Palutena needs to be slightly nerfed - she is OP

[Opossum]

Palutena was borderline unusable in Smash 4, which sucked since she was among my most wanted newcomers. Now she's totally viable and an actual character, not a slapdash collection of moves that don't even work as intended.

It's way too early to be calling for nerfs. When you seek to eliminate anything that sets a character apart and makes them usable, you seek to homogenize the cast, and that's just not cool.

 

[Slugma128]

Palutena was borderline unusable in Smash 4, which sucked since she was among my most wanted newcomers. Now she's totally viable and an actual character, not a slapdash collection of moves that don't even work as intended.

It's way too early to be calling for nerfs. When you seek to eliminate anything that sets a character apart and makes them usable, you seek to homogenize the cast, and that's just not cool.

I could never imagine it is so difficult for people to read. The problem is aerial spam, and Palutena has one of the worst. Combine that with the rest of her moves and you get a slightly OP character who they probably boosted a bit too much (because as you say, she was worthless on Wii U). And aerial spam does not mean she does the same attack over and over again, it means her spammy aerials are very easy to use in dynamic ways combined with the rest of her moves.

 

[Perversion]

OK, if you are going to cherry pick my quotes to make me look bad or contradicting then I am not going to have a civil discussion with you. Join the media, they love what you are doing.

Also, using moves in dynamic ways is skill, but spammy moves are much easier to do so with. Hence the problems.

You weren't having a civil discussion with anyone to begin with. All you've been doing is complaining and not taking advice and flaming people who actually want to help. Cherry picking quotes? Sure, but the context was the same within all of it, so it makes no difference. You have been looking bad since your first response where you were reported for flaming, what is happening is that you're doing this to yourself and like with Palutena. You are blaming it on everything else but yourself.

Okay, so Snake spamming Grenades (which is what we do) is something you can't adapt to? Good, then by your reasoning Snake should be nerfed, but his character is built this way to gain stage control. He's weak to hard rushdown. He has to recover high. However, instead of using the information you have ascertain to counter this, you want him nerfed. You see, this can be directly correlated to Palutena. Observe and exploit the weaknesses instead of calling for nerfs and get better at the game. What you're doing is advocating for the cast to be bland and as Opossum said homogenized, which makes for a crappy fighting game.

I could never imagine it is so difficult for people to read. The problem is aerial spam, and Palutena has one of the worst. Combine that with the rest of her moves and you get a slightly OP character who they probably boosted a bit too much (because as you say, she was worthless on Wii U). And aerial spam does not mean she does the same attack over and over again, it means her spammy aerials are very easy to use in dynamic ways combined with the rest of her moves.

You ask if people can read, yet you fail to actually read my input on how to counteract aerial spam.

 

[T-Donor66]

I could never imagine it is so difficult for people to read. The problem is aerial spam, and Palutena has one of the worst. Combine that with the rest of her moves and you get a slightly OP character who they probably boosted a bit too much (because as you say, she was worthless on Wii U). And aerial spam does not mean she does the same attack over and over again, it means her spammy aerials are very easy to use in dynamic ways combined with the rest of her moves.

Is “aerial spam” the new buzzword? If you are having trouble getting past any kind of “spam” (the kind where a lackluster player is abusing the same options repeatedly), then you are the one you needs to learn how to punish and to get better. “Git gud” genuinely applies here.

 

[Slugma128]

You weren't having a civil discussion with anyone to begin with. All you've been doing is complaining and not taking advice and flaming people who actually want to help. Cherry picking quotes? Sure, but the context was the same within all of it, so it makes no difference. You have been looking bad since your first response where you were reported for flaming, what is happening is that you're doing this to yourself and like with Palutena. You are blaming it on everything else but yourself.

Okay, so Snake spamming Grenades (which is what we do) is something you can't adapt to? Good, then by your reasoning Snake should be nerfed, but his character is built this way to gain stage control. He's weak to hard rushdown. He has to recover high. However, instead of using the information you have ascertain to counter this, you want him nerfed. You see, this can be directly correlated to Palutena. Observe and exploit the weaknesses instead of calling for nerfs and get better at the game. What you're doing is advocating for the cast to be bland and as Opossum said homogenized, which makes for a crappy fighting game.



