Patch 1.16 Discussion - "The Witch Hunt is over"

[BluB]

https://twitter.com/michaelpokey3/status/695530570328207360
Any1 know how this works?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's just a pivot walk (when changing directions when walking, some momentum is maintained). Still a very interesting tactic, though not very explored.

 

[Fenny]

im sorry can we talk bout how wii fit upair cleanly beat a divekick? thats ridiculous.
either way that wii fit should be ale to (at the very least) escape wt2. but the rage allows our fair string to have knockback like it did prepatch.

Her Uair beats Cloud's Dair iirc, so yeah it's pretty nuts.

Also there has been more than one time for me where Witch Twist 2 has caused people to SDI themselves upwards into the blast zone just because of how high the multiplier is. It almost works like Boost Kick in that regard.

 

[Patriarachnid]

Also there has been more than one time for me where Witch Twist 2 has caused people to SDI themselves upwards into the blast zone just because of how high the multiplier is. It almost works like Boost Kick in that regard.

Not to mention the knockback on each of the middle hits is high enough that SDI-ing out can throw you above the blast zone as well. Judging by the red lightning in that replay, I'm assuming that's what would've happened to Wii Fit had she escaped.

Case in point:

 

[Fenny]

Not to mention the knockback on each of the middle hits is high enough that SDI-ing out can throw you above the blast zone as well. Judging by the red lightning in that replay, I'm assuming that's what would've happened to Wii Fit had she escaped.

Case in point:

Another case in point:

After 15:25. It resulted in a complete reversal that won Salem the tourney. He probably put it best - it was almost like a buff for her.

 

[blackghost]

Another case in point:

After 15:25. It resulted in a complete reversal that won Salem the tourney. He probably put it best - it was almost like a buff for her.

pink fresh said recently that he thinks she is capable of zss stuff now if your opponent escapes you canbait an escape and cause that to happen.

 

[Patriarachnid]

He probably put it best - it was almost like a buff for her.

Seriously. I feel like 1.1.6 had a lot of things like that, where something looks like a straight nerf on the surface, but secretly can work in Bayonetta's favor in certain situations. (Though that's probably just because of the was Smash 4 was designed, where f**king everything about anything has both good and bad qualities intrinsic to it.)

Personally, this tech, if you can call it that, only strengthens my belief that Bayonetta has the strongest mix-up game of the entire cast. I mean, SDIing can get you killed. SDI! You know, that thing you reflexively do during any multi-hit attack, which has also been lauded as the one counter to all Bayonetta combos? It can cost you a stock at as low a 50% near the top. Not even so far up that you're off-screen; just vaguely in the top quarter of what's visible.

(On a less serious note, I vote that we call this tech, where Witch Twist unexpectedly kills stupid early with SDI, the "Plot Twist".)

 

[CreamyFatone]

It's just a pivot walk (when changing directions when walking, some momentum is maintained). Still a very interesting tactic, though not very explored.

That doesn't explain the landing nair to grab slide thing.

Also, have we ever figured out what the crouch crawling thing is with Bayo?

 

[Lavani]

It's a weird momentum thing that happens when the acceleration near the start of the walk animation is interrupted. Meta Knight has it too.

Nair>grab slide works because nair landing lag lets you buffer a max speed walk forward without dashing, and adds in your landing momentum for extra speed.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Can't opponents SDi downwards tho and escape punishment from WTw? That's what I heard anyways. Yeah, that's an amazing development. In the Bayo Discord we mingled with the idea early, but not many people put it to use. The idea was that we can make it basically a 50/50 with SDi up, because you can always double WTw if they SDi up, and then make sure we triple jump and uair if they do it twice. I still don't really trust myself to hit WTw combos, but it is useful if you use it more sparingly. For example, at high%s what I like to do is WTw->ABK-> dj uair. The new KBG of WTw1 allows the ABK to hit, and the ABK's new KBG allows jump uair to hit. It is another kill confirm, which we desperately need. Good job, guys.

