Official Patch 3.1.0 Discussion Thread

[link2702]

The ganon buff seemed so...pointless? Were people actually escaping dsmash that easily? I mean I’m thankful for any buffs he receives, but this one just feels odd...

At least if I’m reading it right, they made the first hit connect better to the second one? I honestly never had any issues with them not connecting...

 

[Mario766]

Should change the hurtbox change for Pichu from on the ears to hurtboxes around the entire character model, as Meshima puts in the tweet about hurtbox size models here.

https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1134314279589388288

 

[VenomSnake]

This patch had a focus on fixing multi-hits, and yet they don't fix Sonic's uair never consistently linking. Interesting.
Speaking of , this patch had absolutely nothing for him, although Pichu getting nerfed and bigger hitboxes does indirectly buff him in that the matchup is now much more bearable. When will they finally fix some of his kit (which does not work very consistently)? Who knows. But this patch was otherwise very well done.

 

[shrooby]

More Brawler info:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So would it be safe to assume that this is what caused fair to be able to autocancel from a shorthop, and not that the autocancel window was actually changed?

Also, Isabelle's Fishing Rod was reverted to pre-3.0.0. Smash-throw reel is again active 2-11 (instead of 9-11) and tilt-throw reel is again active 2-11 (instead of 7-11). The hook no longer guarantees 2-frames when hung over the ledge.

Thanks for the info.
With regards to 2-framing, do you mean that the bit in the notes about it not being able to grab opponents when it's moving slowly is accurate?

 

[Blue Banana]

hey, I did some testing regarding the hitbox duration for Olimar's Forward Smash, since the patch notes said it only "reduced active frames of sweetspot"

Early/sweetspot hitbox: 11-14 → 11-12 (all colors)
Late hitbox 1: 15-20 → 13-19 (non-purple), 14-19 → 13-18 (purple)
Late hitbox 2: 21-29 → 20-29 (non-purple), 20-24 → 19-20 (purple)

EDIT: Also wanted to point out that the changes to the active duration has made purple Fsmash cover much less distance than before.

 

[Asancu]

No changes for Sonic, eh?

See you guys next patch.

Yeah, sure.......... next patch......

 

[LGameTales]

Thanks for the info.
With regards to 2-framing, do you mean that the bit in the notes about it not being able to grab opponents when it's moving slowly is accurate?

Yes. When hung over the ledge in 3.0, the hook used to catch anything that touched it. It doesn't anymore, presumably because they've returned some condition that it can only grab when moving quickly enough (like before 3.0).

For reference, here is the comparison between 2.0 and 3.0, made during the 3.0 discovery: https://twitter.com/kyle_roath/status/1118825273422532608

Edit:

I realize there's a typo in the Smashboards patch notes:

• Opponents will not get caught when the hook is now moving quickly

That should be *not.

 

[Garolymar]

The Oli nerf wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Well that up special nerf is pretty horrible but his attacks still feel smooth.

 

[xzx]

This was the "jabs connect better" patch and they somehow forgot Pac-Man's jab 2... =^( (It sometimes whiffs. All it needs is a bigger hitbox.) Good to see Pac-Man's up-smash linking better, since it was so annoying when it whiffed. Now, for the next balance patch I hope they will fix Pac-Man's dair, since it won't connect from a fullhop, just from a shorthop. Other than that, good patch!

 

[Courageous Baka]

More Brawler info:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Can't believe they're forgetting to put all this stuff in the patch notes.

 

[Arrei]

The ganon buff seemed so...pointless? Were people actually escaping dsmash that easily? I mean I’m thankful for any buffs he receives, but this one just feels odd...

At least if I’m reading it right, they made the first hit connect better to the second one? I honestly never had any issues with them not connecting...

It was fairly reliable, linking into the second hit even when striking an opponent at the very edge of the hitbox, but I have had it fail on me once or twice. Most likely it only occurred at some kind of janky angle, like if you caught an airborne opponent's toes with the edge of the attack or something like that, but it does seem surprising that they caught and addressed that, if that's the case.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Am i right when i assume the grabrange buff on Pika is probably just like marcina grabrange buff to make it not fail randomly on some chars?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Am i right when i assume the grabrange buff on Pika is probably just like marcina grabrange buff to make it not fail randomly on some chars?

