Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[BSP]

If you mash down do you stay on the ground?

If your feet are touching the ground, you will ground release unless you press jump.

Also, our Utilt disjoint is enough to safely detonate a Bob-omb falling onto Pac-Man's head.

 

[Nu~]

If your feet are touching the ground, you will ground release unless you press jump.

Also, our Utilt disjoint is enough to safely detonate a Bob-omb falling onto Pac-Man's head.

Ah, you tested it too?

I wonder if we can use it to fend off Shiek's SH Fair/Nair approaches. Stand with our back to her and just up tilt away when she gets near. We would need to time it really well though.

It's certainly our best anti air (next to upwards tilted f-tilt)

 

[BSP]

Ah, you tested it too?

I wonder if we can use it to fend off Shiek's SH Fair/Nair approaches. Stand with our back to her and just up tilt away when she gets near. We would need to time it really well though.

It's certainly our best anti air (next to upwards tilted f-tilt)

Not only would we need to time it well, but I'm not sure if Utilt has enough horizontal coverage to handle optimal Sheik Fair / Nair spacing.

Another thing: Our ghosts are funky. They're not transcendent for sure, but I don't know if their entire animations can be cancelled out. I did more testing vs. some other Fsmashes. When properly spaced against Ganon's, for example, Ganon's would override Blinky's first hit but get hit by the sourspot. Same thing would happen when I did it with Sonic's Fsmash. The same thing happened for Clyde / Pinky, but it was harder to pull off since they don't go as far.

I guess this means the two hitboxes are fully separate.

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

Howdy, explorers of the maze! The Duck Hunt Boards are currently discussing the Pac-Man Match-Up and we value yer input! Customs or default, any experience you have against the hound and duck and want to share would be mighty helpful! Click the link below to follow Lassie to the well!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sic-...ng-zero-suit-samus-villager-and.379294/page-6

Also, I dun drew a PacDog~

 

[Neutricity]

Hi fellow Pac-Warriors,
I got some match-up insight that you would find interesting whether or not you agree with what I have to say.
I think Pac-Man's worst match-ups are the Top Tiers (who woulda guessed?) and a few random awkward characters.
I think I've compiled a good top ten match ups you would want to be as ready for as possible with explanation.
I hope the colors aren't too much for you.

Pac-Match Ups I hate (Sheik is self explanatory):
1.Sonic- I hate Sonic because he is too fast and I actually believe him to be harder to fight than Sheik. My reasoning for that is because if we mess up he picks up our fruit then he doesn't actually have to fight us. He could time us out or watch us try to approach him to get our fruit back. YOU NEVER WANNA APPROACH SONIC. He is Punish the Hedgehog. I think all characters than just dodge Pac-Man could do the same and time us out but playing like that isn't fun. But we play to win.
2.Luigi- Green Mario is the Brain Dead Character Incarnate. Sure there is skill in Luigi but I can only see that in top level play when you have the Luigi player read everything the opponent is doing. But when you're fighting a Luigi you do your best but he kills to fast.
3.Yoshi- Yoshi's mobility and damage output are just far to overwhelming. Trading moves in a pain in the back, eggs are annoying, and we can't kill him as easily as he can kill us. I also think that not too many people play Yoshi but I'm not sure why.
4.ZSS- I actually play ZSS and I think she is just far too fast. A lot of things we find safe, she can disrupt then punish accordingly. I think her speed on the ground and in air is too overwhelming.
5.C. Falcon- His speed and strength and back air are hard to fight against. I think this is basically Pac-Man having to fight someone who kills way before we can in plenty of ways. I have the Falcon player Fatality in my state and I get so close to killing Falcon but he's far too fast and powerful.
6.Ness- Ness is kinda gross. When I fight I Ness, I like to rush him down until I'm at back throw death percent because its easy, but when his big dome kills us or you meet a smart player you can't help but feel this is unfair. Ness is subject to change but I want to know how other Pac-Men deal with him.
7.Mega Man- Abadango may have triumphed over Ninjalink at Apex 2015 but I've been playing this match-up since 3DS release and I must say that Mega Man is more deadly than Pac-Man. On the bright side, Melon goes throw everything he has but Leaf Shield so if you do see a Mega Man spamming lemons then you have to hit him with the fruit.
8.Villager- His Pocket is basically his win condition. Villager's ability to camp the ledge is nothing to look down on. His throw might be god awful but it kills better than our Pac-Throw.
9.Falco- Falco's reflector is so annoying. Fighting Fox is much easier because Fox will probably never try to go off stage to fair us to death. Falco has most of Fox's weaknesses but some well time reflectors can but a Pac-Man in a bad position and then punished.
10.Lucario- Laggy Lucario is bad but I find him annoying because he can become the best character in the game with rage. Pac-Man doesn't have the kill options to destroy this man when he has stage presence. Now catching him with a key after he gets to the stage is oh so satisfying, but the fact remains that his Spirit Bombs of Death are too powerful and we can't stop them all. I do loving stop the Aura Sphere with Power Pellets.