On the Diddy matchup note, Diddy ****s on everyone, and I think that PF was probably way better than Angel, and it was painful to watch him lose. I don't even know what to do really other than maybe outspace since our limbs our longer? I don't know, it's almost as bad as Tink.

Finally, a "new" combo that I like to do is that whenever I can hit a utilt, I go utilt->crossup uair->dj bair->ABK->ABK->uair/bair. It's a lot of percent, difficult to escape, can't really be SDi'd, and makes utilt even more useful. Other than that I go for nair->ABK, fair1->uair, and bair->uair combos.

Hahah, what a blessing in disguise. The meta is way more developed than it's ever been.

 

[Altais]

LETS SHOW THEM THE WITCH HAS NOT BEEN KILLED U ONLY BURNED HER

"The strongest steel is forged through the hottest fire" ~Chinese Proverb

Though I am still bummed out that Bayonetta was nerf-hammered, I am determined to win with her. As a Robin main, I have defeated many pro Sheik, Cloud, and Diddy players--all because I refused to believe it was impossible to win with Robin. Even after being nerfed, I fancy Bayonetta is a higher tier than Robin. Ergo, that gives me more than enough reason to master Bayonetta's new playstyle. Reads and mind games are mine speciality.

Although, I do hope Bayonetta's moveset will see some repairs in a (possible) future patch.

 

[blackghost]

from what i can tell playing her its just really mentally taxing to play a "combo character" that is reliant on frame traps (most of which arent very good if you've seen them before) and given the results from evo the top 3 bayo (pf, salem, and saj) are all struggling. having bad matchups with shiek, mario, and diddy just puts a lot of strain on her and its just weird playing a character who is built on being offensive yet requires your opponent to overextend on thier own choosing.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Although, I do hope Bayonetta's moveset will see some repairs in a (possible) future patch.

Sad to say, but I can't see a patch coming.
If there is though...
Revert Dive Kick to be able to combo (Angle 80).
Reduce the SDI multiplier a bit. (1.5x?)
That is about all it takes to make her better while hopefully not broken.

 

[blackghost]

id settle with a ground speed or air speed buff. tell me why a character that runs 70 mph loses a foot race to rosalina or mario? shes equal to ryu who doesnt even run in his native game. she needs some tool to pressure with.
who are oyu guys dealing with people that simply sit in shield? becuase locally my scene is full of bad bayo matches (tink, link, mario, diddy, ect) i cant catch anyone and heel slide is only good as a tech chase.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

who are oyu guys dealing with people that simply sit in shield?

Could be useful to use a Bullet Climax.
But there isn't much you can do about shield spamming.

 

[Ghidorah14]

who are oyu guys dealing with people that simply sit in shield?

Grab.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I dunno, I think even if she were better, her playerbase is too low, not coordinated enough, and not dedicated enough to have allowed any of the aforementioned 3 to do particularly well. Only things taxing about her are her lack of safe kill options and poor grab game. And HS is a prime landing catcher and long ranged punish, it's amazing at both of those, since we low profile, and I'm finding utilt to be legit one of our best moves for combos and kills (AKA utilt->uair). Our MU spread is kinda ass, but it's not like we're the only ones with that problem. Look at Samus, her playerbase is incredibly dedicated, smart, coordinated, and hardworking, and they've optimized her far more than anyone expected. Maybe we have a limit, too, but like Sky Williams said, we have to be the ones to push her there.

As for changes, why don't we just make Divekick 5 times stronger so that it can kill at 110% amirite?
EZPZ

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I dunno, I think even if she were better, her playerbase is too low, not coordinated enough, and not dedicated enough to have allowed any of the aforementioned 3 to do particularly well. Only things taxing about her are her lack of safe kill options and poor grab game. And HS is a prime landing catcher and long ranged punish, it's amazing at both of those, since we low profile, and I'm finding utilt to be legit one of our best moves for combos and kills (AKA utilt->uair). Our MU spread is kinda ***, but it's not like we're the only ones with that problem. Look at Samus, her playerbase is incredibly dedicated, smart, coordinated, and hardworking, and they've optimized her far more than anyone expected. Maybe we have a limit, too, but like Sky Williams said, we have to be the ones to push her there.

