Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[MachoCheeze]

True and it doesnt seem you guys have too many noteworthy laggy moves(I think) but yea we can deal with your hydrants from a distance and our projectiles wont be near as useless as other characters.

BTW about your sideB if you were to get hit out of it in midair, could you reuse it immediatly?
Also i would like to know a tad bit more about the tramp? So if its grounded, you automatically bounce when you run over it right? and if you were to do it when its red, you would immediatly go into helpless state or does that only apply to him?

I honestly dont this MU is one where Zelda needs to panic much, both characters for that matter.

If you lay a trampoline on the ground it will eat up Zelda's Up B and will force her to jump on it.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

If you lay a trampoline on the ground it will eat up Zelda's Up B and will force her to jump on it.

Thanks? I mean that doesnt fully answer my question however nor any of the others...

 

[abit_rusty]

Thanks? I mean that doesnt fully answer my question however nor any of the others...

For your other questions, no you cannot re-use side-b immediately if they interrupt the power pellet. Yes, the grounded trampoline will auto-bounce anyone walking into it. Yes, all will enter helpless state if they hit the red trampoline.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

For your other questions, no you cannot re-use side-b immediately if they interrupt the power pellet. Yes, the grounded trampoline will auto-bounce anyone walking into it. Yes, all will enter helpless state if they hit the red trampoline.

Thanks, so weird how the main person I quoted and asked, for some reason didnt bother to answer...
But once again, thanks and this will be something i should keep in mind.

 

[Froggy]

Could somene explain to me exactly when the default side B gains super armor? I had thoughts it was after he consumed the pellete but I'm finding that is just not the case. Has anyone figured at what stage during the course of the move Pacman gains super armror?

 

[BSP]

Could somene explain to me exactly when the default side B gains super armor? I had thoughts it was after he consumed the pellete but I'm finding that is just not the case. Has anyone figured at what stage during the course of the move Pacman gains super armror?

It's a very small window from the moment he eats the pellet. If you're intending to use the armor for protection, you basically want the pellet just touching your intended target.

 

[fromundaman]

You can visually see it actually as Pacman briefly flashes during his super armor.

 

[Froggy]

You can visually see it actually as Pacman briefly flashes during his super armor.

Ah, I'll take it to the training room and test that out.

 

[Funkermonster]

What are some great combos with Pac-Man and some great ways to use the Bell and the Galaxian? Haven't played this character as often as before, but if I learn some cool new tricks I'll go back to him since combos are always a fun thing. Right now I know of:

Dthrow > UpB
Fair > Fair
Fair > Nair
Dash Attack > Uair
Galaxian > Dash Attack

What else is there? I'm positive this can't be all of them. And as for the Galaxian and the Bell, I find them more difficult to use than the other fruits and can't use them as effectively. I can use the bell against those who recover low, combo into dash attack with galaxian, and I find both pretty easy to catch and z-drop but that's it.

One last thing: what do you guys do against Mega Man? As much as I enjoy playing Mega Man and am pretty good with him (in my region I am debatably one of the top people who use him). I know pellet shielding exists and can perform it fine, but I don't feel comfortable using it against him since he can jump after shooting lemons and I'm afraid of accidentally going into wakka wakka mode and getting punished. I usually approach this by walking and powershielding and using melons, but awhile ago I played against the other best Mega Man in my state and it was real rough match.

 

[Nu~]

What are some great combos with Pac-Man and some great ways to use the Bell and the Galaxian? Haven't played this character as often as before, but if I learn some cool new tricks I'll go back to him since combos are always a fun thing. Right now I know of:

Dthrow > UpB
Fair > Fair
Fair > Nair
Dash Attack > Uair
Galaxian > Dash Attack

What else is there? I'm positive this can't be all of them. And as for the Galaxian and the Bell, I find them more difficult to use than the other fruits and can't use them as effectively. I can use the bell against those who recover low, combo into dash attack with galaxian, and I find both pretty easy to catch and z-drop but that's it.

One last thing: what do you guys do against Mega Man? As much as I enjoy playing Mega Man and am pretty good with him (in my region I am debatably one of the top people who use him). I know pellet shielding exists and can perform it fine, but I don't feel comfortable using it against him since he can jump after shooting lemons and I'm afraid of accidentally going into wakka wakka mode and getting punished. I usually approach this by walking and powershielding and using melons, but awhile ago I played against the other best Mega Man in my state and it was real rough match.

Always remember the priority your fruits have. Melon and above all travel through every single one of mega man's projectiles (an item tossed metal blade clashes with melon though)

Just keep him at bay with hydrants and high tier fruit. If you break his wall with a fruit, rush him down and abuse his weak CQC.

Even if you are scared of pellet shielding, practice it anyway. A grounded power pellet will block his grounded lemons. Catching his metal blade essentially makes it so that he can't keep you out at all.