Honorable Mentions: Rosaluma, Custom Mii Brawler, R.O.B., and Mario

Rosaluma is an honorable mention because I'm not to bothered by her down-b. I kinda throw out fruits and hydrants to make her do the move and then punish accordingly. Also, you can separate Rosalina and Luma by placing a hydrant in between them (the same applies to Olimar and his Pikmin) and it's funny watching Luma struggle to return to her master that we are beating up. I won't say we win this match-up but I think there are more match-ups that should come to light.

Custom Mii Brawler will probably have that Flip Kick and if he does then he is hard to chase down. If he were to grab our fruit then we would be able to time us out. This has happened to me before. I was demolishing my opponent until he got a basic Mii Brawler combo and power shielded by fruit, grabbed it, and then ran/flip kicked above me.

R.O.B- R.O.B and Pac-Man are characters that want their projectiles on the stage but I find R.O.B really annoying to fight against. Once we control the stage, then we are winning the match, but if we lose stage control then getting it back is a pain. And R.O.B has a kill throw and a spike and an up-smash

Mario is easier to fight but annoying for the same reason Luigi is but it is not as bad imo.


Keep in mind this is based on my experiences. Your experiences will probably differ from mine but I would like us to build off of ideas and experiences. You probably would know little to nothing about top players in my state so I won't go on and on about matches with them so I will to my best to keep it Pac-Man.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Hi fellow Pac-Warriors,
I got some match-up insight that you would find interesting whether or not you agree with what I have to say.
I think Pac-Man's worst match-ups are the Top Tiers (who woulda guessed?) and a few random awkward characters.
I think I've compiled a good top ten match ups you would want to be as ready for as possible with explanation.
I hope the colors aren't too much for you.

Pac-Match Ups I hate (Sheik is self explanatory):
1.Sonic- I hate Sonic because he is too fast and I actually believe him to be harder to fight than Sheik. My reasoning for that is because if we mess up he picks up our fruit then he doesn't actually have to fight us. He could time us out or watch us try to approach him to get our fruit back. YOU NEVER WANNA APPROACH SONIC. He is Punish the Hedgehog. I think all characters than just dodge Pac-Man could do the same and time us out but playing like that isn't fun. But we play to win.
2.Luigi- Green Mario is the Brain Dead Character Incarnate. Sure there is skill in Luigi but I can only see that in top level play when you have the Luigi player read everything the opponent is doing. But when you're fighting a Luigi you do your best but he kills to fast.
3.Yoshi- Yoshi's mobility and damage output are just far to overwhelming. Trading moves in a pain in the back, eggs are annoying, and we can't kill him as easily as he can kill us. I also think that not too many people play Yoshi but I'm not sure why.
4.ZSS- I actually play ZSS and I think she is just far too fast. A lot of things we find safe, she can disrupt then punish accordingly. I think her speed on the ground and in air is too overwhelming.
5.C. Falcon- His speed and strength and back air are hard to fight against. I think this is basically Pac-Man having to fight someone who kills way before we can in plenty of ways. I have the Falcon player Fatality in my state and I get so close to killing Falcon but he's far too fast and powerful.
6.Ness- Ness is kinda gross. When I fight I Ness, I like to rush him down until I'm at back throw death percent because its easy, but when his big dome kills us or you meet a smart player you can't help but feel this is unfair. Ness is subject to change but I want to know how other Pac-Men deal with him.
7.Mega Man- Abadango may have triumphed over Ninjalink at Apex 2015 but I've been playing this match-up since 3DS release and I must say that Mega Man is more deadly than Pac-Man. On the bright side, Melon goes throw everything he has but Leaf Shield so if you do see a Mega Man spamming lemons then you have to hit him with the fruit.
8.Villager- His Pocket is basically his win condition. Villager's ability to camp the ledge is nothing to look down on. His throw might be god awful but it kills better than our Pac-Throw.
9.Falco- Falco's reflector is so annoying. Fighting Fox is much easier because Fox will probably never try to go off stage to fair us to death. Falco has most of Fox's weaknesses but some well time reflectors can but a Pac-Man in a bad position and then punished.
10.Lucario- Laggy Lucario is bad but I find him annoying because he can become the best character in the game with rage. Pac-Man doesn't have the kill options to destroy this man when he has stage presence. Now catching him with a key after he gets to the stage is oh so satisfying, but the fact remains that his Spirit Bombs of Death are too powerful and we can't stop them all. I do loving stop the Aura Sphere with Power Pellets.

