Data Palutena's Match Ups - NEW FORMAT: ALL CHARACTER DISCUSSION

[teluoborg]

I see a lot of misinformed posts here. A good Falcon (that you won't find in for glory and probably won't find online at all) rarely uses dash attack, dash grab raptor boost or falcon kick in the neutral.

NEUTRAL :
Falcon's neutral game is mainly made of Nair, Uair, Bair, jab, tilts and dashing shield. Nair, Uair and Bair all autocancel and have low landing lag, the range on Dtilt matches Palutena's tilts and the jab eats through every dodge and misspaced approach.

Palutena's neutral game is... Jab ? I remember seeing Nairs, Fairs but what shocked me the most was that jab. At low percents it doesn't lead to much but if she lands a jab at 30-40% it's usually a free grab, and the number of options rise proportionnally with the percents. Even though it's slower than Falcon's it covers a lot of range and the benefits from it are much bigger. But yeah as I said I don't see any other move that Palutena can abuse in the neutral. Fair and Nair are scary options, but beside that her tilts are slow and her other aerials lack direct range.

PUNISHING, CAPITALIZING AND KILLING :
This one is flat even. Both characters can kill surprisingly early on a good read (Palutena with her Uair and smashes and Falcon with his Fair, side B and Fsmash) but if both opponents are playing safe neither should be killing before 150%.

I feel like Falcon has the edge here because his kill moves cover more options and 2 of his bread and butter moves kill (Bair and Uair)

OFFSTAGE GAME :
This one I feel is neutral or maybe a very slight advantage for Palutena as she has an easier time gimping and recovering, but Falcon can do both too. The biggest part of the offstage game is the high-low recovery mix up for both characters. If a low recovery is predicted then Falcon can easily gimp Palutena because her up B has no invincibility towards the end so Bair will hit her before she can grab the ledge, but if Falcon is forced to recover low and has burned his second jump then it's free Bair/Dair for Palutena. Same for high recovery which can end pretty badly for both characters if predicted.

All around I feel it's pretty neutral, with both characters having slight advantages in different areas but neither of them having the clear upper hand in any part of the matches.

Now if you turn the custom moves on it's a clear advantage for palutena simply because Dthrow Uair is a guaranteed kill (without it can be DI'd). And having a guaranteed kill setup from a grab at 110-ish percents is crazy strong *coughdiddycough*

 

[meleebrawler]

Dtilt is a fairly good tool for Palutena in neutral and footsies as well. Learn to love free clank punishes.

 

[Wintropy]

Can anybody tell me if you can clank Falcon's side-b and down-b with jab?

It's difficult to get the CPU to do it in training and I don't want to risk it on For Glory.

 

[Enrel]

Shouldn't it be like anything else? Wait until almost last minute and use Jab1? It's how I've done it with a few of his moves. Though to be honest that's been more of a fluke than anything.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Can anybody tell me if you can clank Falcon's side-b and down-b with jab?

It's difficult to get the CPU to do it in training and I don't want to risk it on For Glory.

Falcon kick clanks with jab.

Not sure about raptor boost, but IIRC yes.

 

[meleebrawler]

Falcon kick clanks with jab.

Not sure about raptor boost, but IIRC yes.

Most of the time you'll just hit him before the uppercut starts though.

 

[Masque]

Can anybody tell me if you can clank Falcon's side-b and down-b with jab?

It's difficult to get the CPU to do it in training and I don't want to risk it on For Glory.

I know I've stopped both with jab, and I'm 100% sure jab clanks with Falcon Kick, but I can't remember if it clanks or outprioritizes Raptor Boost. Either way, jab stops both from hurting you.

 

[teluoborg]

Palutena's jab will beat Falcon's side B before the hitbox comes out, unless you do it too early in which case the side B will activate on the jab hitbox and it will whiff, which you can punish if you react to it quickly.

Falcon kick will clash with your jab with its 2 weak hitboxes, but the strong hitbox (on the first third of the slide) will beat the jab so be careful when Falcon uses this move in mid range.

@ meleebrawler : no Dtilt is not good in the neutral. It covers a great range and can clash with lots of things, but it has such a big cooldown if your attack whiffs or gets shielded it's extremely punishable, especially for someone that moves as fast as Falcon.

 

[meleebrawler]

Palutena's jab will beat Falcon's side B before the hitbox comes out, unless you do it too early in which case the side B will activate on the jab hitbox and it will whiff, which you can punish if you react to it quickly.

Falcon kick will clash with your jab with its 2 weak hitboxes, but the strong hitbox (on the first third of the slide) will beat the jab so be careful when Falcon uses this move in mid range.

@ meleebrawler : no Dtilt is not good in the neutral. It covers a great range and can clash with lots of things, but it has such a big cooldown if your attack whiffs or gets shielded it's extremely punishable, especially for someone that moves as fast as Falcon.