You ask if people can read, yet you fail to actually read my input on how to counteract aerial spam.

It is not advice when people reply to things I have not said or misunderstanding what I mean. You do not seem to get the difference between spamming one attack in succession and spamming an attack in a dynamic way.

I am very self critial and I can tell right away when I play against someone better. But I can also tell right away when moves are OP because they are so easy to use and so powerful.

Is “aerial spam” the new buzzword? If you are having trouble getting past any kind of “spam” (the kind where a lackluster player is abusing the same options repeatedly), then you are the one you needs to learn how to punish and to get better. “Git gud” genuinely applies here.

You can not punish spam when the spam is executed by ace players. Let us see how many times I will have to repeat this now.

Spam by low skilled player = doing the same attack over and over again
Spam by high skilled player = using the OP of an attack to gain an unfair advantage by using it a lot, but not over and over again

 

[Opossum]

But I can also tell right away when moves are OP because they are so easy to use and so powerful.

That's not what makes a move OP. A move is only OP when it has little to no counterplay. Palutena in general has counterplay going against her.

 

[Slugma128]

That's not what makes a move OP. A move is only OP when it has little to no counterplay. Palutena in general has counterplay going against her.

Yes it is. There is a reason certain moves are used a lot, while other moves almost never are used.

 

[Perversion]

So, despite all the advice you've been given in Palutena's counterplay. You refuse to believe it and still want her nerfed? Okay, sorry to say, but you really just need to get better at the game and realize that you, as an individual cannot play against Palutena effectively because you don't want to understand it or learn it. Honestly, Slugma128, you just need to get better and stop trying to bring everyone down and instead rise up to a level of play that can handle Palutena's kit.

 

[T-Donor66]

You can not punish spam when the spam is executed by ace players. Let us see how many times I will have to repeat this now.

Maybe you lost because, I don’t know, they were an “ace player” as you said??? You are honestly doing everything you can to not say “I got outplayed fair and square”, and its pathetic.

There have been like 15 different posts from different people all disagreeing and calling you out. You are in the wrong here. No one has sided with you, which definitely alludes to which side is correct here.

You just need to learn how to counter her moves, and guess what? If you lose, it was because you messed up and they were better. The end. Learn from it, find a Palutena main to fight repeatedly till you get it down. Simple.

 

[Slugma128]

So, despite all the advice you've been given in Palutena's counterplay. You refuse to believe it and still want her nerfed? Okay, sorry to say, but you really just need to get better at the game and realize that you, as an individual cannot play against Palutena effectively because you don't want to understand it or learn it. Honestly, Slugma128, you just need to get better and stop trying to bring everyone down and instead rise up to a level of play that can handle Palutena's kit.

There is not a single piece of good advice in this thread as people seem to have not understood what I meant.

Maybe you lost because, I don’t know, they were an “ace player” as you said??? You are honestly doing everything you can’t to not say “I got outplayed fair and square”, and its pathetic.

Cmon man, there have been like 15 different posts from different people here disagreeing and calling you out. You are in the wrong here. No one has sided with you, which definitely alludes to which side is correct here.

You just need to learn how to counter her moves, and guess what? If you lose, it was because you messed up and they were better. The end. Learn from it, find a Palutena main to fight repeatedly till you get it down. Simple.

You decide right or wrong depending on the number of people saying something? I decide it by looking at the actual matter, not how many people says something.

Let us also see if the moderators will accept you calling me pathetic. I guess they will since they too care more about the quantiy of people here rather than what is actually being said.

I have gotten outplayed a lot of times. Palutena is not a case like that, her aerial spam is OP.

 

[Necro'lic]

Yes it is. There is a reason certain moves are used a lot, while other moves almost never are used.

I'm gonna reiterate Opossum 's point of the definition of OP. It absolutely has everything to do with lack of counterplay. What you actually mean when you say some moves are used more than others is that some moves are less "situational" than others.

