

I think A2 said something similar of how U-throws destroy S-Shulk.

 

[Mario766]

I was referring to when Shulk uses shield, not always.

 

[Arrei]

Interesting, I always just went for Aether combos to rack up more damage. Is FSmash capable of killing Shield Shulk at the percent where it works on him, though?

 

[the king of murder]

Shield Shulk dies around 120%?(need some more testing, I am not sure about that) near the edge. Shulk can do something at around that percent and that is Vision and Airdodge, both which can be easily baited.

If Shulk uses Shield at mid percent for some reason, it is better to use something else, like regrabbing, Utilt or anything that can keep him in the air.

 

[1337Kai]

What do you guys think about eruption for edgeguarding? I'm starting to feel like dtilt is the better option in a lot of situations. It has pretty far reach as well and will catch just about anything that doesn't sweetspot. The key here is that eruption sends people up so your opponent is now above you rather than off to the side. With dtilt, people are pushed off the stage again which can sometimes setup a dair spike, a walk off fair, or more dtilts. I guess the armor of eruption makes it better against certain recoveries like shulk perhaps since his upb has crazy range but doesn't sweetspot. What do you guys think about his edge guard options?

Eruption is actually a good edge guarding tool. I use it more that d-tilt and it's helped me a lot in recent tourneys that I go to. Not only does it deal heavy damage, but because of the insane range on it, it's good for limiting get up options for your opponents. If they roll, they get hit. If they jump they get hit, if you can bait an air dodge even better. The super armor (If fully charged) can absorb their get up attack. Up-smash is also good for reading get up options. You just have to be sure about the read or else you'll get punished. Bair is also good for stage spikes. Just simply b-reverse his u-special to get back on the stage. Nair is also good for reads because of it's long lasting hit box and the ability to hit behind you. You can also simply fair or bair offstage and it will most likely kill even at low percentages. A neat trick that utilizes Aether canceling, is 1st allowing the opponent to ledge trump you (go on the edge before they reach it), then angle your self accordingly and you're good to go for an Aether cancel. Ike all around is suprisingly good at edge guarding. All these tools are good for catching your opponent guessing. I remember beating a Luigi simply because I'm like the only Ike player in my area, so he didn't understand the match-up, which gave me a HUGE advantage. (Of course he was pretty salty about it)

 

[Xuan Wu]

Here are some other topics that may be of our interest:

4. Applications of aerial Quick Draw on-stage.

What are some creative ways we could use Quick Draw on-stage, especially with its auto-cancel properties? Is it possible for us to retain our momentum after the dash so that we could use a RAR B-air out of it?

5. D-tilt --> B-air.

This was touched upon briefly a while back. It seems useful when the opponent is at low percent, where D-tilt to F-air is not guaranteed. I saw someone recently that used U-air to D-tilt to B-air against a Sheik and it registered as a true combo of 3 hits. I decided to try this out on Falcon and it also worked; at around 10%, N-air to D-tilt to B-air true combos as well.

6. Viable edge-guarding options besides Eruption.

Other than Eruption, which is an amazing edge-guarding tool against certain recoveries, what are some other ways to do this? Ledge trumping B-airs work amazingly well, but it looks like you have to be quick. Could we possibly make use of U-air's active frames to take advantage of the 1 frame window of ledge snap vulnerability, similarly to Eruption?

7. OoS options and punishing ledge get-ups.

We know that there are five different ways to get up from ledges: simply getting up, jumping, rolling, ledge attack, and ledge-hopped aerials. What do you find to be the most versatile option to respond to these. I personally like U-smash and spaced F-air.

^-^

 

[Arrei]

A neat trick that utilizes Aether canceling, is 1st allowing the opponent to ledge trump you (go on the edge before they reach it), then angle your self accordingly and you're good to go for an Aether cancel. Ike all around is suprisingly good at edge guarding.

Wait, hold on, what's an Aether cancel? This is the first I've heard of it.

We know that there are five different ways to get up from ledges: simply getting up, jumping, rolling, ledge attack, and ledge-hopped aerials. What do you find to be the most versatile option to respond to these. I personally like U-smash and spaced F-air.

Get-up attack is naturally the easiest - Ike has enough time to use Ftilt or Utilt if he blocks them, but smart players won't use get-up unless you can trick them. Sometimes, if I release Eruption a smidgen too early, I still have time to raise my shield before they can strike.

