Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[COLINBG]

Yeah, it shouldn't be your greatest fear in that match. But knowing it can happen and knowing what to do if it does happen is always a plus It's with little things like this that we can get a better understanding of Pac and represent him to his fullest.

Edit: I know it's an effective strategy against characters who have linear or slow recoveries (Mac, Ganon, Shulk, Falcon, Fox, etc). Pacman is not one of them, so might as well not get caught by it.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah, it shouldn't be your greatest fear in that match. But knowing it can happen and knowing what to do if it does happen is always a plus It's with little things like this that we can get a better understanding of Pac and represent him to his fullest.

Agreed. Never rule out your options, especially when you use a character like pacman.

 

[Reaper Talk]

Pac-Man's options make him such a beautiful character

 

[Paper Maribro]

Yes, if we get knocked far away enough, but why wouldn't villager just pursue us offstage instead?
And yes, I did forget about the axe. My mistake. You didn't have to start with such a condescending tone though.

My bad, this is why you don't post when you're stressing about physics assignments

Yes, of course. But I wouldn't have it as my primary fear when I'm offstage vs villager. We know how pocket interacts with PP and trampoline.

@ Paper Maribro
I didn't even say it was a bad edgeguard , I just said it was slow. "Years" is just simple hyperbole. I don't even see the relevance of your anecdotal evidence either. Doesn't change the fact that it's a last resort option, and that it isn't very fast at all.

It's powerful, with a massive hitbox and our recovery is pretty easy to gimp as it is anyway for Villager. Sending down a tree to force us onto a tramp and then pocketing the tramp isn't a bad idea at all. Not that Villager doesn't have infinite edgeguards on us anyway. If we can keep the battle on stage we'll do way better.

 

[Nu~]

So how do you guys handle ZSS?
Maybe it's just the player skill difference, but Nairo's ZSS always gives me trouble.

I always seem to panic and become predictable against him.
Also, what do we do against U air chains into Up B? No character I've used can get out of that consistently and safely

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I'm not sure if it is known but you can pick the key on smashville.

Nair from the stage without ff, throw the key (it will bounce), fair, upb. It is like FD key recovey but Nair instead of Bair.

 

[Firedemon0]

So how do you guys handle ZSS?
Maybe it's just the player skill difference, but Nairo's ZSS always gives me trouble.

I always seem to panic and become predictable against him.
Also, what do we do against U air chains into Up B? No character I've used can get out of that consistently and safely

For Up air chains, its all about that DI. At higher percents DI up, lower percents, away. If you are going to eat an up-B your best chance is to quickly spam behind ZSS, you may be able to get away before killing hit.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Alright, so my friend has recently picked up customs game and watch and I have a question.

What the **** do we do against customs G&W?

 

[Nu~]

Alright, so my friend has recently picked up customs game and watch and I have a question.

What the **** do we do against customs G&W?

Seeing as how G&W has horrible troubles approaching, I don't see how he can even get in on you to use his crazy trampoline and chain hammer customs. He still struggles to land a kill, and he loses hard to our trampoline since his aerial approach options are garbage.
He out ranges us, but our frame data is a lot better than his so I don't see how he'll ever be beating out our attacks.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Trampoline before he does.

 

[Dan]

Man, I love watching Abadango's Pac-Man but the character just seems too gimicky to be taken seriously competitively at this point to me. Like you have to play all of your cards right and have a nearly flawless match just to win or even have a chance of winning.

 

[Nu~]

Man, I love watching Abadango's Pac-Man but the character just seems too gimicky to be taken seriously competitively at this point to me. Like you have to play all of your cards right and have a nearly flawless match just to win or even have a chance of winning.

It appears that you mistake traps for gimmicks. He's a lot more than funny setups you know

 

[Froggy]

I hope I am posting this in the right place if not then please let me know.

Can someone please explain to me how Abadango is able to cancel his bonus fruit into hydrant without air dodging at 1:26 and 1:36 in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBMj4JMFtX8

Its driving me nuts. It doesn't work no matter how I try, what is the trick to this?

 

[Nu~]

I hope I am posting this in the right place if not then please let me know.

Can someone please explain to me how Abadango is able to cancel his bonus fruit into hydrant without air dodging at 1:26 and 1:36 in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBMj4JMFtX8

Its driving me nuts. It doesn't work no matter how I try, what is the trick to this?

You have to quickly press shield, then immediately switch over to down B

 

[Froggy]

You have to quickly press shield, then immediately switch over to down B

Really? Does this only work on the Wii U or on the 3DS as well?

 

[Nu~]

Really? Does this only work on the Wii U or on the 3DS as well?

Both versions.

 

[Froggy]

Wow, I'm shocked. I'm practicing and its really not that hard to do at all. You can even do it on the ground(and with the customs too)

It reminds of learning the turn around(pivot) fruit throw, it takes a lot of practice to get it 100% but its totally doable.

Thanks a ton man, I got a tourney later today. I hope it comes in handy ^_^

 

[fromundaman]

Wow, I'm shocked. I'm practicing and its really not that hard to do at all. You can even do it on the ground(and with the customs too)

It reminds of learning the turn around(pivot) fruit throw, it takes a lot of practice to get it 100% but its totally doable.

