Data Palutena's Match Ups - NEW FORMAT: ALL CHARACTER DISCUSSION

[Meowser]

I'm by no means a great Bowser, but I know not to use Bowser Bomb when I'm way above the platform and my opponent is on the ground, so apparently I'm better than the average FG-player. Sadly, I've never fought a human Palutena in Sm4sh. Out of 300 FG 1on1s not a single one, and no friends who use her whatsoever, thus all I can contribute is lv9 AI experience, theory crafting and comparison, but alas!

The weight difference is a huge issue. Bowser can extremely easily remove a lightweight like Tuna at low percentages while he himself can eat a ton of damage, thus get rage going to support his KO-prowess. Upsmash, arguably his best smash for several reasons - that means a good Bowser will use that move somewhat often - can kill Palutena uncharged and at no rage from around 80%. His command grab requires little more than 100% to kill reliably, without rage. Bowser Bomb kills from 90% on, but if he uses it off the ground and lands the first part of the attack, then 75% are lethal already! Respect the bair as well, standing at the edge it KOs at 70%, 95% from the middle of omega stages - this move is awkward to land so don't expect to see it super often, but if it hits home it's surprisingly powerful. Fsmash kills from roughly 60% on, but is the most easy to punish by far - if the opponent starts fsmashing vigurously at that percentage, you can expect to land a few counters there. Ftilt, his incredibly fast and somewhat safe poke, kills at around 120% when close to the edge. Knowing when to avoid what moves is pretty important on characters of low weight, imo.

Also, though I suppose this is common knowledge, Bowser has proven to be most effective when played somewhat defensively. Don't try to be aggressive, instead force him to attack you. Most of his moves rely heavily on proper spacing to be safe and can be punished if you mess with this. I find myself the least comfortable with characters who constantly change their distance to me without actually engaging. Makes it very hard to poke without exposing myself. Be wary of his pivot grab range and don't forget that dair can still steer left and right to an extend, so don't stand there charging a smash attack expecting him to go straight downwards.

 

[faderpotater]

I'm by no means a great Bowser, but I know not to use Bowser Bomb when I'm way above the platform and my opponent is on the ground, so apparently I'm better than the average FG-player. Sadly, I've never fought a human Palutena in Sm4sh. Out of 300 FG 1on1s not a single one, and no friends who use her whatsoever, thus all I can contribute is lv9 AI experience, theory crafting and comparison, but alas!

The weight difference is a huge issue. Bowser can extremely easily remove a lightweight like Tuna at low percentages while he himself can eat a ton of damage, thus get rage going to support his KO-prowess. Upsmash, arguably his best smash for several reasons - that means a good Bowser will use that move somewhat often - can kill Palutena uncharged and at no rage from around 80%. His command grab requires little more than 100% to kill reliably, without rage. Bowser Bomb kills from 90% on, but if he uses it off the ground and lands the first part of the attack, then 75% are lethal already! Respect the bair as well, standing at the edge it KOs at 70%, 95% from the middle of omega stages - this move is awkward to land so don't expect to see it super often, but if it hits home it's surprisingly powerful. Fsmash kills from roughly 60% on, but is the most easy to punish by far - if the opponent starts fsmashing vigurously at that percentage, you can expect to land a few counters there. Ftilt, his incredibly fast and somewhat safe poke, kills at around 120% when close to the edge. Knowing when to avoid what moves is pretty important on characters of low weight, imo.

Also, though I suppose this is common knowledge, Bowser has proven to be most effective when played somewhat defensively. Don't try to be aggressive, instead force him to attack you. Most of his moves rely heavily on proper spacing to be safe and can be punished if you mess with this. I find myself the least comfortable with characters who constantly change their distance to me without actually engaging. Makes it very hard to poke without exposing myself. Be wary of his pivot grab range and don't forget that dair can still steer left and right to an extend, so don't stand there charging a smash attack expecting him to go straight downwards.

Honestly most of what you talk about is exactly why I don't like to put any mu against a heavy hitter heavily into palutenas favor. Heavy hitters just turn matches around so easily. Especially ones that punish well, and played right bowser has punish potential IMO. I would still say the mu is slightly in our favor but playing against a dedicated bowser main would help a lot. While my friend plays a good bowser because of his deep understanding of smash he doesn't main him so I'm certain there are a lot better bowsers out there.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Palutena has no trouble fighting Bowser. She is, in my opinion, one of the soft counters to Bowser due to how her best moves in this MU work. Bair and dash attack, just those two moves beat out almost all of Bowser's ground options to the point where Bowser cannot commit to an approach without eating a shield to the face every time. Worse is how good Plutena's defensive options are. Retreating Bair and an excellent dodge roll create an impressive chain of priority and invincibility when needed. Combined with her excellent punish options and there is no reason Palutena should fear Bowser, as Palutena's kit naturally allows her to push Bowser out of neutral. Just don't go into your jab combo. We ignore it.

