Patch 1.16 Discussion - "The Witch Hunt is over"

[Xephilon]

You can get a follow up after dABK but it depends on the opponent's DI:
If they DI towards Bayo, it works just like old dABK, so anything works
If they don't DI, you can get an ABK mix up but they have time to airdodge and punish.
If they DI away from Bayo, there's no follow up what's so ever at any percent, maybe a bullet arts aerial but that's it.

deepseadiva Wait till they upload Pink Fresh vs Mister Eric. He played so darn well, I had to replay it a few times.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So I finally got a chance to lab Bayonetta for a bit. She still has like a million combos off of almost every normal.
Though most of them are like 2-3 hits.

 

[Dre89]

So I finally got a chance to lab Bayonetta for a bit. She still has like a million combos off of almost every normal.
Though most of them are like 2-3 hits.

You can still even ladder people in certain circumstances. Upb sideb DJ upb sideb uair can still work a lot of the time, and is good damage even if you don't get the uair.

People here talk about SDI but the reality is people aren't consistently doing it in tourneys so it's not relevant.

She's not the best character anymore but she's still in the upper half of the cast. Upb is like a top 5 move in the game, it's pretty silly.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You can still even ladder people in certain circumstances. Upb sideb DJ upb sideb uair can still work a lot of the time, and is good damage even if you don't get the uair.

That combo certainly doesn't "work a lot of the time", it is super easy to SDI out.

People here talk about SDI but the reality is people aren't consistently doing it in tourneys so it's not relevant.

It is extremely relevant to Bayonetta's meta, SDI outright kills pretty much all of her combos. SDI isn't hard to learn, wavedashing and SHFFL in Melee is arguable harder than SDIing out Bayonetta's combos.

She's not the best character anymore but she's still in the upper half of the cast. Upb is like a top 5 move in the game, it's pretty silly.

IMO, mid tier at best. Witch Twist does 6% and is easy to SDI out, any combos involving Witch Twist can become quite inconsistent against someone who knows SDI. Tier list is made with top level play in mind and eSam pretty much shown he is more the capable of SDIing out her combos even in 1.1.5.

 

[Dre89]

That combo certainly doesn't "work a lot of the time", it is super easy to SDI out.


It is extremely relevant to Bayonetta's meta, SDI outright kills pretty much all of her combos. SDI isn't hard to learn, wavedashing and SHFFL in Melee is arguable harder than SDIing out Bayonetta's combos.


IMO, mid tier at best. Witch Twist does 6% and is easy to SDI out, any combos involving Witch Twist can become quite inconsistent against someone who knows SDI. Tier list is made with top level play in mind and eSam pretty much shown he is more the capable of SDIing out her combos even in 1.1.5.

Show me sets where people are consistently SDIing it. I don't really care about theoretical DI/SDI. It's not currently happening in tournaments so until it does it's not relevant

WTw is one of the best moves in the game because of its overall utility. Aside from its combo and recovery potential, it's an amazing OOS and GTFO options. It effectively negates her frame data weakness because whenever you feel pressured up close you can just upb and reset.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Show me sets where people are consistently SDIing it. I don't really care about theoretical DI/SDI. It's not currently happening in tournaments so until it does it's not relevant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44WC0xJQzM

WTw is one of the best moves in the game because of its overall utility. Aside from its combo and recovery potential, it's an amazing OOS and GTFO options. It effectively negates her frame data weakness because whenever you feel pressured up close you can just upb and reset.

Witch Twist is pretty good, but calling it a top 5 move is a flat out lie.

 

[Ghidorah14]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44WC0xJQzM

Wow, one set, congrats. That totally negates all of the other times when people didnt DI.

Witch Twist is pretty good, but calling it a top 5 move is a flat out lie.

No, it's called an opinion.


