Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

san.

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Looking for ways to format better. Want to get information out first.

[collapse= Patch changes]

Patch v1.0.4:
Confirmed

  • Bair 13%->14%, kills 10+% earlier
  • Fair swing speed increased and finishes more quickly
  • Short hop fair now autocancels
  • Dtilt 7->8%, much less endlag, and launches vertically. Can combo into aerials.
  • Dtilt range reduced by 5%
  • Ftilt endlag slightly decreased, less prone to heavy punishments
  • The full jab string now combos with a swifter jab3
  • Counter slide removed
  • Fair hitbox size increase and hitbox shifted slightly lower vertically
  • Beginning autocancel of fair changed from 5 to 2 frames
  • Dtilt ever so slightly shorter range
  • Range increased on dair with some shifts
  • Dsmash more horizontal knockback
  • Random specials tweaks, notably aether Z offsets
  • Everything else is unchanged or tweaked so slightly that we cannot tell the difference
Unconfirmed
  • Possible ending lag decrease on down smash
  • Possible ending lag decrease on dash attack
[/collapse]

[collapse= General Buffs and Nerfs from Brawl]

Buffs:
  • Combo ability on aerials improved, especially nair
  • Aerials are faster
  • Aerials cancel a good proportion of projectiles
  • Aerials autocancel more quickly
  • Fair, Uair, Bair, and Dair landing lag decreased by 1-3 frames
  • Nair has a better hitbox behind him
  • Combo ability on throws improved, especially dthrow
  • Damage on throws improved
  • Dash grab is quicker
  • Ftilt and Dtilt are faster
  • Utilt damage and sweetspot buffed
  • Dtilt changed into an incredibly quick poke that can begin combo strings
  • Tech/ground punishes improved
  • Ground/Aerial speed improved
  • Double jump height improved
  • Quick Draw keeps your momentum in the air
  • Quick Draw has quicker IASA frames after swinging
  • You can perform any action after quick draw if the slash animation is performed
  • Counter begins faster and lasts longer
  • Ike is 3 units heavier
  • More damage on dash attack with a slightly better hitbox
  • All of Ike's stronger attacks deal good shield damage and pushes the shield a fair distance
  • Smash attacks are faster
  • Aether combos more easily
  • Aether backwards movement has improved
  • Pivot grab buffed
  • Get-up attack nearly breaks shields
  • Dash attack has an additional hitbox for anti-air at the move's end
Buffs greatly helps him follow up and even perform combos surprisingly. His specials are much more useful this time around. Edgeguarding and recovery are also overall greatly improved.
Nerfs:
  • Aerials have more ending lag despite better autocancel ranges. You need to land after every fully hopped aerial
  • Eruption lost super armor up to 3/4 charge
  • Aether cannot grab the ledge when facing backwards
  • Aether deals less total damage
  • Fair has less reach, especially diagonally downards
  • Nair landing lag increased by 4 frames
  • Lingering hitboxes removed from dair
  • Lingering hitboxes reduced from utilt
  • Sliding shield stops momentum when grabbing
  • Back throw -> Dash attack no longer guaranteed
  • Less damage on aerials outside of dair and bair
  • Less damage on jab
  • Jab cancelling is more difficult
  • Fsmash is weaker at low rage. It takes 120+% damage to get a powerful fsmash back
  • Default grab is worse
  • Counter cannot be B-reversed
  • Quick draw has worse IASA frames in its normal cooldown
  • Dash attack may have slightly less reach
  • Edge slipping a shielded opponent is removed. May work for very powerful attacks if they release shield immediately
  • Ge-tup attack is quite laggy
If you cannot predict your opponent, you will have some trouble purely reacting to some of the faster characters. Ike needs to set things up in advance.

As of 1.04 patch, Ike can use his fair to hit those diagonally below him more easily, despite the range nerf. Fair and bair are now much more viable for kills, along with usmash. Better tilts and jabs gives him the ground pressure he needed and allows him to string powerful hits with good timing and movement.
[/collapse]

[collapse=General Physics/Mechanics overview]

Ike still has a great dash -> shield timing period and slide while in shield. He can shield almost right out of a dash if you continue to hold forward. Jab, Dtilt, aerials, and aether are surprisingly good out of shield with this approach. Grab is tougher this time around since his momentum stops if it's the default grab.