Everything else said about Palutena's air game is true. Bowser should never challenge Palutena from air to ground. Any Bowser that frequents tournaments will not attempt to randomly Dair or Bowser Bomb you unless you've committed to something already. Bowser MUST respect Palutena if he is to touch the ground, and Bowser wants to be on the ground in case he gets you out of neutral.

Ground to air is a different matter. Once you're thrown out of neutral, Bowser has solid options if he's trying to stop Palutena from landing. Fair and Uair all have exceptional disjoint diagonally above Bowser and are great for challenging Palutena's options. Fair auto-cancels, so Bowser can land safely to react in case the attack misses. Bair is the same as Fair in terms of auto-canceling, but has no disjoint. You will beat it with almost any attack, so you shouldn't panic or you'll accidentally trade with it. USmash has the same property as Palutena's shield, and it hits like a monster. It can even negate counter-attacks, that's how good it is. If Bowser decides not to challenge Palutena's air to ground, Bowser can air dodge cancel into Fortress, covering almost any option Palutena has when landing and shrinking his hurtbox, causing spaced attacks to whiff. As a mixup, Bowser still possesses classic OoS options, pivot grab, and air dodge cancel into Klaw. This is the only area in which Bowser has any kind of advantage, and it's still small given how good Palutena is at covering her landing with options like counter and retreating Bair. Escaping to the ledge isn't too terrible against Bowser, either, as it will refresh your jumps and give you a second chance to catch Bowser off-guard with aerials that cover the ledge or other mixups.

Most Bowsers do not have good Palutenas to fight. I was fortunate to be blessed with a Japanese buddy that mains Palutena, as well as having the pleasure to face Palutena in friendlies at local venues. From my experience, this matchup is in Palutena's favor. Not as great an advantage as, say, Captain Falcon, or Luigi, who can 0 to death us much more handily, but you guys will definitely enjoy breathing room. Hope you all get the chance to attend events or find good Bowser players over at the Bowser section. I think it's a fun fight for all of you.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm available to play matches if anyone is interested, I don't encounter Palutena too often on For Glory, and the experience I do have is a bit too limited for me to do a write-up. So if anyone want to play me then feel free to add my NNID and we'll just run some games to explore the match-up a little bit.

 

[Cassius.]

If any of you guys are going to APEX, we can definitely set up a time to run through some sets or something to dissect this match up. I only played against one Palutena player, and all I know is a ledge cancelled Bowser Bomb can hit her before she snaps the ledge...

but I'm not sure if that's common knowledge since I don't know anything about her lmao

edit: the fact that she doesn't immediately snap the ledge when she comes out of her warp

 

[faderpotater]

I'm available to play matches if anyone is interested, I don't encounter Palutena too often on For Glory, and the experience I do have is a bit too limited for me to do a write-up. So if anyone want to play me then feel free to add my NNID and we'll just run some games to explore the match-up a little bit.

I am terrible online but I am always up for games with people if just to get a general idea of how a good player moves and react. My NNID is Darthsson, may not be on in the next few days as I have a lot of homework, but feel free to add me anyone and maybe we can get a game some time.

 

[Jerodak]

@ faderpotater I added you, if anyone else is interested in playing some matches then let me know. It'd be good to get as much experience as possible.

 

[faderpotater]

@ faderpotater I added you, if anyone else is interested in playing some matches then let me know. It'd be good to get as much experience as possible.

Busy most of today with work and hw, but tomorrow I should have a little free time and I'll accept the request.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

I play Bowser too. If someone wants to study the Matchup.

 

[JayWon]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Bowser doesn't flinch from Palutena's Jab/Jab-combo? And I know for a fact U-Air and U-Tilt beats Bowser's D-Special but I haven't been getting 100% success on his D-air.

Also when Bowser does his Neutral-Special, Warp behind him for very easy punish.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Bowser doesn't flinch from Palutena's Jab/Jab-combo? And I know for a fact U-Air and U-Tilt beats Bowser's D-Special but I haven't been getting 100% success on his D-air.

Also when Bowser does his Neutral-Special, Warp behind him for very easy punish.

