Data Palutena's Match Ups - NEW FORMAT: ALL CHARACTER DISCUSSION

[Underhill]

No, it does work. I have plenty of experience in the match up and the startup has never been an issue.

Easy for you, but for me, I just can't use it like Lucina's or Little Mac or find any use out of it without getting read.

 

[wpwood]

I try to use counter a minimum of once or twice a match, that way my opponent isn't expecting it and I can catch them off guard. I'd rather not have to rely on a counter for my kills since it requires my opponent to actually hit me after seeing the counter come out, and since her counter is slower than most it's not the most optimal move to use.


Can we cover the match up next. I seem to struggle in that MU and would like help in it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Question----------------------------------------------------------------------
What thread would I go to to discuss walking as a tech? It's not an advanced but just an underused tech.

 

[PHP]

Why did they got to give her a crapper counter XD 's suck too, but his kills. They buff 's toad, but don't buff up the goddess's counter.

I never did try celestial firework. Mostly because Lightweight is one of the best customs in the game and it has way more uses.

Basically it has invincibility on start up while sending a firework a short distance away. It's a better defensive tool because you're not screwed it your opponent uses a charged smash attack. It also hits grounded opponents and it combos off of down throw. It should also be noted that it kills later than down throw> up air, but it will hit an opponent that DIs away after down throw scense the hit box is in front of her. It's far better than counter.

 

[meleebrawler]

No, it does work. I have plenty of experience in the match up and the startup has never been an issue.

The idiotic hitbox placement on counter is a far greater obstacle than the startup...

 

[PHP]

All we can do is pray she gets buffs to her special and her frame data like Ike in 1.1.3

 

[Underhill]

Basically it has invincibility on start up while sending a firework a short distance away. It's a better defensive tool because you're not screwed it your opponent uses a charged smash attack. It also hits grounded opponents and it combos off of down throw. It should also be noted that it kills later than down throw> up air, but it will hit an opponent that DIs away after down throw scense the hit box is in front of her. It's far better than counter.

All we can do is pray she gets buffs to her special and her frame data like Ike in 1.1.3

Ok, I'll test it out when I get a chance. Thanks for the info and I hope they do give her better frame data on her moves, and give less lag and more knockback on her counter to be more useful.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

The worst part is it doesn't seem to be affected by the amount of kb she would receive but rather the amount of damage. I couldn't even KO a Zard that was at 110% after countering his flare blitz. This counter has waaaaaaaay more risk than reward it's stupid. You would need to counter something as powerful as a warlock punch if you actually want to take a stock.

It's only good for catching sex kicks so it's pretty much useless

Edit: as a matter of fact, celestial firework makes a better defensive move because the hit box and invincibility frames come out weather or not you get hit. So it's basically a better counter...than her counter

That's not her Counter being bad, that's Flare Blitz being weird. It has multiple weak KB hitboxes that deal damage before the final hitbox that actually KOs things. This also happens to Marth, Ike, Roy, and even Shulk.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Question----------------------------------------------------------------------
What thread would I go to to discuss walking as a tech? It's not an advanced but just an underused tech.

General thread or make one, I guess.

HEYO OFF TOPIC
Walking is crazy underrated for most of the cast, but feels meh on Palu. Palu's tilts mostly suck, Palu's Dsmash mostly sucks, so all we're really getting access to outside of specific situations (basicaly someone coming down on us, walk under and utilt, someone coming down on us in free fall but a lot of air control so their landing position is ambiguous, Dsmash to cover a large area) is Jab. Jab out of movement is great and all but not like what other characters gain from walks.

 

[PHP]

That's not her Counter being bad, that's Flare Blitz being weird. It has multiple weak KB hitboxes that deal damage before the final hitbox that actually KOs things. This also happens to Marth, Ike, Roy, and even Shulk.

Still doesn't excuse it's low bkb and kbg

 

[Wintropy]

General thread or make one, I guess.

HEYO OFF TOPIC
Walking is crazy underrated for most of the cast, but feels meh on Palu. Palu's tilts mostly suck, Palu's Dsmash mostly sucks, so all we're really getting access to outside of specific situations (basicaly someone coming down on us, walk under and utilt, someone coming down on us in free fall but a lot of air control so their landing position is ambiguous, Dsmash to cover a large area) is Jab. Jab out of movement is great and all but not like what other characters gain from walks.

