Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[fromundaman]

Eh, just a couple of things to say on that synopsis:

-M2's Confusion in the air combos into his DJ Fair (For some reason the air version seems to have more hitstun), so it actually is kind of dangerous, though still relatively easy to avoid.

-Disable OoS is a surprisingly good punish tool. However I don't know whether any of Pacman's punishable moves keep him in range/facing M2 so this may not affect us at all.

-Utilt will definitely swat us out of the air, but due to it's mediocre speed it may have to be done on a read.

-Bair, Uair and Dair actually have ridiculous disjoints. They might beat our moves.


That said, key allows us to pressure M2's landing from anywhere on the map and our pressure options are good enough that I don't know if M2 has any real options to get us off of him, so along with the things you mentioned, he may have trouble; not sure yet.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Would anyone be able to give me some advice agaiast Mega Man? A good friend of mine has a super good mega, and our games go pretty close, but he's usually able to edge me out.

I feel like once Pac gets in he's able to fight just fine, but mega is super good at keeping us out. Skull Barrier is a real pain in the butt.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Would anyone be able to give me some advice agaiast Mega Man? A good friend of mine has a super good mega, and our games go pretty close, but he's usually able to edge me out.

I feel like once Pac gets in he's able to fight just fine, but mega is super good at keeping us out. Skull Barrier is a real pain in the butt.

Skull Barrier? That answers everything. You two are doing Custom Battles, and he probably uses equipment just to put himself at an advantage and troll you. Tell him to fight like a man and actually use the raw ability he has.

 

[Nu~]

Would anyone be able to give me some advice agaiast Mega Man? A good friend of mine has a super good mega, and our games go pretty close, but he's usually able to edge me out.

I feel like once Pac gets in he's able to fight just fine, but mega is super good at keeping us out. Skull Barrier is a real pain in the butt.

Having fought both sides of this matchup, I feel that we have the advantage. Your melon, and every fruit above it, eat through Mega Man's projectiles. Use those to get in.
Hydrant is a good wall, but just watch out for metal blades since they pass through it. Use an ftilt after he metal blade's your hydrant to launch it at him.
Or, catch his metal blade to make your fruit charging easier.


Skull barrier is good for allowing mega man to approach better against projectile users, but he can only grab, making it difficult to apply any pressure. Run up and trampoline him. If he can't grab in time, he takes damage and you get an on stage trampoline. If he grabs you, the trampoline will break you out of it.

 

[Nu~]

Our Side B also absorbs all three hits of mega man's lemons if he shoots all three in our face. This effectively screws up his neutral game since we can simply heal of off his spam.

This forces mega man to approach...
That's very bad for him

 

[meleebrawler]

Our Side B also absorbs all three hits of mega man's lemons if he shoots all three in our face. This effectively screws up his neutral game since we can simply heal of off his spam.

This forces mega man to approach...
That's very bad for him

And how exactly are you going to use Power Pellet against lemons without a hard read?
If you try to use it in midrange without doubling back and Megaman successfully defends you're
probably going to eat a Mega Upper, or an Air Shooter if you're up there. And of course a Metal Blade, or even
a Shadow Blade goes right through it.

Even if you do successfully block lemons with it, good luck eating it without being punished by Megaman.

You're REALLY underestimating the low commitment of buster pellets. Megaman is not hampered by having to approach;
he does that all the time. Except he does it by harassing at mid-range until he sees an opening to move in, usually with a grab.
Megaman does not camp; his projectiles are too weak and fire too slowly at range.

 

[Nu~]

And how exactly are you going to use Power Pellet against lemons without a hard read?
If you try to use it in midrange without doubling back and Megaman successfully defends you're
probably going to eat a Mega Upper, or an Air Shooter if you're up there. And of course a Metal Blade, or even
a Shadow Blade goes right through it.

Even if you do successfully block lemons with it, good luck eating it without being punished by Megaman.

You're REALLY underestimating the low commitment of buster pellets. Megaman is not hampered by having to approach;
he does that all the time. Except he does it by harassing at mid-range until he sees an opening to move in, usually with a grab.
Megaman does not camp; his projectiles are too weak and fire too slowly at range.

You don't have to teach me how mega man plays. I used to main him myself.

All I'm saying is that power pellet will block buster shots in mid range. Are you forgetting we suffer NO LAG when the pellet falls? Block a lemon, trampoline away if mega approaches, or eat the pellet. It cancels our attack, meaning we don't crash into mega man. The pellet simply falls which gives us a frame advantage while mega man has to jump back to avoid the lag after his lemons. With this, he can't pester us in mid range because we sit back and feast on his assault. Metal blades have enough start up for us to thrown down a hydrant.

 

[fromundaman]

One thing you may want to note in the MU is that both characters can camp the other out HARD if they grab and keep the other's item projectile (Fruit or Saw).

 

[adom4]

Honestly, you shouldn't feel cheap if you space Ganon - remember that you're exploiting his weaknesses of poor mobility and lack of projectiles when you're spacing him.
Remember, Ganon is a character who will try and punish you for your mistakes, and punish you hard he will.
You shouldn't even be having that much trouble with him if you space him well - he's easily one of the better matchups for Pac.

Just want to add something on Dorf, almost every move he has will launch the hydrant in 1 hit, D-tilt if fresh & F-tilt are probably his best attacks to launch the hydrant.
Also it's a really fun matchup in general, a shame there aren't too many pacman mains.

 

[Nu~]

One thing you may want to note in the MU is that both characters can camp the other out HARD if they grab and keep the other's item projectile (Fruit or Saw).

Ehh...
I agree halfway. When we have the metal blade, we still have all 8 fruits, hydrants, trampolines, and a power pellet to stop lemons.

When mega man has our fruit, he loses his best projectile (lemons). This leaves him with crash bomb (not something you can camp with) and metal blades.

Metal blades are awesome, but they don't have the pressure to keep an opponent out very long.

 

[fromundaman]

Ehh...
I agree halfway. When we have the metal blade, we still have all 8 fruits, hydrants, trampolines, and a power pellet to stop lemons.

When mega man has our fruit, he loses his best projectile (lemons). This leaves him with crash bomb (not something you can camp with) and metal blades.

Metal blades are awesome, but they don't have the pressure to keep an opponent out very long.

