Data Palutena's Match Ups - NEW FORMAT: ALL CHARACTER DISCUSSION

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Honestly I'm curious to what Aerolink's thoughts are in that set vs Diddy. Aerolink's movement and mastery of Palutena looked better than ever, but he had trouble getting setups for those awesome kills, and in general got edged out. It looks to me that the customs definitely do help, such as allowing him an easier (and many times almost free, or at least unpunished) recovery back to the stage to neutral when launched off, and giving him more mixups.

But (at least in the case where you aren't able to get a very early kill with lightweight) it doesn't look like customs actually give her an *enormous* advantage. I feel like Aerolink would still perform almost the same without customs (judging from previous games against Denti), though I could be entirely wrong (I think I do recall Denti's diddy 2 stocking or almost 2 stocking Aerolink's palutena a few times, and that doesn't happen anymore with customs).

Is Denti just getting better too? Maybe Aerolink wasn't playing well?

Regardless, Aerolink's recent games are so fast paced epic hype ****. (Honestly it's still amazing looking back at the older games with him using default Palutena and how good his movement is. I still study those repeatedly). It's so fun to watch, I can't even fathom being able to understand the game at that level. A hallehooha or two would have completely changed the set, just too bad he didn't get any this time.

Anyway, on another note have you guys seen Ryo fight Diddies? I don't think he's on Aerolink's level. Probably a step down, but not a huge one. He might be slightly better at a couple aspects. He actually would play Ike and then counterpick Diddy with Palutena and succeed.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I think it's worth not bothering trying to throw bananas back at Diddy. Pal's height is a problem.
Pal's aerials are awesome, but I think Diddy's fair beats Pal's if they clash. Might be a hitbox thing but I think Diddy has the better properties to it.

 

[Zediwonder]

I'd advise a sub, it's definitely not an unplayable match up but it's much easier to beat Diddy playing a proper zoning character or at least a character with a useful range attack, explosive flame and autoreticle simply aren't fast enough though they are capable of stopping Diddy's side special.

I have a more 50:50 win rate when I play Toon Link against Diddy simply because It's easier to deal with him with a lot of ranged attacks.

 

[TastyCarcass]

What is it specifically about Diddy that makes him a bad matchup? It's hard to pinpoint anything other than Pal's neutral bs are all fairly terrible against him. Bananas vs Pal's height? I think Pal can still get some good stage control against him.

I think it's only worth taking a sub if your character is absolutely countered by your opponent's. I'm not entirely sure if that's the case.

 

[Zediwonder]

What is it specifically about Diddy that makes him a bad matchup? It's hard to pinpoint anything other than Pal's neutral bs are all fairly terrible against him. Bananas vs Pal's height? I think Pal can still get some good stage control against him.

I think it's only worth taking a sub if your character is absolutely countered by your opponent's. I'm not entirely sure if that's the case.

It's definitely not a complete counter by Diddy I'll say that much. Nair is really good against him and he's one of the easier characters to hit while recovering off stage with fair. I'd agree that height is really the toughest challenge, good luck hitting Diddy with a picked up banana it's more than likely going to miss, Diddy can also avoid some of Palu's attacks simply by ducking which is also annoying but not unstoppable.

I'd only recommend a sub if you already have one, the match up is unfavorable but if you're more skilled than your opponent you'll win, Diddy ain't that good, and against equally skilled opponents you're more likely to lose but it's certainly not impossible if you're careful and avoid smashing as much as possible, mistakes against Diddy can be costly but Palutena CAN beat him.

 

[deepseadiva]

What is it specifically about Diddy that makes him a bad matchup?

Maybe this is obvious but... the same reason Diddy is a bad matchup for basically everyone: dthrow->uair being a guaranteed combo. That's a 30% punish basically throughout the stock, and then a kill throw at 100%. =(

A character has to have something absolutely exceptional to make up for that. Default Palutena doesn't really. Custom Palutena definitely does though! :D

 

[Zediwonder]

People really overestimate Diddy's "hoo hah" as it's called. Yeah it can be used early for a quick 30% but after that you can DI away forever, even the uair kill at 100% is DIable if you go up and away and then jump as soon as possible to avoid the second uair.