I warned about jab in the first paragraph of my impression. You can still jab 1 to jab 1, but that should be a given. Bowser will almost never challenge Palutena from above. Dair has a bigger hit box on its initial active frames, but other than that, it won't be used often. Bowser also won't be using his flame breath in the MU unless something funny happened. Palutena's neutral game is strong enough that it phases out that option already without the need for warp.

 

[Maraphy]

We've been on Bowser for a couple of weeks it seems; does anyone want to suggest a new matchup ?

Thank you very much to the Bowser mains who have given their input! I think we ended up learning a lot about the koopa king that we didn't know before. Based on the posts on Bowser vs Palutena, plus from my experiences watching and playing, I would rate the matchup:

60 : 40

We should take the averages of people's matchup ratings and then use that to fill in the chart. So if you want to rate the matchup numerically and haven't done so yet, please do !

 

[Wintropy]

I'm gonna go with 60:40. It's a little bit in our favour in my experience, but not by much; we can space and dominate in the air, but slip up even once and we're in for a rough ride.

I'd like to suggest as our next matchup discussion. I think we can all agree that this is an opponent that can easily put us through the wringer if we're not careful, and talking about ways to beat his superior speed and aggressive playstyle would be very beneficial for the board.

 

[xnine]

I agree on Captain Falcon. I've run into a few and I find his dash grab to be very tough to deal with.

 

[Macarena of Time]

I'm also in agreement with Captain Falcon. The aggressive dash/pivot grabs and dash attacks are a nightmare to deal with.

 

[Masque]

I also support talking about CF. The insane speed on his dash/pivot grabs can be frustrating, but it's pretty safe to say that he's going to try to grab you if he starts running at you, and our jab can easily stop that.

 

[LyonelNoale]

We've been on Bowser for a couple of weeks it seems; does anyone want to suggest a new matchup ?

Thank you very much to the Bowser mains who have given their input! I think we ended up learning a lot about the koopa king that we didn't know before. Based on the posts on Bowser vs Palutena, plus from my experiences watching and playing, I would rate the matchup:

60 : 40

We should take the averages of people's matchup ratings and then use that to fill in the chart. So if you want to rate the matchup numerically and haven't done so yet, please do !

Yeah, I've been meaning to change it - I was actually planning to do it last Sunday - but I've been pretty swamped with midterms, so I haven't had the chance to get to it yet.

But I can take some time now and change it!! I'm on it!

 

[LyonelNoale]

I'm gonna go with 60:40. It's a little bit in our favour in my experience, but not by much; we can space and dominate in the air, but slip up even once and we're in for a rough ride.

I'd like to suggest as our next matchup discussion. I think we can all agree that this is an opponent that can easily put us through the wringer if we're not careful, and talking about ways to beat his superior speed and aggressive playstyle would be very beneficial for the board.

Okay, that works! I was hoping to go in alphabetical order, but I can definitely see that Captain Falcon is a real foe that we should focus on (plus, my cousin/good friend recently decided to main Falcon, so now is a better time than ever to learn the match-up!)

 

[xnine]

Does anyone know if reflecting Falcon's up B has any significant gimping capabilities? Does it have the same effectiveness like it does with Little Mac?

 

[meleebrawler]

Does anyone know if reflecting Falcon's up B has any significant gimping capabilities? Does it have the same effectiveness like it does with Little Mac?

Possibly Raptor Boost, but since Falcon Dive has horizontal movement unlike Rising Uppercut
I don't see it being that effective.

 

[Zediwonder]

We have a lot of captain falcon players over here but only one consistently makes it high in the tournaments, next time I get the chance I'm gonna have some matches with him hopefully but that won't be for a while unfortunately, I'm going to Spain for just over a week so this discussion will probably be over by the time I return, I'll still probably leave my input after the fact though.

Things I can note:
- Captain Falcon is a fast faller so he's easy to combo with grabs at highish %
- He's tall, fair and bair approaches are way easier
- He probably has one of the most reliable spikes in the game with his dair, it's not 100% but it's pretty damn good and is faster than Ganondorfs
- I wouldn't recommend going for dairs off stage, because of the lag you generally fall below the stage and Falcon has a few ways to stage spike and one of the best ones is he's recovery move.