I had this very discussion recently and came to the same conclusion.

That said, I'm now wondering if there's more to it than I considered.

Palutena's tilts have their uses, especially in terms of beating rolls and spotdodges or punishing approaches. If I'm fighting an opponent that loves to run in and grab or has a habit of back-rolling to cover distance, f-tilt or d-tilt can cover it. Jab (especially multi-jab) is equally good at beating spotdodges and opponents that try to run in with non-disjointed moves.

Then there's the fact that Palutena's foxtrot is pretty damn good. She gets good mileage from her burst dash, which, when used in conjunction with walking and dashing, can be used for some good dash attack mixups. Since dash attack is best used to poke the opponent back or beat out stronger moves, it is a good burst followup. This gets the opponent into the air, which can be followed up with aerials depending on how they DI. Very underrated option, in my opinion.

This is why I think Palutena doesn't have that much difficulty with high-tier characters that require precision over reaction, for example Ike and Ryu. I don't think she beats either character, but I think her ability to vary her movement options and punish good setups with said movement options' followups is worth considering.

 

[wpwood]

Last thing walk: I think combination of walking with perfect pivoting into an up tilt or f-tilt depending on the distance has great uses.

Can we cover the match up next.

 

[Wintropy]

Don't try to punish Yoshi off-stage unless you just want to tack on extra damage.

I figured that out the hard way.

 

[PHP]

Last thing walk: I think combination of walking with perfect pivoting into an up tilt or f-tilt depending on the distance has great uses.

Can we cover the match up next.

If Yoshi feels like spamming eggs then you can use AR to beat it out

 

[wpwood]

So who do we think the overall match up is better for and by how much? I thought it might have been more for Yoshi but I guess if I change up my play style a little bit and respect Yoshi's nair more it could be more for Palutena.

What stage do we think is best to fight a yoshi on? I know Dream Land is Palutena's best stage followed by BF because of the low ceiling on DL and ledge canceling warp on the platforms on BF and DL. Although Delfino has the lowest ceilings and I haven't really tried working with canceling warp on those platforms.

 

[Maraphy]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3pvaix/i_made_a_matchupchart_web_app_select_your/

I took a crack at this, but there are a few matchups I'm entirely unsure about. Opinions? Questions?

full view: http://orig10.deviantart.net/5b3f/f/2015/296/d/1/palutena_matchup_v1_by_marraphy-d9e4mq8.png

 

[Underhill]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3pvaix/i_made_a_matchupchart_web_app_select_your/

I took a crack at this, but there are a few matchups I'm entirely unsure about. Opinions? Questions?

full view: http://orig10.deviantart.net/5b3f/f/2015/296/d/1/palutena_matchup_v1_by_marraphy-d9e4mq8.png

Sonic, Yoshi, ZZS, CF, Sheik, and Ness. I disagree with because the MUs are in their favors. I don't think Pikachu is really that bad, but I'll go for 60:40 in his favor though. Ike, too because even though his ko options are better and benefits more from rage, Ike's appoarches are somewhat predictable for her, gets jiggled by up-airs, and he can't throw laggy moves for her to punish. I'm not sure about Mario, but I think that the MU is even or slightly in his favor.
Pretty much it because I just disagree with ,,,, and since they're hard MUs for Palutena while withalittle because he's not really that bad like with 65:35, but its 60:40 though in Pikachu's favor. , IDK because he has better frame data, jiggling game, safer moves, rush her down, and pressure as well. Also , because I think that the MU is slighty in his favor, but there's no way that MU is that bad for Palutena. These are my opinions and the chart may looks like its outdated or something to me. Feel free to ask me if questions are needed to be answered.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3pvaix/i_made_a_matchupchart_web_app_select_your/

I took a crack at this, but there are a few matchups I'm entirely unsure about. Opinions? Questions?

full view: http://orig10.deviantart.net/5b3f/f/2015/296/d/1/palutena_matchup_v1_by_marraphy-d9e4mq8.png

Personally, I'm just not seeing a Sheik and ZSS 50/50 at all. I also feel that Mario wins against us, though not by a ton.
I think we either beat Villager or go even with him; we have good, unique options for shutting down a lot of his normal game.