Maybe, but I'm not really mad at it. Pikachu had some issues throwing some characters (especially on block) and if this helps I'm for it.

The ZSS side-b buff is nice, it has randomly pushed people away from the final hit since Smash 4.

Still no doc changes.

 

[CHOMPY]

It's kinda interesting that received less cooldown on his aerial Electroshock Arm, yet they didn't list receiving the buff... Now I'm curious if anyone has tested it out to see if Pit got the same buff

 

[Lacrimosa]

"
Captain Falcon - Forward Air Attack -Increased the high-damage range.
"
Ok.
That's cool for him.
But why didn't they adjust the sweetbox on Zelda's fair/bair then? Hers deals less knockback. Not sure about the damage, though. Cmon...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

"
Captain Falcon - Forward Air Attack -Increased the high-damage range.
"
Ok.
That's cool for him.
But why didn't they adjust the sweetbox on Zelda's fair/bair then? Hers deals less knockback. Not sure about the damage, though. Cmon...

I think it's about design goals. Zelda's kicks have always been about precision, moreso than pretty much any other sweetspot-focused move, so I guess they thought making the sweetspot more lenient would go counter to that.

 

[MarioMeteor]

https://twitter.com/KokoPiichu/status/1134268440523476994

Spoiler: Details

Pichu Self Damage in 3.0.1 -> 3.1.0 (Not counting .05%)
-FTilt - 0.8 -> 1.2

-FSmash - 1.8 -> 2.4

-DSmash - 1.0 -> 1.5

-FAir - 1.2 -> 1.8

-BAir - 1.2 -> 1.8

-DAir - 1.2 -> 1.8

-FThrow - 0.6 -> 0.9

-TJolt - 0.5 -> 0.8

-Skull Bash - 1.8 -> 2.1

-Agility - 0.7 -> 1.0

-Thunder - 3.6 -> 4.2%

can now Short Hop Back-Air Pichu now...

- is officially even now.

Oh, thank you Lord Sakurai. The lack of direct Doc buffs annoyed me, but I will gladly accept an indirect one.

 

[TM 023]

So would it be safe to assume that this is what caused fair to be able to autocancel from a shorthop, and not that the autocancel window was actually changed?

Yeah, the fallspeed change is what makes shac fair possible now.

 

[Loochietoochie]

Disappointed robin didn’t get any arc fire buffs or buffs in general

 

[Got4n]

Thank you for your help and clarifications as always, everyone!



As in it's about one second faster, I assume?
If you or anyone else has this value in exact frames, that would be appreciated~

Edit: It's been clarified to me.

There's a mistake in the patch notes, Luma HP hasn't been changed from 50 to 40, but 60 to 48, it was 50 in Smash 4 but they buffed it to 60 in Ultimate and then they set it back to 48 rn, I've found this by using Fox lasers and at the 2.4% laser range it takes 20 lasers to kill the Luma (without stale moves)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Okay, same as last time, here are some numbers for pre-patch. And I'll get to work on the post-patch numbers.

Spoiler: Patch 3.0 values

Fox
Jab 2 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 9 frames of hitstun at close hitbox, 7 frames on far hitbox. The issue is that if Fox gets the far hitbox of jab 2 and Mario is holding shield, he'll start blocking the rapid jab no matter what.

Ness
Jab 2 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 12 frames of hitstun at close hitbox, 8 on far hitbox.

Captain Falcon

• F-air electric hitbox can only occur on frame 14, the first active frame.
• Side B armor when reaching the target: activates on frame 1 when the punch begins. The armor is damage based rather than knockback based. Successfully armoring attacks that deal 8.0 base damage or less.
• Down B active hits frames 15-35 on the ground and 16-? in the air. It's definitely not as long as 33 like in Smash 4. Maybe lasts to 30 based on what I can observe but it's iffy.