However, while this technically can lead into situational move = bad move, it doesn't always work that way. As a Poke Trainer player, I'm not gonna use Ivysaur's Bullet Seed for anti-air or Charizard's Flare Blitz for killing as much as I'm going to use Ivysaur's USmash or Charizard's FAir, but this doesn't mean the former are useless while the latter are overpowered. Bullet Seed deals a lot of damage and has more reach and can better harass high platforms than USmash. Flare Blitz has heavy armor and kills much earlier than FAir.

It all depends on how much counterplay there is when talking about "OP'ness" of a move, and Palutena, while overbearing especially with her more generally used BAir and Explosive Flame, does have her weaknesses that are made clear in this thread already. This doesn't mean BAir and Explosive Flame have no counterplay.

 

[Perversion]

There is not a single piece of good advice in this thread as people seem to have not understood what I meant.

Allow me to reveal all the advice you've been given that you have elected to ignore.

No she's not. You're asking for Smash 4 Palutena again.

How to counter her? Her attacks are very linear. She can only do so much. Explosive flame and autoreticle are very laggy. Her counter/reflect is unreliable, like most. Don't use projectiles/attacks that are clearly predictable because then you'll get punished.

Then honestly, you're playing against people who know what they're doing and you're unable to deal with it. Using moves in a clever or "dynamic" (as you put it, which makes no sense) is all apart of the game. There is already built in counterplay to spamming moves, it's called 'stale' a move will deal less percent damage/knockback (I believe) the more it's used within a succession of other abilities. If you can't get around it by shielding aerials and getting a grab off of the attack and landing lag be it from buffering, spacing, or cross-up then you need to improve. Stop making Palutena out to be something impossible.

Spot-dodging against Autoreticle? Why don't you just shield?

Anyway, I play as her a lot and I never felt like I'm winning for free. If her smashes, tilts or specials whiffs, she's vulnerable for long periods, so you can exploit them.

No you're correct, characters with high speed can close the distance fast. Palutena has some slow attacks imo.

She really isn't that great once you get how she plays. Some people arent used to her yet. She has good ground speed but not in the air, and most of her useful attacks you have to get in the air to land with them, so she becomes pretty predictable. Her ground moves are punishable, and her b moves are better than before, but very situational. She's still alright, a decent character.

I think some people aren't used to some characters, it'll just take a bit. Chrom is probably the only one that I would say has some incredibly good stuff that might make him op overall. His recovery is his weakness. I dont feel it makes up for how good everything he has is, but hopefully something can change. We'll see more with time.

She has a very good air game but her ground game is just dash attack and forcing approach with slow projectiles. If you move fast on ground, she can't do much, not to mention there isn't much way for her to deal with juggles.

She's strong but not OP and it makes me happy, since she wasn't very fun to play in last game.

 

[Slugma128]

I'm gonna reiterate Opossum 's point of the definition of OP. It absolutely has everything to do with lack of counterplay. What you actually mean when you say some moves are used more than others is that some moves are less "situational" than others.

However, while this technically can lead into situational move = bad move, it doesn't always work that way. As a Poke Trainer player, I'm not gonna use Ivysaur's Bullet Seed for anti-air or Charizard's Flare Blitz for killing as much as I'm going to use Ivysaur's USmash or Charizard's FAir, but this doesn't mean the former are useless while the latter are overpowered. Bullet Seed deals a lot of damage and has more reach and can better harass high platforms than USmash. Flare Blitz has heavy armor and kills much earlier than FAir.

It all depends on how much counterplay there is when talking about "OP'ness" of a move, and Palutena, while overbearing especially with her more generally used BAir and Explosive Flame, does have her weaknesses that are made clear in this thread already. This doesn't mean BAir and Explosive Flame have no counterplay.

Finally someone who can talk like an adult. I think we are just defining things differently. Counterplay is also target to dynamic, as some moves are better in certain situations. What I am talking about is the general sense of OP of a move that is used very often because it has too many advantages.

 

[T-Donor66]

There is not a single piece of good advice in this thread as people seem to have not understood what I meant.


You decide right or wrong depending on the number of people saying something? I decide it by looking at the actual matter, not how many people says something.

Let us also see if the moderators will accept you calling me pathetic. I guess they will since they too care more about the quantiy of people here rather than what is actually being said.

I have gotten outplayed a lot of times. Palutena is not a case like that, her aerial spam is OP.