Personally I think Rosa is far worse than Pikachu.

 

[Maraphy]

Sonic, Yoshi, ZZS, CF, Sheik, and Ness. I disagree with because the MUs are in their favors. I don't think Pikachu is really that bad, but I'll go for 60:40 in his favor though. Ike, too because even though his ko options are better and benefits more from rage, Ike's appoarches are somewhat predictable for her, gets jiggled by up-airs, and he can't throw laggy moves for her to punish. I'm not sure about Mario, but I think that the MU is even or slightly in his favor.
Pretty much it because I just disagree with ,,,, and since they're hard MUs for Palutena while withalittle because he's not really that bad like with 65:35, but its 60:40 though in Pikachu's favor. , IDK because he has better frame data, jiggling game, safer moves, rush her down, and pressure as well. Also , because I think that the MU is slighty in his favor, but there's no way that MU is that bad for Palutena. These are my opinions and the chart may looks like its outdated or something to me. Feel free to ask me if questions are needed to be answered.

Personally, I'm just not seeing a Sheik and ZSS 50/50 at all. I also feel that Mario wins against us, though not by a ton.
I think we either beat Villager or go even with him; we have good, unique options for shutting down a lot of his normal game.


Personally I think Rosa is far worse than Pikachu.

Incoming long post, so I can elaborate on my decisions in the MU chart:
[My opinions obviously don't represent every Palutena, but these are from personal experience in the matches I've played against these characters]

In the matches I've played against , , and , I could see it being 55-45 in their favor, In fact I would definitely feel comfortable saying 55-45 for ZSS, maybe even slightly more in her favor, but I don't think Palu has an extremely difficult time in these matchups. Sheik has an easy time wailing on Palutena early in a stock, but at higher percents it gets harder for her to combo / kill, whereas Palu is consistent through pretty much the whole fight. Although ZSS has some really good kill options, I think Palu can hold her own with her in neutral since ZSS's grounded options are mostly punishable. Mario can be scary throughout the stock since he has quick tilts and smashes, but I've never really found him overwhelming; our neutral game can pose a threat as well and we can certainly threaten him in the air.

As for , I COULD maybe see it being 55-45, especially now that he's been indirectly buffed from the shield stun changes (I haven't fought many Yoshis post-1.1.1 though so most of my MU experience is from old Yoshi). He is tricky to fight but he relies a lot on eggs to start anything, which can be reflected or avoided. He can jump or hit you out of jab combos which is annoying, but I've always felt that this matchup was do-able?

Either I haven't fought enough s (probably the case) or... he's kind of joke. You can just shield his spin dash approach and then jump and B-air him every time... also jab and fair (and pretty much anything really) beat him out of spin dash. His smashes can be punished. He's susceptible to juggling from N-airs and U-Airs because he has no good moves that hit below him.

We've discussed for a while in this thread before, but I still think it's about 50-50. Falcon has a good ground game against her with dash attacks, dashing grabs, u-airs, and jabs (though we have grabs, jabs, and f-airs and b-airs, so it's not like we're completely out-played). His aerials are to be respected, but we pretty much beat him in the air. Our off-stage game is really good against him as well; he has a hard time spiking us since we have our U-air and Warp, meanwhile he can be gimped/ko'd/stage spiked by N-air when we're on the offensive. I actually love getting Falcons on FG because I think it's such an even MU. A lot of the time people will switch to Falcon to counter my Palu, and then they rush in aggressively and don't realize that the MU isn't as one-sided as they think. Maybe I've just fought an unusual amount of Falcons though?

again I think is just dead even. Both characters pretty much fish for throws -> aerials, and both can reflect/absorb the other's projectile. Both characters have a killing B-throw, though his kills significantly earlier than ours. In general, Palutena outranges him, but his close-range attacks come out quicker. He has more grounded kill options, but we have more aerial / offstage kill options I think, and better recovery. (You can outright hit him out of PK Thunder, or you can go for a disrespectful Reflect to push him away and screw up his aim ) overall I feel like this all balances out.

I might just not have enough experience, but I feel like this matchup is HARD. His sword completely outranges anything Palutena can do. B-air is an option, at least.

