Online Brawl Community Doubles #7 - August 8th - Registration is day of event

[bigman40]

Yeah, more people for the community!

 

[Albiel]

Regretfully I didn't get around to checking this earlier. Still, if possible, come February 22 I will enter the contest. It does seem like a good idea.

 

[bigman40]

Register for the community here: http://chaossmashers.eamped.com/profile.php?mode=register. Make sure you put in your location and a way to contact you too.

 

[AltF4]

So it would appear that the Dojo has confirmed that online matches will be Host-Based.

That means that whoever has host will have a significant advantage in a match, especially if they're far away. How do you intend to account for this?

You could give the loser host. Kind of like a form of counter picking.

 

[worldjem7]

This is just a little thing I noticed that I think should be looked at.

So what's with that little tail with the 240? and then 280 is right next to it.

Clarification please?

 

[darkNES386]

AltF4Warrior... I apologize for not having the proper vocabulary... but when playing a game like mario striker with a friend... does someone actually host the match where it puts them at an advantage with latency?

Whether or not this is the case... matches are probably going to be scheduled so that an equal amount of games are being created and joined by everyone. When the elimination bracket rounds start... if it becomes a serious problem I guess we could make it "equal" by having a director from a "neutral position" host the match?.... please share any ideas you have and maybe a little more insight into your concern Altf4Warrior. You are bringing up this "hosting" of brawl matches in regards to lag problems, correct?

here's the scheduling sample... HERE

I emailed nintendos customer service earlier today... they just got back to me:

From: MiiTournDirector@hotmail.com
Posted At: 11:02:07.000 12/05/2007
Posted To: Nintendo <nintendo@noa.nintendo.com>
Subject: Webform: Other Non-Product Related > Other

Online Connection Speeds - Does it matter who is hosting or creating a game?With titles such as Mario Strikers Charged and the upcoming Super Smash Brothers: Brawl I would like to know if it makes a difference in speed connection for who creates the game.


Message(#6851-000639-1024\6391024)

Hello and thank you for contacting Nintendo, The online connection speed is not dependent on who creates a match in Mario Strikers Charged, it is dependent on what your and your opponent(s) connection speeds are.

If you have questions about the Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection, or are encountering errors while connecting online, please consult the following website:

http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wii/en_na/online.jsp

Sincerely, Nintendo of America Inc.
T.J. Geise

Nintendo's home page: http://www.nintendo.com/
Power Line (Automated Product Info): (425) 885-7529

 

[tutter]

This is great I can't wait.

 

[worldjem7]

Yeah in Mario Strikers Charged I'd always get a 0-4 star rating of my opponent's connection speed. People with less than 3 I would not face because I tried it once and there was just way too much lag. So maybe in Brawl there will be a connection rating between opponents?

 

[YOSHIDO]

yay its really comin together. I'll get a wii after christmas or somethin

 

[darkNES386]

Yeah in Mario Strikers Charged I'd always get a 0-4 star rating of my opponent's connection speed. People with less than 3 I would not face because I tried it once and there was just way too much lag. So maybe in Brawl there will be a connection rating between opponents?

According to the dojo... the strength of your connection is measured by a colored dot next to each of your friends....

"the closer to blue, the smoother the play"

 

[worldjem7]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that lol. Well that answers that. I'm sure everyone in North America won't have a problem connecting to each other unless they have a bad internet connection to start with. (like 56k dial-up or some crap like that)

 

[darkNES386]

Ask for this for christmas if you want your internet connection speed to be the best it can....

And deffinately switch to something better than 56k... I'm set at College... and back home my family finally made the switch this fall. Please, please understand that if lag is a problem... we can't help you much.... and for all we know lag might make this whole thing fall apart... but if we stay in North America... I think we should be fine.... afterall it's for fun more than competition... this is in no way competeing with live tournaments.

 

[Hylian]

This has my attention and looks great.

 

[Bli33ard]

Personally, I think it'd be sweet if everyone puts themselves onto a list, then just keep fighting each other.

But something that WILL annoy you guys - what if someone enters a room who isn't playing in the match? This used to happen on MKDS, but obviously (hopefully) SSBB will have more control over things like that.