This is false. Unless it recently got removed in the last patch, you can jab while holding items by crouching and tapping forward on the C-stick.

 

[Nu~]

This is false. Unless it recently got removed in the last patch, you can jab while holding items by crouching and tapping forward on the C-stick.

It did get removed.

Had a feeling this response would happen
Probably should have clarified...

 

[fromundaman]

It did get removed.

Had a feeling this response would happen
Probably should have clarified...

Oh wow. That's kind of a big nerf to MM in general.

He is a lot less of a threat with that gone.

I mean I guess he can still Z-drop and regrab with Nair, but that cuts down his versatility while hoarding our item by a lot.

 

[BSP]

Yeah, now people actually do lose all of their tilts, jab, and grab when they're holding our fruit.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah, now people actually do lose all of their tilts, jab, and grab when they're holding our fruit.

Good. No more annoying fruit hoarders.

 

[BSP]

I never realized that Side B's initial dash hitbox has the same strength regardless of how long side B is charged, and it's not a weak move by any means. It does 10% and has the same knockback numbers as launched hydrants.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because I've had my fair share of Bell hits that I can't follow up with a fully extended side B. Pac-Man should always be able to position himself for the initial dash to hit though, and it's an option that should be considered.

 

[Firedemon0]

I never realized that Side B's initial dash hitbox has the same strength regardless of how long side B is charged, and it's not a weak move by any means. It does 10% and has the same knockback numbers as launched hydrants.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because I've had my fair share of Bell hits that I can't follow up with a fully extended side B. Pac-Man should always be able to position himself for the initial dash to hit though, and it's an option that should be considered.

I think I covered it before somewhere, but the first hit increases in damage the longer your pellet trail and does a min of 4%. then the second hit does 6. Which covers the adds to that 10 percent if anyone is curious.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Hi! I'm new to Pac-Man and I'm very interested in playing him. I picked him up a few days ago when my friend persuaded me to give him a try due to me loving zoning techniques and that's my playstyle. I actually main DHD and sought to play pac man as a keep away character either a zoner, but I'm having a lot of trouble adjusting to how to play him. With his diverse moveset of various fruits, hydrants, trampolines and more techniques I want to be able to use them all in certain situations, but I don't know how to use them.

Some questions I have are

1) Is it really beneficial to use trampoline against any and all characters? I heard in another thread about how bowser could abuse it using his down b but I don't know if all characters can abuse it like bowser can.

2) in what situations can hydrant come in handy? I use it for spacing and keeping my opponent away and sometimes I'll use hydrant dashing and fsmash either dsmash. Other than that I don't know when to use it.

3) In what situations can you use galaxian boss to rack up damage? I've tried using it and usually my opponent shields either rolls and I don't wanna take the chance of grabbing when they shield because of the heavy punish I can get if whiffed. I'll usually repick up the galaxian with dash attack and throw it back at them again.

4) Are their other situations where side b can be used as a kill move other than alongside the hydrant? I'll only use it when my opponent recovers high.

5) What set ups can be used with the hydrants water + fruit? I've seen a key used with the watter to be pushed to the opponent then they're hit by it and die.

6) Most of the time when I use hydrant, my opponent soon attack it with a smash attack and gets rid of it very quickly. Sometimes I can read this and punish with a bair by jumping off the hydrant, but I don't know if this is the best option.

7) What are his worst MUs? I've played a lot of characters in the past few days and I've concidered Falcon a pain in the butt compared to most of the other characters I've played against.

I love playing pacman and I really look foward to using him in tournaments, but I cannot find a solid way to use him.

 

[COLINBG]

With his diverse moveset of various fruits, hydrants, trampolines and more techniques I want to be able to use them all in certain situations, but I don't know how to use them.

Yeah, there's a lot to know about, and it's difficult to use all the moves effectively. There's little bits of infromation everywhere in the different Pac threads, but I think it would be cool to make a thread only discussing and keeping track of every thing we can do with B moves (like a giant community guide for Pac's B moves), or even one thread per move (Hydrant, Fruit, Side/UpB, I dunno). Because there's a lot to say.

1) Is it really beneficial to use trampoline against any and all characters? I heard in another thread about how bowser could abuse it using his down b but I don't know if all characters can abuse it like bowser can.

It's on you. It gets the opponent in the air and stops running, so it depends if you want them to be approaching by air rather than by foot. Against characters with a great aerial mobility/air game, say Yoshi, Puff or Villager, it's good because it limits their options, but they can still deal with it fairly easily and it might end up handicapping you more than it's helping. Against rush-down characters that prefer land, like Fox, Falcon, or Diddy, it's a great tool that makes them play less agressively and relieves pressure that Pac doesn't like.

2) in what situations can hydrant come in handy? I use it for spacing and keeping my opponent away and sometimes I'll use hydrant dashing and fsmash either dsmash. Other than that I don't know when to use it.

It helps you land when dropping it under you. It can be useful to evade attacks (especially when recovering), because it stops you a moment in the air (like Fox's shine). When launched, it does 13% and kills at around 13X% while also being fast, doing great shield damage, and not going in a linear trajectory (which can be both good and bad), so it's an all around great projectile. Stops land approaches with the water, and by being a solid obstacle on the stage. Water pushed smashes are awesome. It can do pretty silly stuff combined with fruits. It can do so much.

3) In what situations can you use galaxian boss to rack up damage? I've tried using it and usually my opponent shields either rolls and I don't wanna take the chance of grabbing when they shield because of the heavy punish I can get if whiffed. I'll usually repick up the galaxian with dash attack and throw it back at them again.

I use it on stage for a couple of reasons: The opponent is approaching too close and throwing it is my only option (which shouldn't happen), to catch a landing, or to run and pick it up to drop it later. Otherwise, I use it to catch people recovering high. I don't see this ''fruit'' as a damage dealing fruit, like the Orange; it's more something to help you create safe zones and pressure a bit the opponent.

4) Are their other situations where side b can be used as a kill move other than alongside the hydrant? I'll only use it when my opponent recovers high.

When they do something punishable and they're at kill percent. When you get salty and try to gor for a hard read, too. That's not the safest thing to do, but if you're in the struggle, winning by far, or simply feeling like going for reads, it's an option.

