Ottawa Bi-weeklies, because illegal gambling is perfectly legal

[joblin]

I think that if we do the 4 rounds and still have time afterwards, we could do doubles. I do enjoy a good doubles tourney.

 

[Linkshot]

If we do 4 and have more time, I think we should have more rounds, as stated before.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

gonna be a bit late

EDIT: won't make it till at least 7. If that's too alte, then count me out, sorry

 

[joblin]

I am very interested in the results of the Swiss Biweekly and Doubles. I only know the placements of first and myself.

I will definitely post more about the Swiss style and give feedback on the whole ordeal, right now I must get to a birthday party and then the capoeira event.

 

[Fogel]

Biweekly #20: Going Swiss - Results

Singles

1. CvO
2. Orlando
3. Linkshot
4. HiDef
5. IvanEva
6. SAUS
7. Moses
8. Fogel
9. Carlos
10. Arsenic
11. Knuckles
12. Jazriel
13. Joblin
14. Jan

Doubles

Doubles were done standard double-eliminiation style. I am doing these from memory...feel free to correct any mistakes!

1. SAUSenic (SAUS + Arsenic) <--- Huge sandbaggers, messed up losers Ally-style
2. HiDef + Knuckles <--- sorry, I forgot the team name
3. aaaaaawwwwwwwwwww Yyyyeeeaaaahhhh!!!! (CvO + Joblin)
4. NeverGonnaGiveYouUp (Orlando + Fogel)
5. Moses Parts The Red Sea (Moses + Carlos)



From an organization point of view, things went very smoothly. I was expecting each round to take about an hour, but we somehow finished all four rounds in just over 2 hours, which left time for doubles. I was pretty happy with how things went from this perspective. It would have been possible to do more rounds afterwards, but I thought it would be good to do doubles, since there was time for it (I'm one of those people who likes teams :D).

Now, for those who attended, I would like your opinion on the Swiss format vs. the usual double elimination. What was good/bad? Should we do this in future weeks? Should we have more than 4 rounds, or keep it at 4 rounds and do teams? I got some feedback in person, but I think discussing here with everyone would be better. There are definitely good points and bad points to this system compared to double elimination.

 

[Linkshot]

Well, I placed better XDD

More rounds would definitely be good. I think this definitely gives more practice than double elimination.

Perhaps we should set this up free on SmashFests as our practice? If people agree to it that SmashFest, that is. Our biweeklies will be standard double elim for tourney practice, still.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Sign me up for this please. This is gonna be my first tournament so yea.

 

[Linkshot]

Next Friday is just going to be practice, but you're more than welcome to come.

I see you posted in the main thread. Good boy This is generally reserved for when we have a tournament coming in the week. They're small-scale, generally around 14 to 16 people. That's not to say we don't have competition, though!

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Alright so this gonna be at Fogel's house right? If it is tell me how to get there. Thanks!

 

[Linkshot]

It will be there, but you have to ask him for directions because he prefers to be the one to give them out.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Oh well how do I reach Fogel about getting there?

 

[Linkshot]

A private message via the boards should work.

 

[CHAOSvsORDER]

Swiss format was cool. I think we could have done at least one more round with time for dbls.

EDIT:

Shoutouts:

Orlando-That was a nice end, though I would have preferred more matches and I think you would too. If the CGs are bugging you, lylat or pen island are the place to go.

Harold-You panicked, but I guess me getting pwnt on my own stage made you too certain you were going to win.

Carlos-You're pretty good! I doubt you're reading this anyways, but you should come out more often.

Cam-My toughest match. I had no idea how to beat you. I won simply because you messed up a few times on the last stock. I want to get in more maches next smashfest so I can figure out your Falco =P

Joblin-Sorry for getting wrecked near the end there. I need to work on my anti zelda tactics. Next time we got it for sure.

All in all, I liked the swiss. More rounds are definately needed imo though. I kind of wanted to play Bryant and Alan more that anyone though. I have yet to figure out Bryant and Alan I don't play enough. Though I play Harold and Orlando more than anyone else, playing Carlos was cool and Cam has gotten tough.

 

[Linkshot]

The main problem was that there weren't really enough for another round. You were the only 4-0.

 

[Fogel]

Doing more than 4 rounds in the future is definitely doable, but the logistics will become tougher. If there were 5 rounds, then the 4-0 has to fight a 3-1, and if the 4-0 loses then we'd have more than one 4-1 player. To be honest, I haven't done the math beyond that point, but things get messier. It's definitely doable, but deciding first place wouldn't be as straightforward as it was with four rounds.

 

[IvanEva]

First, shoutouts:

Ariel: I didn't play to win this time. I'm realizing that now. Next time... well, forecasts are calling for a lot of tornadoes...

Cameron: Haha, I got out-camped by Sheik? What the duce!? You may not be #th worst in Ottawa for much longer it seems. Your ROB also surprised me when he was dismantling me. I should have gone Lucas but you put the fear of needles in me.

