Patch 1.16 Discussion - "The Witch Hunt is over"

[Flamegeyser]

What a load of crap. Just because there is now counter play to her frame 4 disjointed reversal doesnt mean that she is irrelevant or even that she doesnt have good punishes.

Now you guys just have to practice doing stuff that isnt free or obvious and you clearly dont want to do that.

And wait a minute, your telling me that you have to predict stuff in neutral to have success?!?!?! Oh no, its like we are playing a competitive fighting game! Now i have to learn Footsies!!

Holy salt, batman! Come on dude, only one of the people you quoted even said what you're trying to say. Keep your personal salt out of other peoples meals, we don't wanna taste that. The meta will evolve, people who actually loved the character will stay, and she'll do well with the people who give her the time and effort.

So on to the meta discussion (in an effort to actually contribute lol) RAR bair, despite being somewhat predictable, is an excellent option. It's got too much range to be shield grabbed, and has small enough landing lag to be able to mixup with a grab or anything else. Nair is, as always, mostly safe on shield. At 0-10% or so, it also combos into dtilt if you're approaching with it. It's excellent disjoint and speed makes it great for both OOS and air-to-air exchanges. Nair and WTw are pretty much death sentences against a lot of characters, and we have the recovery to allow us to go super deep.

Now that we've lost some of our main comboing tools, let's look back on the underused utilt. It's got great damage, an excellent angle on both of it's hitboxes, and works even as an anti-air. Fair1->uair is also true almost entirely regardless of DI, although it's somewhat difficult to pull off. Uair->sourspot bair links a few times in a row, but is even harder to pull off than fair1->uair. Combos are harder now guys, but damned if they aren't some MvC **** when we get them right.

 

[Lorde]

uair>stuff combos are super easy, though. the only difficult thing is actually hitting with the uair since its range isn't great (but rar helps with that)

bayonetta's edgeguarding game is basically easy mode. just jump near the ledge and use BA nair/FF BA nair and most characters can't deal with its constant hitbox while recovering. bayo's recovery is so good that we can basically do whatever we want offstage while attempting to edgeguard.

her normals actually combo together very well and many characters would kill for the ability for their normals to combo like hers do, not to mention how her damage output is lol. like ftilt is basically a free 15%

 

[Ghidorah14]

I've found myself using bullet climax and and jab a lot more.

Jab does a consistent 19-21%, and bullet climax, I've found, can be used to basically control the space above an enemy. People are so afraid to jump, and unless they manage to close the gap in between endlag, they're kinda stuck.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

bayonetta's edgeguarding game is basically easy mode. just jump near the ledge and use BA nair/FF BA nair and most characters can't deal with its constant hitbox while recovering. bayo's recovery is so good that we can basically do whatever we want offstage while attempting to edgeguard.

That only works on characters who are already easy to edgeguarding to begin with, not to mention BA Nair is kinda weak.
It be better to go for bair, dair, or bullet climax to edgeguard, but her limited air speed and very high fall speed does hold her back.

 

[AkiraGr]

Zero made an analysis about Bayonetta... This guy is funny. I am still in the lab with my Bayonetta, this guy is the only reason I keep playing to I can kick his behind with a nerfed Bayonetta.

Yes I am that pissed with the so called analysis that some people here are calling it in deep. A 3 minute video telling absolutely nothing but passing a narrative that she is now balanced now that her combos are removed...

I will post my videos in the last tournament that I took 6th place with my Bayo when I couldn't pass the top 16 before.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Zero made an analysis about Bayonetta... This guy is funny. I am still in the lab with my Bayonetta, this guy is the only reason I keep playing to I can kick his behind with a nerfed Bayonetta.

Yes I am that pissed with the so called analysis that some people here are calling it in deep. A 3 minute video telling absolutely nothing but passing a narrative that she is now balanced now that her combos are removed...

I will post my videos in the last tournament that I took 6th place with my Bayo when I couldn't pass the top 16 before.