The trick is to not air dodge, that's generally the natural thing to do but airdodging is what is going to get you killed by Hoo hah if you're already DIing correctly.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Yea the throw uair string is strong but it's not guaranteed combo.

Also diddy's throws kill closer to 140% not 100%

On a random note, you guys may know Robin's backthrow is decently strong. But did you guys know that it kills at 80% without even needing a lot of rage? (The base knockback is really high. The 80% is if you do it right at the edge of the stage).

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

People really overestimate Diddy's "hoo hah" as it's called. Yeah it can be used early for a quick 30% but after that you can DI away forever, even the uair kill at 100% is DIable if you go up and away and then jump as soon as possible to avoid the second uair.

The trick is to not air dodge, that's generally the natural thing to do but airdodging is what is going to get you killed by Hoo hah if you're already DIing correctly.

U-throw>U-air is guaranteed around 60-75% on most characters and it kills at that % too. D-throw combos are just for racking up damage, U-throw is what you really should be worrying about.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Honestly I'm curious to what Aerolink's thoughts are in that set vs Diddy. Aerolink's movement and mastery of Palutena looked better than ever, but he had trouble getting setups for those awesome kills, and in general got edged out. It looks to me that the customs definitely do help, such as allowing him an easier (and many times almost free, or at least unpunished) recovery back to the stage to neutral when launched off, and giving him more mixups.

But (at least in the case where you aren't able to get a very early kill with lightweight) it doesn't look like customs actually give her an *enormous* advantage. I feel like Aerolink would still perform almost the same without customs (judging from previous games against Denti), though I could be entirely wrong (I think I do recall Denti's diddy 2 stocking or almost 2 stocking Aerolink's palutena a few times, and that doesn't happen anymore with customs).

Is Denti just getting better too? Maybe Aerolink wasn't playing well?

Regardless, Aerolink's recent games are so fast paced epic hype ****. (Honestly it's still amazing looking back at the older games with him using default Palutena and how good his movement is. I still study those repeatedly). It's so fun to watch, I can't even fathom being able to understand the game at that level. A hallehooha or two would have completely changed the set, just too bad he didn't get any this time.

Anyway, on another note have you guys seen Ryo fight Diddies? I don't think he's on Aerolink's level. Probably a step down, but not a huge one. He might be slightly better at a couple aspects. He actually would play Ike and then counterpick Diddy with Palutena and succeed.

Vs. Diddy I feel like I really need to know how the player plays for me to establish my punish game off of reads. With my matches vs. Delbuster and Whispy I think I got nervous and that affected my performance, but vs. Denti I feel comfortable playing because I know how he plays with Diddy even if I still lose. I perform my best when I'm feeling really confident and trust in the plays I make. Especially towards the end of the set vs. Delbuster when I was down, I wasn't in the "confident" zone, and I can tell looking over the games by the decisions I made, like for example, going for dthrow -> dair and getting punished for missing by eating an upair and dying off the top; instead, I could have simply upair'd after the dthrow and that might have gotten me the KO. Even though I didn't get to play ZeRo in tournament, I did get to play him in friendlies, and I have to say it's pretty insane how far ahead he is of every other player. He makes the next best of players look like your average player; it's really mind-blowing to me. I can't even begin to think how I would go about countering his gameplay; He plays really fast and aggressive.

Also, Denti has definitely been improving as well as myself too. It's going to take me a while more to eventually take sets off of him with my custom Palutena, but I know I can do it. I think there is more to develop with Palutena in Lightweight form, and honestly I think that is going to be the key to pushing this character's metagame further (as well as her SuperSpeed mixups and Jump Glide movements/crossups). I just noticed while practicing with my partner in doubles how effective I can get KOs in Lightweight form off of my partner's throws or hits, or even sneaking in an upair chase near the ceiling for an early KO.