Honorable Mentions: Rosaluma, Custom Mii Brawler, R.O.B., and Mario

Rosaluma is an honorable mention because I'm not to bothered by her down-b. I kinda throw out fruits and hydrants to make her do the move and then punish accordingly. Also, you can separate Rosalina and Luma by placing a hydrant in between them (the same applies to Olimar and his Pikmin) and it's funny watching Luma struggle to return to her master that we are beating up. I won't say we win this match-up but I think there are more match-ups that should come to light.

Custom Mii Brawler will probably have that Flip Kick and if he does then he is hard to chase down. If he were to grab our fruit then we would be able to time us out. This has happened to me before. I was demolishing my opponent until he got a basic Mii Brawler combo and power shielded by fruit, grabbed it, and then ran/flip kicked above me.

R.O.B- R.O.B and Pac-Man are characters that want their projectiles on the stage but I find R.O.B really annoying to fight against. Once we control the stage, then we are winning the match, but if we lose stage control then getting it back is a pain. And R.O.B has a kill throw and a spike and an up-smash

Mario is easier to fight but annoying for the same reason Luigi is but it is not as bad imo.


Keep in mind this is based on my experiences. Your experiences will probably differ from mine but I would like us to build off of ideas and experiences. You probably would know little to nothing about top players in my state so I won't go on and on about matches with them so I will to my best to keep it Pac-Man.

A few notes about these matchups you mentioned...
Luigi and Falcon are easily destroyed by Pac's Trampoline. It stops them from using their excellent grab game and combo game as efficently as usual. Ness and Zero Suit Samus are sort of similar in this manner, but they're less close combat orientated.
Lucario's neutral easily gets beaten out by Pacs outside of Aura Sphere. Enough said.
I don't know why Fox is not there when Falco is, when Fox is literally the stronger threat to us.
Megaman, as you mentioned, gets destroyed by our Melons. In fact, he gets destroyed in the ranged game if we actually grab his Metal Blade and keep it.
Villager only really screws us if he has pocketed our fruit AND has it in our hand. And that stops him from using his primary spacing tool - Forward and Back Air.

Also, on a bit of a sarcastic and fun note, R.O.B has an Up Smash? I didn't know!

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hello, Pac-Man mains! The Kirby Boards are now currently discussing your main man Pac-Man! If you could contribute and tell us how this MU goes, we'd love to hear it over here at the "True Arena!" Thank you so much, and good luck catching those ghosts!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Not only would we need to time it well, but I'm not sure if Utilt has enough horizontal coverage to handle optimal Sheik Fair / Nair spacing.

Another thing: Our ghosts are funky. They're not transcendent for sure, but I don't know if their entire animations can be cancelled out. I did more testing vs. some other Fsmashes. When properly spaced against Ganon's, for example, Ganon's would override Blinky's first hit but get hit by the sourspot. Same thing would happen when I did it with Sonic's Fsmash. The same thing happened for Clyde / Pinky, but it was harder to pull off since they don't go as far.

I guess this means the two hitboxes are fully separate.

Does it matter what ghost you are hitting when you use your Smashes? Or do each have different properties.

