Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Nu~]

How do you punish sheik's fish bouncing? I'm having problems punishing it....

No one can unless you can catch the landing with a fast projectile (key). You can punish it easier if she lands on the ground instead of your shield however

 

[Firedemon0]

How do you punish sheik's fish bouncing? I'm having problems punishing it....

Orange. Thats really about it, Sheik has so many "safe" moves on shield its ridiculous.

 

[Froggy]

Anyone have any advice against Mii Brawler? The fact that he can kill you so much earlier than you can kill him with all his sets ups into Up B(this is the tornado kick custom) just seems insurmountable to me.

 

[Jenny Wakeman]

How do you punish sheik's fish bouncing? I'm having problems punishing it....

First thing I think of when punishing Sheik is... you don't. Sheik is probably the safest character in the game in neutral and can out camp us easily. Don't try and punish BF because your attempt at punishing it will most likely cost you even more in the long run.

 

[Nu~]

Well, she can't out camp us with needles because hydrant & fruit beat them, and her fair is punishable by our trampoline OoS.
BF however isn't too punishable on block

 

[Froggy]

Well, she can't out camp us with needles because hydrant & fruit beat them, and her fair is punishable by our trampoline OoS.
BF however isn't too punishable on block

OMG the things you learn on here sometimes. That'll definiately be a big help.

 

[NimbusSpark]

OMG the things you learn on here sometimes. That'll definiately be a big help.

Yep. We're one of the few characters, like Kirby and WFT, who can force Shiek to approach and stop needle camping, except we don't do it via an insanely small crouch like the characters previously stated.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Uuuuh......Kirby?
Idk I'm bored....seriously I feel like the boards for my mains are....not all too exciting.
Btw what do pacmans customs do?

Idk....if we can talk about Kirby, then I guess it would cool.

 

[Neutricity]

How do you punish sheik's fish bouncing? I'm having problems punishing it....

You don't. But if you catch them making a mistake then I suggest you shield then have a Key/Orange in hand.

 

[Froggy]

You don't. But if you catch them making a mistake then I suggest you shield then have a Key/Orange in hand.

Maybe jump oos Enticing Pellet could work here.

 

[Neutricity]

Maybe jump oos Enticing Pellet could work here.

I still think sheik would have to screw up for Enticing or a Fruit to happen. But if they somehow are in front of you then why the hell not!!! #DownwithSheik

 

[Froggy]

I still think sheik would have to screw up for Enticing or a Fruit to happen. But if they somehow are in front of you then why the hell not!!! #DownwithSheik

Well I'm thinking about it and if we can cover both shiek staying near and far after bouncing fish then we're good. Enticing for when she stays close, and Key/orange if she goes far.

 

[Nu~]

I'll try to test it with my brother.

 

[fromundaman]

Easier said than done, but to punish bouncing fish, spotdodge.

Actually I was recently told spotdodge is really good in general against Shiek.

 

[Froggy]

Easier said than done, but to punish bouncing fish, spotdodge.

Actually I was recently told spotdodge is really good in general against Shiek.

It's a lot easier to punish you roll out of the way instead. Spot dodge isn't really good against her if she likes to jab, it's a pain if she repeatedly f tilts as well.

 

[Revibe]

How many other people are starting to recognize the different way Pac-Man sets up combo's? I mean, the priority of his actions determine the play-style and the play-style is spacey. I mean getting your distance balanced between the player, dropped fruit, the hydrant, and the ground is a bit more trickier when his attacks have lower priority. .............
....
I don't know, I feel like attacking less hastily and keeping light on your feet is a better play style for him. I mean lowering your attacks also lowers your opponents opportunity to punish, and having more trampolines and hydrants open up more opportunities to punish.

...

 

[abit_rusty]

How many other people are starting to recognize the different way Pac-Man sets up combo's? I mean, the priority of his actions determine the play-style and the play-style is spacey. I mean getting your distance balanced between the player, dropped fruit, the hydrant, and the ground is a bit more trickier when his attacks have lower priority. .............
....
I don't know, I feel like attacking less hastily and keeping light on your feet is a better play style for him. I mean lowering your attacks also lowers your opponents opportunity to punish, and having more trampolines and hydrants open up more opportunities to punish.

...

What exactly are you getting at here?

Are you saying it's tough to balance between trapping and going aggression? Because I'd argue it's entirely dependent on the character matchup.

But seriously your post is difficult to read lol

 

[Revibe]

What exactly are you getting at here?

Are you saying it's tough to balance between trapping and going aggression? Because I'd argue it's entirely dependent on the character matchup.

But seriously your post is difficult to read lol

I don't know how others play, but usually the A moves have really soft hits with tiny/precise hit boxes. I figure it is better to just go as a strike and run kinda deal. It happens to often where I'll getting some hits in, and they'll just be able to attack over mine next to instantly.
(The smash attacks are fine, I mostly just am talking about the tilts and air moves.)

