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Ottawa Bi-weeklies, because illegal gambling is perfectly legal

F

Fogel

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2003
Messages
1,605
Location
Ottawa, ON, Canada
If anyone cares, I didn't play this week mostly due to being woken up so much because of work. Also, Dan was there and he doesn't play Brawl, and I didn't want him to sit around and be bored. Additionally, I was a little soul-crushed (props to anyone other than Ben who gets the reference) due to losing to Alan's bottom tier characters with tier ***** characters earlier that evening.

@Bryant: If you're wondering where it went, you left your cell charger here.

Swiss Program stuff

Here are the basics of the different parts of the program I'd want help with:

- Two main GUI screens. The first screen will be similar to the main one in Tio where you add/delete players. The second would be the main Swiss round screen which displays the matches, and where you enter results. There are a couple of other ones that we will need (displaying results for individual players, and for the tournament as a whole) but these shouldn't take as long to do as the main two.

I have them drawn out on paper, and all of it can be done with basic Java GUI components, so it shouldn't be too tricky. We can take a look at this on Friday and if people have some ideas on it, we can take them into account and change them a bit if I've missed something. The main work here would be creating these components and laying them out on the screen (there are Java layout objects that can be used for this).

- XML file saving/loading. I was thinking that we might as well use a standard to save and load the tournament data. Super-motivated people might even be able to use the tournament output XML to do other stuff in other programs (player statistics, head-to-head matchups for two players, etc.). XML is good to learn because it's used in a lot of places (ie: looks good on a resume!).

If anyone is interested in this part, I can help out as I've done XML parsing for a couple of projects.

- Swiss tournament algorithms. Determining how people are paired up in a given round, calculating placements, and things like that. Additionally, how to get all the necessary data from the other system components (getting values from the GUI, getting results and previous matchups from the player data, etc.). I need to work a bit more on this part, as it's the least-developed out of these subsystems. Most of it is only in my head ATM.

Work on these sections can be split up if more than three people end up working on this. For the GUI, one person could work on each main screen; for the XML files, one could work on saving, the other on loading, though they'd have to work together to make sure the same data is being saved and loaded :)

Ben/Orlando: What are the chances of you guys being able to make it next week? Rather than start coding the Swiss program with what I have now, I was thinking of really hammering out the design more this week. Kevin (aka Kran) didn't post here, but he's back from school now and he's interested in helping out with this as well.

One thing I need to know before I proceed is, what level of detail would you guys want before I proceed? At the moment, I know what the main components are, but I haven't gotten to the stage where I have individual classes and methods all fleshed out yet. Would you guys prefer to design your own classes, methods, etc. for whichever parts you'd work on, or do you want me to come up with all the individual classes and methods that I think we'd need? I can do that, but if you aren't interested in just being told, "Here are the classes and methods, implement them!" I can understand that. Going that far could be kind of control freak-ish, but let me know.
 
Linkshot

Linkshot

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
5,236
Location
Hermit in the Highrise
If I was familiar with real programming languages, I'd help out.

P.S.: Ness has Olimar syndrome. He's godly on the stage, but once you knock him off, it's kinda scary for the Ness player.
 
K

Krantastic

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
17
I think I would have an easier time if I were told "Here are the classes and methods, implement them!". If that's not done though, since the work hasn't been divided up yet or anything, I'll try to cope and ask for direction if I get stuck.
 
Divine_Haze

Divine_Haze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
215
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Alright, shoutouts:

Bryant: No worries on the suicides bro, it happens. Just remember, last time you had to carry me. I was awful :D Keep tearing it up with MK, we'll win doubles sometime soon :)

Team We stole your bike!: Nice set, pit/mk is a scary combo. Keep up the awesome work, looking forward to playing you two in doubles again.

Derek: Ike bair = :( haha good set

Remilia: Close matches! good job, and congrats on second? we need a rematch sometime soon

Cam: Thanks for hosting, as always :)

Randy: Bowser/CF too good! :p

Team Flying Marshmellows: Good set, you two have pretty good chemistry. Looking forward to playing you again in doubles.