Shielding in general is a little different this time around from Brawl. You're required to stay in your shield a few frames longer before releasing, however, shield dropping seems faster this time around. This means that it's safer to turtle up in your shield since you can drop it and retaliate with jab, dtilt, or any other grounded attack quickly. I recommend utilizing both grounded and aerial options out of shield, especially since attacks beat out dash grabs 100% of the time now.

Ike's improved double jump helps him immensely. He can pressure opponents in the air much more efficiently. He can also ledge drop aerials like bair and return without much trouble. You can use more aerials offstage and return safely.

Ike can short hop + air dodge without lag upon landing. Air dodge ends more quickly and seems to be safer while rising. You can easily do a full hop + air dodge at any point during the rise, and have more than enough time to throw anything out afterwards. Ike can also rising full hop air dodge to the side platforms on Battlefield easily.
[/collapse]

[collapse= Moveset overview]

Jab:

Jab 1: 3%
Jab 2: 3%
Jab 3: 5%

Ike's basic jab returns with slightly less damage. Jab1 is the initial punch, jab2 is his kick, and jab3 is the finisher. When it works, it's great.

When should you use jab?

Jab, most notably jab2, is great at interrupting grab and short aerial approaches while not leaving yourself too open to attack. If you have no idea what to do in a neutral position, jab, retreating bair, and pivot grab are all great defensive tools.

When does jab3 work?

Unfortunately, in this game, there is a tendency to pop out for light, floaty characters and get shielded by light, fastfalling characters. Fortunately, this problem can be remedied through the rage mechanic. As Ike's percentage increases, so does the knockback on his attacks.

By the time Ike reaches 40%, jab should be reliable against most characters. Once he reaches 100%, it's practically guaranteed against the entire cast and followups are possible. It's important to know that if you only hit with jab2, it's likely that jab3 will not work against heavy/fastfall characters even at high percents.

Overall, use jab when your percentage is >30-40 and >80 against characters like Greninja and Sheik.
What tricks are available with jab?

Combat walking is still in. If you hold A, Ike continually repeats his jab. If you tap then hold A, Ike performs jab 1->2->then goes back to 1 again. This can be used when hitting opponent. Often times, the second hit of jab misses, and holding A resets his jab back to 1 again. Hitting with 1->2(miss)->1->2->3 is very common.

Any followups after jab?

Indeed. Some good followups for jab are dtilt, utilt, and downward angled ftilt. The first is quick and deals good damage while the latter two can pressure/poke shields if it comes out. If they are close, grab may work if you are at high % after jab1.

Due to the mechanics of the game, players have to deal with lag from an air dodge. Their only way to escape jab1 is to air dodge, aerial against your attacks, or pull away and attempt to shield/dodge upon landing. Often times, people escaping from jab receive this lag penalty, making it possible to get utilt and ftilt off easily.

Dash attack:
10% sweetspot, 8% sourspot (up close), 5% sourspot against opponents in the air

Similar to Brawl, but it deals 3% more damage now. That means that it will beat out attacks more easily than it did before. It's still unsafe, so it's easiest to use as a followup or an edgeguard. You can easily hit opponents who don't tech with this.

Utilt:
14% sweetspot, 10% sourspot. It sweetspots anywhere at ground level, and sourspots near the top.

One of Ike's most buffed moves. It will sweetspot if the opponent is anywhere near you. Feels a bit like Brawl DDD's utilt in that regard, but with some disjoint from the sword. Very easy to hit with. Kills training mode Mario at 111%, 112% if the opponent was behind Ike.

Dtilt:
8%, Very fast (about as fast as jab) with low endlag.

Forward tilt:
14%: You can still angle it and you slide if you ftilt out of a pivot. Kills Mario at the edge ~94%

Up Smash:
17-23%: kills mario at 97% uncharged and 58% fully charged. Knockback is vertical closest to him on the ground and directly above him in the air.

Down Smash:
first hit 14-19%, 2nd hit 17-23%- first hit eats through projectiles and shieldstabs/pushes well. 2nd hit is as strong as upsmash. Use sparingly, since it's decent against shields when fresh.

Forward Smash:
22-30%- Kills mario at 28% fully charged at the edge of the stage, 55% uncharged

Eruption:
10-35% -lost super armor. Partially charges up to 25% damage. Knockback is upwards and at 25% kills mario at 46%. The last 20% of the charge ALL deal 35% and the same knockback. If you fully charge it, you are dealt 10% damage but knockback/damage doesn't increase.
Aether:
20%: Super armor is retained once the initial hitbox comes out.