Not too sure about but I've always had trouble with him, moreso than any of the other top tiers. I'd be comfortable saying he's on the same level as Fox, though.

Tbh I would have rated higher, but I'm starting to have some hope for this matchup because like he's actually much easier to gimp/ko off-stage than other characters in Palu's perspective. So while I would've rated those MUs something like 70-30 or even 80-20 in the past, I think they might actually be winnable (with a HUGE amount of work. they demolish Palu on-stage, so she has to work really hard to get them off)

For and : Honestly I don't have a ton of experience with these MUs, but I agree that Rosalina could be a little more than just 60-40. For Villager though I'm not sure.. like, yeah we can reflect most of their stuff but they've got tons of quick close-range options. They can still use projectiles for pressure regardless if you reflect them or not, and then abuse reflect's endlag to punish. BUT idk, I haven't faced a ton of Villagers

/opinions
sorry this was so long!

 

[Underhill]

Incoming long post, so I can elaborate on my decisions in the MU chart:
[My opinions obviously don't represent every Palutena, but these are from personal experience in the matches I've played against these characters]

In the matches I've played against , , and , I could see it being 55-45 in their favor, In fact I would definitely feel comfortable saying 55-45 for ZSS, maybe even slightly more in her favor, but I don't think Palu has an extremely difficult time in these matchups. Sheik has an easy time wailing on Palutena early in a stock, but at higher percents it gets harder for her to combo / kill, whereas Palu is consistent through pretty much the whole fight. Although ZSS has some really good kill options, I think Palu can hold her own with her in neutral since ZSS's grounded options are mostly punishable. Mario can be scary throughout the stock since he has quick tilts and smashes, but I've never really found him overwhelming; our neutral game can pose a threat as well and we can certainly threaten him in the air.

As for , I COULD maybe see it being 55-45, especially now that he's been indirectly buffed from the shield stun changes (I haven't fought many Yoshis post-1.1.1 though so most of my MU experience is from old Yoshi). He is tricky to fight but he relies a lot on eggs to start anything, which can be reflected or avoided. He can jump or hit you out of jab combos which is annoying, but I've always felt that this matchup was do-able?

Either I haven't fought enough s (probably the case) or... he's kind of joke. You can just shield his spin dash approach and then jump and B-air him every time... also jab and fair (and pretty much anything really) beat him out of spin dash. His smashes can be punished. He's susceptible to juggling from N-airs and U-Airs because he has no good moves that hit below him.

We've discussed for a while in this thread before, but I still think it's about 50-50. Falcon has a good ground game against her with dash attacks, dashing grabs, u-airs, and jabs (though we have grabs, jabs, and f-airs and b-airs, so it's not like we're completely out-played). His aerials are to be respected, but we pretty much beat him in the air. Our off-stage game is really good against him as well; he has a hard time spiking us since we have our U-air and Warp, meanwhile he can be gimped/ko'd/stage spiked by N-air when we're on the offensive. I actually love getting Falcons on FG because I think it's such an even MU. A lot of the time people will switch to Falcon to counter my Palu, and then they rush in aggressively and don't realize that the MU isn't as one-sided as they think. Maybe I've just fought an unusual amount of Falcons though?

again I think is just dead even. Both characters pretty much fish for throws -> aerials, and both can reflect/absorb the other's projectile. Both characters have a killing B-throw, though his kills significantly earlier than ours. In general, Palutena outranges him, but his close-range attacks come out quicker. He has more grounded kill options, but we have more aerial / offstage kill options I think, and better recovery. (You can outright hit him out of PK Thunder, or you can go for a disrespectful Reflect to push him away and screw up his aim ) overall I feel like this all balances out.

I might just not have enough experience, but I feel like this matchup is HARD. His sword completely outranges anything Palutena can do. B-air is an option, at least.

Not too sure about but I've always had trouble with him, moreso than any of the other top tiers. I'd be comfortable saying he's on the same level as Fox, though.