Bryant: I'm flattered that my Lucas can still bring about a bit of fear in someone. Your Sheik was pretty good though. I'm seeing some Sheik revival in Ottawa...

Jobin: Yes, Marth! Good choice. See if you can copy Orlando's crazy spikes with him.


Second, my thoughts on the Swiss-style in point form:

PRO - Much more streamlined, organized, and efficient.

CON - Difficult to quickly judge progress.

PRO - More official matches for the weaker players = more experience.

CON - Many of those official matches are a farce of sorts since some of them can't lead to anything if you're already behind. There's no 'second chance' that double elimination provides.

PRO/CON - Wins/loses count much more since (from what I saw - I could be totally wrong) there's nothing you can do when you're behind.

PRO - Long, boring Grand Finals matches are happily shortened

CON - Grand Finals takes place while others are still playing, totally destroying their 'Grandness'.

Overall, I found it an interesting experience with a few holes but also a few improvements. I think the experiment isn't over yet. We'll need to do it again so we can get a better feel for it.

 

[joblin]

CON - Grand Finals takes place while others are still playing, totally destroying their 'Grandness'.

What we can do is have the two with no loses on the 4th round to wait will everyone is done the final round so we can watch. It'll add something like 10-15 mins onto the tourney but seeing how it's already so much quicker than double elim it could work.

I believe that the Swiss method was a success and that it should continue.

Pros:
-more games for everyone
-better practice for lower skilled players
-quick and organized
-everyone will have a win-lose ratio
-more accurate for PR
-still room for doubles tourney!
-lose once and you cannot get first

Cons:
-lose once and you cannot get first
-start fighting the same people near the final rounds every swiss week.

What I think we should do with the biweekly situation is have it alternating between Swiss and Double Elimination. This way 1 week we can improve on the Swiss method and still have a fair amount of plays in for everyone, and the next biweekly week we can have the double elim and still have the tourney experience and practice for future big events.

P.S. I really have to get the timing down with Marth against small chars... Lucas and Kirby are too small!

 

[Fogel]

Cameron: Haha, I got out-camped by Sheik? What the duce!? You may not be #th worst in Ottawa for much longer it seems. Your ROB also surprised me when he was dismantling me. I should have gone Lucas but you put the fear of needles in me.



Second, my thoughts on the Swiss-style in point form:

PRO - Much more streamlined, organized, and efficient.

CON - Difficult to quickly judge progress.

PRO - More official matches for the weaker players = more experience.

CON - Many of those official matches are a farce of sorts since some of them can't lead to anything if you're already behind. There's no 'second chance' that double elimination provides.

PRO/CON - Wins/loses count much more since (from what I saw - I could be totally wrong) there's nothing you can do when you're behind.

PRO - Long, boring Grand Finals matches are happily shortened

CON - Grand Finals takes place while others are still playing, totally destroying their 'Grandness'.

Overall, I found it an interesting experience with a few holes but also a few improvements. I think the experiment isn't over yet. We'll need to do it again so we can get a better feel for it.

I thought I'd try Sheik after a few experiments at FFYF2 Thanks for the compliments!

We already discussed in person, but I'll offer my take on some of the cons you've listed as a counterpoint:

"Difficult to quickly judge progress." - As far as determining your exact placement, yes, this is true because tiebreaks have to be calculated. Knowing where you are in general isn't hard though, because you know how many match wins you have.

"Many of those official matches are a farce of sorts since some of them can't lead to anything if you're already behind. There's no 'second chance' that double elimination provides." - True, if you're behind by enough there isn't even a chance of placing in the money. I say that the PR/more tournament match experience should be motivation enough for most people, though for others it can be hard when there isn't money on the line anymore.

"Grand Finals takes place while others are still playing, totally destroying their 'Grandness'." - I agree with this one; the 'prestige' of playing in Winners'/Losers'/Grand Finals is lost in this format. You don't get to practice Best of 5 sets with this format either, which can be a drawback for those who want experience playing in those sets. Having played in a couple myself, Bo5 is very different from Bo3; more counterpicks from both sides, and you have to be prepared to switch characters if you feel you've been figured out. Hmm; I guess I just added another CON :/

What we can do is have the two with no loses on the 4th round to wait will everyone is done the final round so we can watch. It'll add something like 10-15 mins onto the tourney but seeing how it's already so much quicker than double elim it could work.

I believe that the Swiss method was a success and that it should continue.

Pros:
-more games for everyone
-better practice for lower skilled players
-quick and organized
-everyone will have a win-lose ratio
-more accurate for PR
-still room for doubles tourney!
-lose once and you cannot get first

Cons:
-lose once and you cannot get first
-start fighting the same people near the final rounds every swiss week.