We should win nuetral in this matchup.

Edit: Abadango just 2 stocked Daiki's mega man on stream by keeping up a strong defense.

 

[Sinji]

Some Mario Notes I've compiled.

With Mario you have to be either above him or below him. Never be horizontal against him. Use nair and up b out of shield a lot whenever mario drops down with a nair or dair. If you bait his cape and shield it, you get a free nair out of shield. Wall him out with back airs if the mario player starts spacing with fire balls. He literally can't do anything when both characters are in the air. Once he stops fire balling and play more of a ground game, drop a hydrant down. Fair>nair combo him around 45%. Gimp him off stage with an orange. If he likes to recover below, drop a hydrant. If he's in the air, read his defensive patterns and juggle him with up airs. You're going to be doing a lot of out of shield options in the match up. Also spot dodge Mario's grab. You can up b immediately after that . Bair wall of pain is a great edge guard.

 

[Sinji]

Always remember the priority your fruits have. Melon and above all travel through every single one of mega man's projectiles (an item tossed metal blade clashes with melon though)

Just keep him at bay with hydrants and high tier fruit. If you break his wall with a fruit, rush him down and abuse his weak CQC.

Even if you are scared of pellet shielding, practice it anyway. A grounded power pellet will block his grounded lemons. Catching his metal blade essentially makes it so that he can't keep you out at all.

We should win nuetral in this matchup.

Edit: Abadango just 2 stocked Daiki's mega man on stream by keeping up a strong defense.

You have a link for that stream with Abadango vs Daiki?

 

[Nu~]

You have a link for that stream with Abadango vs Daiki?

http://www.twitch.tv/abadango/v/6613755

 

[Sinji]

I didn't know Abadango had a Twitch. Good stuff.

 

[Maziyah]

I got timed out in winners at smash attack 8 a while ago but ig still bothers me, how would one deal with a campy olimar ?

 

[Nu~]

I got timed out in winners at smash attack 8 a while ago but ig still bothers me, how would one deal with a campy olimar ?

When you take a stock off of an olimar, place a trampoline under the spawn plate. They can't use their invincibility to pick up pikmin.

Pikmin stick to fruits (and die when they hit olimar) so be more liberal about your fruit tossing. Fair launched hydrants and melons should go through his wall of pikmin.

Overall, just be patient and make an opening.

 

[BSP]

If someone is trying to time you out by sitting on the other side of the stage, I'd get a Galaxian or Key in hand and continuously Fair / Z drop Key launch hydrants while looking for reactions to punish and letting their shield wear down.

 

[Funkermonster]

What are some great combos with Pac-Man and some great ways to use the Bell and the Galaxian? Haven't played this character as often as before, but if I learn some cool new tricks I'll go back to him since combos are always a fun thing. Right now I know of:

Dthrow > UpB
Fair > Fair
Fair > Nair
Dash Attack > Uair
Galaxian > Dash Attack

What else is there? I'm positive this can't be all of them. And as for the Galaxian and the Bell, I find them more difficult to use than the other fruits and can't use them as effectively. I can use the bell against those who recover low, combo into dash attack with galaxian, and I find both pretty easy to catch and z-drop but that's it.

Can I still get an answer to this? And what do you guys do against custom ? I try to pellet shield his pushy lloid, but unlike default the pushy lloid just keeps going and it doesn't stop, and I find myself getting gimped by his bowling ball and dunno what to do about him pocketing.

 

[Nu~]

Can I still get an answer to this? And what do you guys do against custom ? I try to pellet shield his pushy lloid, but unlike default the pushy lloid just keeps going and it doesn't stop, and I find myself getting gimped by his bowling ball and dunno what to do about him pocketing.

If he pockets your fruit, charge another. You can charge your fruit as long as he keeps it in his pocket. Once he takes it out, he loses most of his offensive and defensive options. Drop a hydrant on the pushy lloid. This destroys it. You can also throw a key through it on its startup.

For the bowling ball, recover high or side B into his face while he charges it up.

 

[Sinji]

I know what to do in neutral against Sonic, but what are the best kill options against him?

 

[BSP]

I know what to do in neutral against Sonic, but what are the best kill options against him?

I usually end up killing him with Key or scooping him out of a spindash / aerial with Usmash.

 

[Nu~]

If you want to get fancy, you could always set up a trampoline -> bell trap in the middle of the stage when he spin dashes.

Probably better for when he's offstage though.

 

[Nu~]

Have you guys experimented with freaky fruit in the Shiek matchup?

All of the lower tier fruit stop her sh approaches, needle camping, and dash grab. They also allow us to get a free grab (or even harder punish) every time she gets hit.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all PAC-MANs out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against PAC-MAN. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. PAC-MAN match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/409126/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Froggy]

To all PAC-MANs out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against PAC-MAN. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. PAC-MAN match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/409126/

In terms of the rules, be sure
to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

Should any of us say anything to this guy? I mean is it really in our best interest to help Rosalina players?