I think it will be his last video on Bayonetta. He doesn't seem to be very interested in her and likely won't ever be.
And here I thought at Bayonetta's announcement trailer ZeRo was gonna do crazy stuff with her, then all he did was made a few videos about her.

 

[AkiraGr]

I think it will be his last video on Bayonetta. He doesn't seem to be very interested in her and likely won't ever be.
And here I thought at Bayonetta's announcement trailer ZeRo was gonna do crazy stuff with her, then all he did was made a few videos about her.

Zero is not a flaboyant player. He doesn't play to give spectacle to the audience and in matter of fact he is a very bad player in normal fighting games. I respect his play to win attitude but he could never play Bayonetta. He cannot do input commands even if his life is depend on it. On his video about Ryu I did not see him play the character at all.

His is playing the character that has more options for stock kills and more safe to zone and neutral players on the game which are Sheik and Diddy.

Bayonetta was before the nerf his living nightmare. After the nerf he can sleep easy because the way he plays Bayonetta was his nemesis.

I do not think he is a very good player at fighting games in general as I saw him play Pokken with Nairo and I was laughing with his performance.

Ally proved that ZeRo is a defense hog trying to get the dthrow>Upair at every opportunity, I eally do not like his play style BUT I respect him for doing it well.

Bayonetta was never for the faint of heart.

 

[Xephilon]

SoccerStar9001 Dude, I know you're supposed to be the negative guy here but some of things you're saying are more salt induced than anything (No offense, just an opinion). You're train of thought is "If the opponent can SDI decently, Bayo can never ever combo or use WT" when that's not true. I said that the guy I play knows how to SDI, to the point that he used to get out of pre-patch WT2. I was still winning, still combo-ing and when he got out of WT I just try to jump Nair/Fair him if he did it too late or dABK to safety if I feel I won't be able to hit. Bayo is now more of a combo mix up character which, to be honest, I enjoy more now than flowchart pre-patch Bayo.

Also guys not sure if you've seen this but:

At first they aren't anything to special but they get way better halfway and while they can be SDI-ed at some points it might be a start to get more creative and have more mix ups/combos.

P.S. Fair 1 -> Uair at the start is dodgeable but they'll have end lag and can be punish with Dtilt or WT. Only way to escape is to jump out, which can be hit with ABK.

 

[Flamegeyser]

So someone on the Bayo discord mentioned that Cloud can uair out of fair1->uair, which just doesn't seem right, it's a true combo after all. I can't really test it though myself, would anyone mind trying to do so? I still think that Cloud isn't that bad of a matchup, but if he can escape this with ease it'd limit our options slightly.

On another note, nair combos into fair1 at low%s, AKA 0%-50% or so.

 

[Ghidorah14]

That only works on characters who are already easy to edgeguarding to begin with, not to mention BA Nair is kinda weak.
It be better to go for bair, dair, or bullet climax to edgeguard, but her limited air speed and very high fall speed does hold her back.

You're kidding, right? BA nair flatout beats airdodges, and with a lot of characters, all you need is that "weak" hit to gimp them.

With BA nair, you literally turn into a lingering hitbox off-stage, and unlike dair, it's super safe and easy to recover from.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You're kidding, right? BA nair flatout beats airdodges, and with a lot of characters, all you need is that "weak" hit to gimp them.

With BA nair, you literally turn into a lingering hitbox off-stage, and unlike dair, it's super safe and easy to recover from.

Like I said, it only works on characters who are already easy to edgeguard.
BA Nair lingers longer than an air dodge but if the opponent add a jump before the airdodge they're safe.
Some character's recovery is either super fast and or multihit, making them pretty hard to edgeguard with this tactic. Falcon is obviously easy for Bayonetta to edgeguard, but he is easy to edgeguard for pretty much everyone.

Against character who can still recover from a BA Nair and has a reliable recovery, bair, dair, or Bullet Climax is required. But her low air speed and high fall speed limit her options off stage even if she has a great recovery.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Again, we can go super low, so BA nair can be done lower than most characters can afford and still allow us to make it back. If we take their jump, it's pretty much GG.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Again, we can go super low, so BA nair can be done lower than most characters can afford and still allow us to make it back. If we take their jump, it's pretty much GG.