A lot of people are playing Captain Falcon right now so I think we'll be able to get a lot of good information on this match up, I'm not good with judging ratio's especially when I actually really don't know the match up but I'd say it's in Palutena's favour, Captain Falcon is fast but his specials have high end lag and raptor boost and falcon punch both have a lot of start up but will probably kill you if you time it wrong (if you want to charge into a flaming fist of fury I commend your courage) Palutena for the most part has longer range than Falcon so she'll beat out most of his aerials and on the ground we are the jab master which Falcon will have a hard time getting past, I want to say the Match up is 70:30 in Palutena's favour but Falcon has a lot of ways to end stocks early with a lucky falcon punch, a meteor smash with his dair, stage spiking or hitting the sweet spot on his knee of justice.

I'm going to say 60:40 because Falcon does have a whole bunch of ways to turn a match around in an instant, I still think it's more in Palutena's favour with her range and aerials and similarly she can KO fairly early with her smash attacks.

 

[Maraphy]

VS! Captain Falcon
​

 

[Masque]

Another thing to note is that, aside from his Bair, just about all of his really potent KO moves (Falcon Punch, Side Smash, Raptor Boost) are telegraphed, making them relatively easy to shield and punish or even Counter. Abuse the Counter and you're bound to get launched, but it has definitely won the match for me on several occasions.

 

[meleebrawler]

This is a match that will really test your application of Palutena's options.
If you whiff anything remotely unsafe, Falcon will most likely punish and it'll
hurt when he does. Fortunately, he has a hard time beating Palutena's safe options
(jab, fair, dtilt) with his own moves, which gives her an edge in neutral. Just watch for
surprise Falcon Kicks and you'll be okay. She's also no slouch in advantage compared
to him since he falls fast and is not too quick in the air so Palutena doesn't have too much trouble
catching him (could u-throw work at low percents instead of d-throw?). Recovering, if Falcon
isn't smart with his double jump a fair can be all it takes to make him fail.

 

[BigLord]

I've come from the Falcon Boards. I haven't played against good Palutena mains so far, so I'm not sure I'll be of much help, but I've read some pretty awful misinformation, here.

A lot of people are playing Captain Falcon right now so I think we'll be able to get a lot of good information on this match up, I'm not good with judging ratio's especially when I actually really don't know the match up but I'd say it's in Palutena's favour, Captain Falcon is fast but his specials have high end lag and raptor boost and falcon punch both have a lot of start up but will probably kill you if you time it wrong (if you want to charge into a flaming fist of fury I commend your courage) Palutena for the most part has longer range than Falcon so she'll beat out most of his aerials and on the ground we are the jab master which Falcon will have a hard time getting past, I want to say the Match up is 70:30 in Palutena's favour but Falcon has a lot of ways to end stocks early with a lucky falcon punch, a meteor smash with his dair, stage spiking or hitting the sweet spot on his knee of justice.

I'm going to say 60:40 because Falcon does have a whole bunch of ways to turn a match around in an instant, I still think it's more in Palutena's favour with her range and aerials and similarly she can KO fairly early with her smash attacks.

First things first, Falcon's specials are laggy, yes, but his normal moves are, for the most part, very fast and don't have much lag themselves. Specially uAir. The only exception to this are his smash attacks and the knee.

You say you guys are the jab masters? I beg to differ. In terms of speed, Falcon wins by 4 frames (check out this data: http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU ). In terms of usefulness, I believe the gentleman is a lot more useful than Palutena's multi-jab, but maybe I'm missing something here... If you try to use the multi-jab as a wall, Falcon will just wait and then dash-grab. Or attack from above with a dAir or a bAir.

Point is, good Falcons will use the jab to reset everyone to neutral in a flash (for example, right after landing, the Falcon player holds down A, Falcon instantly gets up and starts flash-jabbing). Be careful of that.

I'll give you that Palutena can KO Falcon early with smash attacks (particularly uSmash), but no way in heck the MU is 70:30 to Palutena. 60:30 is still too steep, IMO, but like I said, I'm not experienced against Palutena.

Another thing to note is that, aside from his Bair, just about all of his really potent KO moves (Falcon Punch, Side Smash, Raptor Boost) are telegraphed, making them relatively easy to shield and punish or even Counter. Abuse the Counter and you're bound to get launched, but it has definitely won the match for me on several occasions.

Careful with that line of thought. Good Falcons are unpredictable and fast. Raptor Boost is best used as a punisher, not as an approach, so if used correctly you simply won't have enough reaction time to counter it. Plus, a serious Falcon will never use Falcon Punch unless he's favoring being flash/insane.
Also, you forgot the knee, and dAir -> uAir/knee -> knee setups. It's a thing, and unless you know it's coming (and even if you do, because it can be a true combo) it'll be difficult to counter.