Hold forward/backward to slightly move aether in the air and at startup. Reverse aether is unable to grab the ledge, but you can move backwards more during it. There is knockback while the sword is moving in the air, but once Ike grabs the sword, the opponent is stuck. You can move fowards/backwards at this time and the opponent will be dragged with you.

Quick Draw:
6-13%. QD slides a bit after it slashes.

Momentum is still carried after freefall mode begins. QD autocancels at full hop height.
QD can also easily be performed out of a pivot now.

Counter:
Counter returns, but it is quite decent this time around. The range is good, usable even against projectiles at short-medium distance. It also lasts quite a while. As with all counters, though, use sparingly. I definitely recommend implementing this move in your gameplay since attacks are emphasized over air dodges in this game.

Counter is weak at hitting those above and below you, however, but it's nice to be invincible against the attack.

Nair:
9% Our best aerial by far, buffed from Brawl. Great combo potential and easy to hit with. Does push shields when fresh but not by much.

Uair:
11%: Kills jumping mario at 123%. Similar frame data to brawl, the hitbox starts behind him pretty quickly.

Dair:
15%: Spikes at the end of the blade. Powerful sweetspot that sends foes horizonatally upwards. Kills Mario at the edge at 97%. No more lingering hitbox. The non-spiking hitbox is good since it can kill onstage now, and you can tech spikes on the ground.

Fair:
12%: The farthest part of this hitbox is at Ike's head. It's a perfect C shape centered at Ike's head. The move starts earlier with a good hitbox above you and sweeps down. To hit players below you, you have to line Ike's head horizontally with the enemy. Kills mario at the edge at 105%

Bair:
14%: Same as Brawl. You can short hop and act immediately upon landing. You cannot double jump after a full hop bair, however. Kills Mario at the edge at 88%

All aerials eat through projectiles now.

Uthrow: 3% first hit, 4% second hit: Less hitstun than dthrow, but you can combo others at mid-high percents
Dthrow: 3% first hit, 4% second hit: Very good combo potential up to high percents
Fthrow: 3% first hit, 4% second hit: Offers pretty nice followups up to high percents depending on character weight
Bthrow: 3% first hit, 4% second hit: Even better with followups than fthrow in some cases, but it can send opponents pretty far away

Grab: Same as Brawl, decent against opponents in the air, not so much against short characters
Pivot Grab: Still great against opponents landing from the air
Dash grab: A little better than Brawl's He slides forward a bit more now.
[/collapse]

[collapse= Advanced Techniques / Mechanics]
Sliding Eruption: Eruption slides from a run.

B- reverse: After eruption and quick draw, hold the opposite way you're facing to make your momentum go the other way and switch directions. I can't get counter to B-reverse in this game.

Pivoting: You can turnaround when running and attack with these moves: Specials, Up smash (jump cancelled), ftilt, fsmash, and jump->aerial or what have you.
Out of Shield options: Grab, roll, Jump+special, jump+Usmash, jump+aerial, shield drop->fast moves

Power Shield options: If you powershield by timing it correctly, you can act as soon as possible, allowing for heavier punishes.

Vector Influence: Your knockback is influenced by the direction you're holding when hit.

Rage mechanics: You deal more knockback (and potentially hitstun?) when you are at high percents. Noticeable > 100. Very important for fixed/low scaling knockback attacks such as jabs, too.

Crouch Cancelling: You receive less knockback when you get hit out of a crouch.

Air dodge: Ike can short hop + air dodge and not receive any landing lag. In all other cases, cancel your air dodge landing lag with nair or uair.

Dash attack cancelled grab: I'm not sure, but Ike seems to have an alright one. Dash attack with A then immediately press the grab button right afterwards. The slide is ever so slightly greater.