Thanks a ton man, I got a tourney later today. I hope it comes in handy ^_^

Glad to see more of us picking up this skill. Fruit cancels are one of our most powerful options IMO.

 

[Nu~]

Glad to see more of us picking up this skill. Fruit cancels are one of our most powerful options IMO.

It's always fun to cancel into a trampoline when your opponent tries to approach you on the ground.

 

[fromundaman]

It's always fun to cancel into a trampoline when your opponent tries to approach you on the ground.

Or cancel into hydrant so that it eats a projectile, allowing you to immediately Bair launch it. I use this against Pika a LOT.

 

[Nu~]

Or cancel into hydrant so that it eats a projectile, allowing you to immediately Bair launch it. I use this against Pika a LOT.

I don't think Pikachu should use thunder jolt against us at all lol. He just gives us free hydrants all match.

We can do the same thing to megaman if he touches the hydrant with any projectile, and Sheik's needle camping

 

[fromundaman]

I don't think Pikachu should use thunder jolt against us at all lol. He just gives us free hydrants all match.

We can do the same thing to megaman if he touches the hydrant with any projectile, and Sheik's needle camping

Agreed 100%. Unfortunately for them, 2 of those characters have lackluster approaches.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I'm not sure if it is known but.... You can fast fall Dair almost instantly. I'm not sure how to use it, but it is really weird.

To perform :

Jump + Dair and fastfall almost same time.

I couldn't do it with cstick only with down + A button.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Or cancel into hydrant so that it eats a projectile, allowing you to immediately Bair launch it. I use this against Pika a LOT.

You can side B Pikachu's thunder jolt and you will restore 2HP everytime he uses it . Don't be predictable!!! You can mixup with hydrant launch as you said

 

[fromundaman]

You can side B Pikachu's thunder jolt and you will restore 2HP everytime he uses it . Don't be predictable!!! You can mixup with hydrant launch as you said

Someone else told me this same thing this week. Thank you guys for reminding me this is a thing I need to do.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I watched a lot of pacman videos and I noticed that everybody used to aproach with fair + nair. I did the same I was punished with a grab or smt after the nair. They just shield and wait.

Now , I'm doing something different : Short hop, fair, fast fall, jump before landing , retreating fast falled nair. You can in, out really safely. It seems that they can't punish me like this way.... and sometimes I perform a footstool to nair while they are on the shield.

 

[fromundaman]

I watched a lot of pacman videos and I noticed that everybody used to aproach with fair + nair. I did the same I was punished with a grab or smt after the nair. They just shield and wait.

Now , I'm doing something different : Short hop, fair, fast fall, jump before landing , retreating fast falled nair. You can in, out really safely. It seems that they can't punish me like this way.... and sometimes I perform a footstool to nair while they are on the shield.

It's a guessing game TBH. I still use Fair>Nair a lot, just mix it up with Fair>DI back>Fruit, Fair>Hydrant, Fair>FF>Trampoline. All of these cover different options, making them all pretty useful, especially since most of this is safe unless they jump OoS to interrupt you in between moves, and that will get them punished if you were doing Fair>Nair.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

It's a guessing game TBH. I still use Fair>Nair a lot, just mix it up with Fair>DI back>Fruit, Fair>Hydrant, Fair>FF>Trampoline. All of these cover different options, making them all pretty useful, especially since most of this is safe unless they jump OoS to interrupt you in between moves, and that will get them punished if you were doing Fair>Nair.

I like this. You are right,I use almost the same options all the time being really predictable. I will try to mix up this options...

 

[Neutricity]

The Mega Mains have learned to Shoryuken the hydrant. I mainly use Key, Apple, and Melon in the Match Up to get around pellets and gears. What do you guys do?

 

[Nu~]

The Mega Mains have learned to Shoryuken the hydrant. I mainly use Key, Apple, and Melon in the Match Up to get around pellets and gears. What do you guys do?

Learned to shoryuken the hydrant? I would love to see them get close enough to do that without eating an fsmash. Or, I can just roll behind them and punish their massive cooldown.

I use the galaxian, bell, key, and melon to eat their lemons. The hydrant also acts as a good wall. If they try to crash bomb it, hit it with a fruit to avoid damage.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Learned to shoryuken the hydrant? I would love to see them get close enough to do that without eating an fsmash. Or, I can just roll behind them and punish their massive cooldown.

I use the galaxian, bell, key, and melon to eat their lemons. The hydrant also acts as a good wall. If they try to crash bomb it, hit it with a fruit to avoid damage.

I'd like to play against you to see how hard a Shoryu on the Hydrant can be punished, but it'd have to be after Saturday morning...
Will you be available ? It would be on whichever support you want

 

[Nu~]

I'd like to play against you to see how hard a Shoryu on the Hydrant can be punished, but it'd have to be after Saturday morning...
Will you be available ? It would be on whichever support you want

Sure man! If I'm free. The best mega man experience I've had so far is styles, so I would love to see another mega man playstyle.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Hey guys, i was hoping to get some tips against Ganon. my brother plays him( I usually win haha) and it can be difficult to approach. i feel cheap if i camp with fruit and trampoline but i cant get close myself without getting spartan kicked.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Hey guys, i was hoping to get some tips against Ganon. my brother plays him( I usually win haha) and it can be difficult to approach. i feel cheap if i camp with fruit and trampoline but i cant get close myself without getting spartan kicked.