I've messed around a lot with her other custom setups, and I still believe her 1322 setup to be the best overall; She has the all her mobility options at her disposal and Auto Reticle fits perfectly to pester players that try to space for and bait out her approaches. It's like imagine if Sonic had a projectile that he can sit back and throw at you and then proceed to play his speed game when you've started to approach again. Explosive Flame would be better if it had less start-up (even though the last hit is unblockable, it can be dodged out of shield before it connects), but Auto Reticle has more range for poking and less start-up. Also, I have ground lock setups off of Auto Reticle; I've yet to pull it off in tournament, but I'm working on it!

/my2rupees

 

[Djent]

G-g-ground...lock...setups? I mean I knew about the forced stand, but what sorcery is this?

@ AeroLink_the_SoulMaster please do tell how they work. It'd certainly change my mind about Explosive Flame's superiority.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

G-g-ground...lock...setups? I mean I knew about the forced stand, but what sorcery is this?

@ AeroLink_the_SoulMaster please do tell how they work. It'd certainly change my mind about Explosive Flame's superiority.

Oh, sorry to get your hopes up. It's just the lock on the ground or on a platform to upsmash. Fsmash would be optimal if I can time the 2 frame window on the getup.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Vs. Diddy I feel like I really need to know how the player plays for me to establish my punish game off of reads. With my matches vs. Delbuster and Whispy I think I got nervous and that affected my performance, but vs. Denti I feel comfortable playing because I know how he plays with Diddy even if I still lose. I perform my best when I'm feeling really confident and trust in the plays I make. Especially towards the end of the set vs. Delbuster when I was down, I wasn't in the "confident" zone, and I can tell looking over the games by the decisions I made, like for example, going for dthrow -> dair and getting punished for missing by eating an upair and dying off the top; instead, I could have simply upair'd after the dthrow and that might have gotten me the KO. Even though I didn't get to play ZeRo in tournament, I did get to play him in friendlies, and I have to say it's pretty insane how far ahead he is of every other player. He makes the next best of players look like your average player; it's really mind-blowing to me. I can't even begin to think how I would go about countering his gameplay; He plays really fast and aggressive.

Also, Denti has definitely been improving as well as myself too. It's going to take me a while more to eventually take sets off of him with my custom Palutena, but I know I can do it. I think there is more to develop with Palutena in Lightweight form, and honestly I think that is going to be the key to pushing this character's metagame further (as well as her SuperSpeed mixups and Jump Glide movements/crossups). I just noticed while practicing with my partner in doubles how effective I can get KOs in Lightweight form off of my partner's throws or hits, or even sneaking in an upair chase near the ceiling for an early KO.

I've messed around a lot with her other custom setups, and I still believe her 1322 setup to be the best overall; She has the all her mobility options at her disposal and Auto Reticle fits perfectly to pester players that try to space for and bait out her approaches. It's like imagine if Sonic had a projectile that he can sit back and throw at you and then proceed to play his speed game when you've started to approach again. Explosive Flame would be better if it had less start-up (even though the last hit is unblockable, it can be dodged out of shield before it connects), but Auto Reticle has more range for poking and less start-up. Also, I have ground lock setups off of Auto Reticle; I've yet to pull it off in tournament, but I'm working on it!

/my2rupees

Wow, thanks a lot for the indepth insight! Since you are the one putting so much time into Palutena and spearheading her development I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts as always.

On a sort of random tangent, speaking of ZeRo being so much ahead of everyone else -- I would actually agree, if not for one exception. I don't know if you're familiar with him or watched his play, but Fow is an amazing Ness player who went down to the very last stock against ZeRo at a previous DVDA tournament, barely losing 2-3. I know Fow isn't a super consistent player though; he was close but didn't make it into Apex Top 16, and his emotions/tiredness seems like one of his weaknesses. But when he's in a good mood and focused and playing well, I feel like he's the only one right now that can really challenge ZeRo (Nairo's done well vs ZeRo in some individual games of certain sets but not shown consistency I don't think).