 

[BSP]

Does it matter what ghost you are hitting when you use your Smashes? Or do each have different properties.

They all have that property (informally dubbed "trample").

 

[Neutricity]

A few notes about these matchups you mentioned...
Luigi and Falcon are easily destroyed by Pac's Trampoline. It stops them from using their excellent grab game and combo game as efficently as usual. Ness and Zero Suit Samus are sort of similar in this manner, but they're less close combat orientated.
Lucario's neutral easily gets beaten out by Pacs outside of Aura Sphere. Enough said.
I don't know why Fox is not there when Falco is, when Fox is literally the stronger threat to us.
Megaman, as you mentioned, gets destroyed by our Melons. In fact, he gets destroyed in the ranged game if we actually grab his Metal Blade and keep it.
Villager only really screws us if he has pocketed our fruit AND has it in our hand. And that stops him from using his primary spacing tool - Forward and Back Air.

Also, on a bit of a sarcastic and fun note, R.O.B has an Up Smash? I didn't know!

You don't have my experiences so you wouldn't see it my way.
Just know that eventually Luigi and Falcon are gonna get in no matter how many trampolines you set up. The trampoline is great but it isn't a god send. Plus, if they are a good player then the falcon can punish the trampoline with an up-air string and Luigi can just fair us to death because we are putting ourselves in the air. Now we have our trampoline set up, but then what do we do to win after that?
You mention that Lucario's neutral is beaten but Pac-Man but how does that win the match up when he has an easier time killing us? You aren't being clear on that.
I beat Foxes really often because their reflector is garbage and punishable, the fox laser doesn't make me flinch so I can charge all day, Pac-Man can easily avoid his up air and an up smash. Meanwhile, Falco has better tools to chase down Pac-Man.
Grabbing Megman's Metal Blade doesn't win the match.
Good Villagers are more keen on dropping hydrants on us, but don't think that Villager wont time you out by taking your fruit. The Villager could see Pac-Man approach him, place fruit in Pocket, throw out bair or fair, then pull fruit out of pocket. And if he gets real desperate then he could just hide under stages all day.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

You don't have my experiences so you wouldn't see it my way.
Just know that eventually Luigi and Falcon are gonna get in no matter how many trampolines you set up. The trampoline is great but it isn't a god send. Plus, if they are a good player then the falcon can punish the trampoline with an up-air string and Luigi can just fair us to death because we are putting ourselves in the air. Now we have our trampoline set up, but then what do we do to win after that?
You mention that Lucario's neutral is beaten but Pac-Man but how does that win the match up when he has an easier time killing us? You aren't being clear on that.
I beat Foxes really often because their reflector is garbage and punishable, the fox laser doesn't make me flinch so I can charge all day, Pac-Man can easily avoid his up air and an up smash. Meanwhile, Falco has better tools to chase down Pac-Man.
Grabbing Megman's Metal Blade doesn't win the match.
Good Villagers are more keen on dropping hydrants on us, but don't think that Villager wont time you out by taking your fruit. The Villager could see Pac-Man approach him, place fruit in Pocket, throw out bair or fair, then pull fruit out of pocket. And if he gets real desperate then he could just hide under stages all day.

Especially if it is custom villager right?
Plus if you grab metal blade, doesn't that mean you can't use your fruits?

 

[Neutricity]

Especially if it is custom villager right?
Plus if you grab metal blade, doesn't that mean you can't use your fruits?

You can use the fruits but you cannot pick them up. Also, Pac-Man has some pretty meaty aerials but he can't do them when holding a Metal Blade.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

You can use the fruits but you cannot pick them up. Also, Pac-Man has some pretty meaty aerials but he can't do them when holding a Metal Blade.

So it does have its setbacks for sure.......not being rude but is his air game really all that good?
I mean I'm not so sure because I barely ever see Pacs on FG so I don't really get to see his air game much, if at all.
From what I think I can remember is that they seem to have lackluster range and some of them may be laggy?
Also idk if any of them KO.

 

[Neutricity]

So it does have its setbacks for sure.......not being rude but is his air game really all that good?
I mean I'm not so sure because I barely ever see Pacs on FG so I don't really get to see his air game much, if at all.
From what I think I can remember is that they seem to have lackluster range and some of them may be laggy?
Also idk if any of them KO.