Against normal get-ups, rolls, and jumps, I prefer to stand a fair distance from the edge, usually just out of get-up attack range, and then prepare to jump backward as I watch for a move from my opponent. If they jump, I try to intercept with an Fair. If they roll as I jump, I go for an FF Fair. These can kill at high percent if Fair isn't too stale. If they get up normally, I might charge them with a grab or a jab if I find they habitually shield or try to attack on get-up. If they're fond of ledge-hop aerials I usually just block and grab or jab, since for the most part only characters with quick, low lag aerials try to go for it.

 

[Maik93]

Here are some other topics that may be of our interest:

4. Applications of aerial Quick Draw on-stage.

What are some creative ways we could use Quick Draw on-stage, especially with its auto-cancel properties? Is it possible for us to retain our momentum after the dash so that we could use a RAR B-air out of it?

^-^

I sometimes use it for tech-chasing purposes

 

[GhostUrsa]

Here are some other topics that may be of our interest:

4. Applications of aerial Quick Draw on-stage.

What are some creative ways we could use Quick Draw on-stage, especially with its auto-cancel properties? Is it possible for us to retain our momentum after the dash so that we could use a RAR B-air out of it?

I've used QD as an escape option when I'm stuck in the air without a jump or air dodge. It's quick enough to throw off most opponents, has active hitboxes that make it hard to intercept and if done low enough to get the auto-cancel will allow Ike to punish his own pursuers with his entire toolkit. I've seen quite a few pros use it in a similar way I do, though with a lot more precision, and think it's something we can all benefit from.

6. Viable edge-guarding options besides Eruption.

Other than Eruption, which is an amazing edge-guarding tool against certain recoveries, what are some other ways to do this? Ledge trumping B-airs work amazingly well, but it looks like you have to be quick. Could we possibly make use of U-air's active frames to take advantage of the 1 frame window of ledge snap vulnerability, similarly to Eruption?

I've seen d-tilt be used for horizontal recoveries that attempt to snap the ledge, mostly as a mix-up option. D-tilt's downward reach isn't good enough for low recoveries (unless they rise above the ledge, but that can be dangerous to counter with a d-tilt since they'll have hitboxes of their own), but against horizontal recoveries it can popup your opponent for a good Fsmash or other kill options.

I've also seen Ike's go for the off-stage spike by walking off the edge and using B-air on their opponent. Used sparingly, and you find your opponent too surprised to tech the hit and by the time they regain control they'll be too deep to recover. Walk off F-air can be useful against low recoveries that have quite a bit of distance to cover, though they can be easily telegraphed so you'll want to use this one sparingly as well.

N-air and U-air are rarely useful against edge-guarding due to their knockback favoring a high arc. Unless their % is high enough where any hit will KO, they'll get popped up for an easier recovery while you'll have to fight to snap yours. This reversal of fortunes is not something you'll want against a fast opponent. (Who are most of Ike's harder MUs.)

 

[the king of murder]

Walk off Fair as edgeguarding is a lot more useful than Eruption against tether recoveries as well because it hits them before they can snap the ledge whereas Eruption is practically useless against tether.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Walk off Fair as edgeguarding is a lot more useful than Eruption against tether recoveries as well because it hits them before they can snap the ledge whereas Eruption is practically useless against tether.

I've had better luck against tethers with walk-off b-air personally. Most of the tether grabs I've had used against me are to close to the edge for F-air to connect before they are out of range. If you have a good angle, then d-air can work too since they'll rise into your swing.

And if I remember right, Eruption can still be used against tethers as they rise but the timing is harder to anticipate since it's not the norm we use Eruption against. (So human error is there.)

 

[AN(M)ist]

So I did a running upsmash, and while I was charging, the cpu Marth tried to grab me while standing next to me and whiffed. I wanna know does crouching/chargnig upsmash put you under marth like grab range ?

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

NVM~! Should've checked the Patch thread!

 

[Routa]

I usually edge guard with Nair. If foe recovers high, I will either full hop Nair or double jump Nair. If they recover low, I tend to walk of the ledge and use Nair (dat area cover). But most of the time I will use U-Smash. If person is get up attack "spammer", I will run near the ledge and use counter. Sometimes I tend to go for on stage Up-B, but that is just me.