Like I said, it is against character who are easy to edgeguard for everyone.
Bayonetta can go super low, but not many character can recover from super low and they are bound to come up.
Even if Mario can't go super low like Bayonetta, he can still edgeguard them by just wait for them to recover to a point where he can edgeguard them.

Bayonetta has a pretty good edgeguarding game but BA Nair really only works on character with weak recovery in the first place. Bair, Dair, and Bullet Climax are better for edgeguarding as they are more powerful and more rewarding.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree.

Bullet Climax is for mid-high recovery, and it because it has a linear line of fire, its super easy to predict and airdodge, and if you go for BC and fail, you've basically lost you chance to edgeguard them, as by that point you'll usually have very little time to attempt a followup.

With bair, you pretty much get 1 shot, maybe two (which may require you to burn a jump). Predictable and easy to airdodge.

Dair is just a much riskier version of BA nair, as being able to recover from it is stage dependent.

I honestly dont know why you are so skeptical of BA nair. It works like a charm. Whats this "only works on etc." nonsense coming from? It works on anyone who needs a jump to recover, which is A LOT of the cast.

 

[Masque]

I honestly dont know why you are so skeptical of BA nair. It works like a charm. Whats this "only works on etc." nonsense coming from? It works on anyone who needs a jump to recover, which is A LOT of the cast.

Yeah, the only characters I've noticed who are harder to edgeguard with Nair alone are ZSS, Sheik, and Diddy.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Yeah, BA nair is my go-to. I pretty much just don't do it if it's becoming predictable and easy to dodge. Dair is so easy to see coming, and bair is pretty easy to airdodge since you're going down and they're coming up. The active hitbox of BA nair also allows for a WTw to hit after it's done, which if it hits someone who's lost their double jump, is again GG.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Offstage Uncharged Bullet Climax to force airdodges, then Nair or Witch Twist to push them further.
Works excellently specially if the opponent already used the jump (to survive longer or similar).

 

[Xephilon]

leesinger Even though the Mac had horrible DI, this set was just beautiful.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Horrible DI was the least of that mac's mistakes.

Roll roll roll, 3 fsmashes in a row, etc. Straight outta For Glory.

 

[leesinger]

leesinger Even though the Mac had horrible DI, this set was just beautiful.

Lol. Thanks I didnt even know they posted these matches. Ghidorah14 is right about the mac tho. He was a newer player who didnt really play the game competetively so dont get too impressed, lol. Unfortunately I had like 3 SD's in my other games at this tourney and had a pretty bad finishing overall. If you can take away anything from this video tho, its that Bayo is still an aerial monster and completely shuts down a character like lil mac if she can get him into the air.

 

[Dark_Ky]

Bayo vs a competent Fox/Cloud player:

seriously.. Bayo got away with so much. people who refused to learn the matchup wont STILL lab her for a few minutes to get the DI/SDI donw. they would rather lose to her in tournament lol

people actually believe that her combo/kill game is still alive lol
guess we dont have to worry xD

 

[blackghost]

if no one is going to learn what or how to use di properly nerfs don't matter. but even the commentators and obviously the cloud dont know after 4 months what to do when they get caught. also they let her land for free when shes helpless. abk>witch twist> abk>wt2 isnt real and wt2 should NEVER fully connenct.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Bayo vs a competent Fox/Cloud player:

seriously.. Bayo got away with so much. people who refused to learn the matchup wont STILL lab her for a few minutes to get the DI/SDI donw. they would rather lose to her in tournament lol

people actually believe that her combo/kill game is still alive lol
guess we dont have to worry xD

"Who would've prepared for the bayonetta matchup after the nerf?"
"Obviously just being carried by bayonetta."
- the commentators

I dont want to live on this planet anymore.

Seriously, **** THESE PEOPLE.

 

[Xephilon]

"Who would've prepared for the bayonetta matchup after the nerf?"
"Obviously just being carried by bayonetta."
- the commentators

I dont want to live on this planet anymore.