..I think that's all. Sorry if I missed someone :S
 
F

Fogel

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2003
Messages
1,605
Location
Ottawa, ON, Canada
Krantastic said:
I think I would have an easier time if I were told "Here are the classes and methods, implement them!". If that's not done though, since the work hasn't been divided up yet or anything, I'll try to cope and ask for direction if I get stuck.
Click to expand...
I can do this if you know what part you want to work on. If you're looking for something straightforward, I'd suggest working on the GUI side (assuming you don't mind doing GUI code). The Java GUI classes are pretty straightforward to use, there is lots of documentation on them, and it will be pretty simple to debug (you will be able to tell right away if your buttons/menus don't do what they're supposed to :) ).

Divine_Haze said:
Haha, actually, that was me :) Woops, uhhh, when would be a good time for me to pick it up?
Click to expand...
Today/tomorrow are bad due to my stupid midnight-8am shift; it is going to mess up my schedule big time. Thursday is probably bad because I might be out then. Any other weekdays during the evening are fine if you have time to drop by. If your phone can hold out that long, I suggest waiting until Friday, that way you can get your charger and play smash with us!
 
K

Krantastic

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
17
Fogel said:
I can do this if you know what part you want to work on. If you're looking for something straightforward, I'd suggest working on the GUI side (assuming you don't mind doing GUI code). The Java GUI classes are pretty straightforward to use, there is lots of documentation on them, and it will be pretty simple to debug (you will be able to tell right away if your buttons/menus don't do what they're supposed to :) ).
Click to expand...
That sounds good, I think I would prefer to work with the GUIs. I worked with Java GUI classes in grade 12 and I'm unfamiliar with XML. I actually have no idea how idea how Swiss tournaments work either, SAUS informed me it's a type of cheese. I guess I'll find that out.
 
Divine_Haze

Divine_Haze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
215
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Fogel said:
Today/tomorrow are bad due to my stupid midnight-8am shift; it is going to mess up my schedule big time. Thursday is probably bad because I might be out then. Any other weekdays during the evening are fine if you have time to drop by. If your phone can hold out that long, I suggest waiting until Friday, that way you can get your charger and play smash with us!
Click to expand...
Haha, well to be honest, I think I am going on a road trip this week at some point, and unfortunately, my phone is now dead :D . Not sure when exactly I am/may be going, but if I'm around Ottawa I'll post on here and see when is good for you
 
B

buenob

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
1,263
I'll be there on the first, but I work until 7pm on the 8th, so if things can wait until I get there, 7:30 (and i'll need a few minutes to cool-down/change) then I'm in, if not, then only singles for me ont he 8th... please pre-sign me up now, there's no chance I'm not going to be there :)

good to see andrew showed and also good to see others making it out, can't wait to see everyone...

I know xml pretty well... it's just tags, but I'm very versed in writing xml parsers and writing the files/objects ... it's not hard, but I do it a lot

anyways, funerals suck, I'll be back, and I cant wait to play you guys (especially the new MK)
 
S

SoLn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
91
Fogel said:
If anyone cares, I didn't play this week mostly due to being woken up so much because of work. Also, Dan was there and he doesn't play Brawl, and I didn't want him to sit around and be bored. Additionally, I was a little soul-crushed (props to anyone other than Ben who gets the reference) due to losing to Alan's bottom tier characters with tier ***** characters earlier that evening.

@Bryant: If you're wondering where it went, you left your cell charger here.

Swiss Program stuff

Here are the basics of the different parts of the program I'd want help with:

- Two main GUI screens. The first screen will be similar to the main one in Tio where you add/delete players. The second would be the main Swiss round screen which displays the matches, and where you enter results. There are a couple of other ones that we will need (displaying results for individual players, and for the tournament as a whole) but these shouldn't take as long to do as the main two.

I have them drawn out on paper, and all of it can be done with basic Java GUI components, so it shouldn't be too tricky. We can take a look at this on Friday and if people have some ideas on it, we can take them into account and change them a bit if I've missed something. The main work here would be creating these components and laying them out on the screen (there are Java layout objects that can be used for this).