Pac's air game is not the best, but he just has strong aerials. And its possible to fair your opponent off stage then they die.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

You can use the fruits but you cannot pick them up. Also, Pac-Man has some pretty meaty aerials but he can't do them when holding a Metal Blade.

That's not true. If you want to perform aerials with an item in your hand just press z before the aerial. You will toss the fruit, you will perform the aerial, and you will pick it again.

To perform our bread & butter combo:

Jump -> Fair -> Nair.

With the fruit in the ground....

Jump -> Fair -> z -> Nair.

Just press Z before every aerial.

 

[Froggy]

That's not true. If you want to perform aerials with an item in your hand just press z before the aerial. You will toss the fruit, you will perform the aerial, and you will pick it again.

This is something I definately gotta learn how to do.

Edit: I'm starting to think Pacman vs Link on FD is a hard counter against Pacman.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

This is something I definately gotta learn how to do.

Edit: I'm starting to think Pacman vs Link on FD is a hard counter against Pacman.

I have a really hard time playing against a good link

 

[Maziyah]

I have a really hard time playing against a good link

So do I

 

[Megamon]

So do I

You in the smash bros fb group?

 

[Maziyah]

You in the smash bros fb group?

Lol yeah i am

 

[Megamon]

Lol yeah i am

Good....good. Haha. Cool. I'm down to play friendlies whenever I'm near a Wii U. I'll message you on fb if you'd like.

 

[Maziyah]

Good....good. Haha. Cool. I'm down to play friendlies whenever I'm near a Wii U. I'll message you on fb if you'd like.

Alright dude

 

[dragontamer]

I have issues thinking that the enemy is unsafe when in fact they've got awesome aerial autocancels (or recovery time) that I rage against.

Link, Mario, and of course... Shiek (fair fair fair).

I haven't really figured out what to do against Shiek's neutral game yet. Link is a bit slow on the ground so I get a lot of preempts. Mario has range issues, so careful positioning can allow me to "wall him out". Got nothing on Shiek however.

 

[Splebel]

I've had luck on reading Sheik's Bouncing Fish and SH Fairing it. I think we beat I if she's on the upwards arc.I didn't save any replays of it and even if I did, they would've been deleted in the update anyway. However top level sheiks I don't think approach with Bouncing Fish. The Sheik Boards also say that the best practice is to spotdodge cause of the high landing lag.

Would weird fruit launches be useful against Sheik? I love using fruits with hydrants to approach.

 

[Megamon]

I have issues thinking that the enemy is unsafe when in fact they've got awesome aerial autocancels (or recovery time) that I rage against.

Link, Mario, and of course... Shiek (fair fair fair).

I haven't really figured out what to do against Shiek's neutral game yet. Link is a bit slow on the ground so I get a lot of preempts. Mario has range issues, so careful positioning can allow me to "wall him out". Got nothing on Shiek however.

That usually happens to me against people with nice nairs, or even Olimar tricks me sometimes aerial wise. Recently, I played a sheik at some local and did fine, but I was playing opposite of how I usually play (which I usually am very aggressive) because I couldn't seem to get any sort of hits in except trades, and it wasn't working in my favor. Kept running away half the match and ended up winning. There a way to best a good sheik by not having to play so...dastardly??

 

[Tornado]

So despite my woes I have stated in this topic about facing Sheik with pac-man, I went 2-0 in matches (both matches won 2-0) against Sheik in the Wii U tournament at Super Smash Con this weekend (one being against a notable person, Wizzrobe).

 

[Megamon]

So despite my woes I have stated in this topic about facing Sheik with pac-man, I went 2-0 in matches (both matches won 2-0) against Sheik in the Wii U tournament at Super Smash Con this weekend (one being against a notable person, Wizzrobe).

Yeah man. She's definitely not way out of our league .

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Haven't posted in a while, but I thought I'd share something I found amusing. My friend told me "he swears Marth counters PAC-MAN" because Marth's aerials negate falling hydrant. I mean, plenty of characters do that, why is Marth so special? And just because you can negate falling hydrant doesn't mean the matchup is in your favor. PAC-MAN is way more than just dropping hydrants (contrary to what some people might think, ).