Almost every Brawl AT that has not been listed is likely to be present in Smash 4.
[/collapse]

[collapse= Combos/Followups (VI/Rage dependent)]
Video:


*If you have a choice of fair or uair in a combo, I recommend fair.
All of these are done in training mode. In an actual match, you have the 105% fresh multiplier and staling to deal with.
Low Percent:

Dtilt->Nair

Nair->Grab->Dthrow->Aether: 34%
Nair->Grab->Uthrow->Aether: 34% (not sure, may only work with certain characters and VI dependent on the throw)
Nair->Combat Walk (hold A, Jab1->2(miss)->1->2->3): 23%
Nair->Dtilt->Fair/Nair
Nair->tilts, aerials, etc. Nair -> fair is very effective

Grab->Dthrow/Uthrow->Aether (VI dependent for uthrow, fair/uair are much better)
Grab->Dthrow->Fair(top hitbox), Uair, nair

~20-30%

Nair->Ftilt angled upwards 23%
Dtilt->Fair 20%
Short hop fair->Dtilt->Fair
Dthrow->Fair/Uair with a quick double jump ~20%
Quickdraw can be held to cover techs and rolls


Mid Percent:

Dthrow->Fair/Uair with a quick double jump, may miss with good VI/high rage ~20%
Uthrow->Fair/Nair/Uair with a quick double jump. Best at percents where dthrow throws too high ~20%
Nair -> Bair, needs a back hit and must be quick, 22%
Nair -> Aether, ~28%

Dair grounded spike hitbox non-tech -> ???. It seems like you can even get upsmash out of this, but I can't really tell

High Percent:
Dair spike -> ??? still works at high percent
Grab-> Uthrow -> Uair/Fair

The throw is VI dependent. If you get there quick enough, uair covers most of their options and lasts long enough for a full air dodge.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Best competitive videos]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebkGDy4w6q0 - Ike vs Ness: Submitted by @A2ZOMG
-Shows good use of spacing nair and dtilt
-Good aerial followups
-Nice use of eruption edgeguard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJv_9hWwCJY - Gregi (Ike) vs Kirby/Greninja/Duck Hunt: Submitted by @A2ZOMG
-Emphasizes the importance of spacing nair and how it leads to easy followups and combos
-Provides a good gameplan against speedy and campy characters.
[/collapse]
 
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gsninja

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NAir combos are beast. Good job san, thanks for compiling everything so far.
 

san.

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Some of the mid% ones are VI/weight dependent and I think there's also less hitstun when staling. The list will be modified once I try it out in actual Vs. mode.
 

Hoser

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I just gotta say this real quick: D-tilt ledge guarding is epic against a lot of the cast. If I can find a way to upload videos from the 3ds (doubtful) then I have plenty of examples to show.
 
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Yoh

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When you jump in with up air at 0% against more heavy characters you can do upAir-->Jab1->Grab-> dThrow-> fair which deals 33%
Against light weights you can to something like up air --> Jab1-->upTilt (depends kinda on VI here, I´m not sure), Grab after the Jab1 also works sometimes but my opponents could escape more frequently there.
 
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TX7Killian

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can someone test if nair juggling is possible against chars like idk fox and if ike gets a good finisher out of it
would do that myself, but unfortunately do not own a 3ds or smash4
 

san.

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Man, paralyzing counter is so good. Outside of training mode, the stun lasts a long time, enough for upsmash.

Take the combo stuff with a grain of salt since a lot of it requires landing at the same time you hit with the nair. The most efficient one I use is nair->utilt at low percents and nair->fair/uair at mid+percents.

Grab followups don't seem too reliable if they VI a certain way, but you can always get *some* percent off.
 
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mimicmatter

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Man, paralyzing counter is so good. Outside of training mode, the stun lasts a long time, enough for upsmash.

Take the combo stuff with a grain of salt since a lot of it requires landing at the same time you hit with the nair. The most efficient one I use is nair->utilt at low percents and nair->fair/uair at mid+percents.

Grab followups don't seem too reliable if they VI a certain way, but you can always get *some* percent off.
I had the feeling that paralyze counter was button dependant, meaning the other get out of it faster by pression button, like the grab. That means that lvl 9 CPU get out of it almost instantly, which is useless, but in the actual metagame, it might be good. Even really good gamer can press as fast as lvl 9 CPU.
 

-RedX-

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I thought the stun was percentage based and not possible for the opponent to shorten stun time?
 

san.

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I think the 1.05x multiplier when fresh really helps. At ~80% (when Usmash can kill most with a little charge) they were stunned for a while. It's not like this in training mode.
 

mimicmatter

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I think the 1.05x multiplier when fresh really helps. At ~80% (when Usmash can kill most with a little charge) they were stunned for a while. It's not like this in training mode.
So Paralyze Counter - Utilt would be a viable killing move. The sweetspot of Utilt is at the start so the enemy would need to be on the ground. And since Utilt is somewhat fast, that could work. Bad that we can't used Custom moves on Glory mode.