 

[darkNES386]

This has my attention and looks great.

I'm happy to hear that. Keep checking for updates. I think I'm going to make a video over christmas break that explains only the necessary details in a nutshell. People don't like to read all that text unless they are curious about all the technical aspects.

Personally, I think it'd be sweet if everyone puts themselves onto a list, then just keep fighting each other.

The ladder system that you are referring to is something that other people are working on. I would venture to say that smashboards will probably have their own as well.

What the Online Brawl Community Tournament Series is promising to offer you is a single night of over 10 matches with a variety of opponents. Also, for a select few that qualify you have a chance to try and win it all for that current tournament. As each tournament progresses, The Online Brawl Community will keep track of your results so you can sort of track how you fair compared to other players. You'll get a point system based off of how many elimination brackets you qualify for and what rounds you make it to. The hope is that we will have some of the same returning people from tournament to tournament.

Personally, I think it'd be sweet if everyone puts themselves onto a list, then just keep fighting each other.

But something that WILL annoy you guys - what if someone enters a room who isn't playing in the match?

Well... they really can't. For each match, the schedule I generate tells each player whether they are joining or creating (the room/match) which gives them control over who can join according to the dojo update from Monday:

*some people really ripped on this update.... I couldn't have been more happy on December 3rd to get more information about online play.

 

[MegaMan087]

This looks great. Count me in when it gets started!

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Ask for this for christmas if you want your internet connection speed to be the best it can....

And deffinately switch to something better than 56k... I'm set at College... and back home my family finally made the switch this fall. Please, please understand that if lag is a problem... we can't help you much.... and for all we know lag might make this whole thing fall apart... but if we stay in North America... I think we should be fine.... afterall it's for fun more than competition... this is in no way competeing with live tournaments.

I'll considering asking for this, or buying it myself, of course. BTW, would you recommend it if I already have a wireless connection? I mean my connection isn't bad at all, but I don't know if it's top notch.

 

[darkNES386]

I'll considering asking for this, or buying it myself, of course. BTW, would you recommend it if I already have a wireless connection? I mean my connection isn't bad at all, but I don't know if it's top notch.

This person sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Sadly he's hasn't bee on smash for quite some time.

2) Latency from Internet Hardware
I do not have exact numbers for this, but for my laptop, connecting to a network wirelessly has more latency (about 10-30 ms) compared to connecting with an ethernet cord. The Wii LAN Adapter should help reduce latency by letting you connect with an ethernet cord. Also connecting directly to your modem (bypassing your router) may reduce a small amount lag. If you are using wireless, you may want to consider not using encryption. Decoding an encrypted wireless packet may add to the latency, so turning off your wireless network's encryption while you play may also reduce some lag. I think 3-5 ms is a good estimate of the latency of the Wii, router, and modem not on wireless (not including distance).

 

[Super_alex2]

This is a fantastic idea. I'm all for it, *bookmarks*

 

[Frogla]

i want in when this is started also.

 

[Blu-ninja]

this is problably the most original idea ive seen so far.

i had an idea like this but,
ile just go with yours.



i wanna see how this plays out before entering it...
so is this a one time deal of will there be many more?

 

[AltF4]

AltF4Warrior... I apologize for not having the proper vocabulary... but when playing a game like mario striker with a friend... does someone actually host the match where it puts them at an advantage with latency?

Whether or not this is the case... matches are probably going to be scheduled so that an equal amount of games are being created and joined by everyone. When the elimination bracket rounds start... if it becomes a serious problem I guess we could make it "equal" by having a director from a "neutral position" host the match?.... please share any ideas you have and maybe a little more insight into your concern Altf4Warrior. You are bringing up this "hosting" of brawl matches in regards to lag problems, correct?

Yea. Lag is going to be a huge issue.

The game has to be run on someone's Wii. That person is the "Host". The host plays the game on their own machine, so there's no lag for him. It'd be just like playing a normal game of melee in terms of lag.

But for everyone else, they have to connect to the host over a distance. They are usually referred to as Clients. When a client presses a button, the signal doesn't just go into his Wii. It goes through his Wii, out his router and modem, to his service provider (which usually has 4-5 hops), over to the Host's modem, to his router, then t the Hosts's Wii where the signal has to be demodulated then put on screen.