Geez soccerstar, ever since the patch, you've turned into a huge sourpuss and just seem to go off of numbers and patch notes vs. actual, first hand experience. People are not machines; when they get hit by a combo starting move, they dont go "NOW EXECUTING SDI.EXE" the very frame it connects.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I dunno. I love to have hope for Bayo, but her matchup spread is absolute ass right now. I'd argue that it wasn't even as good as other people used to think, but now more than 20 characters IMO beat us out.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Wow, one set, congrats. That totally negates all of the other times when people didnt DI.

Sarcasm or not, it does. It is way more painful to watch tons of players (a lot of them considered high or even top level) not SDI'ing at all and making the combos look true when players like Dath shows how it should be done, but isn't.

People are not machines; when they get hit by a combo starting move, they dont go "NOW EXECUTING SDI.EXE" the very frame it connects.

I might agree that a lot of combo starters like Heel Slide, non-midcombo Afterburner Kick, Dtilt and Utilt are very difficult to react to and immediatly SDI.
But then you have moves like Witch Twist: a multihit you are expected to react to, and ABK: a not-always guaranteed followup move that you should be expecting after you got hit by WTw and sent into the right position for it.
Not DI'ing either of these last two has no excuse, players are lazy.

 

[Zalezus]

Been following this discussion and the meta game thread and I feel like people cannot get out of thinking that certain combos and strings involving Witch Twist and ABK are unreliable because the option of SDI is more of a factor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nT2VOLwrqk



Keeping in mind that:

Witch Twist - Frame 4 still on startup, 8-11, 12-16, 17-22 for the middle hits, and 24 for the last hit
ABK - Frame 7 on startup, and the more important Frame 15 late hitbox

These attacks are still relatively quick/hard to react to, have shorter strings that lead into them, and if the above video on reaction time has traction in real life tournament situations (I'm sure it does, everyone makes mistakes) then they will be lethal mix ups when your opponent becomes conditioned* to particular DI directions. I'd love to see more top Bayos not shy away from abusing Witch Twist for the great OoS/GTFO/DI mix up it can be.

SoccerStar9001 I won't say that people can't get out of it, just that I don't think Bayo should use Witch Twist any less because of it. At worst you don't connect the last hit and end up in the air ready to act according to where the target went, at best you get a *true* aerial follow up or a juicy ABK (late for the first twist, early for the second.) Just the fact that that is always a possibility unless X keeps peeps ready with the trigger fingers and afraid of the inevitable Twist.

Mind games.

 

[deepseadiva]

I dunno. I love to have hope for Bayo, but her matchup spread is absolute *** right now. I'd argue that it wasn't even as good as other people used to think, but now more than 20 characters IMO beat us out.

Hmm

Who are these 20? Here's my on the fly preliminary MU spread.

Probably Good




Probably Bad


IMO it's just the short spammy characters Bayonetta isn't equipped to handle. Which is fine, but I wouldn't call it "absolute ***". But again, just my preliminary impression.

 

[Xephilon]

The only ones that I find hard for Bayo are those with great neutral/superior frame data (, maybe )
Those who have a REALLY good projectile game ()
And this horrible character ()

And to me they don't go anything farther than 60/40. Worst three being

The rest are either manageable or in Bayo's favor.

 

[leesinger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E44WC0xJQzM


Witch Twist is pretty good, but calling it a top 5 move is a flat out lie.

Witch twist is easily a top five move in the game actually. I'd put in in top 3 moves in the game next to ryu's shoruken and diddy's banana. I recently got second at a local con event type tourney and used bayos witch twist to flat out beat clouds limit break up b resulting in a gimp. Ill post a vid once they post the youtube vids.

 

[Patriarachnid]

Speaking of Witch Twist, one change in 1.1.6 that's really baffling to me is the increased KB/KBG on Witch Twist 2, because that change just means Bayo can't reliably get kill confirms off of her janky combos at high %s.