This is a match that will really test your application of Palutena's options.
If you whiff anything remotely unsafe, Falcon will most likely punish and it'll
hurt when he does. Fortunately, he has a hard time beating Palutena's safe options
(jab, fair, dtilt) with his own moves, which gives her an edge in neutral. Just watch for
surprise Falcon Kicks and you'll be okay. She's also no slouch in advantage compared
to him since he falls fast and is not too quick in the air so Palutena doesn't have too much trouble
catching him (could u-throw work at low percents instead of d-throw?). Recovering, if Falcon
isn't smart with his double jump a fair can be all it takes to make him fail.

Any Falcon who approaches with Falcon Kicks isn't doing it right. Good Falcons will dash towards you, and either dash attack, dash-grab, short-jump fastfall uAir, or (and this is important) roll backwards. Baiting is Falcon's 101 against capable opponents, simply because Falcon is so fast and his dash-grab's reach is insane.
All of this is to say: no move is safe against Falcon. If you whiff your jab, and Falcon is aware that you were going to jab, you're going to be dash-grabbed. Oh, and if Falcon whiffs his dash-grab? Hold down A and his flash-jab comes out and interrupts your counter-attack, if you're not fast enough.

I can't say anything regarding your other claims because I don't know much about Palutena. The only experience I have with her is using her on Trophy Rush ad nauseum because of Heavenly Light. I can tell some of you have already went against good Falcons, and others went against "FOR GLORY!!" Falcons. They can overlap, but they probably don't very often...

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I've come from the Falcon Boards. I haven't played against good Palutena mains so far, so I'm not sure I'll be of much help, but I've read some pretty awful misinformation, here.


First things first, Falcon's specials are laggy, yes, but his normal moves are, for the most part, very fast and don't have much lag themselves. Specially uAir. The only exception to this are his smash attacks and the knee.

You say you guys are the jab masters? I beg to differ. In terms of speed, Falcon wins by 4 frames (check out this data: http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU ). In terms of usefulness, I believe the gentleman is a lot more useful than Palutena's multi-jab, but maybe I'm missing something here... If you try to use the multi-jab as a wall, Falcon will just wait and then dash-grab. Or attack from above with a dAir or a bAir.

Point is, good Falcons will use the jab to reset everyone to neutral in a flash (for example, right after landing, the Falcon player holds down A, Falcon instantly gets up and starts flash-jabbing). Be careful of that.

I'll give you that Palutena can KO Falcon early with smash attacks (particularly uSmash), but no way in heck the MU is 70:30 to Palutena. 60:30 is still too steep, IMO, but like I said, I'm not experienced against Palutena.


Careful with that line of thought. Good Falcons are unpredictable and fast. Raptor Boost is best used as a punisher, not as an approach, so if used correctly you simply won't have enough reaction time to counter it. Plus, a serious Falcon will never use Falcon Punch unless he's favoring being flash/insane.
Also, you forgot the knee, and dAir -> uAir/knee -> knee setups. It's a thing, and unless you know it's coming (and even if you do, because it can be a true combo) it'll be difficult to counter.



Any Falcon who approaches with Falcon Kicks isn't doing it right. Good Falcons will dash towards you, and either dash attack, dash-grab, short-jump fastfall uAir, or (and this is important) roll backwards. Baiting is Falcon's 101 against capable opponents, simply because Falcon is so fast and his dash-grab's reach is insane.
All of this is to say: no move is safe against Falcon. If you whiff your jab, and Falcon is aware that you were going to jab, you're going to be dash-grabbed. Oh, and if Falcon whiffs his dash-grab? Hold down A and his flash-jab comes out and interrupts your counter-attack, if you're not fast enough.

I can't say anything regarding your other claims because I don't know much about Palutena. The only experience I have with her is using her on Trophy Rush ad nauseum because of Heavenly Light. I can tell some of you have already went against good Falcons, and others went against "FOR GLORY!!" Falcons. They can overlap, but they probably don't very often...

Thanks for your input.

I'm not going to go super deep into my thoughts, but I thought I'd try to contribute and share em real quick.

Falcon is a speedy in-out character, has some rush down, but also some trouble approaching. Palutena is a in-out character, rushdown, but also zoning and walling, and is weak herself to extreme rushdown.