Jigglypuff
Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 10 frames of hitstun at close hitbox, 8 on far hitbox.

Peach

• Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 12 frames of hitstun at close hitbox, 8 on farthest hitbox
• Side B endlag after hit is 18 frames
• Down B vegetable pull is 36 frames

Dark Pit
Side B endlag on-hit is 55 (compared to Pits 49) in the air. An obscure difference between the two I assume they're trying to address.

Snake

• Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 12 frames of hitstun at close hitbox, 10 on far hitbox
• Jab 2 is the same^

Charizard

• Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 11 frames of hitstun at close hitbox, 10 on far hitbox
• Jab 2 is the same^

Diddy Kong

• Jab 2 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 8 frames of histun at close hitbox, and 8 on far hitbox
• U-air total frames is 36, landing lag is 13
• D-air startup is 17, total frames is 48
• Neutral B melee hitbox always deals 2.0 damage. The projectile is 3.3-15.0 depending on level of charge. The misfire is 23.0
  • It takes 121 frames to reach maximum charge. If held longer, Diddy begins to misfire (the hitbox for which is on frame 123)
• Up B falls so fast that if you slip under the top battlefield and begin charges, he lands on the ground just before taking off.

Olimar

• F-Smash early hitbox is frames 11-14
  • Total frames is 39
• U-Smash total frames is 36

Lucario

• Jab 1 total frames is 31
• Jab 2 total frames is 34
• Jab 3 total frames is 38
• Neutral B release from a charging state is 48 total frames. Firing a full charged shot outside of a charging state is 56
• Lucario can be ran through when performing Side B, resulting in a whiff for the grab hitbox. This is not typical of any moves I've seen, so hopefully it's corrected.

ROB
Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 12 frames of hitstun on any hitbox

Toon Link
Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 10 frames of hitstun on close hitbox, 8 for far hitbox.

Wolf

• Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 10 frames of hitstun on close hitbox, 8 for far hitbox.
• Jab 2 is the same^
• Neutral B is 49 total frames
• Down B hitbox startup is 7
  • Wolf is invulnerable on frame 6-9
  • Begins actually reflecting on frame 10

Wii Fit Trainer
Jab 1 Hitstun against Mario at 0%: 12 frames of hitstun on close hitbox, 10 for far hitbox

Rosalina&Luma

• Luma takes ~540 frames (9 seconds) to respawn after death
• Dash Attack Luma total frames is 48 or 8 frames longer than Rosalina's attack.
• F-air total frames is 59 and can grab ledges beginning on frame 84 of the animation
• Down B total frames for luma is 42, or 3 frames longer than Rosalina's attack
• Grab startup is 7 and total frames is 39

Little Mac

• Jab 1 total frames is 21
  • Hitstun against Mario at 0%: 10 frames of hitstun on close hitbox, 8 on far hitbox
• Jab 2 total frames is 21
• Usmash super armor is on frame 8-11
• Neutral B Total frames for releasing the punch is 49
• KO Punch total frames on the ground is 96
• Down B total frames is 62

Mii Brawler
Jab 2 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 10 frames of hitstun on any hitbox

Bowser Jr

• Utilt total frames is 32
• N-air startup is 7, total frames is 43
• Neutral B in the air has 6 more startup than the ground version but is otherwise identical. In other words it doesn't have the startup buff from Smash 4's version of the move, so hopefully this is corrected.
• Side B is a hitbox starting on frame 20
• Up B hammer attack hits only on frame 8 behind him and 13 in front of him

Ryu

• Light D-tilt deals 12 hitlag and delivers 9 hitstun at 0% (tested over an edge so Mario doesn't land) on close hitbox and 8 on far hitbox
• U-Air hits on frame 6 and 10 only
• Hadoken damage is 6.0, 6.5, or 7.0 depending on how long the button is pressed. True hadoken is 7.5, 8.1, and 8.7
• Shakunetsu damage is 1.1 on the multihit and 5.0 on the final hit. Holding the button down does not change this.