Watching Fow fight ZeRo is really mindblowing (especially because Fow isn't making tournaments a priority; he focuses on his stream and community he built, meaning almost all of his smash practice goes towards viewer games and he's still so good). Maybe you or others don't feel the same way (especially since you're the pro here and see things in a very different way) but I thought I should mention it if people aren't familiar or are curious. Maybe there's something we can learn from Fow that's letting him go toe to toe with ZeRo? I do feel that Fow is amazing at reading his opponents and adapting. He gets out of the most terrible of situations in such impressive ways and knows exactly what to do to make a comeback happen, even if he has some weaker matchups stopping him from being a top player.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Wow, thanks a lot for the indepth insight! Since you are the one putting so much time into Palutena and spearheading her development I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts as always.

On a sort of random tangent, speaking of ZeRo being so much ahead of everyone else -- I would actually agree, if not for one exception. I don't know if you're familiar with him or watched his play, but Fow is an amazing Ness player who went down to the very last stock against ZeRo at a previous DVDA tournament, barely losing 2-3. I know Fow isn't a super consistent player though; he was close but didn't make it into Apex Top 16, and his emotions/tiredness seems like one of his weaknesses. But when he's in a good mood and focused and playing well, I feel like he's the only one right now that can really challenge ZeRo (Nairo's done well vs ZeRo in some individual games of certain sets but not shown consistency I don't think).

Watching Fow fight ZeRo is really mindblowing (especially because Fow isn't making tournaments a priority; he focuses on his stream and community he built, meaning almost all of his smash practice goes towards viewer games and he's still so good). Maybe you or others don't feel the same way (especially since you're the pro here and see things in a very different way) but I thought I should mention it if people aren't familiar or are curious. Maybe there's something we can learn from Fow that's letting him go toe to toe with ZeRo? I do feel that Fow is amazing at reading his opponents and adapting. He gets out of the most terrible of situations in such impressive ways and knows exactly what to do to make a comeback happen, even if he has some weaker matchups stopping him from being a top player.

Interesting... I am aware of FOW as a player, but I didn't know about his set vs. ZeRo. I watched his matches at the latest DVDA, and even though he didn't get to play ZeRo, he did beat Mew2King before losing to Tyrant to take 3rd. He had to go through the Diddy gauntlet to win the tourney, lol. But yeah, what that says is that Diddy Kong is one of the most important MUs to get down, especially for Palutena. I've been brainstorming some ideas on some of Diddy's options in certain situations after watching my sets vs. Denti and Delbuster.

 

[E.Lopez]

Wow, thanks a lot for the indepth insight! Since you are the one putting so much time into Palutena and spearheading her development I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts as always.

On a sort of random tangent, speaking of ZeRo being so much ahead of everyone else -- I would actually agree, if not for one exception. I don't know if you're familiar with him or watched his play, but Fow is an amazing Ness player who went down to the very last stock against ZeRo at a previous DVDA tournament, barely losing 2-3. I know Fow isn't a super consistent player though; he was close but didn't make it into Apex Top 16, and his emotions/tiredness seems like one of his weaknesses. But when he's in a good mood and focused and playing well, I feel like he's the only one right now that can really challenge ZeRo (Nairo's done well vs ZeRo in some individual games of certain sets but not shown consistency I don't think).

Watching Fow fight ZeRo is really mindblowing (especially because Fow isn't making tournaments a priority; he focuses on his stream and community he built, meaning almost all of his smash practice goes towards viewer games and he's still so good). Maybe you or others don't feel the same way (especially since you're the pro here and see things in a very different way) but I thought I should mention it if people aren't familiar or are curious. Maybe there's something we can learn from Fow that's letting him go toe to toe with ZeRo? I do feel that Fow is amazing at reading his opponents and adapting. He gets out of the most terrible of situations in such impressive ways and knows exactly what to do to make a comeback happen, even if he has some weaker matchups stopping him from being a top player.

I think this is the set you were talking about:

DVDA #5 Grand final FOW (Ness) vs ZeRo (Diddy Kong) Super Smash Bros. Tournament for Wii-U
https://youtu.be/e_-4bbTloik

It's very impressive.