Dtilt has more startup than it does endlag. The only way I see it really being punished
is having it shielded at close range, which shouldn't happen as she'll be using jab there.
The key is using it just outside it's effective range.

 

[teluoborg]

You're underestimating Falcon's dash speed and dash grab range.

If you use Dtilt so that it doesn't hit then Falcon can whiff punish. If you space it on shield Falcon can shield drop dash grab/attack you.

Just because its endlag is less horrible than your Ftilt doesn't make it a fast move.

 

[Ree301]

How does Palutena's reflect effect Falcon's recovery? It gives a little shove if I'm not mistaken. It probably has some utility vs. a raptor boost as well. Instead of jabbing Falcon's side b, push it out of range and punish it with something stronger than a jab>grab string.

 

[Zediwonder]

Reflect is really really inconsistent, if you time Reflect even a little bit off that Raptor boost is going to go through the reflect and hit, this is pretty much the problem with using Reflect for any melee move, yes it might work in the right circumstances but you're more likely to botch it.

 

[M]

Honestly, whiffing an Fsmash is a better tool than reflect when it comes to Falcon recoveries. In fact I pulled the former off in a tourney game to succession.

 

[Locuan]

Hey everyone, we are about to start the discussion on the Palutena match up on the Marth Match-Up Thread. It would be great if you could help us out.

 

[Ffamran]

Why is this thread dead? The Goddess of Light should be brimming with vitality. Anyway, don't worry about Falco. He's fine. His wings just don't work right.

Hello from the Falco boards, we just started our Palutena matchup discussion. So feel free to bless us with Palutena's knowledge of combat. Link here: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...4-palutena-lasers-seems-like-overkill.394111/.

 

[Deleted member]

The Toon Link board is currently discussing the Palutena match-up, so if anyone wants to join in on the discussion you can do so here. The discussion goes until March 21.
Also, I apologize if this isn't the place to post this. I looked around and couldn't find anywhere else that looked like the place to say this.

 

[TastyCarcass]

Pal's dash attack beats Falcon's down b and side b, but a good falcon won't be spamming those.

I find the matchup difficult because Falcon's quick jabs make it difficult to grab him off a Palutena jab.

I think it's difficult to punish a roll spamming Falcon. I can't give any advice other than get out of there and try to get him to do something else.

Pal's up air beats everything Falcon can do from above.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Palutena players, Rosalina is currently analyzing Palutena at the Match-Up Analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute to the match-up, we'll be analyzing Palutena until the end of 3/15.

 

[Wintropy]

I think we ought to get this thread back up and running again. A lot of character boards have consistent updates and discussions on matchups, I think it'd be good if we could do something similar in here.

I know we're a relatively small community, but we're quite capable of coming together when discussions about our favourite deity spring up. I'd suggest that we either go through the roster sequentially, as other character boards do; or, if that's too ubiquitous a task, just use this thread for general matchup talk, and create separate threads for more detailed and specific discussion.

 

[LyonelNoale]

I think we ought to get this thread back up and running again. A lot of character boards have consistent updates and discussions on matchups, I think it'd be good if we could do something similar in here.

I know we're a relatively small community, but we're quite capable of coming together when discussions about our favourite deity spring up. I'd suggest that we either go through the roster sequentially, as other character boards do; or, if that's too ubiquitous a task, just use this thread for general matchup talk, and create separate threads for more detailed and specific discussion.

I'm just unsure about who to discuss next, although I suppose that I can put that into the Header...

Any suggestions?

 

[HarajukuNinja]

Might I suggest that we discuss the top/ high tier characters first? Maybe Diddy Kong since he's considered the best atm.

 

[Wintropy]

I concur with @ HarajukuNinja , it's best to discuss her tougher matchups first. It's why I suggested Cap in the first place. :3

Diddy sounds like a plan. Shall I go scout out the Diddy board for players?

 

[Nexin]

I concur with @ HarajukuNinja , it's best to discuss her tougher matchups first. It's why I suggested Cap in the first place. :3

Diddy sounds like a plan. Shall I go scout out the Diddy board for players?

Lets go for it then. I've got a good bit of free time on Tuesday, so I'd be glad to go a few matches against some people from the Diddy Kong board then if that is what the next matchup is.

Edit: Actually, it looks like I'll be able to play a bit tonight. When I'm ready, I'll post here again.

 

[Wintropy]

Sent the invite.

Hopefully we'll get some good responses. :3

@ LyonelNoale , would you be able to update the OP with the relevant data?

 

[Zediwonder]

Really? I felt like at this point most people would be familiar with the matchup since Diddy Kong was an unstoppable force a while ago.