Seeing as like half the cast has some form of throw -> kill combo that takes fewer reads than landing a full 1.1.6 Bayo Combo (assuming the opponent actually knows how to fight her/SDI), and her other kill options are really weird, it just seems strange that they'd take that away from her.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Hmm

Who are these 20? Here's my on the fly preliminary MU spread.

Probably Good




Probably Bad


IMO it's just the short spammy characters Bayonetta isn't equipped to handle. Which is fine, but I wouldn't call it "absolute ***". But again, just my preliminary impression.

Oh man, can't remember them all, but I'll list a few more. Oli, ROB, Shulk (I know I know, but his range shuts us down), Sheik (again, probably), Lucas, Ness, Yoshi, Cloud (although I kind of disagree on that one myself), DH, and maybe Mewtwo. These are all debatable of course, but many of them are only listed as 45:55 in their favor. We already had plenty of bad matchups pre-patch, but now they're more noticeable since our main kill confirms and combos are gone.

 

[Dre89]

Speaking of killing, what are her best set ups outside of witch time?

I think dtilt can lead into uair but I'm not sure how guaranteed it is.

Bair kills but I don't know how to set it up.

I feel like FF fair could set up kills but I'm not sure.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Speaking of killing, what are her best set ups outside of witch time?

I think dtilt can lead into uair but I'm not sure how guaranteed it is.

Bair kills but I don't know how to set it up.

I feel like FF fair could set up kills but I'm not sure.

Dtilt is guaranteed into uair, and it kills around 130%->160% character, stage, and rage dependent. Dtilt->bair also works, and kills even earlier off the side, but it's significantly harder. Utilt->uair also works, but you have to get the sweetspot hitbox which can be hard to do, still it kills pretty damn early. Sour utilt->bair works, but it's pretty hard due to the angle that utilt sends them at and the lack of lag so you can confirm that the utilt actually hit. Still, it kills super early, like 110% or less. Those are my main kill confirms, and along with just raw bairs, make up the majority of my kills (closely followed by fthrow). If anyone can think of any more, please list them. FF fair can actually lead into fsmash, but the timing is like 1 frame IIRC, and it doesn't work on fast fallers.

 

[Lorde]

Uair>bair kills, but I've yet to actually use it in an actual match, so idk how great it is

Dtilt>uair is probably our most reliable kill set-up

 

[blackghost]

since when is cloud in our favor? thats news to me. diddy is pretty much the worst as far as i know. until people actually start sdi'ing out of our stuff we shouldn't pay to much mind to it yet. but i dont see that happening this community is actually as lazy as esam said it was.
i mean people thought this was NEW https://clips.twitch.tv/byo_controller/SleepyGalagoPartyTime

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Hmm

Who are these 20? Here's my on the fly preliminary MU spread.

Probably Good




Probably Bad


IMO it's just the short spammy characters Bayonetta isn't equipped to handle. Which is fine, but I wouldn't call it "absolute ***". But again, just my preliminary impression.

Are all bad MU imo (not unwinnable per say, just bad), might have missed some too.
The rest is even or somewhat good.
Wouldn't call it absolute **** myself, but many of these are very common in high level play so she is pretty much screwed for the most part.

 

[Patriarachnid]

I agree that is an even/slightly favorable matchup; his projectile is bad, his grab is bad, his recovery is Down Smash fodder (if you space it right so as to avoid his Up-b's hitbox), dABK can get us out of Uair juggles, and we can harass him with D-tilt Bullet Arts if he tries to Limit camp. Beyond that, he's still got the rest of his Dumb Cloud Stuff, which is dumb, but I think Bayo has the tools to deal with it for the most part (or, at least, is better-equipped for it than most of the rest of the cast).

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I agree that is an even/slightly favorable matchup; his projectile is bad, his grab is bad, his recovery is Down Smash fodder (if you space it right so as to avoid his Up-b's hitbox), dABK can get us out of Uair juggles, and we can harass him with D-tilt Bullet Arts if he tries to Limit camp. Beyond that, he's still got the rest of his Dumb Cloud Stuff, which is dumb, but I think Bayo has the tools to deal with it for the most part (or, at least, is better-equipped for it than most of the rest of the cast).

