Patch 1.16 Discussion - "The Witch Hunt is over"

[Flamegeyser]

Nair and BA Nair only works wonders when Cloud recovers low, check out the reddit link I posted. Cloud's Nair and Fair beats out Bayonetta's Nair (BA).


Eh wrong.
W/o limit, his air speed is 14th (to 19th).
With limit, his air speed is the highest in the game.

You're right, I don't know where I pulled the one I said out of. Anyways, him recovering high is a gamble altogether. He's not always able to for one, and if he does, he's still gotta get back on stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Meta Knight is a very difficult matchup when the player is patient.
He's a bait-and-punish character, so his strategy is pretty much the same as Bayo's, and his combos (believe it or not) are more than just Uair 5x to Shuttle Loop.
His burst range is fantastic, his ability to punish with Dash Attack or Dash grab puts a lot of pressure horizontally, while Shuttle Loop does the same vertically, he can even punish landings and jumps with a pretty powerful Usmash (possibly his best tool in this matchup).

In short:

• MK can avoid Dtilt Bullet Arts and Bullet Climax pretty well thanks to multiple jumps and punish speed. The rest of the bullet arts have insignificant damage, though they may impact the result? idk.
• Bayonetta's best button, Witch Twist, is pretty unsafe against him, because:
  a) he should not be blindly attacking you for starters
  b) has less horizontal range than his punishing tools
  c) MK's burst range can punish Bayo's scape routes on a read (attack, dABK or jump away).
• A lot of Bayonettas are Bat-Within happy, and MK is a beast at getting airdodge reads and punishing them, again, his Shuttle Loop applies a lot of pressure. That's part of his gameplan. Not sure if this should gauge for this analysis, but it's important to note.

Though, Bayonetta is still able to do her regular stuff, and MK has a combination of gravity/fallspeed/etc to make him pretty vulnerable to combos himself.
And both will kill quite early.

Very even, imo

This is 1.1.5 and a lot of silly things happen, but it may help you get the gist of the MU (you can also watch any of the Leo vs Wonf videos, there are several in youtube, though most if not all of them are 1.1.5 too):

 

[Derpnaster]

Hello peeps. A Link/Greninja main here to give you a little more encouragement after reading through this entire thread, seriously guys it's just one patch of nerfs, pretty hard nerfs yes, but remember you didn't get the full Greninja treatment, You're still five or so patches away from that level of nerfing.

That said, Bayo still absolutely bodies Link to the floor and ceiling. Even with her actually having smash mechanics applied in full she still is a good character who is now just harder to get results with. It's good to see that many of you decided to stick with it and haven't given up because you can no longer touch someone and laugh as they get carried to the top of the screen.

Joking overgeneralizations aside I suggest just keeping it up, since 1.1.6 is likely the last patch everyone will now have to actually learn the metagame, that includes you all.

So keep on trucking and follow the example of the 12 faithful Greninja players. You'll show everyone Bayonetta is still a top tier threat and should be respected as such.

 

[Patriarachnid]

Hello peeps. A Link/Greninja main here to give you a little more encouragement after reading through this entire thread, seriously guys it's just one patch of nerfs, pretty hard nerfs yes, but remember you didn't get the full Greninja treatment, You're still five or so patches away from that level of nerfing.

That said, Bayo still absolutely bodies Link to the floor and ceiling. Even with her actually having smash mechanics applied in full she still is a good character who is now just harder to get results with. It's good to see that many of you decided to stick with it and haven't given up because you can no longer touch someone and laugh as they get carried to the top of the screen.

Joking overgeneralizations aside I suggest just keeping it up, since 1.1.6 is likely the last patch everyone will now have to actually learn the metagame, that includes you all.

So keep on trucking and follow the example of the 12 faithful Greninja players. You'll show everyone Bayonetta is still a top tier threat and should be respected as such.

As someone who's just recently started trying to learn Greninja, and true mains Olimar, I agree completely. Don't give up on a character because they have weaknesses; focus on pinpointing and exploiting their strengths.

Side note, I'm pretty sure 1.1.6 won't be the last patch, because they still haven't fixed that glitch where ROB's icon won't show up on replays on the 3DS.