Tbh I would have rated higher, but I'm starting to have some hope for this matchup because like he's actually much easier to gimp/ko off-stage than other characters in Palu's perspective. So while I would've rated those MUs something like 70-30 or even 80-20 in the past, I think they might actually be winnable (with a HUGE amount of work. they demolish Palu on-stage, so she has to work really hard to get them off)

For and : Honestly I don't have a ton of experience with these MUs, but I agree that Rosalina could be a little more than just 60-40. For Villager though I'm not sure.. like, yeah we can reflect most of their stuff but they've got tons of quick close-range options. They can still use projectiles for pressure regardless if you reflect them or not, and then abuse reflect's endlag to punish. BUT idk, I haven't faced a ton of Villagers

/opinions
sorry this was so long!

No problem, man.
: I'll have to go with 60:40 in CF's favor because he can pressure her, has better ground game than she does, has better ko options and can kill Palutena early, especially with rage and she's light, and can jiggle her as well and give her trouble landing with his mix ups. Plus, he's safer than her and has a better punishment game so she have to be safeand walling him out while getting in damage.

&: Yeah, not bad MUs for Palutena so she'll be fine against these two, but still slighty in their favor, though because they're safe and can bring pressure on her.

: Her jiggling game is scary, especially against Palutena along with her rushdown game, damage racking, and pressure., too. Difficult to gimp, too. I'll bring up 60:40 at best.

&: Worst MUs because she has to play safe at all times and can't afford to get punished. Plus, getting the kill, especially against Sonic can be tough, too.

:Not a bad MU, but yeah, she can still be tough to beat, thanks to superior jiggling game, better frame data, and better ground game(especially with Luma).

: Small size can be a pain along with better frame data, jiggling game, punishes, and pressure, but he's not that bad to deal with and 60:40 in his favor. Palutena's air game is better because she beats his aerials with f-air, b-airs, and up-airs to jiggle and kill him, too. Spacing if you do so correctly without getting punished and his ko potential is lacking as well so don't make it too easy for him and make him work for it.

:I can't say much about him due to lack of experience and haven't fought good Yoshis, but yeah, this MU can be tough for her.

These are my opinions so feel free to ask if needed.

 

[TLTC]

Sheik is Palutena's worst matchup by a pretty good margin. If the Sheik plays defensive there is little that Palutena can do to win outside of the hardest of reads due to poor frame data, lag on hits, and the fact that Sheik will just 50/50 you off a grab. From playing Sheiks such as Larry/K9/Vinnie I have no idea how it could even been seen as even remotely even. You aren't going to beat a Sheik that knows the MU unless you play out of your mind.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

In the matches I've played against , , and , I could see it being 55-45 in their favor, In fact I would definitely feel comfortable saying 55-45 for ZSS, maybe even slightly more in her favor, but I don't think Palu has an extremely difficult time in these matchups. Sheik has an easy time wailing on Palutena early in a stock, but at higher percents it gets harder for her to combo / kill, whereas Palu is consistent through pretty much the whole fight. Although ZSS has some really good kill options, I think Palu can hold her own with her in neutral since ZSS's grounded options are mostly punishable. Mario can be scary throughout the stock since he has quick tilts and smashes, but I've never really found him overwhelming; our neutral game can pose a threat as well and we can certainly threaten him in the air.

I'm really not seeing it. Sheik has a hard time killing, but so do we. Frankly, I think we have a MUCH harder time killing compared to Sheik who has nasty kill setups. Coupled with her insane neutral and better reward, and extremely safe recovery, I just don't see what we're supposed to be doing to be a match with her.

I honestly don't feel too bad about ZSS in neutral but I wouldn't say we beat her, and her reward is much better and her kill setups are VERY real. She also wrecks us in CQC

Mario also has an easier time killing and much better reward off of grabs, but that one's not as bad as the other two.

For and : Honestly I don't have a ton of experience with these MUs, but I agree that Rosalina could be a little more than just 60-40. For Villager though I'm not sure.. like, yeah we can reflect most of their stuff but they've got tons of quick close-range options. They can still use projectiles for pressure regardless if you reflect them or not, and then abuse reflect's endlag to punish. BUT idk, I haven't faced a ton of Villagers!