I would disagree that Cloud is a even or favorable MU.
Most of your points are correct, but the dumb Cloud stuff is very very good and easily makes me believe Cloud is a bad MU.

 

[Beetle Juice]

I would disagree that Cloud is a even or favorable MU.
Most of your points are correct, but the dumb Cloud stuff is very very good and easily makes me believe Cloud is a bad MU.

Also keep in mind that an offstage cloud with limit will also try to save it if he can with recover with his second jump, which makes him smash fodder if conditioned right (Down smash if he choose ledge and a spaced up/front smash if he goes for stage).

 

[Patriarachnid]

I would disagree that Cloud is a even or favorable MU.
Most of your points are correct, but the dumb Cloud stuff is very very good and easily makes me believe Cloud is a bad MU.

Perhaps it's more useful to think of it not as "this is a good matchup for ", but as "this is a bad matchup for ". Maybe Cloud doesn't LOSE the MU (I'm certainly not well-versed enough to make any final judgments on this), but what other characters in the roster have as many tools for dealing with him as Bayo?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Also keep in mind that an offstage cloud with limit will also try to save it if he can with recover with his second jump, which makes him smash fodder if conditioned right (Down smash if he choose ledge and a spaced up/front smash if he goes for stage).

There is a problem that if the Cloud has limit and tries to save it. As you are charging DSmash, Cloud can just zooms in (he has the highest air speed in the game with Limit Break) and throw out an aerial or unleash a Limit Break on you. DSmash is actually very reactable, frame 20 at her foot and frame 25 on the Wicked Weave.
Here with some stuff for you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...smashbros_monthly_voted_tier_list_may/d3pd33t

Perhaps it's more useful to think of it not as "this is a good matchup for ", but as "this is a bad matchup for ". Maybe Cloud doesn't LOSE the MU (I'm certainly not well-versed enough to make any final judgments on this), but what other characters in the roster have as many tools for dealing with him as Bayo?

Not a lot, I feel. Cloud is just pretty damn good.
Bayonetta doesn't really have much tools against him either. Cloud is better at basically everything other than recovery and throws.
Honestly, Cloud is easily a losing MU in my eye.

 

[Flamegeyser]

His recovery doesn't have to be dsmash food if they're good, but nair and BA nair trades with it, except for we can afford to get hit and he can't. It's basically death. Also, Cloud has something like the 4th highest airspeed without limit, not the highest.

Yeah, Cloud is easily just as bad as Bayo pre-patch IMO. He's basically Mario with a sword and better killing power, but we'll see if he gets enough ******** to be deserving of a nerf in Namco's eyes.

 

[Gunblade789]

The absolute most frustrating thing for me is before if you over exteded a combo you could be punished. now I can be punished for LANDING a combo. the sdi multipler makes it so someone can get hit with WT and get below e. thats not right.
Looking at what ESAM said on twitter he expects her to drop like a rock.
I did watch nairo beat the crap out of gunblade with he rlast night but its really obvious that gunblade STILL didnt know how to di her combos.
last part of my rant why are people telling us that witch time is a reliable kill move?

I do know how to di Bayo combos but I play on that stream for entertainment not to try hard everygame.

 

[Matt11111]

I do know how to di Bayo combos but I play on that stream for entertainment not to try hard everygame.

Entertainment, you say? I play to win, and that's what my friends hate about my play style.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

His recovery doesn't have to be dsmash food if they're good, but nair and BA nair trades with it, except for we can afford to get hit and he can't.

Nair and BA Nair only works wonders when Cloud recovers low, check out the reddit link I posted. Cloud's Nair and Fair beats out Bayonetta's Nair (BA).