As for QD (or CC) using it as you are landing after being launched to the sky is good option. For example you start landing on the left side of the stage and your foe notices it and starts moving towards you, but instead of landing there you QD (or CC) to the other way. Other nice thing to try is to use aerial QD (or CC) into F-tilt or U-tilt.

What moves combo/string into Up-B? I have always liked Ike's Up-B and I would like to know what other moves I can combo into it other than U-throw and D-throw.

 

[GhostUrsa]

So I did a running upsmash, and while I was charging, the cpu Marth tried to grab me while standing next to me and whiffed. I wanna know does crouching/chargnig upsmash put you under marth like grab range ?

Ike's got an extremely low stance when crouching, and can duck under quite a lot of stuff. I've never tried it against Marth's grab, but it wouldn't surprise me if he could. I've ducked under projectiles, grabs from DeDeDe and Cap a couple of times and even some f-tilts! Usmash being able to not be grabbed doesn't sound right, as I've been grabbed out of it before with plenty of cast members and Marth isn't exactly a giant. Though I hear Marth's grab range leave a bit to be desired, so it could be more a spacing issue.

 

[san.]

I'm going to need to overhaul this thread and some other info because of the new patch. Unfortunately, it may take a while lol.

What moves combo/string into Up-B? I have always liked Ike's Up-B and I would like to know what other moves I can combo into it other than U-throw and D-throw.

Nair can reliably combo into upB now at lower mid %. Throws aren't too great since they aren't in a good position a lot of the time, especially for small characters.

 

[Arrei]

I usually edge guard with Nair. If foe recovers high, I will either full hop Nair or double jump Nair. If they recover low, I tend to walk of the ledge and use Nair (dat area cover). But most of the time I will use U-Smash. If person is get up attack "spammer", I will run near the ledge and use counter. Sometimes I tend to go for on stage Up-B, but that is just me.

If you can predict a get-up attack, it's better to shield and Utilt/Ftilt, I think. Stronger and can kill, and quick enough to pull out before the opponent can move again.

 

[XDaDePsak]

When you're in trianing mode and it has that COMBO counter number, what exactly is that counting?

"True combos?"

 

[Arrei]

Yeah, hitting the opponent while they're still in hitstun.

 

[Mario766]

True combos to a certain extent. There are some combos that work even without the combo meter going up.

 

[XDaDePsak]

So what is the technical definition of a true combo anyway? Because I know I could just keep racking up that number on a dummy, but a real person could easily escape such a 'true combo'

 

[Mario766]

Attacks done while the opponent is in hit stun. DI helps opponents get out of range of further attacks however so you can't continue the combo.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Do you guys still play Ike defensive even though he has alot of buffs to help his offensive game?

 

[Ekans647]

Do you guys still play Ike defensive even though he has alot of buffs to help his offensive game?

I still try to, but it is more tempting to be more aggressive.

 

[Mario766]

I play read based aggressive.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Yeah, the reason I ask is being its so tempting to play more aggressive now. Not sure it's the best thing

 

[Mario766]

It's not for high level play. You have to play a bait and punish game.

 

[Arrei]

I basically try to switch between aggressive and defensive to keep my opponent guessing. Keeping a good flow between the two styles has always been key for Ike, after all.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Does Ike has ledge trump stuff? Most of it doesn't seem like he doesn't have anything useful. It would really help the ledge game if he had options.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Does Ike has ledge trump stuff? Most of it doesn't seem like he doesn't have anything useful. It would really help the ledge game if he had options.

He sure does. Ryuga is amazing at it. He secures a KO with ledge trump B-air about five minutes in and also uses it in later matches.

^-^

 

[Arrei]

Hey, has anyone else been noticing Aether sometimes flat-out refusing to grab onto the ledge despite still being unused? It happened only on Omega Norfair so far that I'd seen, but it just happened to me on Omega Wuhu, bringing an unsatisfying end to a good match. What's the deal with that?

 

[san.]

Hey, has anyone else been noticing Aether sometimes flat-out refusing to grab onto the ledge despite still being unused? It happened only on Omega Norfair so far that I'd seen, but it just happened to me on Omega Wuhu, bringing an unsatisfying end to a good match. What's the deal with that?

Were you holding down at all?

 

[Arrei]

No, but looking over the replay, I suspect I was simply screwed over by the small sloped incline under the ledge, since Aether loses some altitude when it leaps into a slanted stage. It just so happened I was placed JUST under the height I needed to grab onto the ledge, and oop down I go.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

Which stage?