I'd say I know the matchup pretty well, my friend plays Diddy and I got used to losing for a while, def in Diddy's favor I'd say. I agree we should be discussing the stronger characters of the game, ZSS, Yoshi, Rosalina, not sure how those characters do on the tier list but in my experience they're some of the toughest match up's I've lost from a lack of knowledge on how to counter or approach them.

 

[Nexin]

Really? I felt like at this point most people would be familiar with the matchup since Diddy Kong was an unstoppable force a while ago.

I'd say I know the matchup pretty well, my friend plays Diddy and I got used to losing for a while, def in Diddy's favor I'd say. I agree we should be discussing the stronger characters of the game, ZSS, Yoshi, Rosalina, not sure how those characters do on the tier list but in my experience they're some of the toughest match up's I've lost from a lack of knowledge on how to counter or approach them.

Actually, I'm not familiar with the Diddy Kong matchup. Nobody that I live near plays Diddy, so the only things I know about his matchup are respect the grab and edge guard him. I'd love to do one of the matchup a you requested next, but right now I'd prefer to start with Diddy.

One matchup I am somewhat familiar with is Palutena vs Yoshi, so if you want, I'd be glad to help you figure out how to deal with Yoshi.

 

[xnine]

I feel like we should probably do several character matchups at once over longer duration (1-2weeks?) for people to chime in and what not. Doing one character at a time will take eons.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I agree.

As for Diddy, I dont like playing Pal against one. Diddy is just too fast. I think tena struggles against characters that are fast enough to punish her reflect from a large distance. I get the feeling that Diddy's super quick roll makes it too unsafe to try punishing with a dsmash. It feels like he can dodge around you and grab before you can finish a single jab.

 

[Zediwonder]

Diddy is a fairly small character and as with most small characters he is really ****ing difficult to hit with anything, I've experienced many a whiffed grab simply because of Diddy's size.

I've played this match up a lot, it starts out really awful but it's more bearable the better you know it. The first thing really is Palutena's fair is almost worthless against him because his fair will win out or trade better in most circumstances. Jab > grab is the best way to catch Diddy, it clashes with a lot of his moves and is fast enough to catch him, just going for a grab in an "opening" doesn't always work because of Diddy's dtilt, it has weird frames and will knock you out of a grab even if you can see you got the grab on him, it's not really possible to bait this out either cause of it's speed. Of course any player that knows the match up slightly will know to avoid the jab or bait it out, and Palu's jab can be baited unfortunately.

I'm probably going to update this post with more, my friend plays Diddy so I do know the match up pretty well but I'm drawing a blank right now, as well as writing this in class.

 

[Vonn Hennings]

My personal opinion on the Diddy Kong matchup would be a 50-50. Reason being that, Palutena has the ability to keep if off the ledge extremely well and many ways to get him off of the ledge, however Diddy is a force on the ground being fast and small, it takes a bit more work to get him off stage than most characters. Jabs into grab is probably one of the best options against Diddy. D-Tilt I find to be quite effective in the least for stopping run-up grabs. Reflect Barrier is also an important part of the matchup for it can reflect Bananas back at Diddy, making his bananas a force against his forward game. It can also make the command flip grab from hitting palutena, if timed correctly. They can easily go back and forth, not to mention reflect also reflects the peanut gun as well. Diddy can however counter with other things if you don't read correctly. Basic things like that.

 

[Djent]

I can't see this MU being good, even with customs.

Character with absurd normals (grounded and aerial) and DIable-but-still-highly-potent kill setups out of throws > Character with meh normals (esp. grounded) and even-less-DIable kill setups that require a state change move with significant limitations. Sure, his recovery is worse, but that's our only large advantage. Did I mention that he actually has a keep-away game, and that his short stature and excellent rolls make our already-mediocre "projectile" options even worse?

Solid 6:4 for IMO.

 

[Wintropy]

I agree with the above, this is not a good matchup for Diddy, customs or otherwise. He's fast, aggressive, pressures well and can keep us at bay with his item spawning. Getting in his face is difficult because he's so small and fast, and his tiny hitbox and surprising durability for a lightweight make it even more difficult to KO him. His airgame is also pretty good, and that makes Palutena even more vulnerable in the air than she usually is.

Defensive play is not an option when he can just fire peanuts and grab you from across the stage, and getting too aggressive is asking for a Hoo-Ha. So we have to really play tactfully and read his movements. That being said, it's not impossible by any means: Reflect can be useful for tossing his peanuts and bananas back, and Lightweight mitigates much of his superior speed. He's also easy to gimp with a falling n-air or possibly d-air, and at least two of our up-b moves beat his in terms of recovery, and the other is a decent KO option. So we need to be on our toes and don't let him get too ahead of himself. Maintain pressure and force hard reads if necessary, if we can mitigate his biggest offenders (neutral-b, down-b, side-b, f-smash, u-smash, Hoo-Ha), we should be able to keep on top of him and win the battle. I think customs will play a big part in this matchup, both for us and for Diddy, as it'll open up new avenues of exploitation and may be key to countering Diddy's naturally impressive speed and power.