5088-5051-5627
Thats my friend code. If Palutena’s “aerial spam” is as OP as you say it is, and you are good to the point you shouldn’t blame yourself, then you should have no trouble beating me right? I’ll play as whoever you want, you can play as OP palutena.

 

[Slugma128]

5088-5051-5627
Thats my friend code. If Palutena’s “aerial spam” is as OP as you say it is, and you are good to the point you shouldn’t blame yourself, then you should have no trouble beating me right? I’ll play as whoever you want, you can play as OP palutena.

That is very nice of you, but I do not play as Palutena. As I said, you need skill to spam in an advanced way, not just doing the same move over and over. Second time I repeat that now.

 

[link2702]

Can a mod lock this already...all it’s turning into now is a flame war...

 

[Perversion]

Finally someone who can talk like an adult. I think we are just defining things differently. Counterplay is also target to dynamic, as some moves are better in certain situations. What I am talking about is the general sense of OP of a move that is used very often because it has too many advantages.

We've been giving you advice and criticism maturely. The only one who has responded in an immature way has been you, must I point these instances out once again?

That is very nice of you, but I do not play as Palutena. As I said, you need skill to spam in an advanced way, not just doing the same move over and over. Second time I repeat that now.

But by your logic, you don't need skill to spam as Palutena effectively because her moves are overpowered. If, in fact, you need skill to play Palutena in the way you are having trouble against her, then you are being beaten by people who are better than you.

Can a mod lock this already...all it’s turning into now is a flame war...

Agreed.

 

[Slugma128]

Can a mod lock this already...all it’s turning into now is a flame war...

This is not a flame war, this is what a debate looks like when people do not agree with each other. You know, it is a bit difference than safe spaces at universities where only people of the same opinion are allowed.

Welcome to reality.

"But by your logic, you don't need skill to spam as Palutena effectively because her moves are overpowered. "
And this is why I am ignoring you from now on. There are other users here who are able to read.

 

[Necro'lic]

Finally someone who can talk like an adult. I think we are just defining things differently. Counterplay is also target to dynamic, as some moves are better in certain situations. What I am talking about is the general sense of OP of a move that is used very often because it has too many advantages.

Firstly, thanks.

Secondly, I get what you are saying, but I also highly doubt there is no counterplay to Palu's air game, even if it feels that way. You always have to exhaust all other options. And another thing to do, which is important in this fighter based series, is to play at your own character's strengths just as the Palu player is playing at their own character's strengths.

Considering your profile pic, I will assume you use Peach. A good Peach player would most likely lightly zone away the Palutena player using turnips until they can find an opening to throw the turnip and then dash in and grab. If they react to said throw with a shield, you grab. If they maybe do another aerial out of shield, you could quickly back up and punish the lag of said aerial, or roll and hit them from the back. At this point in time, you can do something Peach is known for, and that is pressuring opponents to do options that she can react to, and this can be done by floating close to the ground and sending out spacing FAirs, one of Peach's strongest moves. And since you are close to the ground, you can bait a shield and get back on the ground and dash in and grab. Repeat this and you now have stage control.

What we have here is not only countering the Palu with simply one or two openings, but also playing to your own character's particular strengths. In short, you should make the opponent feel like your character is overpowered by simply putting them in the situations where your character shines.

 

[Opossum]

This is not a flame war, this is what a debate looks like when people do not agree with each other. You know, it is a bit difference than safe spaces at universities where only people of the same opinion are allowed.

Welcome to reality.

"But by your logic, you don't need skill to spam as Palutena effectively because her moves are overpowered. "
And this is why I am ignoring you from now on. There are other users here who are able to read.

Dude, get some self-awareness. You've been the only one acting like a spoiled child (and are now for some reason resorting to weirdly-political far right talking points, to boot).

 

[Perversion]

This is not a flame war, this is what a debate looks like when people do not agree with each other. You know, it is a bit difference than safe spaces at universities where only people of the same opinion are allowed.

Welcome to reality.

"But by your logic, you don't need skill to spam as Palutena effectively because her moves are overpowered. "
And this is why I am ignoring you from now on. There are other users here who are able to read.