Then the Host has to send the signal back over to client in order for his move to show up on his screen.



Put it this way: In competitive Halo, they use 8 Xboxes LAN'd together. The boxes are no more than a couple of feet away from each other, and yet lag is a huge issue. The Host player has a significant advantage.


Possible solutions:
-Deal with the lag as a form of counterpicking. Say that the higher seeded player gets host on game 1 of a set, but the loser can choose to counterpick to host. You can determine the details of the counterpicking system.

- Set up (more than 1) Host Wiis. What you'd do is have several Wiis across the US and have everyone play their matches on those Wiis. You're going to need volunteers for this, but this way the lag will be neutral. (approximately the same for both players)


Hope that helps.

 

[VirusTsunami]

Has anyone made a site for this? Ive been meaning to host one up, www.wiitournaments.com if soeone wants t remake the rules or whatever p.m. me

 

[darkNES386]

Has anyone made a site for this? Ive been meaning to host one up, www.wiitournaments.com if soeone wants t remake the rules or whatever p.m. me

The group already has a website here. It is nothing special and is not even necessary to run succesful tournaments... all you need is this. Forums are going to be where it's at for any well planned online tournaments. What better way for anyone to instantly view anyone else's results and to make friends with one another than through a forum?

Yea. Lag is going to be a huge issue.

Possible solutions:
-Deal with the lag as a form of counterpicking. Say that the higher seeded player gets host on game 1 of a set, but the loser can choose to counterpick to host. You can determine the details of the counterpicking system.

- Set up (more than 1) Host Wiis. What you'd do is have several Wiis across the US and have everyone play their matches on those Wiis. You're going to need volunteers for this, but this way the lag will be neutral. (approximately the same for both players)


Hope that helps.

This tournament series' Goals:
1)Players will be able to play in multiple matches in a single day regardless of how good or bad they play.
2) Better players will enjoy the added benefit of the elimination bracket.
3) If you cannot make it to one tournament... the next could be as early as the following weekend.
***As a result, players will easily be able to find those within their skill level and always find some sort of competition that they are looking for online.

This requires tournaments to run smoothly with lots of legroom to deal with cheaters and lag issues. In other words, if you try to cheat or have a lousy connection, I am sorry but we will just go on without you.

A few things:
1)Pools/Round Robin Portion
-Everyone will create and join as close to an equal number of games as possible according to the schedule posted. An example of this is Here
-Due to the sheer volume of players we may have, I think it is unrealistic to try to get a separate "host" for each match.
-Creating an equal number of games to "host" should be fair enough for this portion. The better fighters should still qualify out of their individual pools.

2) Elimination Bracket/Qualifiers
-We will possibly have a neutral party (directors) create and invite both contestants to these matches. There is so many ways players could cause problems that it only makes sense. Player A says player B is not joining... Player B claims player A has not even added him to his friend’s list making it impossible to play one another... the list goes on. If a director has both people connected to him via friends list, then the only concern is any in game issues such as a disconnect. We still do not know what happens in a "FRIENDLY" match when there is a disconnect. Testing on this will commence immediately after Brawl's release if we do not know everything about it by then. Lag in general will be tested. (I have made connections with people on U.S. coasts, Canada, and even locations such as Puerto Rico)Mr. Sakurai said there would be some noticeable lags outside the country (specifically ASIA to the US)... we will see just how much of a concern this is.

PLEASE REALIZE... that this is online play. There are going to be issues. I am sorry, it is not perfect. I am sorry if your Meta game might suffer a little. I can't picture Nintendo making an online option for Brawl if lag was going to hurt play to the point where the host is the one who has a huge advantage... what would be the point then in playing anyone?

 

[kenhead]

noob

how do i enter the tornament??

 

[darkNES386]

how do i enter the tornament??

^Your username on smashboards is part of your registration... by simply submitting the below:
BrawlName: Nicky (your mii userName)
FriendCode: 9999-9999-9999 (you don't know this yet)
Region: Midwest

No one can register yet since no one knows their friend code for Brawl. Realize that you must log onto the WFC with your individual Brawl Game and specific Mii in order to get the proper friend code. Region is important if lag becomes a serious issue. More details on this will follow.