The matchup I probably have the most experience with is probably Villager, at least around my mid level of play. However, I have also played my State's best player, a Villager main, a couple of times, and honestly at times felt like Palu was doing as much work herself as I was. One of the primary ways that villager ends up doing damage is through slingshots/stuff out of slingshot pressure, which we don't have to deal with. Reflect also stops Loyd and Dash Attack, and that's pretty much his range game right there. At a mid range, if we put up Reflect, he has a very hard time dealing with it unless he has a read on us putting it out and drops in there with a Nair, which isn't going to lead to anything huge. He has hella slow movement speed so if you don't want to be close enough to him to Nair and Jab, you really don't have to. Reflect when he's on the ledge and he has to treat the ledge like every other character, though shielding also accomplishes this to a lesser extent. Shield is hella good against villager in general, who has one of the slowest grabs in the game; it's slower than some tether grabs.

While you're probably not going to gimp him unless you get a really well placed move or pop one balloon super low, since he can't hit you out of Balloon Trip there's really not reason not to go out there and get some damage with nair or something.

It's not like we really have anything great on him offensively though, which is why I'm not sure it's really an advantage and might just be even. When playing the matchup, I'd seriously consider forcing it to time if you get the opportunity; Villager just really struggles to make stuff happen against Palu if you don't give him the chance.

---

Not bothering to quote the specific sections since I feel less strongly about these, but:

Eeven though Falcon's recovery is HILARIOUSLY gimpable, his advantage state is great and I feel like he has better options in neutral, too. He also destroys us in CQC

I don't think Palu outranges Ness quite as decisively as you say, because he's got some solid disjoints, and his rewards off of grab are better than ours both in damage and kill power--I do think he has a harder time getting a grab than us though. Still, I don't feel too awful about this matchup and reflect kills are hilarious.

Jab can stop spindash but I think that puts us in a bad situation, the characters are basically forced into CQC and if they're both prepared, Sonic is going to beat us there. If the Sonic you fight isn't trash, he's probably not going to just be Spindashing your shield either. Sonic Dash grab happens hella fast and goes hella far.

Everything else in your post I either have no beef with or don't have enough experience to comment on.

 

[miniada]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3pvaix/i_made_a_matchupchart_web_app_select_your/

I took a crack at this, but there are a few matchups I'm entirely unsure about. Opinions? Questions?

full view: http://orig10.deviantart.net/5b3f/f/2015/296/d/1/palutena_matchup_v1_by_marraphy-d9e4mq8.png

How did you make that is that a website or something?.

 

[Maraphy]

How did you make that is that a website or something?.

In that reddit link is a link to the website

 

[lRasha]

In my experience, Palutena has a favorable matchup against Jigglypuff.

 

[Lunacywastaken]

EDIT: Didn't realised that everyone are currently discussing ZSS and Sonic. My b~

I'm quite new with Palutena, but I'll give it a shot for the few MUs I know:

-2

-1

0

+1

+2

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...5oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=LVkhw3SKhdpHULrWH9Gh2 we are discussing palutena and would love your input

 

[wpwood]

I think Palu's worst match up is actually Pikachu. He's small, fast, and can kill. With Palu's slower moves it's kinda hard to hit that small of a target and it's also hard to get the grab. Sheik is probably the second worst match up. That's why I don't play Palu for those 2 match ups. IDK who to pick up for pika though. I find Peach to be in a much better match up against Sheik than Palu.

 

[Kathuzada]

Has Rosalina been discussed? Given my other character is Ness I feel I will be playing Palutena in this match up

 

[wpwood]

Well the obvious is kill Luma. You still need to respect Rosa some even when Luma is gone, but not nearly as much. Bair or nair is probably the best way to kill Luma; dash attack works too if you get the chance. Thankfully up smash can hit Rosa on the 2 frame window, but I haven't practiced that enough and prefer to practice landing dair, given that it could kill at earlier percents. If you don't think you can land either nair is a good option as well. Rosa is light which means up air kills sooner than on most characters. Just be careful on getting down throw follow ups with Luma around. Rosa likes her aerials, but Palutenta has an invincible bair. Do not over extend with any move because Rosa has the better punish game. Although, over extending is kind of an obvious thing not to do in any match up, but I say that because Rosa's moves are deceptive and have very little end lag. If you feel more confident in your ability to avoid Rosa's up air and that you can land yours take her to a lower ceiling and make use of that. I think that's about it, might be some things I forgot but the others could fill in or correct me.

If Palutena's moves were faster I'd give the match a 50/50 but as of now I say 40/60 for Rosa.