As for changes, why don't we just make Divekick 5 times stronger so that it can kill at 110% amirite?
EZPZ

Her playbase is low because she not only had the reputation of being "toxic" but also become a pretty lackluster character after the nerf.

I'd argue a lack of consistent damage output is also a problem as her special combos is easy to SDI and her crazy normal combo only works well at low % with low rage, leaving her with a few unimpressive normal combos.

I don't really see any sort of huge competitive success for Bayonetta without some sort of miracle.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Her playbase is low because she not only had the reputation of being "toxic" but also become a pretty lackluster character after the nerf.

I'd argue a lack of consistent damage output is also a problem as her special combos is easy to SDI and her crazy normal combo only works well at low % with low rage, leaving her with a few unimpressive normal combos.

I don't really see any sort of huge competitive success for Bayonetta without some sort of miracle.

I wouldn't call her lackluster, she still has crazy potential, and isn't just an inferior ZSS clone like we originally thought pre-patch. Don't be so negative, that's the first step to not trying, which is exactly what we can't do. What we need to get competitive success, IMO, is to both coordinate the meta, as well as show people how good she still is. How many people are gonna pick up or try Megaman thanks to Kamemushi? All it takes is just one spark to bring a whole mass of players. People won't pick her up now, but they don't hate her post patch like they did pre patch. Besides, her normal combos do work with rage, they just have to be slightly tweaked. Hopefully next patch will give us a consistent kill option, but even without changes the playerbase she has, myself included, are gonna keep trying to develop the meta.

If no one played Diddy post-nerf, he'd probly be seen as low high tier or high mid, amirite?

 

[Fenny]

Her playbase is low because she not only had the reputation of being "toxic" but also become a pretty lackluster character after the nerf.

I'd argue a lack of consistent damage output is also a problem as her special combos is easy to SDI and her crazy normal combo only works well at low % with low rage, leaving her with a few unimpressive normal combos.

I don't really see any sort of huge competitive success for Bayonetta without some sort of miracle.

Breh, are you sure Bayo is right for you at this point? You really don't hold her in very high regards since the patch rofl

It's actually the opposite - Bayo's far more liked by the masses since her nerf, with people like Mr R and Dabuz still considering her to be top 10. Salem showed just how capable Bayo is in the right hands, having gone 2-1 against ZeRo at EVO, and every game was a last stock-last hit situation.

Like Flamegeyser said, negativity isn't going to get anybody anywhere. Kamemushi came 2nd going solo MM and people have done nothing but underestimate the Blue Bomber for ages. Day came 13th with a Lucario - would you expect a Lucario to be in the top 16 of the most packed Smash 4 tournament ever? There being three Bayonettas in top 64 in an event with over 2500 entries is a testament to her potential in and of itself.

 

[blackghost]

I think bayo is a natural good pick against zero because his neutral isn't on part with many other players now. He is very dtilt heavy.
Were the matches streamed?
Also don't be fooled many players still hate bayo. Including a bunch of commentators people like Pk sparks for one.
I want her to succeed but I'm not sure
Going to solo main her for now.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I wouldn't call her lackluster, she still has crazy potential, and isn't just an inferior ZSS clone like we originally thought pre-patch. Don't be so negative, that's the first step to not trying, which is exactly what we can't do. What we need to get competitive success, IMO, is to both coordinate the meta, as well as show people how good she still is. How many people are gonna pick up or try Megaman thanks to Kamemushi? All it takes is just one spark to bring a whole mass of players. People won't pick her up now, but they don't hate her post patch like they did pre patch. Besides, her normal combos do work with rage, they just have to be slightly tweaked. Hopefully next patch will give us a consistent kill option, but even without changes the playerbase she has, myself included, are gonna keep trying to develop the meta.

If no one played Diddy post-nerf, he'd probly be seen as low high tier or high mid, amirite?