 

[Sinji]

Regarding the earlier discussion about Shieks bouncing fish, everyone is correct saying the orange/key can punish it but only if the Shiek player doesn't land on a platform afterwards. I was talking to Vinnie about the Pac-Man vs Shiek match up overall and we both agree that the match up is in Shiek's favor. Shiek has a better neutral game. But the greatest thing we can exploit and the thing he said was Shiek's biggest weakness is trades. Our back air does 11% vs shiek's 5% which is great. We then were talking about customs and he said he rather go neutral needles because it has more range then the piercing needles. Also the On fire hydrant is a good custom for us in this match up. Nair and Up B is our bread and butter OOS options. If the shiek player does a late fair, we can't nair oos unless we power shield it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You guys seems like smart people, so I imagine this may be old news, but I was screwing around with Pac-Man and found that he can get a guaranteed 37% off a grounded footstool with a Key in hand:

That sounds situational, but with trampoline harassment and Pac-Man's general inclination to jump around, he can do this out of a short-hop airdodge with surprisingly reliably results, I think. Footstools are Frame 6 from the ground (Frame 5 jumpsquat + Frame 1 footstool), so it's potentially quick, too. Might work as a decent alternative to a grab, heh.

Also, U-Air is funny.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When you do a Ledge Jump, most actions cannot be buffered, meaning you have to wait a frame before doing an action.

Apparently, you can buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump with a Grab input. This puts the item hitbox out on the same frame you become vulnerable.

The place the item is dropped is character-dependent. Of the item-spawning characters, Pac-Man is the only character that drops the item over the ledge. This allows him to cover his Ledge Jump with a powerful hitbox. You can buffer an item drop and re-catch it immediately with an airdodge, as well.

 

[fromundaman]

Daaaaaaamn! Reflex with the tech right now!

Between this and what Pacman9 found in the other thread, it's a good week to be a Pacman main!

 

[Nu~]

@ BSP Where do you stand in the ZSS matchup? I personally feel that it is even, but her Nair approach may be a bit hard to punish OoS due to its dumb range

 

[Maziyah]

I feel Pac-man versus ZSS is equal but im yet to face a pro ZSS, on the ladder however I played really good ones. QUESTION: How do you deal with the Link and Olimar match ups ? Theyre not difficult, I just havent faced a lot of Olimars nor have I faced a lot of aggressive Links.

 

[Zage]

Incase anyone is wondering. Key destroys Ryu's hadoukens and retains its hitbox. Galaga/Bell destroy them, but lose their hitboxes. Every other fruit clanks with them.

Side-B of course absorbs hadoukens so you can pick them up.

 

[Firedemon0]

First impressions of Ryu and Roy.

Roy is legit, but Pac-man still has a favorable matchup similar to Marth and Lucina.

Ryu, Little mac with a fireball and better side recovery. Cool fighter, and I enjoyed trying him out, but Pac-man, thus far, seems to wreck him.

 

[BSP]

If someone is trying to shield camp you, a good setup to eat half their shield or more is:

Get a galaxian in hand -> plant hydrant -> throw galaxian as you're falling off of hydrant -> fair hydrant -> run with both of your projectiles

The closer you plant the hydrant to them, the better. They'll probably start shielding the moment you come remotely close.

The galaxian thrown from hand can't be stolen, and if it and the hydrant touch their shield, that's 21% assuming the galaxian only hits once. That's 4% from half of the shield gone immediately, and that's not accounting for the time they're sitting there with shield up.

You're free to do whatever for more pressure. FH Nair will do 10% more to it while keeping you very safe, or you can use auto-phantom fruit (galaxian is out, so it's going to happen) mid dash to go into an F or Dsmash. If the galaxian hit twice, I'd go for the Fsmash to attempt a shield break. That's 13% (launched hydrant) + 18% (2 galaxian hits) + 16% (Fsmash) = 47%, most likely a broken shield.

If they get out of this without %, I assure you their shield will be hurting. Drop another hydrant, Fair launch it ASAP, and continue chasing them down.

Edit: If you can get a Key in hand, get on top of them and Zdrop Key(15%) -> Hydrant drop (9%) -> Hydrant launched from Key (13%) + Bair (12%) = 49%, which should be a broken shield unless they powershield something.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

When you do a Ledge Jump, most actions cannot be buffered, meaning you have to wait a frame before doing an action.

Apparently, you can buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump with a Grab input. This puts the item hitbox out on the same frame you become vulnerable.

The place the item is dropped is character-dependent. Of the item-spawning characters, Pac-Man is the only character that drops the item over the ledge. This allows him to cover his Ledge Jump with a powerful hitbox. You can buffer an item drop and re-catch it immediately with an airdodge, as well.