I've also been thinking of what Pac's worst matchups are. Seeing as I only play him and I play very very much, I've been thinking about it for a while. Right now, I'm tentatively assuming worst matchups are Mario, Sonic, ZSS, Rosalina and possibly the Star Fox characters.

 

[Nu~]

Haven't posted in a while, but I thought I'd share something I found amusing. My friend told me "he swears Marth counters PAC-MAN" because Marth's aerials negate falling hydrant. I mean, plenty of characters do that, why is Marth so special? And just because you can negate falling hydrant doesn't mean the matchup is in your favor. PAC-MAN is way more than just dropping hydrants (contrary to what some people might think, ).

I've also been thinking of what Pac's worst matchups are. Seeing as I only play him and I play very very much, I've been thinking about it for a while. Right now, I'm tentatively assuming worst matchups are Mario, Sonic, ZSS, Rosalina and possibly the Star Fox characters.

You should see me and @ BSP 's analysis' in the other matchup thread.

Mario is a battle that you want to play really lame in, as in hiding behind the trampoline and punishing his landing attempts, Bairing him out of the sky, and healing off of fireballs.

Sonic and Fox are more trampoline battles, but fox suffers more since he can't kill us with a grab.
Ask @Zage for more info on sonic one since he believes that we win this one, or @ BSP who plays the matchup all the time.

Rosalina is a very complex and annoying battle with pellet healing and a bunch of other stuff that is explained better in the other matchup thread.



Edit:
@Everyone
How are you struggling against link? Are you playing in high internet lag? You can be lame and sit behind your hydrant (none of his projectiles can one shot it), or you can try and pellet heal off of his long range game. We can handle in CQC too since our frame data is a lot cleaner. You want to space really well though since he outranges us,but that's about it.

I play with @Rizen (online admittably) and never found link to be a "hard counter"

You don't have my experiences so you wouldn't see it my way.
Just know that eventually Luigi and Falcon are gonna get in no matter how many trampolines you set up. The trampoline is great but it isn't a god send. Plus, if they are a good player then the falcon can punish the trampoline with an up-air string and Luigi can just fair us to death because we are putting ourselves in the air. Now we have our trampoline set up, but then what do we do to win after that?
You mention that Lucario's neutral is beaten but Pac-Man but how does that win the match up when he has an easier time killing us? You aren't being clear on that.
I beat Foxes really often because their reflector is garbage and punishable, the fox laser doesn't make me flinch so I can charge all day, Pac-Man can easily avoid his up air and an up smash. Meanwhile, Falco has better tools to chase down Pac-Man.
Grabbing Megman's Metal Blade doesn't win the match.
Good Villagers are more keen on dropping hydrants on us, but don't think that Villager wont time you out by taking your fruit. The Villager could see Pac-Man approach him, place fruit in Pocket, throw out bair or fair, then pull fruit out of pocket. And if he gets real desperate then he could just hide under stages all day.

You are definitely using the trampoline wrong then. You can move out o the sky before luigi or falcon gets to the other side. Then proceed to lame them out there. As a zoner, you should know that we play to keep the opponent out. If they get to kill percentage, we either one them out if they don't approach, or kill them when they do approach. Bruh, do you know about the F-air to key/bell or the DITCIT Cherry to Inky? We don't have kill troubles as long as you practice the setups.

Ummm, Falco has an even worse approach. The only thing he has going is a safe(er) reflector. He still scratches his head when he has to jump through trampolines to get to us. What's he gonna do? Lame us out with lasers that we can block with grounded power pellets? When he gets in he wrecks, but it is just too easy to keep him out with smart zoning play.
Villager can't win like that lol. Power shield the weak priority slingshots and beat his ass. As soon as he catches your fruit, start charging. He can't stop you from charging while the fruit is going in his pocket. You then get a free key and continue the fight from there with our better CQC and killing projectiles ready to come out at any moment.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

You should see me and @ BSP 's analysis' in the other matchup thread.

Mario is a battle that you want to play really lame in, as in hiding behind the trampoline and punishing his landing attempts, Bairing him out of the sky, and healing off of fireballs.