Edit: So uh, what now? Can we do sonic? I honestly don't know what to do against Sonic and find spin dash to be the most BS move in the game.

 

[Saltyman]

I made a video on the Palutena vs Pikachu matchup I didn't have the best replays but I've played some really good pikachus in tournament before and it's more or less the same fight just need to be more careful. It's not like a winning matchup, but being able to shut down thunderbolt and punish quick attack hard really helps Palutena. Disjointed long lasting hitboxes and invincibility are also great against Pikachu

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Palutena matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[PHP]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Palutena matchup. Any input is appreciated.

Olimar? I don't know that matchup at all. All he can do is damage you indirectly and Palutena can literally just avoid grabs and poke at him all day and even reflect his smash attacks back at him. All Olimar can really do is use aerials but above Palutena is one of the worst places you could be. I'd say rush her down but I don't think Olimar can rush down. Baiting reflect is the best thing you can do.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Palutena again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/411699/

 

[SonicNKnux]

Last thing walk: I think combination of walking with perfect pivoting into an up tilt or f-tilt depending on the distance has great uses.

Can we cover the match up next.

You can get away with many jabs, counters and smash attacks fighting Yoshi. Unlike Fox who can run up to you, get his hits in, run out and repeat Yoshi has to fly himself into you almost all of the time if he's not using eggs a lot. This means you can use f-tilt and dash attack if he's on the ground and u-tilt and reflect if in the air. Yoshi's high air mobility means that if he decides to back off in mid-air when you reflect the wind box will push him pretty far. If he has you in a juggle it's better to either DI in whatever direction you're flying in or to counter the next hit as opposed to trying to challenge. I've found u-air beats out Yoshi's down-b after he starts it. I believe jab stops his dash attack but he may recover faster than we can. Counter or d-smash the Egg Roll.

Approaching carelessly will get you tongue-grabbed, especially when near the edge. Hop and jump with f-air frequently; it'll keep him from attempting to grab you as much. Reflecting the eggs can be a pain since he's able to arch them over the barrier so it may be better to just shield. U-smash and the wind box on f-smash are your friends against slow approaches. If you defend on the ground well enough you' ll force him into the air which makes it easier for n-air, b-air and u-smash. In the air, unless you can hit him with those moves it's probably best to concede air superiority and focus on where he lands with a dash attack. Turtle well and fight him from the ground.


On :
That Luma thing? Pushover. Don't fear it. Ram it out of the way. Use strong attacks such as dash attacks and smashes; Luma will muscle through your weaker moves. Neither Reflect nor tilts will knock it away, and repeatedly jabbing it to death allows Rosalina to close in. You need to land those smashes as well; wind boxes won't blow it away. Reflect Barrier will bounce Luma Shot, but not Star Bits and hardly Luma itself if at all. Abuse your invincibility. Many Rosalina players don't want to part with their Luma, so if you smack Luma you may tag her as well. Autoreticle works well from a distance but remember if fired too close it can still target Luma, giving Rosalina a free approach.

After Luma is out the way? Rosalina has a good b-air to approach with, her but n-air and f-air are challenged with your own b-air and punished with u-smash. Jab is a valid option when on the ground but keep in mind Rosalina can recover from her d-tilt and f-tilt pretty quickly. Your f-tilt is largely useless as Rosalina is not going to approach head on. You never want Rosalina directly above you, so keep moving. Use Jab and d-tilt to poke, and whenever she's too close use Reflect and u-tilt as she's a pretty tall character. Rosalina is pretty fast (to me) on the ground and and has a deceptive dash grab. Reckless smashing should cease until Luma reappears. Take notice if Rosalina decides to go offensive in tandem with Luma, that will be your cue to start countering. Play your grab game as you see fit after Luma is out.

Overall not too difficult of a matchup for Palutena as she has the tools to break Luma. Rosalina herself is the harder fight. The matches will be long, though.


I would say her hardest matchups are and fast, short characters. On stages with few or no platforms Sheik is hardly a bigger problem than Mario.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Rosa seems like one of Palu's worst matchups. She's a character who can ignore our grab combos, force us to approach, and who kills our fairly-light selves off the top very early. She effectively ignores any strengths Palu might have and makes for a very uphill battle.