- XML file saving/loading. I was thinking that we might as well use a standard to save and load the tournament data. Super-motivated people might even be able to use the tournament output XML to do other stuff in other programs (player statistics, head-to-head matchups for two players, etc.). XML is good to learn because it's used in a lot of places (ie: looks good on a resume!).

If anyone is interested in this part, I can help out as I've done XML parsing for a couple of projects.

- Swiss tournament algorithms. Determining how people are paired up in a given round, calculating placements, and things like that. Additionally, how to get all the necessary data from the other system components (getting values from the GUI, getting results and previous matchups from the player data, etc.). I need to work a bit more on this part, as it's the least-developed out of these subsystems. Most of it is only in my head ATM.

Work on these sections can be split up if more than three people end up working on this. For the GUI, one person could work on each main screen; for the XML files, one could work on saving, the other on loading, though they'd have to work together to make sure the same data is being saved and loaded :)

Ben/Orlando: What are the chances of you guys being able to make it next week? Rather than start coding the Swiss program with what I have now, I was thinking of really hammering out the design more this week. Kevin (aka Kran) didn't post here, but he's back from school now and he's interested in helping out with this as well.

One thing I need to know before I proceed is, what level of detail would you guys want before I proceed? At the moment, I know what the main components are, but I haven't gotten to the stage where I have individual classes and methods all fleshed out yet. Would you guys prefer to design your own classes, methods, etc. for whichever parts you'd work on, or do you want me to come up with all the individual classes and methods that I think we'd need? I can do that, but if you aren't interested in just being told, "Here are the classes and methods, implement them!" I can understand that. Going that far could be kind of control freak-ish, but let me know.
Click to expand...
For detail id say some basic classes would suffice. Just to understand what each component is supposed to do.

I would combine the loading and saving into one job since they are almost the reverse of each other.


Im pretty much okay with any part, although Ive never used xml extensively but I wouldnt mind learning it. I will most likely be able to make it this week for atleast an hour or two so we can look over the design and discuss any ideas. Probably for some smash as well :).
 
F

Fogel

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2003
Messages
1,605
Location
Ottawa, ON, Canada
Krantastic said:
That sounds good, I think I would prefer to work with the GUIs. I worked with Java GUI classes in grade 12 and I'm unfamiliar with XML. I actually have no idea how idea how Swiss tournaments work either, SAUS informed me it's a type of cheese. I guess I'll find that out.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. It looks like we have a couple of volunteers for XML anyways, and to be honest I wanted to work on the algorithm stuff myself :) This works out nicely.

buenob said:
I know xml pretty well... it's just tags, but I'm very versed in writing xml parsers and writing the files/objects ... it's not hard, but I do it a lot

anyways, funerals suck, I'll be back, and I cant wait to play you guys (especially the new MK)
Click to expand...
*combines with reply to Orlando*

SoLn said:
For detail id say some basic classes would suffice. Just to understand what each component is supposed to do.

I would combine the loading and saving into one job since they are almost the reverse of each other.


Im pretty much okay with any part, although Ive never used xml extensively but I wouldnt mind learning it. I will most likely be able to make it this week for atleast an hour or two so we can look over the design and discuss any ideas. Probably for some smash as well :).
Click to expand...
Yeah, I thought about these things over the weekend and I think certain classes are necessary to have in advance. I won't go so far as to decide how people split up their own sections, though.

Also, you are right about saving/loading being one job; in retrospect, it would be pretty dumb to split them up. I think only one person working on the XML parsing is best for now. You and Ben can have an XML match next smashfest :p Winner gets to work on it! Or, the loser gets stuck working on it if you want to be a pessimist.

We can talk about all of this on Friday and see if we can split this up evenly between four people.
 
joblin

joblin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
101
Location
Ottawa, Canada
CHAOSvsORDER said:
Everyone knows that Shedinja is the coolest bug type which in turn makes him the coolest pokemon ever ever EVER.
Click to expand...
My Magikarp's Splash Attack says otherwise n00b. Plus Shedinja isn't part of the "real pokémon" (original 151). I'd let it pass if it was part of the 251 pokémon but it isn't so you suck.
 