 

[Zediwonder]

I think it's worth not bothering trying to throw bananas back at Diddy. Pal's height is a problem.
Pal's aerials are awesome, but I think Diddy's fair beats Pal's if they clash. Might be a hitbox thing but I think Diddy has the better properties to it.

I think I should add onto this, yeah Palutena is more than likely going to miss but you don't want Diddy to have the banana, if you slip it's pretty much a free hit and if you throw it and they catch it which is pretty likely they'll just insta throw back before you can do anything. There's also a somewhat new idea going around with Diddy's custom rocket barrel which KO's at 80ish% I think and if they read your get up the rocket barrel is pretty much a guaranteed hit.

Reflect Banana's if you can, it works and will actually hit diddy because it's reflecting at his height but I wouldn't rely on it, reflect is slow and lasts a long time so if you mistime it'll end poorly.

 

[GwJ]

R.O.B. mains are discussing Palutena, please contribute if you can! http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-10-palutena.398049/

 

[Fz Truth]

Now that Diddys been nerfed significantly from the patch, I feel that peoples opinion on the matchup will change slightly.

 

[Djent]

Nothing has changed except for the fact that Diddy's reward is significantly worse. I think we still lose, but not by much anymore.

 

[Fz Truth]

KB on Diddys dthrow has increased a lot making it harder for diddy to follow up. I agree that Diddy still wins but its nothing more than a 60:40 imo

 

[Zediwonder]

I'd like to add more since the patch but my friend dropped Diddy as soon as the patch hit if that says anything.

 

[kamus_aran]

When will we move on to Sonic guys? i think he's a bad MU for Palutena.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I've had no problem with Sonic. Pal's Dash attack beats his spin dash, although he can jump to bait the dash attack and punish. I find it easy to land up smashes against him, although again that can be baited.

 

[Masque]

I've had no problem with Sonic. Pal's Dash attack beats his spin dash, although he can jump to bait the dash attack and punish. I find it easy to land up smashes against him, although again that can be baited.

Yeah, intercepting a Homing Attack with our heavenly Up Smash is so satisfying. :D

 

[faderpotater]

I haven't played a good sonic but I remember learning to adapt the hit and run tactics I saw online a lot by knowing when I could punish or chase, specifically for me it was getting used to how long some of his aerials lasted because at first I always dropped shield to early. I remember his up smash being annoying too.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I don't have a ton of Sonic experience, but in hope that we get this thread moving some--and since I fought a Sonic for the first time tonight--I'll give my impressions. This is all assuming customs are off.

Sonic is overall a difficult fight. Unlike the majority of the cast, he's faster than Palu on the ground and just overall more mobile. In addition, he has better kill options and a ridiculous recovery. It's not all bad, though. My limited experience makes me think that this is an uphill fight for Palu. I'm trying to think of an area we excell in over him and I'm not really coming up with anything off the top of my head.

Palu isn't really an easy character to kill with, but I was having extra trouble with Sonic. He is very difficult to gimp or kill offstage, and the nature of his Up-B means he can recover high OVER the range of our Upsmash and still be a concern on the way down. His speed means that a pivot fsmash has to be a VERY hard read since he can usually just run in and stuff it with whatever.

The current common stagelist has pretty much nowhere that I'd like to counterpick Sonic to, either. Every stage is fairly huge and gives him plenty of room to play his spacing games; I'd really like to be able to take him someplace like Norfair.

Outside of killing I still feel like we can play a solid game against him but when it comes to landing the finishing blow he has much better options than us.

This is all based on like thirty minutes of friendlies though.

 

[mmkzer0]

His mobility sure is a problem, but I think "slowing down" against him can be quite an option. Sonics I played with were rather agressive, trying to punish every approach. Being patient and waiting for him to make his move worked way better - just my experience.
Sadly our Auto-reticle does sh** against him, usually to get some % with it on my opponent...

 

[Nexin]

Ill post a more in depth analysis later since I have classes soon, but there are two things about Sonic that you need to remember: He has bad landing options, and his recovery is predictable and vulnerable. You have to remember to exploit those as much as possible.