5) What set ups can be used with the hydrants water + fruit? I've seen a key used with the watter to be pushed to the opponent then they're hit by it and die.

/watch?v=wNwReg27xhw
What Koolaid does at 5:02 is an example of what it's possible to do with the bell. I'll leave thi sone for someone else, because I'm not entirely sure how the other fruits can be used.

6) Most of the time when I use hydrant, my opponent soon attack it with a smash attack and gets rid of it very quickly. Sometimes I can read this and punish with a bair by jumping off the hydrant, but I don't know if this is the best option.

Try not to drop an hydrant too close to the opponent, but if it happens, Bair is a solid option. Not directly related to your question, but some people (both Pacs and others) tend to prioritize launching the hydrant over being safe. If you only have that in mind, it can get taken advantage of.

7) What are his worst MUs? I've played a lot of characters in the past few days and I've concidered Falcon a pain in the butt compared to most of the other characters I've played against.

He's not exactly a campy character, but he doesn't have every tool he need to rush and pressure, so characters who can outcamp you are hard to deal with. Like DHD or Toon Link. Characters who can combo easily and pressure you easily are also difficult to deal with. Like Fox and Sonic. I'd say the extremes (too campy, too always-in-your-face). However, I don't think Pac has any particularly bad MU, so you won't be completely helpless against anyone. Rosalina is probably our worst MU, because of how much Luma protects her up close, because our attacks at a distance are innefective, and because she can zone much better at a mid distance than us.

Pac is definitely not one of the easier characters (as is Duck Hunt), so don't give up on him if it seems weird. You'll get used to the moves eventually, and you'll learn how to make the best out of it.

 

[fromundaman]

/watch?v=wNwReg27xhw
What Koolaid does at 5:02 is an example of what it's possible to do with the bell. I'll leave thi sone for someone else, because I'm not entirely sure how the other fruits can be used.

I had not seen this before, and there was one of those I hadn't seen before (The one where the bell went super high up). I'm going to need to mess with that.

 

[BSP]

Rosalina is probably our worst MU, because of how much Luma protects her up close, because our attacks at a distance are innefective, and because she can zone much better at a mid distance than us.

I don't think so. Rosalina has to play aggro in the MU or Pac-Man wins, and we've definitely got tech to deal with Luma and GP. I wouldn't call it easy (yet...I want to play a Rosalina in tournament and see how the strats go), but she's not our hardest for sure.

From my experience, Sonic is our worst MU followed by Fox probably.

 

[Sinji]

I want to have a in depth discussion about the Rosalina match up. I think it's slightly in Pac-Man's favor. Pac-Man has the tools to be aggressive and make the rosalina player feel uncomfortable.

Oranges is his best tool in this match up for several reasons.

- It's the best way to approach
- It's the easiest way to separate Rosalina and Luma
- It flys fast and charges fast
- Great for edge guarding

I recommend using this most of the time in the match up. If Rosalina Gravitational Pull it and you approach her, the player will feel tempted to throw it away because she can't grab or go for her defensive aerials. At this time you go for aerials. fair>nair if she's in the air and chain combo it depending on the percent. Essentially, don't make her breath. You sense that she uses a lot of Gravitational pull and she at high percent, this may sound weird but use side b when she uses it. This forces the player to grab it but if you have a apple in hand, you can hit her within the animation. I don't go for the key that much since it takes a while to charge, it's not as strong as it should be and it can be dangerous if she pulls it from you. The hydrant and nair off stage can clip her from her up b since it has no hitbox. Going back to the orange. The reason why the orange splits Rosalina and Luma is because when the orange hits a a hurtbox, it pops up and has a lingering hitbox giving it enough time to hit any other hitbox that's nearby. Since Luma is levitating at a certain height, the orange slips past Luma , hits Rosalina at her toes and pops up hitting Luma's behind causing them to split. Similar to Foxes Shine in Melee, Pac-Man's Orange is the best way to separate them. Here is a recent video of Me vs a Rosalina.

I need feedback from you guys as well because frankly, people have been saying Abadango vs Dabuz ruined Smash 4 and I think the match up was very young and needed time to understand.

 

[Nu~]

I want to have a in depth discussion about the Rosalina match up. I think it's slightly in Pac-Man's favor. Pac-Man has the tools to be aggressive and make the rosalina player feel uncomfortable.

Oranges is his best tool in this match up for several reasons.

- It's the best way to approach
- It's the easiest way to separate Rosalina and Luma
- It flys fast and charges fast
- Great for edge guarding

I recommend using this most of the time in the match up. If Rosalina Gravitational Pull it and you approach her, the player will feel tempted to throw it away because she can't grab or go for her defensive aerials. At this time you go for aerials. fair>nair if she's in the air and chain combo it depending on the percent. Essentially, don't make her breath. You sense that she uses a lot of Gravitational pull and she at high percent, this may sound weird but use side b when she uses it. This forces the player to grab it but if you have a apple in hand, you can hit her within the animation. I don't go for the key that much since it takes a while to charge, it's not as strong as it should be and it can be dangerous if she pulls it from you. The hydrant and nair off stage can clip her from her up b since it has no hitbox. Going back to the orange. The reason why the orange splits Rosalina and Luma is because when the orange hits a a hurtbox, it pops up and has a lingering hitbox giving it enough time to hit any other hitbox that's nearby. Since Luma is levitating at a certain height, the orange slips past Luma , hits Rosalina at her toes and pops up hitting Luma's behind causing them to split. Similar to Foxes Shine in Melee, Pac-Man's Orange is the best way to separate them. Here is a recent video of Me vs a Rosalina.

I need feedback from you guys as well because frankly, people have been saying Abadango vs Dabuz ruined Smash 4 and I think the match up was very young and needed time to understand.

I've felt the same way lately man.
However, I feel that the melon, apple, and galaxian are some extremely strong fruits in this matchup.

The melon travels slow enough for you to run behind it. If she GP's it, punish her with a dash attack. This will pick up the fallen fruit and punish Rosa. It sends Luma flying as well!

The apple kills rosa early since she's a light floaty.
Galaxian shreds luma and allows us to combo rosa.

Use Side B during her GP to heal yourself. Makes her a lot less liberal about spamming it.