I

IvanEva

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
557
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Jobin's right. There's only Pokemon 1 and 2, all the rest are just, umm, side-quests. It takes more than Prof. Oak to make the games all part of the same series. Ah, the good old days of playing Silver in chemistry class...

On topic: We should add Lylat and Pokémon stadium 1 to the starter lists. All in favor/opposed?
 
F

Fogel

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2003
Messages
1,605
Location
Ottawa, ON, Canada
IvanEva said:
Jobin's right. There's only Pokemon 1 and 2, all the rest are just, umm, side-quests. It takes more than Prof. Oak to make the games all part of the same series. Ah, the good old days of playing Silver in chemistry class...

On topic: We should add Lylat and Pokémon stadium 1 to the starter lists. All in favor/opposed?
Click to expand...
I don't mind this personally...anyone remember why Lylat was moved to CP in the first place? The edges? The stage tilting?
 
B

buenob

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Messages
1,263
mostly levels like lylat already existed in the starter set, and it specifically gave a disadvantage to any character that has a hard time grabbing the ledge... I wouldn't mind lylat, but I really think ps1 isn't neutral... t he changes promote excessive camping until it switches back, which I don't think has any place in a level
 
joblin

joblin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
101
Location
Ottawa, Canada
Because Lylat is hurtful towards my feelings. All I want to do it grab it's beautiful ledges and it moves away in a cold emotionless manner.
 
arsenic41

arsenic41

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
807
Pokemon stadium broke into my house and beat my mom and kicked to a corner when I was a kid...I will never forgive Pokemon stadium for his actions.

On a more serious note: Pokemon stadium broke into my house and beat my mom and kicked to a corner when I was a kid...I will never forgive Pokemon stadium for his actions.
 
I

IvanEva

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
557
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Lucas has a much harder time grabbing the edge on Yoshi's than on Lylat. Bowser has a harder time on FD than on Lylat (as he has a bit of leeway with Lylat but with FD the lip is instant death for him). Lylat is totally starter material (it's just unpopular because Slippy is driving the thing).

I haven't seen any 'excessive' camping in PS1 yet. When the cliff/tree/construction thingy are up they change things up a bit but in a way that creates opportunity for creative problem solving as well as risk/reward decisions. All of the 'camping' spots are potential wall combo spots so it's always a risk. The level does not give anybody any overwhelming advantage/disadvantage (except possibly Dedede, but that ****tart gets crazy advantages on almost every level, especially Delphino and Castle Siege.).

Randy: "and kicked to a corner"? Kicked your mother to a corner? Your grammar makes baby Jesus cry.

Irrelevant note: Les Miserables (the musical) is the greatest achievement in human history.
 
PND

PND

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,754
Location
Back in the 613
Okay, I have to have a MM with Harold, MK vs whoever he picks, on PS1. I *WILL* out camp him, and show him things about that level that will prove it's not starter.

Hint: MK can attack *through* the level. He can just hover under the lip uairing. . . safe. Unless the opponent has explosives (or a few other moves) nothing can touch him. If you can try and edge grab him when he runs low on jumps MK can either just shuttle loop or whorenado back on to the stage. Then he can run to the other side, and surprise, more planking.

That's only one of the things I've seen about that level, I don't want to spoil my strategy too much.
 
I

IvanEva

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
557
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
This is just theorycraft for me now but couldn't he do that in FD as well then? Then again, what level can't he just drop down and teleport up constantly? PK Thunder will teach all silly Metaknights the error of their camping ways (which then results in them not camping and thus slicing Lucas up...).
 
Remilia Scarlet

Remilia Scarlet

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
70
Okay, I have to have a MM with Harold, MK vs whoever he picks, on PS1. I *WILL* out camp him, and show him things about that level that will prove it's not starter.
Click to expand...
You are challenging the wrong person to an out-camping MM. Sorry Mike, my $'s on Harold. :>
 
F

Fogel

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2003
Messages
1,605
Location
Ottawa, ON, Canada
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