Overall, you and Sonic both want to play the same game in this matchup, and that is hit and run. It doesn't benefit Palutena to be very offensive or very defensive here, so you'll want a mixture of both in order to protect yourself while still being able to damage him.

 

[Disgaea D2]

Palutena v G&W MU please.

 

[Berserker.]

http://smashboards.com/threads/palutena-match-up-thread-face-me-like-a-god.402284/

Customs discussion will also be accepted but try to remember the default-meta discussion. Thaaaaanks

 

[andrebound]

What's the ZSS matchup like?

 

[JosePollo]

Couple of things I've learned about the Sonic MU.

1. Never use her standard special. Auto-reticle or Explosive Flame, NEVER use them.
2. Jab beats out Sonic's spin dash (this is true for most characters), and clanks with his dash attack. Just don't lock yourself into the rapid jab.
3. Up tilt beats out Sonic's Homing Attack. As does nair. A lot of Sonics like to spin dash, then jump into Homing Attack if you're shielding, so I like to nair out of shield to catch them as the move's charging.
4. There's very little Sonic can do to successfully edge guard Palutena, with Warp or Jump Glide. Warp is invincible, save for a couple of frames as she ledge-snaps, and the mix-up possibilities with Jump Glide are way too many for Sonic to be able to cover even half of them.
5. Most of Sonic's moves outprioritize Super Speed, so mix it up if you're going to approach with it.

Overall, you and Sonic both want to play the same game in this matchup, and that is hit and run. It doesn't benefit Palutena to be very offensive or very defensive here, so you'll want a mixture of both in order to protect yourself while still being able to damage him.

I actually feel like keeping the pressure up with fair and bair is the best way to face Sonic, since a lot of his strategy revolves around his spin attacks, all of which require charging to be used. With Lightweight and Super Speed, Palutena has no trouble keeping up with Sonic, and her she has a lot more kill options to choose from when facing him.

I haven't faced a lot of good ZSS, so I know nothing about the match-up, but I can guess Paralyzer can give Super Speed Palutena a lot of problems, as can her side B.

 

[Nexin]

Couple of things I've learned about the Sonic MU.

1. Never use her standard special. Auto-reticle or Explosive Flame, NEVER use them.
2. Jab beats out Sonic's spin dash (this is true for most characters), and clanks with his dash attack. Just don't lock yourself into the rapid jab.
3. Up tilt beats out Sonic's Homing Attack. As does nair. A lot of Sonics like to spin dash, then jump into Homing Attack if you're shielding, so I like to nair out of shield to catch them as the move's charging.
4. There's very little Sonic can do to successfully edge guard Palutena, with Warp or Jump Glide. Warp is invincible, save for a couple of frames as she ledge-snaps, and the mix-up possibilities with Jump Glide are way too many for Sonic to be able to cover even half of them.
5. Most of Sonic's moves outprioritize Super Speed, so mix it up if you're going to approach with it.



I actually feel like keeping the pressure up with fair and bair is the best way to face Sonic, since a lot of his strategy revolves around his spin attacks, all of which require charging to be used. With Lightweight and Super Speed, Palutena has no trouble keeping up with Sonic, and her she has a lot more kill options to choose from when facing him.

I haven't faced a lot of good ZSS, so I know nothing about the match-up, but I can guess Paralyzer can give Super Speed Palutena a lot of problems, as can her side B.

There is one thing that is like to add to what you said. From my experience, Sonic seems to have extremely bad landing options due to all of his aerials having bad landing lag. I'd like somebody else's opinion on it so I don't accidentally give bad advice, but it seems that Palutena could be able to exploit that fairly easily.

 

[meleebrawler]

There is one thing that is like to add to what you said. From my experience, Sonic seems to have extremely bad landing options due to all of his aerials having bad landing lag. I'd like somebody else's opinion on it so I don't accidentally give bad advice, but it seems that Palutena could be able to exploit that fairly easily.

Gotta watch for that spring > dair autocancel.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Gotta watch for that spring > dair autocancel.