Ken

• Inazuma kick deals 6.0 damage on both hits
• Oosoto Mawashi Geri deals 10.0 damage and another 10.0 damage when the button is held
• Light D-tilt deals 12 hitlag and delivers 9 hitstun at 0% (tested over an edge so Mario doesn't land) on close hitbox and 8 on far hitbox

Bayonetta

• Jab 1 active hit frames are 9-11
• Dsmash active hit frames are 20-21 and 25-27
• Side B has 20 landing lag. Downward input has 40 landing lag
• Up B has 18 landing lag
• When fresh, Down B counters on frame 8-17 and has the reduced bat within counter on frame 18-29

Inkling
Jab 2 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 12 frames of hitstun on close hitbox, 10 on far hitbox

King K Rool
Uair can grab ledges on frame 102 of the animation

Incineroar

• Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 13 frames of hitstun on close hitbox, 10 on far hitbox
• Jab 2 hitstun against Mario at 0%: 13 on any hitbox

Edit: added more specific notes for Falcon's side b armor.

It's kinda interesting that received less cooldown on his aerial Electroshock Arm, yet they didn't list receiving the buff... Now I'm curious if anyone has tested it out to see if Pit got the same buff

For some reason, Dark Pit has always had 6 more endlag than Pit after getting an aerial hit with the move. Which was an obscure discrepancy between the two this whole time. I don't have post-patch at the moment to confirm, but I imagine that's not an intentional difference, so they're adjusting it so the two characters are even in this regard.

 

[shrooby]

There's a mistake in the patch notes, Luma HP hasn't been changed from 50 to 40, but 60 to 48, it was 50 in Smash 4 but they buffed it to 60 in Ultimate and then they set it back to 48 rn, I've found this by using Fox lasers and at the 2.4% laser range it takes 20 lasers to kill the Luma (without stale moves)

That is with the 1v1 multiplier enabled, since Fox's lasers can't do 2.4% at any range otherwise. When calculating stuff like how much a move takes out of Luma's HP, the game uses base damage. Luma's HP doesn't technically change with the multiplier.

Luma could take 50% before being KOd, and this was changed to 40%, in terms of base damage.

https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1134325695385989125

However, the math still works out regardless of how you apply the multiplier. Though it is not technically how it works under the hood, you can say Luma had 1.2*50=60 HP, and now has 1.2*40=48 HP, with the 1v1 multiplier applied.
Like last time, though, I'll be adding percent values with the multiplier applied next to the base values once we have more of the damage changes~

 

[Lacrimosa]

Disappointed robin didn’t get any arc fire buffs or buffs in general

Look at it that way: Be happy Robin doesn't get nerfed.
I always take a deep breather when I see Zelda untouched because of all the complaints against her Phantom and Nayru on a rather casual level of play. And we know that Smash first and foremost is a party game.
But I don't really think Robin is a problem in casual play. She'll most likely get buffed and not nerfed in the next batch or nothing happens.

 

[Coolboy]

ugh..i get so annoyed with Daisy/Peach getting nerfs each update.. leave them alone for once damn it! >.>

 

[Kiligar]

ugh..i get so annoyed with Daisy/Peach getting nerfs each update.. leave them alone for once damn it! >.>

When your main is a polarizing top tier, their fate is set in stone. You’re next, Snake.

 

[Lacrimosa]

When your main is a polarizing top tier, their fate is set in stone. You’re next, Snake.

Nerf Shulk when :3?
But I don't think Snake will get nerfed anytime soon. For now, it looks like the developers think that players still need to adjust to his item game. I could be wrong but those grenades are really obnoxious.
I rather see Inkling nerfed.