 

[Joecool]

This has to be the most organized online plans for brawl I have yet to see. Kudos to you.

 

[Lord Viper]

I would like to Smash Online. Febuary 22? Nice day.

 

[AltF4]

When a player has host, there are lots of nasty things you can do to cheat out your opponent. You have complete control over signals going into your Wii, and essentially can make your opponent do anything you want.

The easiest hack I can think of is to block incoming packets from your opponent at will. I could easily make a program that at the push of a button makes your opponent go limp. All you have to do is push it when your opponent is recovering.

There'd be no way to know if it was a hack, lag, or packets lost in transfer.

Just letting you know the kinds of things people can do. If I got more inventive and went out of my way, I could make much more malicious things. Of course I wouldn't do this, but don't think someone else won't.

 

[jas3]

sorry, i'm too lazy to search, but how do i find out my wii #?

 

[Joecool]

When a player has host, there are lots of nasty things you can do to cheat out your opponent. You have complete control over signals going into your Wii, and essentially can make your opponent do anything you want.

The easiest hack I can think of is to block incoming packets from your opponent at will. I could easily make a program that at the push of a button makes your opponent go limp. All you have to do is push it when your opponent is recovering.

There'd be no way to know if it was a hack, lag, or packets lost in transfer.

Just letting you know the kinds of things people can do. If I got more inventive and went out of my way, I could make much more malicious things. Of course I wouldn't do this, but don't think someone else won't.

So can they do? Have someone esle set upa room besides the two players? That would cause alot of lag.

 

[darkNES386]

AltF4Warrior - look, I understand that there's a lot of things we can account for and there's also a lot of things people can do that will be very difficult to stop. We are going to wait and see how the lag turns out and in the mean time plan to organize the actual structure of the tournament.

Online play is going to be what it is. We can't make this super competative... it's impossible. We can't remove all lag. We can make it as fair as possible. Modified controllers... hacks.... we can't stop it all. We can only hope that a large majority of the people will play fair. Each player is going to have to get through at least 10 opponents so hopefully by the time they're done with that, half those players will be like... "what the hell? This person did something to my guy" We're not going to jump at the moment someone says "cheater." That opens a whole other set of cheating options.

All I have to say is... any sort of cheating is just flat out pathetic. I know it's going to happen..., but this is for free as of now... no wii points... no entry fee... so that should prevent a large majority of players from cheating. If you've noticed... no moderators have commented on this thread. This isn't being considered a SMASHBOARDS EVENT right now. Winning this won't make someone a "proffessional." The only people that will truely recognize any players in this event is the other participants in this tournament series.

You're discussion on tournament layouts is really good. If you have any suggestions about the actual structure of my tournament, please feel free to share them or discuss them with me.

This is for fun and a little competition for those looking for it. I want everyone to realize that if we had 3,200 partipicants right now.... we would make 128 groups with 25 participants in each group probably. That would mean that only 128 people are going to qualify... maybe 256 (if two from each group). So I will tell you right now.... a large percentage of you are not going to make it to the bracket... AND THAT'S FINE!!! Maybe next time.... don't be so hard on yourself. The whole point is to have fun and get better. Make a friend or two to play against when the tournaments aren't going on. Play for the sake of playing. If you're THAT GOOD... then take this for what it's worth and go to live tournament. That's not to say you won't find good players in this series. The name of this series speaks for itself.

Once again... there will be a short and sweet little video coming out within two weeks that will clearly state the whole point of this tournament series... what it's about... the need to know basis rules. I'll then probably make a second video that covers a lot of "What-if questions."

sorry, i'm too lazy to search, but how do i find out my wii #?

Your wii code is not necessary right now for registration. To find it though you go to your mail message icon in the lower right corner and then click on the address boook and you should be able to see it from there or you might have to click one more thing.

What you will need for this game is your Brawl Friend Code which can only be obtained once you go online with your own Mii and copy of Brawl.

 

[Big Burn]

interesting....just wanted to subscribe to this thread

 

[Joecool]

WOW 3,200 is huge, and think it could be even more than that playing. This probably gon end up being a 3 day tourny.