I'm guessing you also know that the hydrant ignores Rosa's uair. You can essentially force her into GP every time you are above her because shielding won't protect her luma.

I suggest playing an aggressive mid range game.

 

[Sinji]

Oh yea, I forgot her GP has a large hitbox so side b is a good option. good point.

I'll try the Melon as well.

 

[Nu~]

Another matchup that I would love to draw more attention to is Fox.
He honestly feels easier than Falcon.
Both fold to trampoline, but Falcon's jab is a problem. We can escape fox's jab combos with trampoline, but falcon ignores that. Fox can't juggle us effectively, but falcon's uair has enough hitstun to get quite a bit of damage before we can hydrant.
Fox also dies easier (well, not counting how we horribly gimp falcon)

Honestly, I see no problems with fox. His approach is nonexistent against us, he can't keep us in disadvantage, and we can kill him a lot earlier than most characters. His rush down just seems ineffective against us the more I fight him.

I feel that he's at a 40:60 disadvantage against us

Also, what do you guys do against a villager bowling ball at the ledge? If we don't time it right, our Trampoline won't clash with it.

 

[Funkermonster]

Anyone here enjoy Pac-Man dittos or have advice during one? Done some in For Glory and in some offline games and it feels weird. I find Dittos in general to be super annoying though.

 

[DrakeRowan]

Anyone here enjoy Pac-Man dittos or have advice during one? Done some in For Glory and in some offline games and it feels weird. I find Dittos in general to be super annoying though.

Welp after having a Pac ditto, I have to say that I recommend trying to grab the opponent's fruit asap. That way, you can spam your own fruit while they can't use there's. Orange spam is also good midrange to keep the opponent from charging their own fruit.

 

[Nu~]

Welp after having a Pac ditto, I have to say that I recommend trying to grab the opponent's fruit asap. That way, you can spam your own fruit while they can't use there's. Orange spam is also good midrange to keep the opponent from charging their own fruit.

LOL
I couldn't agree more.
Trampoline is also a great way to get out of galaxian combos.
Ironically, Pac-Man's recovery falls to his own hydrant if you aren't careful.

 

[BSP]

I'm going to do Sonic testing when I get a chance, but how sure are we about trampoline OoS against Spin Dash? How about it against spin charge? I've seen Pac-Man win sometimes, and then other times I see Sonic win. Let me see if I can clear that up.

@ fromundaman I'm watching your matches against JT and ITT. I don't think they knew the MU well. ITT lets himself fall into a red trampoline, both were Fsmashing hydrants when the proper pressure is to SH Fair or Bair after Pac-Man drops it (run up -> SH fair can punish hydrant drops easily), and neither seemed to be aware that Sonic can run through hydrants on the ground. They chose to hit it at you rather than continue to chase you down while one of your mixups was already spent, and let you charge fruit behind it as if it were an obstacle.

I think they were respecting trampoline a bit much too. Every time you trampoline and don't hit them, they should immediately run at it, touch it, and start a spin dash in your direction. Or run up, spin shot over it, and start a homing attack. Or run up to it, hit it, and start a homing attack. I know Brawlman could consistently punish my missed trampolines, even on Wifi, so I know they can too. Unless you grab the ledge, I'm betting that the only thing Pac-Man can do in time to not get hit is shield. Regardless if we can shield or not, Sonic is all over us again. I'm going to test this when I get a chance. I'm not even sure trampoline is safe on hit at all %, assuming no ledge grab.

That being said, your camping with trampoline near the ledge seemed effective. That may be what we have to do vs. Sonic to keep it manageable, approach him Little Mac style. Except Sonic's aerials and HA aren't a joke, and HA will punishable by Fair only on block if Pac-Man's trampoline is in front of him. And if the trampoline is right in front of us and the ledge right behind, Sonic gets lagless Fairs and Bairs for 2 bounces, something else neither of them were taking advantage of. That will stop us from charging fruit for free, unless we go offstage.

EDIT: Doing some experimentation vs. Sonic

-Scenario, tested on omega boxing ring and omega Wily Castle: You're placing a trampoline at center stage, and Sonic is at one of the edges. If he begins dashing at you the moment (or maybe a bit after...hard to gauge by myself) you set the trampoline, he can run into it and Quick Homing attack Pac-Man before he can shield. Sonic should always be blitzing after you in this MU, so I would consider trampoline unsafe in neutral unless you can grab a ledge.

Similar story with hydrant. Unless you're a full screen apart, Sonic can be on fast enough that the only surefire safe option for us is to shield after placing a hydrant from the ground. We can jump, but that's putting ourselves in a bad position, or try to attack first, which will probably be slower than him SH Fair'ing. Even then, shielding isn't surefire if Sonic runs past the hydrant and pivot Fsmashes it. Nutshell: placing hydrant puts us in a bad spot in neutral too. Be careful with it.

Sonic can run through grounded hydrants and spin dash / charge through them at full speed. Don't place them expecting to contain his running game or spin game. The water can interfere, but he'll probably be on you before it comes out. Ones that know the MU will ignore it and continue to chase you down now that one of your mixups is gone.

I did some testing with Key vs. Sonic's running. Key is barely faster than Sonic at full run. The problem is that if Sonic begins running at the same moment Pac-Man goes for the Key throw, it won't catch him unless he was within Ftilt~Jab range when Pac-Man input the throw (assuming he stays in the dash and doesn't just shield after running a bit). At that range, you've got faster options. So unless Sonic is point blank or has done some major commitment, don't expect to be hitting him with Key often. Furthermore, he has very little reason to shield as opposed to running away in case of a key throw when you've got one ready because of this. If he runs away, you can't charge further, and hydrant doesn't stop anything.

Needless to say, but if Key can barely catch Sonic running, none of the other ones come close to catching him.

I also did more testing on up B OoS vs Spin Dash / Charge. I'll amend my previous post so that misinformation isn't floating about.

Vs, Spin Dash, up B OoS seemed to work if I did it at the right time without Sonic jumping out of the SDR. However, and this is a big however, I don't know how Sonic jumping out of SDR affects this. If he has his Double jump and he baits the up B OoS, he can jump back and then HA our trampoline landing or something.