 

[FeelingDrowzy]

I'm glad that Falcon did get a buff on his forward air, It felt pretty off for me sometimes. Diddy is another character that I don't play often, but is fun to play with sometimes despite many flaws like the recovery, I might start playing these two often Hopefully Shiek get's a power buff, not a huge one by any standards cause I'll hope for the best. but at least some small changes.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

For everyone saying about certain characters that should have gotten a buff, there's supposed to be another patch for the next character at E3 so they might put in those buffs in then or it's just the character

 

[DCavalier]

Nerf Shulk when :3?
But I don't think Snake will get nerfed anytime soon. For now, it looks like the developers think that players still need to adjust to his item game. I could be wrong but those grenades are really obnoxious.
I rather see Inkling nerfed.

I mean Peach/Daisy options are kinda ridiculous.
Float cancel Bair anyone ?
That thing pack a serious punch basically an spammable killmove whenever your opponent is at kill percents, can be deal with but you gotta recognize it is too good of an option.

 

[S_B]

So this is basically "better attack linking, the patch"...?

Too bad about KKR being monstrously overpowered now, though. Now that he'll grab the ledge sooner after an Uair, there's nothing to stop him from taking every major from now until the end of time.

Sorry, other 70+ characters, you had a good run while it lasted...

Seriously though, these changes are just baffling. Are they balancing around online mode? I'm pretty sure KKRs get bodied there, too...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If I don't mention it, that means I didn't find any changes with it. Any damage values I give are from Training Mode with the 1v1 multiplier off.

Spoiler: Patch 3.1 changes

Fox
Jab 2 far hitbox deals 8 hitstun on Mario at 0% (from 7), fixing an issue where a far jab 2 could not combo into rapid jab if the victim holds shield.

Captain Falcon

• U-Tilt startup now 14 (from 17). Total frames now 36 (from 39).
• Side B startup now 5 (from 6) upon reaching a target on the ground. Proximity detector still begins on frame 10.
  • Side B now armors moves dealing 10.0 damage or less (from 8.0)

Peach/Daisy

• Side B on-hit endlag now 24 (from 18)
• Down B total frames now 39 (from 36).

Pichu
F-Smash total frames now 53 (from 49)

Dark Pit
Side B on-hit endlag in the air now 49 (from 55). It now matches Pit's endlag.

Snake
Jabs 1 now delivers 12 frames of hitstun on Mario (from 10) on its farthest hitbox.

Charizard
Jab 1 now delivers 12 frames of hitstun on Mario (from 10) on its farthest hitbox.

Diddy Kong

• U-air total frames now 35 (from 36). Landing lag now 9 (from 13)
• D-air startup now 15 (from 17). Total frames now 46 (from 48)
• Neutral B projectile damage range now 4.3-13.8 (from 3.3-15.0)
  • Neutral B melee hitbox now 3.0 (from 2.0)
  • Now takes 94 frames to reach max charge (from 121). Releasing any later than this results in misfire.
  • Misfire now has 97 startup (from 123).

Olimar

• F-Smash total frames now 42 (from 39)
  • Early hitbox now on frames 11-12 (from 11-14)
• U-Smash total frames now 39 (from 36)

Lucario

• Jab 1 total frames now 26 (from 31)
• Jab 2 total frames now 26 (from 34)
• Jab 3 total frames now 35 (from 38)
• Neutral B is 43 total frames (from 48) when firing from a charging state. A full charge shot from outside the charging state is 51 total frames (from 56)
• Side B no longer allows opponents to run through Lucario's body during the startup.

ROB
Jab 1 hitstun against Mario at 0% now 21 frames (from 12) on the farthest hitbox.

Wolf

• Neutral B total frames now 52 (from 49)
• Down B startup now 6 (from 7)
  • Wolf is now invulnerable on frames 5-8 (from 6-9)
  • Now reflects on frame 9 onward (from 10 onward)

Rosalina&Luma

• Luma respawn timer now ~420 frames (from ~540). A two second reduction
• Luma Dash attack total frames now 40 to match Rosalina's (was 48)
• F-air total frames now 54 (from 59)
  • Can grab ledges on frame 79 (from 84)
• Luma Down B total frames now 39 to match Rosalina's (was 42)
• Standing Grab startup now 6 (from 7)
• Dash Grab startup now 9 (from 10)
• Pivot Grab startup now 10 (from 11)