Seriously, **** THESE PEOPLE.

I think that was a joke...At least, I hope it was.

 

[DE235]

At ignition #33 there was a Bayo player named Bushi and he did some pretty amazing stuff with mix ups and reads. You should check it out here: https://www.twitch.tv/unrivaledtournaments
Also Pinkfresh has adapted to this new play style very well but Diddy looks like a really hard match up still.

 

[Xephilon]

I'll check out that Bushi player tomorrow. I need to keep looking for ways to improve my Bayo.

Also, I don't know about you guys but the more I play with the new dABK, the more annoyed I get with it. It went from a combo starter/Projectile punisher to...a move that deals 6% and get nothing out of it. I mean, how did the balance team look at this move after changing it and said "This is fine, completely balanced and perfect for a combo fighter like Bayo, add that to all the other nerfs were gonna give her"

I know its a little late to complain about this but I just never got to do it and lately its just been bugging the living s*** out of me when fighting against projectile users or just hitting it in general.

 

[deepseadiva]

Diddy is BS. Bananas nullifying Heel Slide is not insignificant, he's short enough to dodge Climax, and Monkey Flip is an extra option against Witch Time.

Ick

 

[Masque]

Diddy is BS. Bananas nullifying Heel Slide is not insignificant, he's short enough to dodge Climax, and Monkey Flip is an extra option against Witch Time.

Ick

Totally agreed. He's easily one of the most frustrating matchups for me as Bae—and for all the other characters I play, honestly.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Diddy is a whole 'nother level of stupid. I swear, I'm just gonna start SDing vs diddy, because his banana just shuts down anything we do on the ground, including bullet arts.

 

[Purpledebo]

Diddy is a whole 'nother level of stupid. I swear, I'm just gonna start SDing vs diddy, because his banana just shuts down anything we do on the ground, including bullet arts.

interesting to know..

 

[Dre89]

I'll check out that Bushi player tomorrow. I need to keep looking for ways to improve my Bayo.

Also, I don't know about you guys but the more I play with the new dABK, the more annoyed I get with it. It went from a combo starter/Projectile punisher to...a move that deals 6% and get nothing out of it. I mean, how did the balance team look at this move after changing it and said "This is fine, completely balanced and perfect for a combo fighter like Bayo, add that to all the other nerfs were gonna give her"

I know its a little late to complain about this but I just never got to do it and lately its just been bugging the living s*** out of me when fighting against projectile users or just hitting it in general.

If Bayo had been released in this state, people wouldn't be complaining about DABK. Instead they'd think it's cool that Bayo has a second aerial sideb that gives her an additional mobility option and allows her to threaten from an angle that most characters can't.

 

[Xephilon]

There's no threat to it, it only deals 6%, leads to no follow ups and deals less damage when it stales. It doesn't go with the advertised "Combo character" and would feel underpowered/underwhelming compared to the rest of her kit. Sheik's bouncing fish deals double the damage and has more KB ffs.

Yeah the Diddy MU is pretty dumb and let alone Diddy's mobility with wave bouncing pop gun cancel and such. He's annoying as deal with but at least he has no combo breaking options.

 

[DE235]

I also found footage of ikep's Bayo fighting a DK and Sheik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RivCdbzS3w4

Edit: And here is Ash vs Charizard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_YZYnIiS2A

Edit: ikep vs Ken(sonic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omi02Wmp84c

 

[Dre89]

There's no threat to it, it only deals 6%, leads to no follow ups and deals less damage when it stales. It doesn't go with the advertised "Combo character" and would feel underpowered/underwhelming compared to the rest of her kit. Sheik's bouncing fish deals double the damage and has more KB ffs.

Yeah the Diddy MU is pretty dumb and let alone Diddy's mobility with wave bouncing pop gun cancel and such. He's annoying as deal with but at least he has no combo breaking options.

Point is, if she had been released without the downward version no one would be complaining. It's a free move.