You have agreed with one person. That one person was saying the exact same thing as us. That there is a counterplay, and we've provided it to you. You have only elected to ignore it.

 

[Slugma128]

Dude, get some self-awareness. You've been the only one acting like a spoiled child (and are now for some reason resorting to weirdly-political far right talking points, to boot).

Far right? Because I tell you about safe spaces at universities? Because I tell you how some people literally are so oversensitive they think a heated discussion is the same as a flame war? No, this is what the world looked like 20 years ago. People had fierce discussions, but at the end everyone left with some more knowledge. Nowadays people start to cry when you do not agree with them

Firstly, thanks.

Secondly, I get what you are saying, but I also highly doubt there is no counterplay to Palu's air game, even if it feels that way. You always have to exhaust all other options. And another thing to do, which is important in this fighter based series, is to play at your own character's strengths just as the Palu player is playing at their own character's strengths.

Considering your profile pic, I will assume you use Peach. A good Peach player would most likely lightly zone away the Palutena player using turnips until they can find an opening to throw the turnip and then dash in and grab. If they react to said throw with a shield, you grab. If they maybe do another aerial out of shield, you could quickly back up and punish the lag of said aerial, or roll and hit them from the back. At this point in time, you can do something Peach is known for, and that is pressuring opponents to do options that she can react to, and this can be done by floating close to the ground and sending out spacing FAirs, one of Peach's strongest moves. And since you are close to the ground, you can bait a shield and get back on the ground and dash in and grab. Repeat this and you now have stage control.

What we have here is not only countering the Palu with simply one or two openings, but also playing to your own character's particular strengths. In short, you should make the opponent feel like your character is overpowered by simply putting them in the situations where your character shines.

I do not use Peach. And I am not saying Palutena is a supreme goddess, I am saying she is slightly OP and that her aerials needs to be nerfed slightly.

 

[Necro'lic]

I do not use Peach. And I am not saying Palutena is a supreme goddess, I am saying she is slightly OP and that her aerials needs to be nerfed slightly.

Well again, I harken back to the idea of exhausting all options and tactics before being sure. I don't think anyone, even the pro-est of players, has done that yet considering it's only been a month. So I don't think changes are warranted yet. I personally would give it time for the meta to settle.

But let's say hypothetically Palu is actually OP and it's due to her aerials. What would you say needs to be nerfed about them? Because saying they need to be nerfed is a bit unclear considering there are MANY ways to nerf moves. You could do some stuff like nerfing landing lag, endlag in the air, startup, special properties, hitbox size, damage, shieldstun, base knockback, knockback growth, duration, and probably a few others I can't think of right now.

And also, if this hypothetical happened, what makes you think the Smash balance team will actually nerf her in this way, even if they deemed her worthy of nerfing? What if they also understand that her aerial game is what makes her strong and what she is sorta designed and balanced around? There are many avenues to work through here.

 

[T-Donor66]

Far right? Because I tell you about safe spaces at universities? Because I tell you how some people literally are so oversensitive they think a heated discussion is the same as a flame war? No, this is what the world looked like 20 years ago. People had fierce discussions, but at the end everyone left with some more knowledge. Nowadays people start to cry when you do not agree with them

Dad? Is that you? This is Smashboards, not a Fox News roundtable lol

 

[Slugma128]

Well again, I harken back to the idea of exhausting all options and tactics before being sure. I don't think anyone, even the pro-est of players, has done that yet considering it's only been a month. So I don't think changes are warranted yet. I personally would give it time for the meta to settle.

But let's say hypothetically Palu is actually OP and it's due to her aerials. What would you say needs to be nerfed about them? Because saying they need to be nerfed is a bit unclear considering there are MANY ways to nerf moves. You could do some stuff like nerfing landing lag, endlag in the air, startup, special properties, hitbox size, damage, shieldstun, base knockback, knockback growth, duration, and probably a few others I can't think of right now.

And also, if this hypothetical happened, what makes you think the Smash balance team will actually nerf her in this way, even if they deemed her worthy of nerfing? What if they also understand that her aerial game is what makes her strong and what she is sorta designed and balanced around? There are many avenues to work through here.