Falcon's very fast in this matchup and a good one will use his good dash to negate one of Palutena's strengths (her movement speed). Instead Palutena is often the one that's pressured to do things. (Think of Nairo's Dpit, how he just runs around all the time and grabs his opponents to punish). However, while Falcon is very fast I think given good reactions then his approach game is quite weak. Palutena has a lot of ways to stop his approaches (his dash grab, dash attack don't cover a huge range on the ground, and target a pretty specific point; his dash grab can easily miss and his dash attack slows down after the initial hitboxes come out), such as by simply grabbing him, pivot grabbing (if you have enough space on the stage to sacrifice you can easily do this to outrange anything of his), or jab1 (very strong with backwards pp, since his dash attack/grab don't cover a huge ground like for example ZSS's sliding dash attack does)

Falcon's pretty weak when rushed down himself though. If he's grabbed, he can be combo'd very easily at lower percents with dthrow fair fair etc. He can't really escape the dthrow fair, unless if he throws out a nair, but that's pretty weak when compared to other character's "break out of grab combo by throwing out an attack" moves. That will work sometimes but when accounted for, not amount to too much. Nair has lag if he uses it out of a throw like that and it stops him from doing other things. Falcon is weak to Palutena's grabs and Palu can get some nice kills combos/kills off him.

Falcon's pretty easy to gimp. Since he doesn't have good aerials to cover his front (nair is ok but it soaks up a lot of time), you can force him to recover low if he's launched far by controlling space with fair or threatening it. If he comes low then you can nair gimp for spike, stage spike, or launch him back off. Overall Palu > Falcon in terms of recovering and edgeguarding.

I think a good falcon will use his speed, and not commit too much. At first fighting random falcons it felt like the matchup was a 60:40 for Palu (which to me means advantaged) but I fought a couple decent ones at tournies and my opinion is that it's 55:45 (slightly advantaged). I still think Falcon has trouble dealing with Palu especially due to his weakness in the air in front of him and his recovery being gimpable. But I don't think it's anything too serious to one side or the other.

 

[meleebrawler]

I should have emphasized the "surprise" part of Falcon Kick since I know good Falcon players
won't use it too much, which makes it all the more difficult to react to when he does.

My point about jab is that it beats almost anything Falcon can do from a dash-in, and isn't easy
to punish consistently on whiff if she also uses moving fairs as well.

 

[Masque]

Thanks for your input, BigLord! Maybe I've just been unlucky in terms of the CFs I've faced, but I don't think there's ever been a Falcon Knee that I haven't seen coming. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen a CF use that setup in a FG match, but the fact that it registers as a true combo is terrifying.

 

[Trifroze]

I've fought against good Palutenas, one of them being the best Smash 4 player in my scene, and I haven't found this MU to be particularly problematic. He makes the character look quite amazing though. An example of his play if you want to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvHef5L6MIg

Anyway firstly a big key point, Falcon should almost never be using his specials for anything else than punishing. Falcon kick can be good for breaking zoning every now and then, but you shouldn't rely on punishing Falcon's specials in this MU or any other. Similarly, I don't think Palutena's specials play a role in this MU either. Falcon can punish all of them and he's a grab heavy character so counter is a huge risk. You also shouldn't assume that Falcon will go for a dash grab if they start running at you, presuming we are trying to analyze the MU at a high level. Good Falcons should be canceling their dashes with shield, shorthop aerials and extended dash dancing (fox trots into immediate reverse fox trots) most of the time to see how their opponents react, sometimes being able to punish it in the process as well. I'd also like to point out that Falcon's dash grab reach is longer than Link's tether grab, hence the proper way to use it is to activate it well before they're even near the opponent. Palutena does have some good options in neutral as well though, her shorthop fair is very quick and her bair and dash attack are literal walls while her pivot grab with its huge range is scary when properly utilized. Her tilts can also be used as walls, but will be punished if whiffed. If Palutena commits to her full jab combo, Falcon can hit through it with fsmash for 20% damage, shorthop dair or bair, uair to knee, or wait it out and go for a grab and punish with a 20% combo at minimum. Palutena can jab or double jab into grab if she connects, but Falcon's jab has the same quality. After all is said and done, I'd say that in neutral the two characters are quite even.