Vs. Spin Charge, I got inconsistent results. The trampoline would come out, but sometimes Pac-Man would get tapped by Sonic for ~2%, then Sonic bounces up. Other times, Sonic gets interrupted completely and gets hit by the up B. Weird. Once again, I don't know how Sonic jumping out of the SCR changes this.

Fruits vs. Spin Dash got me inconsistent results. Spin Charge has weaker, multiple hits, so it's easier to clank or beat with the fruits.

Fruits that never beat the spin dash for me: Galaxian, Strawberry, Orange
Sometimes beat it, sometimes clanked: Cherry, Apple, Bell, Key
Usually won, but still clanked sometimes: Melon

...yeah, I don't know what to say. Sometimes a fruit would clank when I did an immediate spin dash into roll, but then hit Sonic during a fully charged spin dash roll. I need to do more extensive testing with regards to different charges of the dash, where the fruit is in its travel, and what not.

Regardless of the fruit properties, Sonic's stronger if he runs at us, as shield will work 100% of the time obviously.

Even after the patch, Fruits are still a valid target for HA. Of course, don't throw your fruit out hoping to deter it. He'll steal it instead.

 

[fromundaman]

I'm going to do Sonic testing when I get a chance, but how sure are we about trampoline OoS against Spin Dash? How about it against spin charge? I've seen Pac-Man win sometimes, and then other times I see Sonic win. Let me see if I can clear that up.

@ fromundaman I'm watching your matches against JT and ITT. I don't think they knew the MU well. ITT lets himself fall into a red trampoline, both were Fsmashing hydrants when the proper pressure is to SH Fair or Bair after Pac-Man drops it (run up -> SH fair can punish hydrant drops easily), and neither seemed to be aware that Sonic can run through hydrants on the ground. They chose to hit it at you rather than continue to chase you down while one of your mixups was already spent, and let you charge fruit behind it as if it were an obstacle.

I think they were respecting trampoline a bit much too. Every time you trampoline and don't hit them, they should immediately run at it, touch it, and start a spin dash in your direction. Or run up, spin shot over it, and start a homing attack. Or run up to it, hit it, and start a homing attack. I know Brawlman could consistently punish my missed trampolines, even on Wifi, so I know they can too. Unless you grab the ledge, I'm betting that the only thing Pac-Man can do in time to not get hit is shield. Regardless if we can shield or not, Sonic is all over us again. I'm going to test this when I get a chance. I'm not even sure trampoline is safe on hit at all %, assuming no ledge grab.

That being said, your camping with trampoline near the ledge seemed effective. That may be what we have to do vs. Sonic to keep it manageable, approach him Little Mac style. Except Sonic's aerials and HA aren't a joke, and HA will punishable by Fair only on block if Pac-Man's trampoline is in front of him. And if the trampoline is right in front of us and the ledge right behind, Sonic gets lagless Fairs and Bairs for 2 bounces, something else neither of them were taking advantage of. That will stop us from charging fruit for free, unless we go offstage.

EDIT: Doing some experimentation vs. Sonic

-Scenario, tested on omega boxing ring and omega Wily Castle: You're placing a trampoline at center stage, and Sonic is at one of the edges. If he begins dashing at you the moment (or maybe a bit after...hard to gauge by myself) you set the trampoline, he can run into it and Quick Homing attack Pac-Man before he can shield. Sonic should always be blitzing after you in this MU, so I would consider trampoline unsafe in neutral unless you can grab a ledge.

Similar story with hydrant. Unless you're a full screen apart, Sonic can be on fast enough that the only surefire safe option for us is to shield after placing a hydrant from the ground. We can jump, but that's putting ourselves in a bad position, or try to attack first, which will probably be slower than him SH Fair'ing. Even then, shielding isn't surefire if Sonic runs past the hydrant and pivot Fsmashes it. Nutshell: placing hydrant puts us in a bad spot in neutral too. Be careful with it.

Sonic can run through grounded hydrants and spin dash / charge through them at full speed. Don't place them expecting to contain his running game or spin game. The water can interfere, but he'll probably be on you before it comes out. Ones that know the MU will ignore it and continue to chase you down now that one of your mixups is gone.

I did some testing with Key vs. Sonic's running. Key is barely faster than Sonic at full run. The problem is that if Sonic begins running at the same moment Pac-Man goes for the Key throw, it won't catch him unless he was within Ftilt~Jab range when Pac-Man input the throw (assuming he stays in the dash and doesn't just shield after running a bit). At that range, you've got faster options. So unless Sonic is point blank or has done some major commitment, don't expect to be hitting him with Key often. Furthermore, he has very little reason to shield as opposed to running away in case of a key throw when you've got one ready because of this. If he runs away, you can't charge further, and hydrant doesn't stop anything.

Needless to say, but if Key can barely catch Sonic running, none of the other ones come close to catching him.

When I tried to up B OoS vs. Spin Charge (down B, no hop), I got hit. I don't think we can up B OoS and get around the move's multiple hits. Pay attention to which spin he's using, because up B OoS won't work against charge.

I had to get off before I could fully experiment with spin dash vs trampoline OoS, and I don't know if I'll be able to factor in Sonic jumping when he strikes our shield for that one.

Fruits vs. Spin Dash got me inconsistent results. Spin Charge has weaker, multiple hits, so it's easier to clank or beat with the fruits.

Fruits that never beat the spin dash for me: Galaxian, Strawberry, Orange
Sometimes beat it, sometimes clanked: Cherry, Apple, Bell, Key
Usually won, but still clanked sometimes: Melon

...yeah, I don't know what to say. Sometimes a fruit would clank when I did an immediate spin dash into roll, but then hit Sonic during a fully charged spin dash roll. I need to do more extensive testing with regards to different charges of the dash, where the fruit is in its travel, and what not.

Regardless of the fruit properties, Sonic's stronger if he runs at us, as shield will work 100% of the time obviously.

Even after the patch, Fruits are still a valid target for HA. Of course, don't throw your fruit out hoping to deter it. He'll steal it instead.

Sorry I read this when you posted it but didn't really have a chance to post until now.

I do agree with JT not seeming like he knew the MU, but to be fair, as you can probably tell from game 1, neither do I really, especially against a campy Sonic (All the others I've played have been aggressive). That said ITT claimed to have a Pacman player in his local area, although he also said he had never seen trampoline used as anything other than a recovery tool, so I don't think te skill level of that Pacman was all that great. So yes, MU inexperience on both side could have played a large role in those matches.