Second Note : If Ike had the Dtilt of Shulk, that would be insane !!! Not only is it fast, but it has no ending lag at all, it is surely one of the best move for Shulk !
 
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san.

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So Paralyze Counter - Utilt would be a viable killing move. The sweetspot of Utilt is at the start so the enemy would need to be on the ground. And since Utilt is somewhat fast, that could work. Bad that we can't used Custom moves on Glory mode.

Second Note : If Ike had the Dtilt of Shulk, that would be insane !!! Not only is it fast, but it has no ending lag at all, it is surely one of the best move for Shulk !
Utilt is pretty much instant, even with negligible stun. I was able to easily get Usmash on computers, but I don't know how a human will respond.

Unlike the other counters where you try to counter the powerful hits, this counter is best used against the weak and predictable attacks.
 
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-RedX-

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Assuming the white flashing of Ike's body when doing counter indicates counter frames, seems like all 3 of Ike's counters begin counter frames at the same frame. Kinda hate much startup they have. :/
 

san.

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I think they're worth the risk now that they can actually kill and last a while outside of counter 2.

I also learned why our jab sucks this time around: It seems that the rage mechanic messes everything up. It's *NOT safe to jab unless you've built up some damage %. 40% = good, and 100% = you have some pretty decent knockback/stun on your jab.

I'm also trying to get the hang of fair. I have one advice that I think might help us: When we short hop fair, let's try to avoid fastfalling, and only at the very very end when we do. I think we'll have an easier time, since fair is actually surprisingly safe when spaced on shield.

Edit: Now that I think of it, does anyone think the rage effect has anything to do with counter 2's stun?
 
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Yoh

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^Ah didn´t think about that with the jabs, that explains it.
And yes also noticed that with fair, you have to use it different than in brawl, otherwise the hitbox won´t be out if you fastfall too early.

Isn´t Counter faster then in Brawl? I manage to use it on reaction, which was kinda not possible in Brawl compared to Marth.
 

san.

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I am comfortable with counter in this game, unlike Brawl.
 

-RedX-

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Dunno but I went into training with Marth and Lil Mac and their counter frames kick in a lot faster when I slow'd it.

It's not safe to finish jabs on Greninja and Sheik at low rage from my experience. They can sometimes auto powershield the 3rd hit by holding shield when hit by jabs, quite annoying. Jab->Dtilt might be acceptable in this situation.

Other than that, I like how Ike feels overall. I have yet to gotten gimped and recovery feels safe.
 

san.

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Yeah, at least we know that jab isn't bad all the time. Jab has fixed knockback and rage probably acts as a modifier (and a penalty at low %s I'm guessing?).

I realized I was using Nair way too much when the lag has been increased. I think learning to mix between fresh aerials and ground moves can really put some pressure against defensive playstyles.

Landing lag (Brawl->Smash 4)

Nair: 12->15
Fair: 22->19
Bair: 22->19
Uair: 19->18
Dair: 28->26

Air dodge: 22

Going to try to figure out how to consistently perform sliding counter tomorrow. I think it has potential if it can be performed with a specific sequence.
 
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-RedX-

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That 3 frame increase completely went undetected to me. Lol

So is rage present in training mode? I think it might be okay to finish jabs on Sheik fron any percents but Greninja powershields jab3 all the time while Sheik does not. The way I tested this was on a lvl 9 CPU and just set them to Attack, then jab them. I changed the % for both Ike and Greninja to 0-70% then at 999%, he still was able to powershield. :(
 
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san.

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I don't think it works on training mode.

Edit:

Vs greninja

0-60%: Jab3 is always blocked
61 to ~100%: Jab3 hits sometimes, steadily increasing as the percent increases
By the time I reached 119%, all jabs were reliable upon hit.

http://smashboards.com/threads/gren...s-tips-tricks-and-advanced-techniques.370197/

This thread inspired me to go more into depth in each of Ike's attacks. I am not capable of such walls of text at once, so I'll probably do a move here and there every so often.

Edit # 2:
Found out how to do a sliding counter. From a run, you must counter as soon as possible, possibly frame 1. If you counter while in the skid animation, you'll only slide a tiny bit, but if you time it correctly, you'll slide.