Also, Cloud has something like the 4th highest airspeed without limit, not the highest.

Eh wrong.
W/o limit, his air speed is 14th (to 19th).
With limit, his air speed is the highest in the game.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

any comments on pink fresh's play?

from what ive seen lately he seems to be incredibly good at connecting bayos semi reliable combos and mixing up a lot of her strings, he seems to be so good at mixing those that he is able to get away with so much stuff that people should easily be able to get away with simple DI.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

any comments on pink fresh's play?

from what ive seen lately he seems to be incredibly good at connecting bayos semi reliable combos and mixing up a lot of her strings, he seems to be so good at mixing those that he is able to get away with so much stuff that people should easily be able to get away with simple DI.

If anyone is giving me a slim chance of hope in Bayonetta, it is Pink Fresh.

I really hope he can stay consistent, but I think it is just the opponent being pretty bad at dealing with Bayonetta. It would be quite hard if Pink Fresh encounter a zoner or a campy character.

 

[Masque]

If anyone is giving me a slim chance of hope in Bayonetta, it is Pink Fresh.

I really hope he can stay consistent, but I think it is just the opponent being pretty bad at dealing with Bayonetta. It would be quite hard if Pink Fresh encounter a zoner or a campy character.

I'd say ikep over in Japan is also putting in a lot of work developing new, creative combos. The potential is still there!

 

[Ghidorah14]

There is a problem that if the Cloud has limit and tries to save it. As you are charging DSmash, Cloud can just zooms in (he has the highest air speed in the game with Limit Break) and throw out an aerial or unleash a Limit Break on you. DSmash is actually very reactable, frame 20 at her foot and frame 25 on the Wicked Weave.
Here with some stuff for you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...smashbros_monthly_voted_tier_list_may/d3pd33t

This is my problem with you, right here.

All I see from you is "they can just do this" or "but they can do that" followed by information you got from OTHER people. It's nothing but theory.

What about you!? What have you discovered about the cloud matchup? How does the matchup go, based on your experiance? Do you even play online? With other people?

Because when someone says things like:

Bayonetta doesn't really have much tools against him either.

I have to question just how much you've actually played the matchup. I mean, WTF are you even talking about with the downsmash thing? He can just "zoom in" and hit you? Um, thats why you time the attack to stomp him BEFORE he can hit you? That downsmash has a lot of range and cloud cant hit through it and get to you on one move.

Honestly, at this point, it seems like you've made it your personal life mission to downplay any possible advantage bayo could ever have. Players like you (assuming you actually play, cuz right now, I'm seriously questioning it) are holding actually bayonetta back by telling people we cant do this or that.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I have to question just how much you've actually played the matchup. I mean, WTF are you even talking about with the downsmash thing? He can just "zoom in" and hit you? Um, thats why you time the attack to stomp him BEFORE he can hit you? That downsmash has a lot of range and cloud cant hit through it and get to you on one move.

Another problem with that is DSmash's priority, Cloud can toss out an Uair and be immune to DSmash.

Honestly, at this point, it seems like you've made it your personal life mission to downplay any possible advantage bayo could ever have. Players like you (assuming you actually play, cuz right now, I'm seriously questioning it) are holding actually bayonetta back by telling people we cant do this or that.

It isn't really my life mission honestly, but I just nitpick a lot. Sorry to offend you by being overly negative.

I'd say ikep over in Japan is also putting in a lot of work developing new, creative combos. The potential is still there!

Cool, checking him out.

 

[Masque]

Cool, checking him out.

Here's just one example.

 

[Patriarachnid]

Another problem with that is DSmash's priority, Cloud can toss out an Uair and be immune to DSmash.

If he's recovering low, then he HAS to use his upB immediately after that Uair, or else he'll die. We can just stomp him then.

If he's recovering high, he shouldn't be using Uair, but if he's suffering a stroke and is using it anyway, read it and Bair him.