I do have a few questions/comments about the things you're saying though:

-

I think they were respecting trampoline a bit much too. Every time you trampoline and don't hit them, they should immediately run at it, touch it, and start a spin dash in your direction. Or run up, spin shot over it, and start a homing attack. Or run up to it, hit it, and start a homing attack. I know Brawlman could consistently punish my missed trampolines, even on Wifi, so I know they can too. Unless you grab the ledge, I'm betting that the only thing Pac-Man can do in time to not get hit is shield. Regardless if we can shield or not, Sonic is all over us again. I'm going to test this when I get a chance. I'm not even sure trampoline is safe on hit at all %, assuming no ledge grab.

Are you fast falling after hitting the trampoline? It seems crazy that Sonic would have time to run to the trampoline and do that slow homing attack before you can land and shield. Hell, I've been able to whiff a trampoline against Sonics on and offline ad have the try HA without needing to move yet still landed and shielded before it hit, so unless there's a way to make it launch faster I am having trouble believing that this is a true punish. When you say Quick Homing attack though, is that a custom move or a technique to make it shoot faster?

If they can hit us with even Spin charge (That is DownB rght?) despite fast falling though then that is very problematic. It means we have to approach a character who beats us at close range and can run circles around us while adopting a hit and run strategy. I don't like that idea... I really don't want to have to play against every Sonic in the super boring way I played against JT...

-Didn't know Sonic could run through hydrants. Guess if my opponent knows it I will have to keep them hidden behind trampolines or throw it at their shield. Good to know, and glad none of my opponents did.

-There is no way that trampoline is punishable on hit over 40-ish%. I know at super low percents it is (which sucks really hard) but at higher %s it does have real hitstun on it.

-Orange can definitely clank with Spin Charge (Side B right? I mean side B) as I've done that one a lot. That said I don't feel clanking gives us much outside of jab range, and in jab range that is super dangerous to try.

-If he HA and we hold up fruit, you said he'll home at the fruit. Can we put away te fruit as soon as he hits it and punish like we can for ZSS' Down B and Bouncing Fish?



Other than that, thank you very much for this information. There was a lot I didn't know in here. The questions I do have are not so much doubting your testing or anything but moreso trying to find ways around these issues. I REALLY don't want to accept that trampoline is so unsafe in neutral and so really hope you are wrong; if you did test it with fast fall and are correct though, please let me know (and ty for the info!) as it is something useful to know and means I need to find a new way to approach this MU.

 

[meleebrawler]

Sonic can press b during homing attack to get it out faster, though it does come at the cost of some power and accuracy.
He also has a custom homing attack called surprise attack that is much faster but weaker.

 

[BSP]

Edit: Unless I'm screwing something up, Pac-Man can't fast fall after using trampoline until he's at about the same height he started from when he launched. As such, it didn't change any of my homing attack results

Are you fast falling after hitting the trampoline? It seems crazy that Sonic would have time to run to the trampoline and do that slow homing attack before you can land and shield. Hell, I've been able to whiff a trampoline against Sonics on and offline ad have the try HA without needing to move yet still landed and shielded before it hit, so unless there's a way to make it launch faster I am having trouble believing that this is a true punish. When you say Quick Homing attack though, is that a custom move or a technique to make it shoot faster?

As meleebrawler said, Sonic can press the special button mid charge to launch a faster HA at the cost of damage and accuracy.

I didn't think of fast falling after the trampoline, believe it or not. Silly me. I was focused on getting as much distance from Sonic as possible that it didn't occur to me. I'll try that out.

Pac-Man can't fast fall after trampoline until he's about level with his initial bounce point. Sonic could still hit me before I could get my shield up.

If they can hit us with even Spin charge (That is DownB rght?) despite fast falling though then that is very problematic. It means we have to approach a character who beats us at close range and can run circles around us while adopting a hit and run strategy. I don't like that idea... I really don't want to have to play against every Sonic in the super boring way I played against JT...

Fast falling doesn't change anything

Maybe you don't have to play lame against Sonic, but I don't see how we can be successful otherwise. His run speed + our grab =

-Didn't know Sonic could run through hydrants. Guess if my opponent knows it I will have to keep them hidden behind trampolines or throw it at their shield. Good to know, and glad none of my opponents did.

Yeah, it's pretty awful. I would suggest not using hydrant in neutral unless Sonic is really far away.

-There is no way that trampoline is punishable on hit over 40-ish%. I know at super low percents it is (which sucks really hard) but at higher %s it does have real hitstun on it.

Good. At lower % though, I think he can spin dash / charge us for it, and quick homing attack (need to test vs. fast fall though).

-Orange can definitely clank with Spin Charge (Side B right? I mean side B) as I've done that one a lot. That said I don't feel clanking gives us much outside of jab range, and in jab range that is super dangerous to try.

Spin Charge is down B. Sonic doesn't hop, and the charging rings from the B presses are a bit more pronounced. It's multi hitting with about 2% per hit, so it should be easier to clank with.

And yes, Orange usually clanks. And yes, as I tried to tell the Sonic board, clanking doesn't accomplish much if we're using fruit to do it. We lose all charge progress, do no damage, and Sonic may even be able to grab some of them after clanking.

Speaking of Fruit vs. Spin Dash, I tried to do more testing on it and I keep getting inconsistent results. That first list I posted of which fruits usually lose and which usually clank or win stood, but I have no idea what determines when a clank will happen or not.

-If he HA and we hold up fruit, you said he'll home at the fruit. Can we put away te fruit as soon as he hits it and punish like we can for ZSS' Down B and Bouncing Fish?

Probably.

Other than that, thank you very much for this information. There was a lot I didn't know in here. The questions I do have are not so much doubting your testing or anything but moreso trying to find ways around these issues. I REALLY don't want to accept that trampoline is so unsafe in neutral and so really hope you are wrong; if you did test it with fast fall and are correct though, please let me know (and ty for the info!) as it is something useful to know and means I need to find a new way to approach this MU.

I'm glad you're pushing back, because I can miss stuff. I'll retest with fast falling, as I was tunnel visioning getting as far away from Sonic as possible.