Input: Try to press B and push down on the circle pad in one very quick motion. You may need to move towards B sooner than you start moving down on the circle pad. You need to go from a run to a down B instantly. It's pretty difficult, but it seems like something that can be mastered.
 
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Xuan Wu

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I know it is still too early for character match-ups to be easily determined but from what is seen so far, how well does SSB4 Ike fare against the veterans that are currently below him in the SSBB tiers, specifically Mario, Link, and Bowser, considering their noticeable buffs? Are his match-ups that were once deemed unfavorable in SSBB expected to remain the same, or changed for the better?

^-^
 

mimicmatter

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I'm honestly very visual on this, I think I would need a video of someone playing very cool with Ike. I would be able to get the grap of it.
 

-RedX-

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How far exactly does sliding counter go? Don't know if I'm doing it or not.
 
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san.

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How far exactly does sliding counter go? Don't know if I'm doing it or not.
You go a little faster than dash speed for the duration of the counter. A dash + sliding counter can reach ~33% of battlefield, 20% for a dash+normal counter.
 

danyo

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I couldn't get sliding counter to work even once. Would be really nice against annoying characters like Little Mac.
 

Oblivion129

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I couldn't get sliding counter to work even once. Would be really nice against annoying characters like Little Mac.
Well-spaced Side-B keeps Little Mac in check. They can't hold shield forever, and they like running away, so this helps you reach them. You can also hit Mac's B but only when he just started charging. If you wait too much his B will go through your side-B.

Once you're close to him, Jab or throw him off stage.
If he tries to recover horizontally, you can punish his double jump with Fair, and Mac's side-b with Fair or Counter.
If he tries to recover from below, Counter his up-B.

If Mac has his K.O. meter filled, you can't counter the K.O. punch. Counter will just block it.
 

mimicmatter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
46
I found out that Down Smash out of shield is a really good option. Uncharged, it start very fast as long as the enemy is in front you you not behind. Down tilt is very usefull, is very fast, but still has this ending lag that can be punishable. On some heavier character, like Bowser, i was able to do a lot of Bair combo from on side of the stage to another. So far the only move I'm not able to deal with is Dair. It's so easy to fastfall instead of pulling it of without the c-stick, I will have to wait the new3DS and the wiiU version to use it.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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Will do that now.

It took me an hour to upload all of his moves. Going to update the thread with pictures and data, then go in depth on more moves over the next few days.
 
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jamlosingthegame

Smash Lord
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The Path of Radiance begins now. Once we get the Ike metagame rolling and start rising (hopefully), our Radiant Dawn shall begin... Yeah that was pretty lame.

I think fsmash does a lot more shield damage than it did before. Kinda looked like P:M shield damage. Even though hitting a shield with it might not happen often, I think that's still something to look at. I will await the day there is an Ike combo video and fsmash > shield break > fsmash makes it.

I do agree with Ike's aerial game being a bit better. Him being a bit more floaty and his 2nd jump higher is definitely a god(dess) send compare to Brawl. I can finally throw my body out there and still live.

BTW, what does everyone think of Ike vs. projectiles? With the inclusion of landing lag out of an airdodge, I think we got kinda cheated with our approach options. QD2 definitely works wonders if it clanks with projectile.

And we have a dsmash now? Cool.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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I'll try to stop being lazy and get to updating this Soon().
 

-RedX-

Smash Lord
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Sep 9, 2009
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Bronx, NY
Didn't Ike's dash grab got buffed? At least I would think so because I've been using it so damn often since dash shield grab is kinda iffy and dash grab seems to work a lot more often.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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Dash grab is better than the previous dash grab, but is IMO worse than the sliding shield grab from Brawl. I will update once I get home.

I don't spend much time playing people vs training mode and I have no good way to upload 3ds matches.
 
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Mario766

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
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766
The D-Air spike w/o tech lets you get in a quick Up Smash, but timing is really strict and I don't see it being of much value in a regular match *I only tried it in training.*

Also for the Up throw into aerial combo at high percents, I couldn't get it on heavies so I don't think that'll work unless they VI down or something.
 

Mario766

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Might wanna look at Dash Cancelled grab that was just shown yesterday. It might be a good standing grab that has the range like our pivot grab we already have but you can do it without moving.
 

gsninja

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Just want to reiterate for the millionth time that DTilt and NAir are the ****ing fuuuuuuuutuuuuuuuure.
 
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