 

[darkNES386]

WOW 3,200 is huge, and think it could be even more than that playing. This probably gon end up being a 3 day tourny.

The above would be one extreme case (we would try not to have 25 people to a group.... that's going to be the cap)

I'm just tryign to show that we have options... we could take those 128 qualifiers and split them again into 8 pools of 16.... then have the top of each group (8 total) compete in the elimination bracket.

IN OTHER WORDS>>>>

At ten minutes a match--- between start to finish and creation/joining of next game.

Day 1 is 128 pools of 25 (that's 3200 contestants... 250 minutes of playing time for everyone... there would probably be a 15/20 minute break in the middle or something)

So over night 3200 becomes 128... AND EVERYONE, WIN OR LOSE PLAYED IN A POSSIBLE 24 MATCHES MAX!!!

Day 2 is 8 pools of 16 (comprised of the 128 qualifiers from day 1)(This takes roughly 160 minutes)

After a little break... with 4 directors running/watching 4 matches... 2 matches...championship match
8 qualifiers from second round robin --> 4 --> 2 --> winner (those would take only a half hour if they were all played at the same time. 10 minutes a round.)

*incase you are wondering, pools would all be randomly generated with each player having a score based on how many qualifyers/elimination bracket matches they've had. So for the first tournament everything would have a score of 0. This is to try and keep every group balanced.
*the overall goal is to keep both the elimination bracket and the pools a decent size... but not too big. The elimination bracket matches are the most important matches because a players tournament life is at stake with every match. One mishap in a pool match can be just played through... example: you report a disconnect or later you find out your opponent is claiming the outcome was their win instead of yours... whatever the case... you're able to keep playing because you have no clue what they're going to claim until the round robin is over.

SO WHY ARE YOU TELLING US THIS NICK?

PEOPLE NEED TO REALIZE THAT ONLINE PLAY HAS STRENGTH IN NUMBERS. Everyone plays at the same time... so however long it takes you to play all your matches is the time it takes everyone to play all of their matches. So the length of a tournament is decided not by it's number of participants directly but by the number of rounds an individual participates in. To recap the above example:

25 players to a group = 24 rounds for each player @ 10 mins a round = 250 minutes
16 players to a group = 15 rounds for each player @ 10 mins a round = 150 minutes
8 qualifiers results in 3 rounds of play ... 30 minutes.

That's a playing time of at least 4 hours. 400 minutes of Online Brawl in a weekend for 8 out of the 3200 players or a litte under 7 hours.Once again this would be one of the most extreme cases.

Oh and by the way...
For a single pool total matches played = n/2*(n-1) where n = contestants
So for 128 pools at 25 members a pool ---> 25/2*(25-1) * 128 pools = 38,400 matches on night 1
Day 2 is 16 people per group in 8 pools is 448 matches + 7 matches to decide the winner from an 8 man bracket.

We just did 38,855 matches in 2 days over the span of 7 hours.

Even if you had 100 tvs and could run each match at 10 minutes and instantly start up the next... it would take about 3890 minutes or 65 hours to do this tournament live.

That's the beauty of online play. Are we deciding the champion of North America? No... are we playing a lot of awesome matches in a single weekend? Yes. Are we meeting lots of new people? Yes. Are we creating rivalries and satisfiying the urge for a little competition? Yes. Are you having fun? I hope so.

 

[Joecool]

So how will this tournment be when it becomes a Smashboards event?

 

[AltF4]

? Smashboards doesn't "sponsor" events. The fact that this thread is rather prominent on the boards pretty much makes it a "smashboards event". Whatever that means.


DarkNES: I understand what you're saying about your tourney just being for fun. But the potential is present for people to ruin that fun for others.

The vulnerability is there, I merely brought it to your attention. If you still don't feel it's a priority, then that's your ability as director to do so.

 

[Joecool]

Ohhh, when the talk about entrant fees and etc started I thought it had to do with it being a smashboards "Event"

 

[Venom NY]

so how do i register exatcly?since the game hasnt even come out yet.

 

[Grod]

This seems sick! I'll definitely do this when I get Brawl.
And by the way, Feb 22 is a Friday, and I have school. I don't want it to interrupt that, so what time does the tournament start?