 

[Nu~]

Should any of us say anything to this guy? I mean is it really in our best interest to help Rosalina players?

It's always good to help the meta as a whole. The meta is going to evolve no matter what, so we should probably show them what we've got to help the meta grow quicker (and then if we find anything new, they'll just have to play catch up)

 

[BSP]

Here's how I think about it, and I use the pellet healing tech for example. Pure hypothetical here:

1. Let's say I or anyone realized that you could do that against GP, but only private messaged other Pac-Man players about. We've got a leg up in the MU.

2. One of us runs into Rosalina in tournament and possibly wins because of the technique alone.

3. Rosalina player goes back to other Rosalina players and explain what happened. They develop counter tech, and take the same approach we did and keep it secret.

4. Rosalina runs into Pac-Man again and bodies him despite pellet technique.

5. Pac-Man player goes back to other Pac-Man players. Tech develop....cycle continues.....

6. You get to the point where the MU has been done to death. Either it's even or one character loses.

I'm not a top level pro so you could say I'm naive, but since I generally don't have $1000+ hinging on the next tournament, I'd rather get to #6 ASAP. I don't want to waste time practicing a potentially unwinnable MU at high level. I'd much rather have started developing my secondary.

I can see this secret approach if you've got loads of $$$$ riding on each tournament. I'm not going to deny that incentive. Until smash gets to that case, I'd rather progress the meta.

If you find that a secondary is a better option but you took years to get to #6 because of secrecy, I would imagine catchup is going to be much harder for you + you've wasted a good bit of time IMO.

Edit: I'm glad with the route I took. Since I was very vocal about the healing tech, we've talked about it and I played Dabuz online to try it out. Now I know the strat's weaknesses. Rosa can run away without using GP, and aggro Rosa still has significant range advantage. I've already started thinking of counterplay to those. Getting Key in hand consistently will be important and it's not something you can do on a whim without practice. I also need to look into contesting Rosalina's jump-ins more.

If the ultimate conclusion is that Pac-Man can't handle the character at high level, I'd rather know that now instead of spending additional years working on a MU that I will ultimately avoid.

Same deal with the fast characters running through grounded hydrants.

 

[Froggy]

Here's how I think about it, and I use the pellet healing tech for example. Pure hypothetical here:

1. Let's say I or anyone realized that you could do that against GP, but only private messaged other Pac-Man players about. We've got a leg up in the MU.

2. One of us runs into Rosalina in tournament and possibly wins because of the technique alone.

3. Rosalina player goes back to other Rosalina players and explain what happened. They develop counter tech, and take the same approach we did and keep it secret.

4. Rosalina runs into Pac-Man again and bodies him despite pellet technique.

5. Pac-Man player goes back to other Pac-Man players. Tech develop....cycle continues.....

6. You get to the point where the MU has been done to death. Either it's even or one character loses.

I'm not a top level pro so you could say I'm naive, but since I generally don't have $1000+ hinging on the next tournament, I'd rather get to #6 ASAP. I don't want to waste time practicing a potentially unwinnable MU at high level. I'd much rather have started developing my secondary.

I can see this secret approach if you've got loads of $$$$ riding on each tournament. I'm not going to deny that incentive. Until smash gets to that case, I'd rather progress the meta.

If you find that a secondary is a better option but you took years to get to #6 because of secrecy, I would imagine catchup is going to be much harder for you + you've wasted a good bit of time IMO.

Edit: I'm glad with the route I took. Since I was very vocal about the healing tech, we've talked about it and I played Dabuz online to try it out. Now I know the strat's weaknesses. Rosa can run away without using GP, and aggro Rosa still has significant range advantage. I've already started thinking of counterplay to those. Getting Key in hand consistently will be important and it's not something you can do on a whim without practice. I also need to look into contesting Rosalina's jump-ins more.

If the ultimate conclusion is that Pac-Man can't handle the character at high level, I'd rather know that now instead of spending additional years working on a MU that I will ultimately avoid.

Same deal with the fast characters running through grounded hydrants.

Fair enough, it requires us to assume that Rosalina and whoever else players will be as honest as we are which is imo is probably a loosing gamble though.

Fast characters running through grounded hydrants isn't a problem since you should have the trampolene in front of you. You see to understand that better than most of us here.

 

[BSP]

Talking defaults, Rosalina is pretty straightforward. Luma has some jank, but it's consistent jank. If we study her hard, we could probably would definitely figure out every single thing about Rosalina before Rosalina players figured every single thing out about Pac-Man if it came to that.

If it came down to sides hiding stuff, I'd be more scared of us. I mean, who else would figure out the little tricks that we do?