 

[deepseadiva]

Please dear god lets not compare ourselves to Greninja mains

Get me off this drowning ship

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I am aware of the Greninja nerf meme, but was it really that bad? Did it make Greninja low tier or something? As much as I am nitpicking, Bayonetta is still a solid mid tier.

 

[Patriarachnid]

I am aware of the Greninja nerf meme, but was it really that bad? Did it make Greninja low tier or something? As much as I am nitpicking, Bayonetta is still a solid mid tier.

Before the grinja nerfs, his upsmash could combo into things, his crouch/crawl made him basically untouchable, sideB could cancel landing lag, his best aerials killed earlier, and upB ended stocks.
It was pretty jank.

 

[Derpnaster]

To answer your question, yes they did. Greninja went from being broken to being the literal worst character in the game. They took pretty much every tool he had away from him except for his movement and one of his aerials. Everything else was pretty much destroyed over six or so patches and only recently has Greninja been shown any semblance of love from the developers.

Edit: I should say that Hydro Pump can still end stocks but it takes work and creativity.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

To answer your question, yes they did. Greninja went from being broken to being the literal worst character in the game.

That sounds like a stretch, surely it isn't worst than Ganon or Zelda.

Everything else was pretty much destroyed over six or so patches

Which 6 exactly? ssbwiki show me that only 1.0.4 was a major nerf to him, and he only got 3 patches that nerfed something of his.

 

[Derpnaster]

That sounds like a stretch, surely it isn't worst than Ganon or Zelda.


Which 6 exactly? ssbwiki show me that only 1.0.4 was a major nerf to him, and he only got 3 patches that nerfed something of his.

Up until I believe 1.1.3 Geninja got nerfed in some way. 1.1.3 I believe took away his ability to Shadow Stall by full hopping and that was the last nerf of note.

And yes Greninja was objectively worse than Zelda, and Ganon. He literally had no tools or unique capabilities as a character. He is significantly better today than that because the devs gave him back most of his toolset however they did massive change to all of it which ended up giving us SSHC.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Up until I believe 1.1.3 Geninja got nerfed in some way. 1.1.3 I believe took away his ability to Shadow Stall by full hopping and that was the last nerf of note.

And yes Greninja was objectively worse than Zelda, and Ganon. He literally had no tools or unique capabilities as a character. He is significantly better today than that because the devs gave him back most of his toolset however they did massive change to all of it which ended up giving us SSHC.

1.0.4 was a nuke, but the rest is only a minor nerf at best.
1.0.5 removed a glitch which allowed Greninja to run before Shadow Sneak.
1.1.0 removed Water Shuriken stalling (worsening recovery) and reduced Dthrow damage (but also reduced the endlag).

That is pretty much it.

Not sure how heavy the 1.0.4 nerfs is but saying he was worse than those two feels like a very big stretch.

 

[Patriarachnid]

1.0.4 was a nuke, but the rest is only a minor nerf at best.
1.0.5 removed a glitch which allowed Greninja to run before Shadow Sneak.
1.1.0 removed Water Shuriken stalling (worsening recovery) and reduced Dthrow damage (but also reduced the endlag).

That is pretty much it.

Not sure how heavy the 1.0.4 nerfs is but saying he was worse than those two feels like a very big stretch.

Plus he's had SSHC the whole time.
It's hard to be bad when you can be immune to multi-hits.

 

[Derpnaster]

Shadow Stalling was a little known tech, Greninja could SS and do a full hop and stall his Shadow Sneak release indefinitely all the while allowing him to only Taunt and jump. It was removed very late but really what the wiki didn't list was all the knockback changes and tweaks that made Greninja unable to combo in a workable manner,what we did get out of Shadow Stall being removed was SSHC, SSHC was not a thing until very recently

Plus he's had SSHC the whole time.
It's hard to be bad when you can be immune to multi-hits.

As I said, Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel was not discovered until recently, everyone acts like we've had it the whole time but in reality it was the changes made to Shadow Sneak that removed everything like Shield Sneak, Running SS, Shadow Stalling, etc, that let us use it.