As negative as I was, I was being honest.
Bayonetta may have some crazy potential but currently she has pretty lackluster results, hence a low playerbase.
It has been about 2 month since the nerfs, we probably have to wait for Smash 5 for a Bayonetta buff.

Still. Good luck in pushing Bayonetta's meta. I already drop Smash 4 for another game (Overwatch, not that I think one game is better than the other).

Breh, are you sure Bayo is right for you at this point? You really don't hold her in very high regards since the patch rofl

It's actually the opposite - Bayo's far more liked by the masses since her nerf, with people like Mr R and Dabuz still considering her to be top 10. Salem showed just how capable Bayo is in the right hands, having gone 2-1 against ZeRo at EVO, and every game was a last stock-last hit situation.

Like Flamegeyser said, negativity isn't going to get anybody anywhere. Kamemushi came 2nd going solo MM and people have done nothing but underestimate the Blue Bomber for ages. Day came 13th with a Lucario - would you expect a Lucario to be in the top 16 of the most packed Smash 4 tournament ever? There being three Bayonettas in top 64 in an event with over 2500 entries is a testament to her potential in and of itself.

Probably not I guess, not that it bothers me too much anymore. I still want to see a extremely successful Bayonetta.
I am not sure if you can say she is liked by the masses. She isn't as hated as much, but certainly little to no one is picking her up seriously after, and many many people has dropped her in favour of "better pick". People that like her now are very likely to be the same people that liked her before.

 

[Fenny]

I think bayo is a natural good pick against zero because his neutral isn't on part with many other players now. He is very dtilt heavy.
Were the matches streamed?
Also don't be fooled many players still hate bayo. Including a bunch of commentators people like Pk sparks for one.
I want her to succeed but I'm not sure
Going to solo main her for now.

Yeah, i think so

And yeah, people are entitled to their opinions. Same way people hate Bayo is the same way people might hate Cloud these days. Hell, people are all of a sudden starting to grow tired of Mario just for his increasing success.

Probably not I guess, not that it bothers me too much anymore. I still want to see a extremely successful Bayonetta.
I am not sure if you can say she is liked by the masses. She isn't as hated as much, but certainly little to no one is picking her up seriously after, and many many people has dropped her in favour of "better pick". People that like her now are very likely to be the same people that liked her before.

Bayo getting new support is important and all, but when you see people like Nairo or ESAM who have effectively carried their character singlehandedly in the competitive scene all this time, I don't know if getting a bigger following will do a big lot for her.

 

[blackghost]

mario sucess has been two players.
cloud is in the same place bayo was a lot of whining: but no winning despite people claiming "he will eventually dominate"
i dont think nairo is the only zss. i think hes just the one that travels the most mars is still out there.

 

[Fenny]

mario sucess has been two players.
cloud is in the same place bayo was a lot of whining: but no winning despite people claiming "he will eventually dominate"
i dont think nairo is the only zss. i think hes just the one that travels the most mars is still out there.

oh wow, how did I forget Marss? I guess there's also Nick Riddle, but Marss and Nairo tend to make more headway.

 

[Lorde]

giving bayonetta her old dABK angle back would literally make her broken, though

i don't think bayonetta needs any buffs tbh

the nerfs were super harsh, but most of them were justified imo

uair not comboing out of wt2 at kill percents makes me cry, though

 

[Ghidorah14]

As negative as I was, I was being honest.
Bayonetta may have some crazy potential but currently she has pretty lackluster results, hence a low playerbase.

So what?

No seriously, so what? Who cares about the lack of results? Who cares about the lack of new bayo players? Bayo is not an easy character to play, and there's 50+ other characters to choose from. God forbid they dont all flock to just one. Rome wasnt built in a day, as they say.

What matters are the people who do player her, and the players who represent her. We are the ones who will advance her metagame and push her forward. No one else is going to do that for us.

Still. Good luck in pushing Bayonetta's meta. I already drop Smash 4 for another game (Overwatch, not that I think one game is better than the other).