Regardless of what I find though, Sonic should be making a beeline for us 100% in this MU, using his speed, shield cancels, stopping, spin dash / charge, etc. to make us press buttons. The testing I did was near best case scenario with Sonic standing next to the ledge while we're at center stage, so if he's any closer and you whiff a trampoline, it's going to hurt. He may not have guaranteed punishment (good), but I wouldn't expect much cover.

I am doing this with two controllers, one for each hand, so there's always the chance that one character isn't optimal too. For example, I can't spin shot over the trampoline with Sonic while also trying to make Pac-Man retreat and fast fall.

I also did more testing on up B OoS vs Spin Dash / Charge. I'll amend my previous post so that misinformation isn't floating about.

Vs, Spin Dash, up B OoS seemed to work if I did it at the right time without Sonic jumping out of the SDR. However, and this is a big however, I don't know how Sonic jumping out of SDR affects this. If he has his Double jump and he baits the up B OoS, he can jump back and then HA our trampoline landing or something.

Vs. Spin Charge, I got inconsistent results. The trampoline would always come out, but sometimes Pac-Man would get tapped by Sonic for ~2%, then Sonic bounced up. Other times, Sonic gets interrupted completely and gets hit by the up B. Weird. Once again, I don't know how Sonic jumping out of the SCR changes this.

I can reconfirm that at point blank, Sonic will win the jab war. I'd also be wary of always trying to clank with spin dash / charge, because Sonic can mix you up and hit you for trying to do so by jumping out of the roll right before you need to press a button and quick HA you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I probably sound super negative about this MU, but that's because I just don't see what we can do safely. I want Pac-Man to be able to compete fairly in it, but his kit starts to fall apart against this guy due to his ability to ignore midrange combat and our zoning tools. We found answers for Rosalina, but I don't see what we can do against Sonic outside of be a much better player / read everything he does.

Hydrant provides zero cover once it's on the ground (and Sonic's Uair and Fair will clank with it if timed properly; Bair launches it) and is questionable to throw out in neutral due to how fast Sonic can be next to you. Sonic players need to stop messing around with the hydrant and continue to focus on chasing us down.

Trampoline is extremely iffy on safety vs. Sonic. It's not safe at low %s on hit unless we grab a ledge, and if we don't hit him, he's back on us very quickly. If we try to full ledge camp with it, we give up all stage control and Sonic can abuse it for lagless aerials to pressure us with.

Throwing out hitboxes in an attempt to contain his running leads to you getting shield grabbed or spin dashed, while not doing anything offensive allows him to have his way with you. We could try to contain his running game, but our zoning tools are so easily bypassed by him :\ Everything feels like over-commitment, sheesh.

I don't think the MU is unwinnable for us by any means, but I feel strong Sonic advantage just because of how bad neutral is for us and the ineffectiveness of our usually effective containment options.

EDIT2: Ok, I ran into a Sonic that could beat my Mario on FG and tried a full ledge camp strategy with Trampoline. It's a lot more effective than anything else I've tried vs Sonic. Charging Bonus Fruit will take Homing attacks for Pac-Man, so we're safe from that. The only problem is when Sonic adapts and starts using the trampoline for lagless bairs. I will take that over dealing with his running any day though.

I'm going to keep testing this, but I could lean more so towards slight disadvantage for Pac-Man if this ledge camping remains effective. Camping it with trampoline essentially eliminates Spin Dash / Charge and Sonic's running from neutral. Problem: Sonic gets lagless aerials from trampoline and we give up all stage control, but the latter doesn't matter if Sonic can't get in on us without putting himself in danger.

 

[Nu~]

Edit: Unless I'm screwing something up, Pac-Man can't fast fall after using trampoline until he's at about the same height he started from when he launched. As such, it didn't change any of my homing attack results



As meleebrawler said, Sonic can press the special button mid charge to launch a faster HA at the cost of damage and accuracy.

I didn't think of fast falling after the trampoline, believe it or not. Silly me. I was focused on getting as much distance from Sonic as possible that it didn't occur to me. I'll try that out.

Pac-Man can't fast fall after trampoline until he's about level with his initial bounce point. Sonic could still hit me before I could get my shield up.



Fast falling doesn't change anything

Maybe you don't have to play lame against Sonic, but I don't see how we can be successful otherwise. His run speed + our grab =



Yeah, it's pretty awful. I would suggest not using hydrant in neutral unless Sonic is really far away.



Good. At lower % though, I think he can spin dash / charge us for it, and quick homing attack (need to test vs. fast fall though).



Spin Charge is down B. Sonic doesn't hop, and the charging rings from the B presses are a bit more pronounced. It's multi hitting with about 2% per hit, so it should be easier to clank with.

And yes, Orange usually clanks. And yes, as I tried to tell the Sonic board, clanking doesn't accomplish much if we're using fruit to do it. We lose all charge progress, do no damage, and Sonic may even be able to grab some of them after clanking.

Speaking of Fruit vs. Spin Dash, I tried to do more testing on it and I keep getting inconsistent results. That first list I posted of which fruits usually lose and which usually clank or win stood, but I have no idea what determines when a clank will happen or not.



Probably.



I'm glad you're pushing back, because I can miss stuff. I'll retest with fast falling, as I was tunnel visioning getting as far away from Sonic as possible.

Regardless of what I find though, Sonic should be making a beeline for us 100% in this MU, using his speed, shield cancels, stopping, spin dash / charge, etc. to make us press buttons. The testing I did was near best case scenario with Sonic standing next to the ledge while we're at center stage, so if he's any closer and you whiff a trampoline, it's going to hurt. He may not have guaranteed punishment (good), but I wouldn't expect much cover.

I am doing this with two controllers, one for each hand, so there's always the chance that one character isn't optimal too. For example, I can't spin shot over the trampoline with Sonic while also trying to make Pac-Man retreat and fast fall.

I also did more testing on up B OoS vs Spin Dash / Charge. I'll amend my previous post so that misinformation isn't floating about.

Vs, Spin Dash, up B OoS seemed to work if I did it at the right time without Sonic jumping out of the SDR. However, and this is a big however, I don't know how Sonic jumping out of SDR affects this. If he has his Double jump and he baits the up B OoS, he can jump back and then HA our trampoline landing or something.