See, this is a good guy. Actually listening, having a discussion with actual arguments. Do we agree? That has nothing to do with it. It is the way you talk and the way you debate. This person actually reads what I am writing, which is more than you can say of certain other folks here.

Anyway, to answer your argument, the specific thing that needs to be nerfed is end lag. And not just for Palu BTW, as I have been writing in that other thread, but most (if not all) characters need slightly more lag after doing aerials. The aerial spam is real with this game, and Palutena happens to have combo attacks which are very easy to pull off (for a skilled player I must add, otherwise I know a few people here who would not understand that). Give her just a slight bit of end lag and those unescapable combos would be no more.

 

[T-Donor66]

See, this is a good guy. Actually listening, having a discussion with actual arguments. Do we agree? That has nothing to do with it. It is the way you talk and the way you debate. This person actually reads what I am writing, which is more than you can say of certain other folks here.

Anyway, to answer your argument, the specific thing that needs to be nerfed is end lag. And not just for Palu BTW, as I have been writing in that other thread, but most (if not all) characters need slightly more lag after doing aerials. The aerial spam is real with this game, and Palutena happens to have combo attacks which are very easy to pull off (for a skilled player I must add, otherwise I know a few people here who would not understand that). Give her just a slight bit of end lag and those unescapable combos would be no more.

Buddy, you are in no position to lecture anyone on how to have a “proper discussion” when this was your first reply to criticism on this thread:

Yeah, nice argument. It is people like you who ruins these boards.

 

[Slugma128]

Buddy, you are in no position to lecture anyone on how to have a “proper discussion” when this was your first reply to criticism on this thread:

Because what I replied to there was not an argument, it was a rant that had nothing to do with what I wrote in the first post. Again, be careful about selectively picking and pasting your quotes, you might look like the media when doing so.

 

[Perversion]

Those air combos are OP. For some characters it is impossible to avoid them, plus she is one of the few characters who have both reflect an counter. Plus she has that fire bomb that you can not reflect. Give her more lag after her aerial attacks and she would be more balanced.

Your first post.

No she's not. You're asking for Smash 4 Palutena again.

How to counter her? Her attacks are very linear. She can only do so much. Explosive flame and autoreticle are very laggy. Her counter/reflect is unreliable, like most. Don't use projectiles/attacks that are clearly predictable because then you'll get punished.

Guess what? lots of fighters have air combos. I assume you want half the cast to be nerfed as well.

The reply. Giving feedback on Explosive Flame, Reflect, and Counter. Not a rant.

EDIT: This 'rant' gave you insight on 3 things you wanted touched on. Having plenty to do with your first post. You responded extremely negatively.

 

[Deleted member]

Ha! Another noob scrub! Palutena is good, and has combos, but so does like 80% of the roster. When she has distance, she is extremely powerful, but when you get close, she falls apart. Sure, her potential is huge (just like your mom), but she's not broken. Get off the salt wagon, and quit sucking at the game. Learn the matchup, scrub.

 

[Necro'lic]

See, this is a good guy. Actually listening, having a discussion with actual arguments. Do we agree? That has nothing to do with it. It is the way you talk and the way you debate. This person actually reads what I am writing, which is more than you can say of certain other folks here.

Again, thank you. But you must still admit that the first few exchanges in this thread were not productive on your part either, as some of the more recent comments show. And I think most of this stems from people misunderstanding your intentions and having a kneejerk reaction because people saw the word "nerf" and assumed the worst about you. At the same time, your OP didn't really give them evidence to the contrary because you didn't specify your intentions well enough. Maybe you didn't know, but there's this hilarious "war against 'nerf culture'" that seems to be happening, quelling any talking about nerfing characters. Maybe you weren't aware and thus didn't word yourself within that context. But at the same time, you shouldn't accuse the same negatives on the other person, especially when your OP's reasoning is almost non-existent.

In short, follow Hanlon's Razor. It is far better to associate the backlash with stupidity (or in these cases, honest misunderstanding) than malice.