Customs off:

30: 70

Customs on:

40 : 60 ​

 

[Zediwonder]

Diddy's Hoo hah is pretty easy to avoid when it matters, it is DIable but it's a lot more effective than Palu's own dthrow u-air because it can punish air dodges with a second uair if the first misses which is what makes the hoo hah so much more known as a "cheap" KO. I really don't like this match up without customs, if you want to beat Diddy with Palutena you gotta be really patient and wait for him to come to you, he's really tough to punish even on whiffed moves which is why I always go for jab > grab because going straight for a grab you're more than likely going to be hit with his dtilt. Reflect works but Diddy can easily fake out banana throws if they think you're going to use reflect.

This is a match up you have to get used to as well, he's really hard to follow and read when you first start versing him.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

We should take a look at these 2 matches, if you haven't already(customs ON)
SW 20 Smash 4 - TLOC | Denti (Diddy) vs AeroLink (Palutena) - Grand Finals

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtHTieSUdWw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtHTieSUdWw[/spoiler]
SW 20 Smash 4 - TLOC | Denti (Diddy) vs AeroLink (Palutena) - Winners Finals

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpmchLKZ5go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpmchLKZ5go[/spoiler]

 

[Zediwonder]

Ok, so no one has really been discussing the Diddy match up for like a week now, I figure I'll leave my last two cents then maybe move on unless anyone needs specific questions or help answered which should really be brought up here.

Diddy has the obvious advantage in this match up, my win/loss ratio against my friend who plays Diddy is maybe 1:3 on a bad day and 1:2 on a good day. I'm not the best Palutena player and my friend certainly isn't the best Diddy but based off my experience I have to put the match up 30:70 in Diddy's favour.

Palutena doesn't have a lot of good moves to deal with him, throwing out nairs and bairs is the safest option as both cover you, nair somewhat covers your landing but you gotta be super careful to make sure the last hit hits so diddy actually gets knocked back, bair is good just because it negates anything diddy can counter with on the ground besides shield, if it's shielded get ready to get grabbed though. Diddy will mostly destroy Palutena early and late game if you aren't careful but mid percents (30ish+ to 70ish) he'll have to either risk staling the uair and not killing as early off dthrows or get a lucky bair off someone not using DI.

Again Palutena is super tall which makes this match up even worse, Diddy can duck the grab and jab or dtilt out of most of our options not to mention his deceptive side special and he can make approaching annoying with his pop gun. You'll also have to be careful of b reversed pop gun, if you think you're reading them and go for a smash they might be baiting it and breverse out of it and punish it massively.

I know this probably sounds like old news at this point but the best way to beat Diddy is be careful and take the sagely advice of Ice climber players: "Don't get grabbed", Diddy is difficult, everyone will probably have a lot of trouble dealing with him for a while, some habits as Palutena like approaching fairs will need to stop against Diddy as you'll be taking unnecessary damage because fairing Diddy most of the time is asking to be hit, just don't be a fool like me and forget to fair in every other matchup and use fair SPARINGLY.

TL;DR - Diddy is Diddycult 30:70 in his favour unless someone else would like to say otherwise cause I'm not the best player.

 

[kamus_aran]

Can we move on to Sonic ?

 

[Wintropy]

Jab stop Spin Dash, as I recall.

Other than that, I'm lost.

 

[Djent]

So AeroLink lost R1 of Shockwave to a relatively-unknown player. He then struggled past Delbuster with a narrow 3-2 victory, despite two-stocking him G1 when he had no clue what to do. He then lost 1-3 to Denti, who took the set rather convincingly. The commentators also informed us that Aero has yet to win this player MU as .

I'm beginning to think maybe 4:6 is a bit optimistic. I think there are some things AeroLink could do differently to improve his chances in the MU, like running 2312 and not rolling into FSmash reads. But I honestly don't think he's primarily to blame. He knows a lot about this character, and he still struggles with basic, don't-know-the-MU Kong. It's kind of disheartening, although I definitely wouldn't advocate switching to a dedicated secondary this early in the game's evolution.

 

[Zediwonder]

I did some more playing against my Diddy friend and they started using custom rocket barrels which have the potential to KO at extremely low %, like 80% early though it's fairly easy to avoid if a Diddy reads your get up from a banana or a ledge you can wave goodbye to your stock.

I think this goes without saying but trying to tackle Diddy off stage is not the best idea, he stage spikes super easily with most of his aerials and his dair is okay as well. I stick by my 30:70 for the match up, even reading your opponent almost perfectly Diddy is still tough to beat.

 

[Wintropy]

Advisable to pocket a sub for Diddy, then? I've got a few subs in my roster, though I'm not sure how well they tackle the funky monkey~