Little Mac

• Jab 1 total frames now 16 (from 21)
  • Hitstun against Mario at 0% now 10 (from 8)
• Jab 2 total frames now 16 (from 21)
• Usmash super armor now frames 8-13 (from 8-11)
• Neutral B releasing the punch is now 44 frames (from 49)
• KO Punch total frames on the ground now 76 frames (from 96)
• Down B total frames now 56 (from 62)

Bowser Jr

• U-Tilt total frames now 30 (from 32)
• Neutral B startup now 37-97 and total frames now 72-132 to match the ground version (was 43-103 startup and 78-138 total frames)
• Side B minimum and maximum speed increased when started on the ground. And since damage is based on current speed, damage range now 5.2 - 8.8 (from 4.0 - 7.3)
• Up B Hammer now hits on frame 8-9 (from 8) behind him and 13-14 (from 13) in front of him

Ryu

• Light Dtilt on Mario at 0% delivers 10 hitstun on close hitbox (was 9) and 9 hitstun on far hitbox (was 8)
• U-Air now hits on frame 6-7 (was 6) and on frame 9-11 was (10)
• Hadoken now deals 7.0, 7.5, or 8.0 damage depending on how long button is pressed (was 6.0, 6.5, and 7.0)
  • True Hadoken now deals 8.7, 9.3, and 10.0 depending on how long button is pressed (was 7.5, 8.1, and 8.7)
  • Shakunetsu Hadoken now deals 7.3 damage on its final hit (from 5.0) increasing the total damage by 2.3

Ken

• Light Dtilt on Mario at 0% delivers 10 hitstun on close hitbox (was 9) and 9 hitstun on far hitbox (was 8)
• Inazuma Kick now deals 10.0 damage on its second hit (from 6.0). Total damage of attack increased by 4.0
• Oosoto Mawashi Geri now deals 12.0 damage on first hit (from 10.0) and 12.0 damage on the second hit (was 10,0). Total damage of attack increased by 4.0

Bayonetta

• Jab 1 active frames now 9-12 (From 9-11)
• Side B has 18 landing lag (from 20)
• Dsmash Weave hitbox now hits on frames 25-28 (from 25-27)
• Down B Counter window now 8-23 (from 8-17).
  • Reduced Bat Within Counter window now 24-35 (from 18-29)

King K Rool
U-air can grab ledges on frame 96 (from 102)

Incineroar
Jab 2 on Mario at 0% now delivers 15 frames of hitstun (from 13) on close hitbox.

Confirmed errors in official patch notes:

• Bayonetta's Up B landing lag is unchanged
• Captain Falcon's active hit frames on Down B are for sure unchanged on the ground. Probably in the air too, it's a difficult attack to test in the air. Couldn't find any difference with the move.

Also shrooby the values for Pichu's recoil damage are correct, but for 1v1 multiplier. I don't know if you knew the multiplier actually affects it. If you want the values without the multiplier I do have them.

The jab adjustments are mostly not noteworthy. Except for Fox. In pre-patch, if you hit somebody with the furthest part of his jab 2, the rapid jab could fail to true combo since they can pull up shield just in time. ROB is also weird since they nearly doubled the hitstun on his farthest hit, resulting in a scenario where, if he's frame perfect, Jab to grab is a true combo against any character who lacks a frame 2 or faster attack to beat it. Jab to Dtilt is also a true combo now, but again, you need to be frame perfect. This isn't revolutionary for ROB, since your spacing would have to be pixel perfect against an opponent who isn't just standing around, but it's definitely a comical overtune of an attack.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Bayonetta's Up B landing lag is unchanged

About Bayonetta's Up-B, I don't think this is an error. I think it's relative to the recovery frames when doing several Up-B and Side-B. In that case, 2 Up-B and 2 Side-B have the landing lag drastically decreased, from 50 to... 39 or 40, not really sure, I'm not sure one how to count correctly the FAF.