Anyway, to answer your argument, the specific thing that needs to be nerfed is end lag. And not just for Palu BTW, as I have been writing in that other thread, but most (if not all) characters need slightly more lag after doing aerials. The aerial spam is real with this game, and Palutena happens to have combo attacks which are very easy to pull off (for a skilled player I must add, otherwise I know a few people here who would not understand that). Give her just a slight bit of end lag and those unescapable combos would be no more.

This would be all well and good and I would actually kinda agree with you on this at first glance of watching some games, but the developers have a couple of counters to this lower endlag. Firstly, every character can dash dance effectively, meaning you can fade in and out and back in in neutral with literally any character and get a good result on a quick aerial's landing, especially if you respond with an anti-air. Second, short hop aerials have much lower shieldstun, meaning that there are openings where you can react to a hit on your shield should they not space properly. Thirdly, and this is more recent a revelation, spotdodges/sidesteps can be ended sooner with attacks, so if someone is approaching with aerials, try spotdodging and reacting to the quickest move in your arsenal.

These results may vary, but these tools are in place for you to use.

 

[Teeb147]

Yeah basically we have to look at the tools that everyone has in order to really get the overall balance. The fuller potential of characters allows to be able to counter each's strengths; you can learn to play your own character at that potential too. Dash dancing does make the ground game really good and a lot easier to avoid attacks and retaliate. When someone jumps in the air, they're not going to be able to move as much and that makes them vulnerable, especially if they dont have good air speed, like palutena.

The one strength she has is that she actually has that good air game on landing, but she's not an air character like jigglypufff. She doesn't deserve to be nerfed, because her strength is balanced, it just may be a little of a learning curve since the skill ceiling of ultimate is higher than smash 4. I think it's something a lot of people enjoy exploring though, and it means growing even more with a character as well as the game mechanics.. Good luck and try to enjoy the journey.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

This is not a flame war, this is what a debate looks like when people do not agree with each other. You know, it is a bit difference than safe spaces at universities where only people of the same opinion are allowed.

Welcome to reality.

"But by your logic, you don't need skill to spam as Palutena effectively because her moves are overpowered. "
And this is why I am ignoring you from now on. There are other users here who are able to read.

There is nothing wrong with having debates and we encourage them here. However, using a debate to demean the people you disagree with and to belittle them is not welcomed. If you can’t debate constructively, then don’t debate. In addition, comments regarding current events/social issues is not welcomed. It has nothing to do with Palutena so please don’t use them. It does nothing for anyone. Save it for the Debate Hall.

And to the rest of thread, please do not provoke the user to respond In a negative manner. You can disagree with the user but using it as a chance to try and “get even” is not cool. If I see any of that, I will begin handing out warnings/infractions.

I’m going to leave this thread open as long as everyone can have a constructive and meaningful discussion concerning Palutena.

 

[Mr. Grabs]

My position is it's too early to talk about definite nerfs for Palutena or any character. She doesn't have one specific thing that's absolutely broken and degenerate (like an easy to do infinite combo that works always). However the notion that she doesn't even seem that good I find really silly. I mentioned this before but She's overperforming Inkling, Chrom and many of the other characters in tourney play. Based on the first month of the meta, Palutena is insanely good by pretty much any metric. She’s #2 in All and #5 in National, with a lot of room to grow with the amount of player interest that exists for her. While it's very early, there have been dozens of events and I don't think it's controversial to say it's likely she could be in the top 10, possibly even higher when the meta shakes out after a few more months. She's the most improved character with the exception of possibly Pichu (who hasn't been in a game for so long anyway).

Saying to someone "get good, she's not that bad, you just suck" isn't particularly productive for dialogue but that doesn't mean one can't share advice. As I mentioned before she's one of my least favorite characters to play against because she just has so many options and I absolutely get frustrated playing against her, especially when I get in her face and she just back throw KOs me. She's nearly impossible to zone out because she has two projectiles that can't be reflected/caped and she has several attacks that can KO (including all of her aerials) which means she can continue to get kills early because she doesn't have to make her reliable moves stale (because she has a ton of reliable moves). She also has a recovery that is hard to exploit when edgeguarding her. I don't really know what her primary weakness is.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Sir, your other thread that got closed was you complaining about defensive players. Called them cowards.

Now in this thread, I see you complaining about offensive play...