Sonic and Fox are more trampoline battles, but fox suffers more since he can't kill us with a grab.
Ask @Zage for more info on sonic one since he believes that we win this one, or @ BSP who plays the matchup all the time.

Rosalina is a very complex and annoying battle with pellet healing and a bunch of other stuff that is explained better in the other matchup thread.



Edit:
@Everyone
How are you struggling against link? Are you playing in high internet lag? You can be lame and sit behind your hydrant (none of his projectiles can one shot it), or you can try and pellet heal off of his long range game. We can handle in CQC too since our frame data is a lot cleaner. You want to space really well though since he outranges us,but that's about it.

I play with @Rizen (online admittably) and never found link to be a "hard counter"

The past week I had been labbing extensively against Mario. I agree that this matchup is not one to be stylish or have fun in, this is a matchup that requires safe, lame gameplay. This boils down to staying in the lead as much as possible, so Mario approaches and it just becomes a huge punish game. All his aerial approaches are beat out by Pac-Jump and nair oos, and if you time it right, utilt. If Mario lands with an aerial that is too spaced out for Pac-Jump or nair to not be utilized, use ftilt or dtilt. I'd recommend using downwards ftilt because it comes out 1 frame earlier than normal ftilt. dtilt covers very good space in which Mario positions himself.

The hardest part of this matchup is Pac killing Mario. PAC-MAN cannot kill as easy as Mario can kill PAC-MAN. Pac requires setups and reads while Mario just needs an Usmash or Dsmash to hit. Staying in the lead is so important because of the fact Pac needs time to setup for the kill. And as said before staying in the lead causes Mario to approach which then the entire game becomes a defend and punish game. Also using strawberries are great against Mario, since they can be thrown in a high arc that his cape cannot hit and hits him on the head. It's also just harder in general for Mario to cape. Apple-launched hydrant should be the only way you launch hydrant, because Mario has a hard time reflecting it and if he does you can punish the cape since the hydrant won't go hurling at you directly.

I have been labbing very very much against Sonic and Rosa as well, and have a few tricks.

 

[Nu~]

The past week I had been labbing extensively against Mario. I agree that this matchup is not one to be stylish or have fun in, this is a matchup that requires safe, lame gameplay. This boils down to staying in the lead as much as possible, so Mario approaches and it just becomes a huge punish game. All his aerial approaches are beat out by Pac-Jump and nair oos, and if you time it right, utilt. If Mario lands with an aerial that is too spaced out for Pac-Jump or nair to not be utilized, use ftilt or dtilt. I'd recommend using downwards ftilt because it comes out 1 frame earlier than normal ftilt. dtilt covers very good space in which Mario positions himself.

The hardest part of this matchup is Pac killing Mario. PAC-MAN cannot kill as easy as Mario can kill PAC-MAN. Pac requires setups and reads while Mario just needs an Usmash or Dsmash to hit. Staying in the lead is so important because of the fact Pac needs time to setup for the kill. And as said before staying in the lead causes Mario to approach which then the entire game becomes a defend and punish game. Also using strawberries are great against Mario, since they can be thrown in a high arc that his cape cannot hit and hits him on the head. It's also just harder in general for Mario to cape. Apple-launched hydrant should be the only way you launch hydrant, because Mario has a hard time reflecting it and if he does you can punish the cape since the hydrant won't go hurling at you directly.

I have been labbing very very much against Sonic and Rosa as well, and have a few tricks.

Ah. Yeah, killing is the hardest part of a matchup for us sometimes.

We've actually labbed a few kill setups in the kill confirm thread that I made.

F-air -> Key/Bell (I like bell better since it allows for an fsmash or usmash punish which hits harder than a key)

DITCIT Cherry -> Usmash
http://youtu.be/eMwqkGxDRhU
Here's a link just in case you don't know how to perform it

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Ah. Yeah, killing is the hardest part of a matchup for us sometimes.

We've actually labbed a few kill setups in the kill confirm thread that I made.

F-air -> Key/Bell (I like bell better since it allows for an fsmash or usmash punish which hits harder than a key)

DITCIT Cherry -> Usmash
http://youtu.be/eMwqkGxDRhU
Here's a link just in case you don't know how to perform it

can you throw the cherry to hit them then usmash? or can you only throw it up?