 

[Kiligar]

Inkling weight nerf. The hurtbox and weight don’t add up. Smaller than Falco, yet weighs nearly as much as Chrom, with Falco a featherweight and Inkling a middleweight. The character is offensively capable enough that it balanced out. Inkling should be changed to Y. Link’s weight. Wolf next nerf should be to weight, he’s the counterpart to Fox yet weighs 15 cubits more, featherweight v middleweight. Set him at that weight as well. These are high hopes though, regardless, we’ll have to see what happens for the next patch.

What a blessing that Pichu and Olimar were nerfed. If Ultimate was a 6/10 in terms of balance before, now it’s a 6.5/10. Great job balancing team!

 

[Thinkaman]

Seriously though, these changes are just baffling. Are they balancing around online mode?

Yes, what is this bizarre universe this patch was made in, where Olimar/Pichu/Wolf/Peach/Daisy/Lucina were good, and Falcon/Diddy/Bayo/Rosa/Ryu/Ken/Lucario/Mac/Bowser Jr. were bad?

 

[RedWire77]

From what I can tell, the Luigi patch doesn't change all invincibility frames, but just patches when Luigi could do down-special at the edge of a platform, falling into the air right after the first frame and becoming invincible for the entire duration of the cyclone. So he should still be invincible the same amount of frames normally, just not invincible the entire time when performing super cyclone (see https://youtu.be/ipGqDoaYbh8; see also https://youtu.be/K47kd5Q75T8 where Elegant takes advantage of super cyclone several times, one example being at 2:30. This is what should be patched out now).

 

[MarioMeteor]

Yes, what is this bizarre universe this patch was made in, where Olimar/Pichu/Wolf/Peach/Daisy/Lucina were good, and Falcon/Diddy/Bayo/Rosa/Ryu/Ken/Lucario/Mac/Bowser Jr. were bad?

I think calling Lucario bad is a stretch, especially compared to the other characters you listed. Are we really going to act like Lucario was comparable to the likes of Jr and Mac?

 

[Thinkaman]

I think calling Lucario bad is a stretch, especially compared to the other characters you listed. Are we really going to act like Lucario was comparable to the likes of Jr and Mac?

I never claimed that. That said, Lucario is a lackluster 30th percentile in tourney results, behind both Diddy and Bayonetta. More significantly, he is also one of the least played characters, played in tourney at a level squarely between Rosalina and Plant.

 

[shrooby]

Also shrooby shrooby the values for Pichu's recoil damage are correct, but for 1v1 multiplier. I don't know if you knew the multiplier actually affects it. If you want the values without the multiplier I do have them.

The jab adjustments are mostly not noteworthy. Except for Fox. In pre-patch, if you hit somebody with the furthest part of his jab 2, the rapid jab could fail to true combo since they can pull up shield just in time. ROB is also weird since they nearly doubled the hitstun on his farthest hit, resulting in a scenario where, if he's frame perfect, Jab to grab is a true combo against any character who lacks a frame 2 or faster attack to beat it. Jab to Dtilt is also a true combo now, but again, you need to be frame perfect. This isn't revolutionary for ROB, since your spacing would have to be pixel perfect against an opponent who isn't just standing around, but it's definitely a comical overtune of an attack.

Thank you for your help as always!
I did not know that, but I have since corrected it, as well as added the rest of the numbers.

 

[VEC]

Luigi BUFFED OR NERFED?

 

[Axioms]

I did some testing to see what the C.Falcon changes actually do so here's the results.
Testing was done in training mode with 1 cpu set to control and 1-frame per ZL press
Changes are highlighted by: *