Your join date makes suspicious. You've been part of the community for over a decade. It's hard to believe that you can be this stupid about match ups. Is this an elaborate troll?

 

[Christian_CAO]

Thank goodness No one with actual power to nerf or buff characters actually gives the site the time of day.
The goddess has good assets at her disposal. She wasn't too great in Sm4sh but now she can actually do better than before and people want that gone?
Let's play for half a year and then ask ourselves what needs to be nerfed/buffed/ fixed. Bugfixes before anything else are the only patches I wish to see.

When they fix the frame rate drop in FoD and fix the Ridley insta kill glitches in flat stages, let me know.

 

[Ice-N-Space]

That's not what makes a move OP. A move is only OP when it has little to no counterplay. Palutena in general has counterplay going against her.

Having no counterplay isn't overpowered that's just broken being overpowered means being able to achieve something with little work needed when compared against the competition.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Slugma128

Looks to me like your question has been answered several times. To counter aerial pressure....hold shield. If you can tell she's going to use an aerial counterattack before hand, dodge away, condition, use a down B counter, parry and punish.....once you have the read on someone it's impossible not to take advantage unless you're really bad at the game.

Your excuse that "ace players" can't be countered when using aerial spam holds no ground to the fact that you literally described your opponent as better than you. You were upstaged. Your opponent was more skilled than you. If you can't handle the fact that you lost to a batter player, what was the point of farting out a thread about it?

So, considering your opponent was simply better than you......

Spoiler: Whoa! Good advice!

 

[Teeb147]

My position is it's too early to talk about definite nerfs for Palutena or any character. She doesn't have one specific thing that's absolutely broken and degenerate (like an easy to do infinite combo that works always). However the notion that she doesn't even seem that good I find really silly. I mentioned this before but She's overperforming Inkling, Chrom and many of the other characters in tourney play. Based on the first month of the meta, Palutena is insanely good by pretty much any metric. She’s #2 in All and #5 in National, with a lot of room to grow with the amount of player interest that exists for her. While it's very early, there have been dozens of events and I don't think it's controversial to say it's likely she could be in the top 10, possibly even higher when the meta shakes out after a few more months. She's the most improved character with the exception of possibly Pichu (who hasn't been in a game for so long anyway).

Saying to someone "get good, she's not that bad, you just suck" isn't particularly productive for dialogue but that doesn't mean one can't share advice. As I mentioned before she's one of my least favorite characters to play against because she just has so many options and I absolutely get frustrated playing against her, especially when I get in her face and she just back throw KOs me. She's nearly impossible to zone out because she has two projectiles that can't be reflected/caped and she has several attacks that can KO (including all of her aerials) which means she can continue to get kills early because she doesn't have to make her reliable moves stale (because she has a ton of reliable moves). She also has a recovery that is hard to exploit when edgeguarding her. I don't really know what her primary weakness is.

I feel that she's been doing good because good players have been using her. Nairo and dabuz have been using her, along with some other really good players. I think that it'll go down with time. I dont feel like debating details or anything, but I really do think she's not ahead of those characters. She can get predictable when you understand her strengths (and what they're not), and there's a good amount of positions and timings she has trouble dealing with.

 

[T-Donor66]

Slugma128

Looks to me like your question has been answered several times. To counter aerial pressure....hold shield. If you can tell she's going to use an aerial counterattack before hand, dodge away, condition, use a down B counter, parry and punish.....once you have the read on someone it's impossible not to take advantage unless you're really bad at the game.

Your excuse that "ace players" can't be countered when using aerial spam holds no ground to the fact that you literally described your opponent as better than you. You were upstaged. Your opponent was more skilled than you. If you can't handle the fact that you lost to a batter player, what was the point of farting out a thread about it?

So, considering your opponent was simply better than you......

Spoiler: Whoa! Good advice!

View attachment 185867

Slugma128 the type of guy to try to shieldgrab a fully spaced Shulk fair and then post about how he is “overtuned” and “impossible to counter” lmao

 

[Perversion]

Now lets not allow the provocation of Slugma128 get to us by flaming him in return. If the user was a troll, then being toxic back would only play into him. If the user was sincere then it does nothing but harm. All we can do is inform and try to contribute positively.