It also does NOT make Greninja immune to multi hits. SSHC only works on hits that do not cause Greninja to enter tumble state, it just happens that a lot of multi hits also have such properties.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

It was removed very late but really what the wiki didn't list was all the knockback changes and tweaks that made Greninja unable to combo in a workable manner,

Smashboard didn't list anything else either. There doesn't seem any major nerfs after 1.0.4.

 

[Derpnaster]

Smashboard didn't list anything else either. There doesn't seem any major nerfs after 1.0.4.

Most places won't. A lot of Greninja mains suffered the small nerfs in secret. Shadow Sneak was by far the worst hit as it used to be a very useful move, now it really only exists for recovery, and hitstun cancels

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Most places won't. A lot of Greninja mains suffered the small nerfs in secret. Shadow Sneak was by far the worst hit as it used to be a very useful move, now it really only exists for recovery, and hitstun cancels

You are acting worse than I am. Greninja suffered the small nerfs in secret? Really? Why not tell us these secret small nerfs?

 

[Patriarachnid]

Most places won't. A lot of Greninja mains suffered the small nerfs in secret. Shadow Sneak was by far the worst hit as it used to be a very useful move, now it really only exists for recovery, and hitstun cancels

Tbh were I in charge of the balsnce patches, all I'd change on grenin is give him the ability to attack while charging shadow sneak. Imagine all the jank combos you could do.

Also why are we going on such a long greninja tangent in a bayonetta thread

 

[Derpnaster]

Tbh were I in charge of the balsnce patches, all I'd change on grenin is give him the ability to attack while charging shadow sneak. Imagine all the jank combos you could do.

Also why are we going on such a long greninja tangent in a bayonetta thread

I have no idea, Honestly I was just trying to give y'all a little praise and encouragement for not taking the Greninja route and abandoning Bayo because you're no longer broken.

 

[FullMoon]

All this Greninja talk and I just here shaking my head at all the misinformation

Greninja wasn't anywhere close to being as bad as Zelda or Ganondorf. Kind reminder that even with Greninja at his worst aMSa still did really well at APEX

Water Shuriken stalling is still in how do you think footstool combos are done, what was removed was the inconsistency with it.

The Shadow Sneak bugfixes didn't matter in the least outside of maybe cancelling landing lag with it.

Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel was a known thing ever since the Wii U release at least, it was just simply something kept between Greninja mains since it wasn't that relevant of a thing outside of a few MUs.

Greninja wasn't nerfed that badly. He was always mid tier at worst and he wasn't even top tier in the original version. Bayonetta got hit hard but she's still a perfectly functional character and so was Greninja.

 

[ぱみゅ]

WTF happened here?

Let's keep the thread on-topic, please.
Jeez

 

[Flamegeyser]

Let's just take a moment to recognize that, in all of the potential nerfed glory of Bayonetta, the game is and has been very balanced now for a while. Yeah some characters are more viable than others, but anyone can be played well and as a whole there aren't too many unwinnable matchups.

Anyways, I think that Bayo's got a mid-tier matchup spread but a high tier potential. She's gotten much harder, some of these combos I've seen are harder than Ryu's, and certainly harder to set up. I wonder who's next on the chopping block if anyone. My first guesses are Rosalina, Cloud, or Sonic, but for all I know it might be none of them. I guess only time will tell, but in the meantime we'll just have to git gud.

 

[Ghidorah14]

LOOK AT THAT SDI. LOOK AT IT.

(this is pre-patch)

 

[blackghost]

good for esam to call the community out and then proove on a major victory that he's right. now tyrow was always a flowchart bayo but he died ZERO times to a bayo string that involved witch twist. thats immaculate di and sdi

 

[33percentgod]

All of the zero to death combos are out. I

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Late for the party dude.

 

[Philos-kun]

Don't know if this is posted already but Dtilt to Usmash is a combo at 80-120% ...
The Dtilt must be close so you send the opponent upwards and immediately use Usmash.

I've only tested it on training on lvl9 CPU, maybe it's avoidable by DI up but it did register as a true combo on Lucario at 80%+

Edit: nevermind, tried with different characters and aparently it only comboes into Lucario for some reason...

 

[Xephilon]

Don't know if this is posted already but Dtilt to Usmash is a combo at 80-120% ...
The Dtilt must be close so you send the opponent upwards and immediately use Usmash.