Falcon has one of if not the best advantaged state in the game, and his aerials are utilized to the fullest against tall characters because you can hit them with buffered nairs, uairs and bairs out of a shorthop. Palutena is among the tallest of characters, so this plays a big part in the MU, although I can think it's a similar thing for Palutena. However, her advantage is nowhere near as brutal as Falcon's unless you're using superspeed. Falcon has 30-50% true combos at low percents and a kill setup at 50-70% that is safe on shield against tall characters, that being falling uair into knee. Meanwhile, Palutena's dthrow can be DI'd in a way that her uair will never connect, and at higher percents nair and fair can be challenged with Falcon's uair because it comes out in 6 frames and hits in front of him. Similarly though, Falcon's dthrow combos stop working at higher percents on floaty and light characters. Both characters are fast, but Falcon is quite a bit faster being the second fastest runner in the game. In the end, Falcon's advantage is the stronger one in this MU.

Falcon is at a disadvantage compared to Palutena offstage though, but he can still usually wiggle his way through while covering his second jump with uair. Palutena's nair offstage can be a problem, although I don't find myself dying or taking considerable damage from it too often. As long as Falcon doesn't touch the gimp hitbox of it, he gets another shot at recovering because it sends him away diagonally upwards or into the stage which lets Falcon back on stage assuming the player always goes for the tech. Regardless, even though Falcon's recovery is among the worst in the game, it's still usually good enough especially when you mix up with side b. There are only 2-3 legitimately bad recoveries in the game in Little Mac, Dr. Mario and Ganondorf in my opinion, but that's another subject enitrely. Palutena doesn't have an invincible recovery by any means either, Falcon can still catch her with bairs and chase her pretty deep down with dair, but her up b is a lot less predictable than Falcon's and can be used to recover straight on stage horizontally with very low landing lag. With that in mind, Palutena is the stronger character offstage in this MU.

Falcon's jab comes out in 3 frames making it hard to get away with things against Falcon at a close range. Palutena's jab is disjointed and has more reach but it comes out on frame 7. Falcon's rapid jab has even more reach though, and the tip of it is disjointed as well. Falcon doesn't have many answers aerially though whereas Palutena at least has a decent nair for breaking out, but Falcon's aerial speed is faster than Palutena's, technically making escapes and chases a bit easier for him. Falcon has some trouble landing against Palutena's aerials, especially her excellent disjointed uair, mostly because of his attributes as a heavy fastfaller. In this sense Falcon's disadvantage is fundamentally worse than Palutena's, but because Falcon has such a strong advantaged state they are effectively even.

Lastly, and correct me if I'm wrong, Palutena doesn't have that many kill options without her superspeed dthrow to uair combo. Aside from relying on offstage kills, she has to use her smashes for this, or wait until later percents to get it with uair, bair or dash attack. Falcon on the other hand is one of the earliest KOers in the game, with some quite reliable options, while also being heavy to benefit from rage often. Falling uair (landing) into knee as I mentioned earlier is a safe on shield hit confirmation true combo that will kill Palutena at around 50% before the combo. Dthrow -> nair/uair -> knee offstage is also a frametrap that works if you try to challenge Falcon with an attack or jump out of the combo, while dair can be used to read airdodges in that scenario. You may not see FG Falcons doing these much or at all, but that's not the basis on which the MU should be judged on and I think that's why you came to the Falcon boards to ask our input, which I for one appreciate. Falcon's fsmash (angled downwards) will generally kill Palutena at around 70%, and works for more than punishing because of its range. Raptor Boost and bair kill Palutena at around 90-110%, the former being mostly a punishing option and the latter Falcon's safest and most reliable kill option. Uair kills at around 120-130% when fresh. In the end, and I think you all knew this beforehand, Falcon has the more lethal kill options and his safe moves kill earlier as well. The surprise however for some may be that Falcon has reliable setups for them.

This became a lot longer than I anticipated and I repeated some things BigLord said, if only to second them. If I had to give a number, it'd be 55:45 Falcon. Turn the numbers around with customs enabled however.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Trifroze wow yew practically got this match-up covered

This video might help

 

[Rran]

If there's one character I dread playing against... it's C. Falcon. Thanks for this thread, guys!

 

[Maraphy]

I know @ Trifroze has this matchup pretty much covered, but I think there's still some room for discussion about it. I've fought a fair share of Falcons, mostly online, and I don't know if the better ones I've faced are still considered "For Glory" Captain Falcons or not, but to me this matchup has never seemed overly difficult. It's not easy; most of Palutena's matchups are not easy. But I've never felt at much of a disadvantage, at least compared to other fast characters. Trifroze is obviously very knowledgeable and experienced with Falcon, so I'm going to pick out parts of what he said and input some knowledge from the Palutena player's perspective:

In neutral, both Falcon and Palutena have a lot of quick options. One key thing about Palutena's jab though is that a good palutena player should never commit to the full jab combo unless the first hit connects. So, there should never really be an opportunity for a Falcon player to punish her jab. Her jab has a lot of range and priority, I'm pretty sure it stops Falcon's dash grab or dash attack should he choose to approach with it, and would stop a Side B or Down B as well if he tried going for those moves (which shouldn't be often). Also, Palutena has Auto Reticle which does 3% x3 if they all hit. It seems really unsafe, but it's kind of surprising how often it can score hits on players who just aren't suspecting it or leave themselves open. Idk, I think Palutena might have just a SLIGHT advantage while in neutral. BOTH of their attacks come out very fast, but Palutena kind of outranges Falcon.