Rosalina has her moveset loaded with disjoints. Luma is Luma. They've got separation gimmicks, that's about it.

Pac-Man's arsenal of tricks has no end.

Also, I tested Rosalina jab at ledge roll distance away + Luma jab at the ledge. As expected ,we have an answer. Luma's jab combo ender will not hit Pac-Man when he's holding a ledge. If they do this to you, charge Key and chuck it at both of them when you get a chance.

Also, from the best testing I could do by myself, I find that our Bair is pretty good for challenging Rosalina and Luma in the air as long as you come in purely from the side. The halos will mess you up, but our Bair is considerable and wins trades with her nair and fair. I'll try to test her Bair tonight.

 

[Froggy]

when your hydrant is sent back at you, Pacman is unable to stop it with the pellet(side b), can anyone verify this for me? I can't test it out on the 3ds.

 

[Nu~]

when your hydrant is sent back at you, Pacman is unable to stop it with the pellet(side b), can anyone verify this for me? I can't test it out on the 3ds.

Yeah, you can't. The hydrant can hit multiple opponents. What we can do, is cancel out its hitbox with F-air.

 

[Froggy]

Has anyone ever fought Lucina players who use the crescent slash custom? They grab you, then don't throw and pop put of it which leads up b to kos at crazy early percents near the ledge. I asked my opponent why this is happening, and he told me any character that dangles when grabbed is led into this. I tried it out in training mode and I don't pop up at all, so I'm incline to think my opponent ios full of ****.

I should have saved an example but I was salty about it. Do you guys know what I am talking about? Is there a way to avoid this?

 

[Nu~]

Has anyone ever fought Lucina players who use the crescent slash custom? They grab you, then don't throw and pop put of it which leads up b to kos at crazy early percents near the ledge. I asked my opponent why this is happening, and he told me any character that dangles when grabbed is led into this. I tried it out in training mode and I don't pop up at all, so I'm incline to think my opponent ios full of ****.

I should have saved an example but I was salty about it. Do you guys know what I am talking about? Is there a way to avoid this?

In my matches with Emblem lord, I was able to buffer an air dodge and escape the crescent slash.

 

[Froggy]

In my matches with Emblem lord, I was able to buffer an air dodge and escape the crescent slash.

Oh I play with Emblem lord at my local.

I don't think you get my question though. I'm asking why am I being popped up in the first place? Why don't I break out of the grab on the ground like normal, it seems to defy the mechanics of the game. Is it avoidable?

 

[Nu~]

Oh I play with Emblem lord at my local.

I don't think you get my question though. I'm asking why am I being popped up in the first place? Why don't I break out of the grab on the ground like normal, it seems to defy the mechanics of the game. Is it avoidable?

Oh, well it may be the fact that she grabbed you over the ledge, or out of the air. Both of those situations lead to an air release.

 

[Froggy]

And I looked it up it's called a grab release, some characters are popped into the air when grabbed and not thrown. The 3ds version must be very buggy because this doesn't work at all on a level 3 computer but works 100% of the time on a level 6.

Well this is nice to know,I guess I just have to stop engaging her near the ledge and instead treat her like Mii Brawler.

 

[NimbusSpark]

And I looked it up it's called a grab release, some characters are popped into the air when grabbed and not thrown. The 3ds version must be very buggy because this doesn't work at all on a level 3 computer but works 100% of the time on a level 6.

Well this is nice to know,I guess I just have to stop engaging her near the ledge and instead treat her like Mii Brawler.

I'm pretty sure it's dependant on if the characters feet is touching the ground or not. Previously, Wario's aerial grab release animation provided Little Mac with the ability to KO Punch him easily, so thats a fun thing to mention.

Note that it is patched, so... don't do it.

 

[Froggy]

I'm pretty sure it's dependant on if the characters feet is touching the ground or not. Previously, Wario's aerial grab release animation provided Little Mac with the ability to KO Punch him easily, so thats a fun thing to mention.

Note that it is patched, so... don't do it.

I had no idea this was a thing.

One of my online rivals who I've never beaten defeated me yesterday (despite me outplaying him) by getting the game winnings kos from grab release into crescent slash below 100%.

Had I just known to avoid the ledge at higher percents I think I would have taken it, still just a little bit salty about it.

 

[BSP]

Yeah, if your feet are touching the ground when you are grabbed, or you are released during a pummel, you will ground break.

If your feet are dangling when grabbed or you mash jump when you are grabbed, you will air release unless you are released during a pummel.

 

[Froggy]

Yeah, if your feet are touching the ground when you are grabbed, or you are released during a pummel, you will ground break.

If your feet are dangling when grabbed or you mash jump when you are grabbed, you will air release unless you are released during a pummel.

If you mash down do you stay on the ground?