What I think we should do with the biweekly situation is have it alternating between Swiss and Double Elimination. This way 1 week we can improve on the Swiss method and still have a fair amount of plays in for everyone, and the next biweekly week we can have the double elim and still have the tourney experience and practice for future big events.

P.S. I really have to get the timing down with Marth against small chars... Lucas and Kirby are too small!

Splitting up the formats is a good idea too, depending on what everyone else wants. We should probably have a vote on this once there's a bit more feedback.

 

[Linkshot]

Well, Joblin, I was saying we could do Free Swiss Tourneys on Smashfest dates, because they're great practice without money on the line.

 

[joblin]

A free Swiss could work and build some experience but I'd still like to have some Smashfests as Smashfests. So either have a free Swiss or a normal Swiss on every other Biweekly. Votes!

 

[buenob]

lol, seriously, it's a completely different experience when you don't play the min# of games... it's still possible to come in first when you lose, and calculating tie breakers takes about 1 minute per person, so assuming EVERYONE is involved in a tie, it will only take 16 minutes to figure out the exact placings of everyone

I think that the swiss system actually gives you way more accurate results than a double-elim bracket, but again, you have to play more than the min# of games...

anyways, don't judge it until you've tried it with tie breakers counting and more matches and yeah, it does take a long time lol

edit- after the swiss, it would be easy to take the #1 and #2 ranked players and have them do a bo5 for first/2nd, with maybe the player in first able to pick a counterpick level in the first match (bonus for being first?)... this would basically mean the swiss system is like a big pool for a 2 man bracket... and then 3rd gets their money back lol

 

[Linkshot]

To throw 3rd into that, 3rd and 2nd could have a Bo5 first (Loser's Finals, basically), and the winner of that goes into "Grand Finals" (Bo5 against 1st). If you want to emulate Winner's Finals, 1st and 2nd can do a Bo5 before 3rd and 2nd (loser being second, obv).

 

[joblin]

Best of 5 takes a really long time and if you're having it done twice its just going to be the same as double elimination and we might not have time for doubles. Whether you're 1st, 2nd or last I think everyone should have an equal amount of games. The biggest reason why we don't have Bo5 is it will really screw up the win-lose ratio. No special treatment. Everyone is equal. You're playing to win money not more games.

 

[Fogel]

@Ben: I'm not against doing more than the minimum number of rounds for Swiss. I did only four this time because it was an experiment, and I wanted to see how it went. I honestly did not check the time until we were at the last round, realizing that it actually went quite quickly. Rather than continue, I figured doing doubles would be better. Also, people seemed to be eager to leave this week (I think this is the first Biweekly in a while which ended before 1am ). In future weeks, if people want to continue Swiss, we can run more rounds.

@Alan: I'm in favour of keeping every second week as a non-tournament week. I sometimes want to play other games, ****-block people in CokBlokus, talk with people for a while about stuff, practice specific matchups against a person for a really long time, etc. I think I'm not the only one who would like to keep those weeks as-is (though, speak up if I'm in the minority...). Also, running some kind of tournament, be it Swiss or Double Elim, every week would be a hassle

 

[Linkshot]

True. I guess I just considered the non-tournament weeks as practice.

 

[joblin]

Goofing around, I mean practice, is always a good thing. Plus playing other games with the Smash Community is always a fun thing too. Get too serious and we're one step closer to the SFIV Scene.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Sign me up for this i'll show up, I want a spot for this tournament. Thanks!

 

[Linkshot]

Afro Boy, this week is a friendly get-together. You can come if you want, just follow the time guidelines. There's really no required registration (yet).

 

[LivewiresXe]

Yeah, I think this is a Smashfest week. But hey, at least he seems eager, which is good.

 

[Linkshot]

Pit seems to be popular this month. I picked up Pit, Convict showed up, now Afro Boy.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Yeah, I think this is a Smashfest week. But hey, at least he seems eager, which is good.

I can't help it. I have no good competition where i'm at and I need to face some good players.

 

[Linkshot]

If you're near Riverside, I desperately need practice on Non-Fridays :O

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Yea alright, I need practice too.

 

[Linkshot]

Oh, whoa, really? Heh, I'm at the Alta Vista end.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Ok. So are you gonna be at the get-together? If you are then well set this up there.

 

[LivewiresXe]

No good competition around you, Afro? Hell, I'm in K-Ville, so I don't have anyone within 20 mins unless someone like, appears from Merrickville or something.

But it's all good, the fun's worth the trip.

 

[Linkshot]

I try to make it every week! And I have so far.

 

[Divine_Haze]

Glad to see so much enthusiasm, Afro. However, I just have one thing to say:

Spoiler

I hate PIT!!!!!

xD

 

[LivewiresXe]

Lol, well I dunno. Cartwheeling monkeys can be a barrel-full of trouble. See what I did there?

 

[Remilia Scarlet]

Hi Afro!

Welcome to the community <3