 

[Nu~]

can you throw the cherry to hit them then usmash? or can you only throw it up?

Yeah, you can throw it forward

 

[Splebel]

Haven't posted in a while, but I thought I'd share something I found amusing. My friend told me "he swears Marth counters PAC-MAN" because Marth's aerials negate falling hydrant. I mean, plenty of characters do that, why is Marth so special? And just because you can negate falling hydrant doesn't mean the matchup is in your favor. PAC-MAN is way more than just dropping hydrants (contrary to what some people might think, ).

I've also been thinking of what Pac's worst matchups are. Seeing as I only play him and I play very very much, I've been thinking about it for a while. Right now, I'm tentatively assuming worst matchups are Mario, Sonic, ZSS, Rosalina and possibly the Star Fox characters.

It should also be mentioned that Marth's fair stops all fruit including key. But that's probably just me throwing fruit to loose.

How are you struggling against link? Are you playing in high internet lag? You can be lame and sit behind your hydrant (none of his projectiles can one shot it), or you can try and pellet heal off of his long range game. We can handle in CQC too since our frame data is a lot cleaner. You want to space really well though since he outranges us,but that's about it.

I wouldn't recommend the pellet heal on his arrows cause in my experience he usually just waits until you extend the pellet too far and then punishes.

Ummm, Falco has an even worse approach. The only thing he has going is a safe(er) reflector. He still scratches his head when he has to jump through trampolines to get to us. What's he gonna do? Lame us out with lasers that we can block with grounded power pellets? When he gets in he wrecks, but it is just too easy to keep him out with smart zoning play.

I've had luck on a reflector happy Falco (the ones that when you drop a hydrant like to run up to it and spam reflector so there is no way you can win that war) is to Full hop apple toss over the reflector. It's satisfying. It doesn't work as well if they are more conservative though.

 

[Nu~]

It should also be mentioned that Marth's fair stops all fruit including key. But that's probably just me throwing fruit to loose.




I wouldn't recommend the pellet heal on his arrows cause in my experience he usually just waits until you extend the pellet too far and then punishes.



I've had luck on a reflector happy Falco (the ones that when you drop a hydrant like to run up to it and spam reflector so there is no way you can win that war) is to Full hop apple toss over the reflector. It's satisfying. It doesn't work as well if they are more conservative though.

Which is why you pellet heal on reaction to weaker arrows. If it's a fully charged arrow, a hydrant can tank it

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Wait, when is fair to bell and key guaranteed? I thought it was only guaranteed at ~140-150%?

 

[MachoCheeze]

Okay, I feel dumb as hell asking this

But what are we supposed to do against a Luigi who has gotten so good at catching Keys (and every other fruit)? My friend has a very good luigi and I swear he's the most frustrating character in the game. I KNOW we should win this match up, but no matter how lame I play I can't win.

 

[Nu~]

Wait, when is fair to bell and key guaranteed? I thought it was only guaranteed at ~140-150%?

http://youtu.be/_OUh_IwA0bc

Labbed it, and yes it is a true combo at %s this low. Lightweights die super early to it

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

Okay, I feel dumb as hell asking this

But what are we supposed to do against a Luigi who has gotten so good at catching Keys (and every other fruit)? My friend has a very good luigi and I swear he's the most frustrating character in the game. I KNOW we should win this match up, but no matter how lame I play I can't win.

I really really like using caught galaxians as punish tools and combo setups. It's a really amazing projectile. He can't catch that if you're worried about it.

Also use trampoline as a punish and keep it on stage at all times. It crumbles Luigis grab game if used effectively. Also use spaced bair's because if Luigi doesn't perfect shield it sends him back a lot. Try using fruits like z dropped melon and galaxian with fairs to keep hydrant pressure.

Try b reversing fruits like oranges or keys if he's chasing you or hes in a position where he wont have time to grab an item.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

http://youtu.be/_OUh_IwA0bc

Labbed it, and yes it is a true combo at %s this low. Lightweights die super early to it

is it one of those combos that is guaranteed but training mode doesn't label it as one? Or something like that, I've heard of combos being guranteed by only off by a few frames so training mode doesn't count it