And here's the million dollar question: then why are you still here?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

giving bayonetta her old dABK angle back would literally make her broken, though

Not when you can SDI out of it.
Consider this. With all of her specials having 2x SDI and Dive Kick having 80 degree, what inescapable 0 to death do Bayonetta have?

So what?

No seriously, so what? Who cares about the lack of results? Who cares about the lack of new bayo players? Bayo is not an easy character to play, and there's 50+ other characters to choose from. God forbid they dont all flock to just one. Rome wasnt built in a day, as they say.

What matters are the people who do player her, and the players who represent her. We are the ones who will advance her metagame and push her forward. No one else is going to do that for us.

Not gonna take you seriously this time but I will answer you.
Nothing. I answered why Bayonetta has a low playerbase, I didn't say Bayonetta will suck because of it.

And here's the million dollar question: then why are you still here?

Because I still love Bayonetta and Smash.
EDIT: Where is my million dollar

 

[Ghidorah14]

Not gonna take you seriously this time but I will answer you.
Nothing. I answered why Bayonetta has a low playerbase, I didn't say Bayonetta will suck because of it.

You coulda just not replied. Answering my question by telling me that arent going to answer my question doesnt do or change anything.

Because I still love Bayonetta and Smash.
EDIT: Where is my million dollar

Quitters dont win anything.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You coulda just not replied. Answering my question by telling me that arent going to answer my question doesnt do or change anything.

Huh?
You asked so what if Bayonetta had a low playerbase, I replied with "nothing". Bayonetta having a low playbase doesn't mean much. She can still push the meta.
All I did was answer why Bayonetta had a low playerbase.

Quitters dont win anything.

There goes my lootbox money

 

[blackghost]

I'm trying to be a realist. We know she probably has potential the problem is given how bayo now works most of what we do fundamentally isn't real. And that's a major issue for a character. Characters that thrive on mu inexperience aren't considered good in fighting games.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

I'm upset that while nerfing Bayonetta, they neglected to fix any bugs that she had. For instance, occasionally, I will attempt to end a combo with a Fair string. However, after landing Fair1, the second two hits will fail to connect. This happens at all percents, where normally all three hits should connect with no problems. It doesn't happen every single time, but the fact that something like this can happen makes me a bit angry.

 

[Lorde]

Multihit moves not connecting is like the epitome of smash

just be grateful her fair isn't melee zelda's smash attacks

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Multihit moves not connecting is like the epitome of smash

just be grateful her fair isn't melee zelda's smash attacks

Lol, true. At least it isn't Zelda's Sm4sh Fair either.

 

[Lorde]

Don't even get me started on sm4sh lightning kicks. bair used to be a viable oos option and now it's just trash. you can't really use them ever now because they're so laggy

Have any of you noticed bayo's fair123 not connecting more frequently after the nerfs? the knockback of fair1+2 wasn't touched, so idk why that would happen. maybe it's just a weird, anecdotal coincidence

 

[Ghidorah14]

Let's be real; how many people used fair123 pre-patch? It was all about dat fair12.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Don't even get me started on sm4sh lightning kicks. bair used to be a viable oos option and now it's just trash. you can't really use them ever now because they're so laggy

Have any of you noticed bayo's fair123 not connecting more frequently after the nerfs? the knockback of fair1+2 wasn't touched, so idk why that would happen. maybe it's just a weird, anecdotal coincidence

Happened to me as well. Very annoying when attempting to finish a combo with Fair.

 

[Lorde]

But wt>wt>dABK>ABK>fair123 was a super easy 0-death on sheik

 

[SoccerStar9001]

But wt>wt>dABK>ABK>fair123 was a super easy 0-death on sheik

How do you land a dABK after burning up the 2nd WT? Triple jump glitch?
ABK doesn't combo into fair 123 well either.
Also, if you miss the dABK, you're dead.

 

[blackghost]

But wt>wt>dABK>ABK>fair123 was a super easy 0-death on sheik

i need to see video of this. did you annotate that correctly? and you do realize this is a suiccide combo right? and theres no way this was a true combo.