It's not threatening in the sense that it's high reward. But the opponent has to respect that you can attack them from that angle, because if they don't they lose positional advantage by getting hit.

 

[Xephilon]

But that also means if dABK was always like that, there probably wouldn't be any nerfs to her kit at all since most of her outcrys about 0-deaths came from dABK combos.

 

[deepseadiva]

There's no threat to it, it only deals 6%, leads to no follow ups and deals less damage when it stales. It doesn't go with the advertised "Combo character" and would feel underpowered/underwhelming compared to the rest of her kit. Sheik's bouncing fish deals double the damage and has more KB ffs.

You are spoiled.

It still offers an angle of attack she otherwise wouldn't have. It's still safe and free on shield. I miss it too, but it's June 2016 now, please join us.

Diddy is a whole 'nother level of stupid. I swear, I'm just gonna start SDing vs diddy, because his banana just shuts down anything we do on the ground, including bullet arts.

Still VERY early to forfeit the matchup (though I know we're just joking around). Let's lab, I'm sure we have some discoveries to make - I haven't seen any widespread banana Bayonetta combos for one.

 

[Flamegeyser]

To be fair who doesn't Diddy **** on, despite his nerfs he's still easily top 5 IMO. I wonder if utilt beats out monkey flip's options.

 

[Xephilon]

You are spoiled.

It still offers an angle of attack she otherwise wouldn't have. It's still safe and free on shield. I miss it too, but it's June 2016 now, please join us.

I'm not spoiled >_> It's just that lately I've been getting annoyed that when I hit someone with it, it doesn't provide much since there's no follow up, barely get any stage control and while it is safe on shield, if you use it twice you'll have landing lag which doesn't help its case. If it hit for 10-12% then I'd be more than satisfied but meh...

And don't worry, I have joined and I've been practicing with her, I want to reach Pink Fresh's level. Yo, his last showing in Xanadu was just beautiful, he had everything on point. The only person he lost to was a Diddy player, which we all know, it's probably Bayo's worst MU.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm not spoiled >_> It's just that lately I've been getting annoyed that when I hit someone with it, it doesn't provide much since there's no follow up, barely get any stage control and while it is safe on shield, if you use it twice you'll have landing lag which doesn't help its case. If it hit for 10-12% then I'd be more than satisfied but meh...

And don't worry, I have joined and I've been practicing with her, I want to reach Pink Fresh's level. Yo, his last showing in Xanadu was just beautiful, he had everything on point. The only person he lost to was a Diddy player, which we all know, it's probably Bayo's worst MU.

More than anything the Dive Kick lost stage control power, like you said. Even on hit, that bounce back up into the air is precious time lost- you have to get back down to the ground first before you can even start chasing them. Maybe there's a combo still there though. Follow up with ABK at certain percents? Fair123 against horrible DI choices? Bullet Climax? Fair1 Bullet Arts (LOL)? I swear we can get something else, even if it's minimal.

Speaking of Xanadu, this got uploaded like 20 mins ago:

The sequence at 5:55 was GORGEOUS.

Hey Diddy doesn't look that bad here haha

 

[Patriarachnid]

More than anything the Dive Kick lost stage control power, like you said. Even on hit, that bounce back up into the air is precious time lost- you have to get back down to the ground first before you can even start chasing them. Maybe there's a combo still there though. Follow up with ABK at certain percents? Fair123 against horrible DI choices? Bullet Climax? Fair1 Bullet Arts (LOL)? I swear we can get something else, even if it's minimal.

Speaking of Xanadu, this got uploaded like 20 mins ago:

The sequence at 5:55 was GORGEOUS.

Hey Diddy doesn't look that bad here haha

3:25
"So many Bayonettas were just abusing the more broken mechanics of her, that the normal good stuff she has was kind of overlooked"
Couldn't agree more. This is why I'm actually glad the dABK got nerfed; you're now incentivized to explore her full kit, rather than just fish for dABK all the time.

(That said, I think dABK should be retouched so that it's useful, but not overcentralizing like it was before. The more combo mixups/options Bayonetta has, the better.)