The cancel isn't this much of a problem once you get the hang of it. You can even counter it because he's doing stuff like fsmash out of it which becomes predictable. The bad thing about is that he can land safely of course.

 

[LyonelNoale]

Note - the power of UpTilt, which has major priority over Ganandorf's Aerial Down B and DAir, as well as Falcon's Aerial Down B and DAir. If timed correctly, it also beats out Bowser's Aerial Down B and DAir, as well as Villager's Down Air.

Edit: Also beats out Sheik's Down Air and Down B, as well as ZSS's Down Air and Side B!

Man. This move is amazing. NO STAGE RETURN FOR YOUUUUUUU

 

[Wintropy]

Any thoughts on the Ryu matchup?

I feel like this could either be a great matchup or an awful matchup depending on the nature of the opponent. Ryu's got a great pressure game and his combo potential is through the frickin' roof, though I think we can keep him at bay with judicious application of customs. Explosive Flame seems to work well against him due to his slow running speed, while Warp is good for escaping his death strings.

I dunno, I'm just spitballin' here. I think it'll be a while before we have concrete tourney results.

 

[Nexin]

Any thoughts on the Ryu matchup?

I feel like this could either be a great matchup or an awful matchup depending on the nature of the opponent. Ryu's got a great pressure game and his combo potential is through the frickin' roof, though I think we can keep him at bay with judicious application of customs. Explosive Flame seems to work well against him due to his slow running speed, while Warp is good for escaping his death strings.

I dunno, I'm just spitballin' here. I think it'll be a while before we have concrete tourney results.

I've actually been thinking about this matchup a bit recently, and though it is just theory crafting, I don't think the matchup is all that bad honestly. While a lot of what you said is true, you also have to remember that Ryu lacks range on many of his attacks. Combine that with the fact that his aerials aren't that great in the neutral, most of his attacks being unsafe on shield, and his inability to effectively zone out Palutena, then there is a potential risk of him getting walled out by her, especially if she uses her down tilt intelligently.

If anything, I feel that one of the biggest issues that Palutena may have in this matchup is frame data, and even then I feel that it only means that she has to play more carefully against Ryu than usual.

Again, this is just theory crafting. I haven't had any experience with this matchup at all yet. I've been playing Ryu a lot since he was released, so I could practice this matchup with somebody later and see how much of it we can figure out.

 

[Nexin]

I just faced a couple of Ryu players online. While none of them were great, I was able to at least figure out a few things that may cause us some trouble as well as a few potential counter measures.

First of all, for the most part, Palutena's throw game seems just as strong as it normally is, but actually getting the grab might be a problem. First of all, Ryu is already a difficult character to approach due to his amazing frame data and especially high combo potential, but he might also be able to out prioritize some of our grab setups at low percentages. It is possible that I didn't space the jab correctly and/or mistimed the grab attempt, but there was one time where my opponent mashed out his jab combo before I was able to grab him. Even if it was just an execution error on my part, there weren't many other times where I was able to get within range to setup any grabs against him, so raw grabs might be more reliable in this matchup.

One thing that Palutena may be able to exploit is Ryu's recovery. While Ryu is able to travel a fair distance with it horizontally, his vertical recovery is not great and it is very predictable. If he tries to recover low, it might be a good idea to chase him offstage and try to hit him with either nair, dair, and, depending on the stage, bair. If he attempts to recover high, then the main things that you have to be concerned about are Focus Attack and FADC shenanigans, but as long as you are aware of how that move functions and what his options are if he uses down b then you are still at a clear advantage.

These are just initial observations of this matchup, so take this advice with a grain of salt. Once I have more experience in this matchup and I've faced a few really good Ryu players, I'll write a better matchup analysis.

 

[rosettastonecold]

In the Ryu matchup, Palutena would probably want to back off for the most part in the neutral and just bait unsafe options. Otherwise she will end up a victim to Ryu's notable frame data. When Palutena has a decent amount of stage control, she could begin to apply pressure, especially offstage. This being said, I wouldn't suggest committing to any considerably unsafe options until a spacing advantage has been established.