If he's using DJ Uair to jump back onto the stage, avoiding ledge entirely, then Dtilt/Utilt him and then start a Bayo combo.

See, the thing about Bayonetta, both in this instance and in general, is that, yes, you can theoretically counter *anything* she can do, but you can't counter *everything* she can do. Everything you can do to counter one of her options leaves you open to one of her others. She is a mix-up fighter, and she wins by constantly not doing the thing her opponent thinks she'll do.

In other words, the reason Bayonetta wears glasses is because she likes to read.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Are all bad MU imo (not unwinnable per say, just bad), might have missed some too.
The rest is even or somewhat good.
Wouldn't call it absolute **** myself, but many of these are very common in high level play so she is pretty much screwed for the most part.

I'd remove Marth and Corrin, add Meta Knight, and would be undecided on Sheik, but that is more or less my spread on "even or worse".
A lot are dead 0 tho.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

If he's recovering low, then he HAS to use his upB immediately after that Uair, or else he'll die. We can just stomp him then.

If he's recovering high, he shouldn't be using Uair, but if he's suffering a stroke and is using it anyway, read it and Bair him.

If he's using DJ Uair to jump back onto the stage, avoiding ledge entirely, then Dtilt him and then start a Bayo combo.

I think you should read this first.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...smashbros_monthly_voted_tier_list_may/d3pd33t
Cloud recovering high is pretty safe overall and Bayonetta doesn't really have a semi spike.

See, the thing about Bayonetta, both in this instance and in general, is that, yes, you can theoretically counter *anything* she can do, but you can't counter *everything* she can do. Everything you can do to counter one of her options leaves you open to one of her others. She is a mix-up fighter, and she wins by constantly not doing the thing her opponent thinks she'll do.

Yeah, but that only push her to be mid tier. Being high tier means you can easily cover many options and your options are hard to counter. Mixing up is essential in high level play so she isn't very special.
Her mix up option is also a bit limited, she has more tools than low tiers but she is lacking compared to high tier. Notably, it is because she lacks a reliable option against shield and doesn't have much surprise options outside of Witch Time, which needs to be used sparingly.

EDIT:

I'd remove Marth and Corrin, add Meta Knight, and would be undecided on Sheik, but that is more or less my spread on "even or worse".
A lot are dead 0 tho.

I guess I overrated Marth a bit, but Corrin has quite a lot of tools like Neutral B which go through BC. Not a good MU but I will take you word for it.
Mind tell me more about MK vs Bayo MU? Don't know much about it.
Sheik can camp her out and can rush her down. Sheik while nerfed retain great mobility, framedata, combos, and tools like needle and bouncing fish. 1.1.5 Sheik and Bayonetta is only a 55:45 in Bayo's flavor, but I feel it is a 40:60 in 1.1.6.

 

[Patriarachnid]

Yeah, but that only push her to be mid tier. Being high tier means you can easily cover many options and your options are hard to counter. Mixing up is essential in high level play so she isn't very special.
Her mix up option is also a bit limited, she has more tools than low tiers but she is lacking compared to high tier. Notably, it is because she lacks a reliable option against shield and doesn't have much surprise options outside of Witch Time, which needs to be used sparingly.

I agree she's mid-tier, disagree that she has no options. It's just that all her options were dumped into her combos rather than her neutral game.

I mean, we all know Bayonetta has a dumpster-tier neutral. But show me another character that can get 85% off of one neutral win and maybe 2 reads.

Here's just one example.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I agree she's mid-tier, disagree that she has no options. It's just that all her options were dumped into her combos rather than her neutral game.

I mean, we all know Bayonetta has a dumpster-tier neutral. But show me another character that can get 85% off of one neutral win and maybe 2 reads.

It isn't that she has no options, it is that they are pretty bad.
I don't think that combo is very consistent and it is hard to get a Witch Time. Gonna go test it now.
And I don't think Bayonetta gets 85% in a single combo a lot.