3.0.1:
1: When hitting King k. rool with Side-special, K.rool's jump comes out on frame-53 at 0%, and f-59 at 100% from the moment K.rool gets hit, with Side-special being initiated right next to K.rool.
2: Regardless of distance, the faf for K.rool after getting hit is always the same.
3: When K.rool stands in the starting position, C.falcon's Side-special connects when the tip of his left foot is on the outer-line of block -5.8, it does not connect on block -5.9.
4: C.falcon's faf after hitting with side-special is f-41 with K.rool at 0%, this is the same for long-distance, and with K.rool at 100%
5: C.falcon's Side-special hits on f-6 of foe-detection(f-16 of move initiation when next to opponent), same for long-distance
6: C.falcon's Side-special deals 18-frames of hitfreeze, and launches the opponent on f-19
7: C.falcon's Bair 15.6%-hitbox ko's Mario into the right-blastzone at 116% in Training mode-Battlefield's starting position(middle of right-platform) with no DI
8: C.falcon's Ftilt 9.6%-hitbox ko's Mario into the right-blastzone at 236% in Training mode-Battlefield's edge-of-the-right-platform with no DI
9: C.falcon's Ftilt 10.8%-hitbox ko's Mario into the right-blastzone at 215% in Training mode-Battlefield's edge-of-the-right-platform with no DI


3.1.0:
*1: When hitting King k. rool with Side-special, K.rool's jump comes out on frame-54 at 0%, and f-60 at 100% from the moment K.rool gets hit, with Side-special being initiated right next to K.rool.
2: Regardless of distance, the faf for K.rool after getting hit is always the same.
3: When K.rool stands in the starting position, C.falcon's Side-special connects when the tip of his left foot is on the outer-line of block -5.8, it does not connect on block -5.9.
4: C.falcon's faf after hitting with side-special is f-41 0%, this is the same for long-distance, and with K.rool at 100%
*5: C.falcon's Side-special hits on f-5 of foe-detection(f-15 of move initiation when next to opponent), same for long-distance
6: C.falcon's Side-special deals 18-frames of hitfreeze, and launches the opponent on f-19
*7: C.falcon's Bair 15.6%-hitbox ko's Mario into the right-blastzone at 109% in Training mode-Battlefield's starting position(middle of right-platform) with no DI
*8: C.falcon's Ftilt 9.6%-hitbox ko's Mario into the right-blastzone at 211% in Training mode-Battlefield's edge-of-the-right-platform with no DI
*9: C.falcon's Ftilt 10.8%-hitbox ko's Mario into the right-blastzone at 193% in Training mode-Battlefield's edge-of-the-right-platform with no DI
10: There is no difference in the speed at which C.falcon moves after initiating Side-special, nor is there a change in the timing of when he starts moving

There are also changes to Utilt, Fair, and Down-special, but I didn't bother testing those as Utilt's changes were already documented, and Fair and Down-special's changes are too much of a pain to test for.

So to put it simply:
Opponents can move 1-frame later after getting by C.falcon's Side-special
C.falcon's Side-special hits 1-frame earlier
C.falcon's Bair ko's roughly 7% earlier
C.falcon's Ftilt weak-hit ko's roughly 25% earlier
C.falcon's Ftilt strong-hit ko's roughly 22% earlier
(untested by me but included for the sake of being comprehensive)
C.falcon's Utilt hits and stops 3-frames earlier
C.falcon's Fair has a bigger hitbox
C.falcon's Down-special is longer active

The patch notes say that there is a "Reduced startup of when Captain Falcon starts moving forward", but this is incorrect; in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HCErTzAn6Y if you set the video to 1080p60 and press . and , to move forward 1-frame at the time from the 2:19 mark, you can see that he does not move earlier, and there is no difference in C.falcon's position during the move(make note of the fact that the old and new footage seem to start from different positions, I've attempted to show the difference here, https://imgur.com/lnURp3h it seems that the new footage starts just slightly further to the right)
If this line refers to the post-foe-detection hit-startup, then I think it should be phrased like "Reduced startup of when Captain Falcon starts post-proximity-detection-hit by 1 frame"
The patch notes also say that there is "Increased hitstun" on Side-special, but this is incorrect; there is no difference to the freeze-frames, only to the launch-immobility. Admittedly hit-stun is a term used in this community to refer to launch-immobility, but as it is also used by nintendo to refer to freeze-frames, I think it would be better to use the term launch-immobility to avoid confusion.