Her kill options off the top of my head that aren't D-throw -> U-air (divine hoo haa?) are b-air, dash attack, and n-air all at high percents, B-throw or U-throw at VERY high percents, or tilts/smashes. Palutena's spacing and recovery in the hands of a skilled player are apt for making her last a while, but to kill at a lower percent she needs to get a smash. Luckily, there's a few ways to circumnavigate the slowness. The first way, which is usually pretty risky, is to have a good eye and punish ANY sort of telegraphed get-up, landing lag, endlag, etc. Her speed is good enough that she can just rush in and U-smash (it comes out fairly quick, it's disjointed, and the hitbox lasts for a short duration, so it's a surprisingly good reversal). U-smash can also be used to follow up D-throw, if your opponent expects an U-air and airdodges. She has a more reliable method though; jab. If she can get a jab at higher percents it's almost guaranteed to lead into a smash. I'm sure falcon can do this as well maybe? But Palutena has priority and range on her jab. Overall, her kill options aren't as great and rely more on reads, but I think her air dominance and neutral game make up for that. That's just me

I think there's a lot that I don't know about Falcon's potential setups, but going off of Trifroze's information, and my own experiences, I would rate the matchup something more like 55 - 45 or 50 - 50. I'm leaning more towards 55-45? 50-50

 

[meleebrawler]

Palutena can also hit Falcon before he snaps to a ledge with Usmash. Requires good timing
of course, but with his limited recovery options it's not hard to get into position for it.

I can probably share a replay with one of you with the new Spotpass sharing of it.

 

[Djent]

I honestly don't see Palu doing well in this MU without customs. Triforze mostly covered it, but Falcon's long-range heavy punish game + Palutena's (somewhat) slow and laggy ground options = no fun.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Djent raises a good point. Should we be discussing these matchups with customs in mind as well, just to cover all of our bases?

 

[LyonelNoale]

@ Djent raises a good point. Should we be discussing these matchups with customs in mind as well, just to cover all of our bases?

Well, if anyone does want to cover the matchup with Customs enabled, they can, but it just seems like a lot of work to include customs as well... although in the end, it just depends on whether tournaments currently do allow customs, since that's a valuable part of the match up, as well.

 

[Djent]

Well that wasn't my point, but it's a good question anyway.

I'd vote yes, if only because 1) I'm optimistic, and 2) they make a big difference for us.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here's Falcon's customs:

B: Falcon Dash Punch: Falcon moves forward when the punch is thrown in exchange for some power.
Mighty Falcon Punch: A bigger, more powerful, but even slower Falcon Punch.

Side B: Heavy Raptor Boost: Slower startup, shorter distance, but has armour and can eat half a shield (still unsafe).
Weaker on hit, though.
Windup Raptor Boost: Falcon moves backward during startup before moving forward.

Up B: Falcon Strike: Goes higher, doesn't grab but instead hits with his fists.
Explosive Falcon Dive: Slower startup and less distance, but very high damage on hit.

Down B: Falcon Kick Fury: Moves slower but hits multiple times.
Electric Falcon Kick: Goes further, but is weaker, starts and ends slower especially in the air. (Though shockwave
has a stun effect).

Customs don't really do a whole lot for Falcon, they're mostly just preference.
Falcon Dash Punch can have a niche use in recovery from up high but that's about it.
Falcon doesn't use his specials much as noted already, and customs won't likely change that.

 

[Maraphy]

It might be easier to do another pass at everyone with customs on, after we finish the ones for default first. I don't think most people even have that much experience with customs yet since they're not usually allowed.

 

[Enrel]

@ Djent raises a good point. Should we be discussing these matchups with customs in mind as well, just to cover all of our bases?

I think it's best to go with default because of multiple reasons. One being we're not sure if we'll get more tourney's with Customs enabled. That and it's best to have characters fight as they were originally designed. In the raw if you will.