I've only tested it on training on lvl9 CPU, maybe it's avoidable by DI up but it did register as a true combo on Lucario at 80%+

Edit: nevermind, tried with different characters and aparently it only comboes into Lucario for some reason...

It combos into plenty, dont worry. For example: It works on DK, Sheik, Ganondorf, Lucario, etc. Usually at 90-110%

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

some people showed me this video to try and proove that bayonetta was still OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6BkzD4JFg

and im wondering, am i crazy? or was megafox just very very bad at the MU.

 

[Ghidorah14]

What was that fox even doing? I feel like he was just pressing buttons the whole game and didnt really have a strategy, like all the jab1-jab2-nothings.

He just wasnt that good, honestly.

 

[Patriarachnid]

(All of the zero to death combos are out.)

Dtilt -> Utilt -> Utilt -> Uair -> upB -> DJ Fair1+2 -> upB -> ABK -> ABK -> Uair
Dtilt can also be Uthrow, and the order of the specials after the Fair can be mixed up to be whatever.
Also the upBs can be reversed to mix up SDI.

 

[CyberZixx]

Dtilt -> Utilt -> Utilt -> Uair -> upB -> DJ Fair1+2 -> upB -> ABK -> ABK -> Uair
Dtilt can also be Uthrow, and the order of the specials after the Fair can be mixed up to be whatever.
Also the upBs can be reversed to mix up SDI.

That is hardly true though right? I was watching some Pink fresh sets and getting the uptilts never even seemed guaranteed. let alone the specials which we all know can be SDI'd

 

[blackghost]

That is hardly true though right? I was watching some Pink fresh sets and getting the uptilts never even seemed guaranteed. let alone the specials which we all know can be SDI'd

we pink fresh zero to death comboed zephr on stream so yeah. players have no idea how to di her. watch them dir to strings thatcarent even close to true is a them problem.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

we pink fresh zero to death comboed zephr on stream so yeah. players have no idea how to di her. watch them dir to strings thatcarent even close to true is a them problem.

May I get a link? Thank you.

 

[Philos-kun]

People with no DI skills should not be allowed to play Smash, so a 0-death is actually deserved in that case lol.

 

[CyberZixx]

oh i agree, if someone falls for a combo like that then by all means do it. It just seemed that poster was acting like it was true, when of course it aint.

 

[Patriarachnid]

That is hardly true though right? I was watching some Pink fresh sets and getting the uptilts never even seemed guaranteed. let alone the specials which we all know can be SDI'd

It's not true, but we can mix things up to make SDI-ing out more difficult, like spontaneoulsly B-reversing Witch Twist, or mixing up the order of the specials.

Also, more than just a Utilts can lead into it. Heel Slide -> HS Kick leads into it, and Uthrow can lead into it (after certain %s) if you manage to read what they do after it. Also, after a certain point, just Dtilt will lead into the Uair.

So yeah. In theory, always escapable. In practice, still always escapable, but we can make it harder for them to do so.

 

[Lorde]

Bayonetta has been out for over 4 months and people still have no idea how to fight her. She's annoying to fight, so the general public still finds it easier to complain about her than to learn how to effectively combat her. Sadly, I don't see that mindset changing anytime soon.

Also afaik, nothing true combos out of fair 2 except for fair 3. If you're trying to extend your combos, use fair 1 (and try to hit with the hitbox closest to Bayo because that one is the best to combo with).

 

[Dre89]

People with no DI skills should not be allowed to play Smash, so a 0-death is actually deserved in that case lol.

So basically casuals shouldn't be allowed to play Smash?

 

[Flamegeyser]

So uhh, nair is pretty godly. The disjoint and speed allow it to go toe-to-toe with some of the best aerials out there. It shuts down a lot of short hop approaches and is almost perfectly safe. It's an excellent move that I've got to learn to use in the neutral more.

 

[Masque]

some people showed me this video to try and proove that bayonetta was still OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6BkzD4JFg

and im wondering, am i crazy? or was megafox just very very bad at the MU.

To be fair, Zack is an excellent Peach/Bayo player, so I think his skill also contributed to the outcome.