Honestly, you shouldn't feel cheap if you space Ganon - remember that you're exploiting his weaknesses of poor mobility and lack of projectiles when you're spacing him.
Remember, Ganon is a character who will try and punish you for your mistakes, and punish you hard he will.
You shouldn't even be having that much trouble with him if you space him well - he's easily one of the better matchups for Pac.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Honestly, you shouldn't feel cheap if you space Ganon - remember that you're exploiting his weaknesses of poor mobility and lack of projectiles when you're spacing him.
Remember, Ganon is a character who will try and punish you for your mistakes, and punish you hard he will.
You shouldn't even be having that much trouble with him if you space him well - he's easily one of the better matchups for Pac.

I officially support cheap play against Ganon, althrough I do play as him sometimes
Still, while he is easily everyone's favorite MU (except for some characters like Lil' Mac maybe), never underestimate him. Pac-Man can zone him out without too much trouble, but if he ever manages to get in your face, you'll get hurt. A lot...
Seriously, I love Ganondorf XD

 

[NimbusSpark]

Still, while he is easily everyone's favorite MU (except for some characters like Lil' Mac maybe), never underestimate him. Pac-Man can zone him out without too much trouble, but if he ever manages to get in your face, you'll get hurt. A lot...

I also must mention that you should absolutely NEVER give Ganon a reason to Ganoncide you. As soon as he grabs you offstage, he'll shred your stock apart before he takes off his own, therefore making you lose the fight if you both are on your final stock. In terms of when he's off-stage, it's recommended to use three different methods against him:
1. Dropping hydrants from above to at least rack up a bit of damage. On a stage with a slanted bottom, such as Battlefield, Final Destination, Palutena's Temple Omega, etc, you could potentially get Ganon to hit that slant area, making him bounce off straight into the bottom blast zone unless by some miracle he techs it. In fact, this actually works with pretty much all characters. Just don't rely on it too much, it doesn't happen too often.
2. Attack Ganon from the ledge via Bonus Fruit. Don't stay too close to the ledge though, he's still be able to Ganoncide you from that area.
3. Simply charge your Bonus Fruit or set up your Hydrants and Trampolines to prepare for him later on.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Both Trampoline and Hydrant screw over of what Ganon still had in mobility.
Camp him out hard, run away.

 

[fromundaman]

I have been playing against a really good Ganon at our weeklies for the last 2 weeks and the number one thing to note against Ganon is to learn to tech Flame Choke.
If you do that you have negated his most reliable combo starting and killing punish option and turned it into a guessing game that is not in Ganon's favor.

Other than that, don't let him get in your head and make sure not to make mistakes (Easier said than done on both counts, trust me I know).

EDIT: DO NOT Roll much against Ganon. He punishes those extremely hard, and NEVER roll into him.

 

[Firedemon0]

General First Observations of the Mewtwo Matchup for Pac-man
(Should be taken lightly and will likely change over time)

Mewtwo's moveset is a hodge podge of moves that are very similar to other characters. Or Sakurai used them for those characters, but whatevas.

He has a slow Mario Cape
He has a slow Lucario Aura Sphere
He has a slow ZSS Dsmash (trend, seriously)
He has a slow Mario Smash attack
He has a faster DK Downtilt
He has a ok poke with Filt
He has Marth like aerial attacks that are not disjointed
His grab is actually pretty legit, similar to melee.

So what does this mean for Pac-man?

Overall? I feel this matchup at the worst is even for Pac-man, but tentatively, I lean it being 55:45 or 60:40 for Pac-man

Pac-man, really is not threatened by Mewtwo's moveset. I feel that while confusion is potent as a reflect, it is very slow in comparison to Cape, it also is not as dangerous offstage because it does not reverse controls/moment. You could say it would be comparable to falco's reflector, but I would disagree, because Falco's has knockback.

Outside of Confusion, m2 does not really have the toolset to really directly influence Pac-man's Zoning. He has good aerials that help keep Pac-man out, but he is much too large and floatly to really do that reliably.

His tilt game is strong, but his Smash attacks are slow and easily avoided. Pac-man is also shorter then M2, making disable a lucky hit at best. (I think we can just crouch avoid it, but I have not yet tested this)

He is susceptible to Retreating SH fairs because of his height. He is also able to be grabbed while on the top of a hydrant (I love doing this, its so funny)

Overall, Mewtwo's strongest method to attack is grab, which Pac-man can, and should, avoid with ease.

 

[NimbusSpark]

Pac-man is also shorter then M2, making disable a lucky hit at best. (I think we can just crouch avoid it, but I have not yet tested this)

If this does in fact work, I must mention on a positive note that Pac-Man can in fact crawl like some other characters. Just wanted to shout that out, I assume not many people talk the fact that he could actually do it.