Guys!!!! I discovered a new tech with buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump. If you drop an hydrant on the ledge and do this tech, the fruit will be launched a BIG DISTANCE with his hitbox active. They key flies from one ledge to the other one. You can do crazy things with this like launch hydrant + flying key or melon or you can do the high water jump + launch hydrant + flying key. I'm working on this.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Guys!!!! I discovered a new tech with buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump. If you drop an hydrant on the ledge and do this tech, the fruit will be launched a BIG DISTANCE with his hitbox active. They key flies from one ledge to the other one. You can do crazy things with this like launch hydrant + flying key or melon or you can do the high water jump + launch hydrant + flying key. I'm working on this.

Pepe here, doing some lab work! Nice one, man.
Although, in complete honesty, I'd rather that we'd see you say this on the Advanced Techniques and Strategy Thread instead of here, which is match-up discussions and all that. Doesn't make too much sense.
Sorry for bringing that up.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, this is the metagame and match-up discussion thread. It seems appropriate for the former.

 

[Nu~]

Guys!!!! I discovered a new tech with buffer an item drop during a Ledge Jump. If you drop an hydrant on the ledge and do this tech, the fruit will be launched a BIG DISTANCE with his hitbox active. They key flies from one ledge to the other one. You can do crazy things with this like launch hydrant + flying key or melon or you can do the high water jump + launch hydrant + flying key. I'm working on this.

Can't replicate this. The hydrant flies off the side of the ledge and the key stays on the ground.

What's the timing?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If I had to guess, it'd likely depend on the position of the Hydrant rather than the timing.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

@ wii u I can drop an hydrant grab the ledge and jump before the first water gush, at 3DS I suck, but it is an idea...

Anyway I hope that helps, there are a lot of possiblilities....

 

[MachoCheeze]

Guys this is embarrassing as hell, but what kind of advice do you guys have against Zelda?

I just keep getting overwhelmed by my friend's Zelda to the point of rage. I put trampolines down to nullify her teleport and I shield a lot against her projectiles. BUT I JUST CAN'T DEAL WITH HER. I don't GET IT. Sorry If I'm being dramatic but I'm so angry over this.

 

[Nu~]

So how do you guys fare against Roy?
This feels difficult... He's fast like sheik but hits like ganon. I just don't understand it. Maybe I need to play more defensively?

 

[MachoCheeze]

So how do you guys fare against Roy?
This feels difficult... He's fast like sheik but hits like ganon. I just don't understand it. Maybe I need to play more defensively?

Defensively is the best method in this MU. Limit his approach options with trampoline and find a way to get him off stage. His recovery is very exploitable. Dropping hydrants on him works wonders offstage. Up close he's a hell of a fighter and outdoes us pretty well.

 

[Nu~]

Defensively is the best method in this MU. Limit his approach options with trampoline and find a way to get him off stage. His recovery is very exploitable. Dropping hydrants on him works wonders offstage. Up close he's a hell of a fighter and outdoes us petty well.

Thanks man, and for Zelda, you want to take advantage of her bad nuetral. If she spams dins fire and reflector, let her approach you and punish her whenever she presses B.

This is a matchup that you don't want to drop hydrants on her head because of her powerful uair and reflector. I would go on the offensive in this matchup because of zeldas poor offensive options. She's a heavy read based character

 

[MachoCheeze]

Ayy thanks homie!

We've talked about Ryu kind of, but what do you feel about the Lucas MU? I've had minimal experience with it, but I never quit had trouble so far.

I feel like our CQC beats his. But I can't really articulate on anything else yet.

 

[Nu~]

Ayy thanks homie!

We've talked about Ryu kind of, but what do you feel about the Lucas MU? I've had minimal experience with it, but I never quit had trouble so far.

I feel like our CQC beats his. But I can't really articulate on anything else yet.

I have very little experience with that matchup. He has less range than us, and has a horrible approach. I think you can go in or stay out.

Actually, let him approach you. Pk fire is annoying. Mess him up when he tries to approach because our CQC is better in both range and power.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Thanks man, and for Zelda, you want to take advantage of her bad nuetral. If she spams dins fire and reflector, let her approach you and punish her whenever she presses B.

This is a matchup that you don't want to drop hydrants on her head because of her powerful uair and reflector. I would go on the offensive in this matchup because of zeldas poor offensive options. She's a heavy read based character

True and it doesnt seem you guys have too many noteworthy laggy moves(I think) but yea we can deal with your hydrants from a distance and our projectiles wont be near as useless as other characters.

BTW about your sideB if you were to get hit out of it in midair, could you reuse it immediatly?
Also i would like to know a tad bit more about the tramp? So if its grounded, you automatically bounce when you run over it right? and if you were to do it when its red, you would immediatly go into helpless state or does that only apply to him?

I honestly dont this MU is one where Zelda needs to panic much, both characters for that matter.