Bair can be useful for getting rid of Luma but it's hard for us to make a lot happen while she's gone.

 

[PHP]

Can we please discuss the Bayonetta matchup next? With this $5.99 threat running around placing high at tournaments and zero to deathing people at 0% it would probably be in our best interest to discuss her...now!

 

[SonicNKnux]

Can we please discuss the Bayonetta matchup next? With this $5.99 threat running around placing high at tournaments and zero to deathing people at 0% it would probably be in our best interest to discuss her...now!

As I also play Bayonetta, I'll try.
Remember that nice dash speed we have? This is the match to use it in. A lot.

Horizontal movement is key. Bayonetta can't hurt you (badly) if she can't catch you. Our Reflect can bounce Bullet Climax, but not Bullet Arts. Tilting is almost a death sentence here; they're all so long Bayonetta can walk right up and counter them with exception to u-tilt. As a Bayonetta, I look for long moves that can't be stopped. If you Autoreticle and she counters a shot with Witch Time, you will be slowed from however far away you are and she will raze you with something ugly.

I should note my own 0-death here works on Palutena as well. Every. Single. Time.

That said, she can be fought.

First off, to clarify: With the exception of my string, which admittedly only works on certain characters (but with high success), those scary combos you see are not only hard to set up in the moment but require some sacrifice like double jumps or second After Burner Kicks offstage (I have KO'd quite a few Pikachu with my string though and they were just livid as Pika is one of those helpless characters). And as I am the only one I've seen who uses mine, don't worry about them.

Watch for the juggle launchers to any universal combos: d-throw, d-tilt, u-tilt and f-tilt 1,2,3 will all launch you from the ground. N-air and u-air will tag you in the air. I advise against dash attacking unless she's in your face; if she counters it, our invincibility will nullify all attacks from the front. Palutena's thick, so unless Bayonetta has rage f-throw from the edge won't kill us for a while. Rage b-air, however, will kill near the edge. Kill moves also include u-air and any held smashes (such as out of a counter) after 110%. Bayo can try to catch you with an f-air string offstage for a KO, or edgeguard with d-air then shoot back up with Witch Twist in an attempt to catch you on the way up after your second jump to knock you away. If she clips you with d-air, that's it. Use mid-air Reflect for the former tactic, air stall with something like Counter for the latter.

You want to jab and use aerials. Her ground moves are slow to start so jabbing gives us the advantage. Jab halts the slide and b-air beats anything else including smashes. F-air to space; Bayonetta will win in long CQC sessions as her limbs are too long. If a reflect seems bad, just run. You can't reflect Bullet Arts but you can counter it, remember this if she falls into you with a held aerial. Also, reflecting will keep her from stringing you with f-air and cause After Burner Kick to fly over you ala Monkey Flip/Flare Blitz/Skull Bash, setting you up for an u-tilt if on the ground. Bayo has to get really clse to grab you, so don't expect many if you keep moving.

Bayonetta is a light character. Provided you keep in mind the things I mentioned above, you can KO Bayonetta with light attacks (d-tilt/u-tilt) before she KO's you provided she doesn't land too many counters on you as counter combos will end you swiftly. If she's countering you a lot, you're attacking too much. Focus on moving around her. If you must tilt, use u-tilt for its hitboxes. Punish missed air counters with u-smash with all your might. Lastly, utilize ducking and d-tilt. Bullet Climax will miss and Bayo's f-tilt may miss.

Bayonetta matches can either be laughably short or stressfully long. Every time I play this matchup, my brain plays Duel of the Fates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkbnWW4sgng

 

[M]

^^^ I see a Donkey Kong that isn't DIing.

 

[SonicNKnux]

^^^ I see a Donkey Kong that isn't DIing.

Oh, rest assured, I ran that combo on every character multiple times, and that was only Day 3. The only way DK's getting out of that string at a low percentage is from airdodging an offensive error.

 

[M]

You misunderstand. Bayo combos with fair strings can very easily be DI'd/Smash DI'd down&away. Your combo shouldnt be working. DABK > DABK > upB > upB is more optimal...

I honestly only think Palutena loses this matchup because Witch Time is too strong a punish on our fair/jab confirm game.