Vs. Spin Charge, I got inconsistent results. The trampoline would always come out, but sometimes Pac-Man would get tapped by Sonic for ~2%, then Sonic bounced up. Other times, Sonic gets interrupted completely and gets hit by the up B. Weird. Once again, I don't know how Sonic jumping out of the SCR changes this.

I can reconfirm that at point blank, Sonic will win the jab war. I'd also be wary of always trying to clank with spin dash / charge, because Sonic can mix you up and hit you for trying to do so by jumping out of the roll right before you need to press a button and quick HA you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I probably sound super negative about this MU, but that's because I just don't see what we can do safely. I want Pac-Man to be able to compete fairly in it, but his kit starts to fall apart against this guy due to his ability to ignore midrange combat and our zoning tools. We found answers for Rosalina, but I don't see what we can do against Sonic outside of be a much better player / read everything he does.

Hydrant provides zero cover once it's on the ground (and Sonic's Uair and Fair will clank with it if timed properly; Bair launches it) and is questionable to throw out in neutral due to how fast Sonic can be next to you. Sonic players need to stop messing around with the hydrant and continue to focus on chasing us down.

Trampoline is extremely iffy on safety vs. Sonic. It's not safe at low %s on hit unless we grab a ledge, and if we don't hit him, he's back on us very quickly. If we try to full ledge camp with it, we give up all stage control and Sonic can abuse it for lagless aerials to pressure us with.

Throwing out hitboxes in an attempt to contain his running leads to you getting shield grabbed or spin dashed, while not doing anything offensive allows him to have his way with you. We could try to contain his running game, but our zoning tools are so easily bypassed by him :\ Everything feels like over-commitment, sheesh.

I don't think the MU is unwinnable for us by any means, but I feel strong Sonic advantage just because of how bad neutral is for us and the ineffectiveness of our usually effective containment options.

EDIT2: Ok, I ran into a Sonic that could beat my Mario on FG and tried a full ledge camp strategy with Trampoline. It's a lot more effective than anything else I've tried vs Sonic. Charging Bonus Fruit will take Homing attacks for Pac-Man, so we're safe from that. The only problem is when Sonic adapts and starts using the trampoline for lagless bairs. I will take that over dealing with his running any day though.

I'm going to keep testing this, but I could lean more so towards slight disadvantage for Pac-Man if this ledge camping remains effective. Camping it with trampoline essentially eliminates Spin Dash / Charge and Sonic's running from neutral. Problem: Sonic gets lagless aerials from trampoline and we give up all stage control, but the latter doesn't matter if Sonic can't get in on us without putting himself in danger.

To strengthen your "camp the ledge technique" for sonic, always plant a hydrant on the trampoline and knock it over with a jab. That will prevent him from getting lagless aerials so easily.

Actually, use on fire hydrant. This makes it extremely hard for him to get to us. The perfect fire for our campsite.

Wait a minute...can't we do this in just about every matchup?
It's a gross thought, but our ledge camp game may turn out to be legitimately polarizing.
Hydrant and side B to tank projectiles, trampoline to deter approaches, fast aerials and an invincible utilt to push opponents back after being bounced by the trampoline...

 

[fromundaman]

What do you mean by not being able to fast fall until the initial bounce point?

Do you mean that you can't FF until you reach the ppoint the trampoline was placed?
The FF after trampoline is weird but you should be able to FF shortly after you begin falling.

As for the rest, good to know. As boring as it is, I may need to rely on ledge camping more.

 

[Nu~]

What do you mean by not being able to fast fall until the initial bounce point?

Do you mean that you can't FF until you reach the ppoint the trampoline was placed?
The FF after trampoline is weird but you should be able to FF shortly after you begin falling.

As for the rest, good to know. As boring as it is, I may need to rely on ledge camping more.

It does suck the fun out. I'll only do it against sonics though.
Everyone else is very manageable

 

[fromundaman]

It does suck the fun out. I'll only do it against sonics though.
Everyone else is very manageable

True, but if someone is beating my usual gameplan... Play to win and all that jazz.
Hopefully I'll only need it against Sonic though.

 

[BSP]

What do you mean by not being able to fast fall until the initial bounce point?

Do you mean that you can't FF until you reach the ppoint the trampoline was placed?
The FF after trampoline is weird but you should be able to FF shortly after you begin falling.

As for the rest, good to know. As boring as it is, I may need to rely on ledge camping more.

The first thing you said, sorry for the confusion. If you do grounded trampoline, you can't start FF'ing until you're level with it again for the most part.

To strengthen your "camp the ledge technique" for sonic, always plant a hydrant on the trampoline and knock it over with a jab. That will prevent him from getting lagless aerials so easily.

Actually, use on fire hydrant. This makes it extremely hard for him to get to us. The perfect fire for our campsite.

Wait a minute...can't we do this in just about every matchup?
It's a gross thought, but our ledge camp game may turn out to be legitimately polarizing.
Hydrant and side B to tank projectiles, trampoline to deter approaches, fast aerials and an invincible utilt to push opponents back after being bounced by the trampoline...

Against characters without any projectiles, ledge camping with trampoline is pretty powerful. Pac-Man is the only character that flat out removes options, it's insane.

At higher %, something else we can do if they go for lagless aerials is roll into the trampoline. Of course, this is only advisable at % where your hit from up B will have enough hitstun for you to land safely.

 

[Nu~]

@dragontamer
Can you delete this please? I posted it in the wrong thread

 

[fromundaman]

By the way, I'm sure this has already been said several times somewhere, but we have better alternatives to the trampoline launched hydrant ledge traps.

Jab launching it close to the ledge then placing a trampoline as it bounces accomplishes the same thing except always launches away from the stage and covers all options.

You can see this at 8:37 here (although admittedly I'm not sure I was close enough to the ledge to catch the ledge drop with the hydrant had it happened in this instance)

https://youtu.be/Z9pnGh4olVY?t=8m37s

 

[DrakeRowan]

Jab launching it close to the ledge then placing a trampoline as it bounces accomplishes the same thing except always launches away from the stage and covers all options.

Couldn't an opponent just drop off the ledge, air stall with the second jump, then use their recovery to avoid it?