On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[JOE!]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-sdi-foxs-u-throw-u-air-and-not-die.217426/

It seems you are then prime position to be Usmashed...

 

[Ace55]

What's to stop Fox players from...just doing the move slightly earlier and only hitting with the second hit? :/

Most players are lazy and don't want to have to learn that kind of thing, so instead they get away with and lose to, dumb things that shouldn't work. Re:Ike2.1

Somehow I feel like two non-Fox mains telling Foxes that it's easy to do something better is perhaps a bit... naive.

It seems you are then prime position to be Usmashed...

Wo0t? You're in the air with no hitstun...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I never said it was easy to do. I said that if SDI'ing U-Air is as simple as people make it out to be, the benefits are obvious.

 

[Ace55]

I never said it was easy to do. I said that if SDI'ing U-Air is as simple as people make it out to be, the benefits are obvious.

Ok. I'm not a Fox main myself but I suspect it's either retartedly hard to do or plain impossible. Otherwise I can't believe people wouldn't be doing it.

Just re-watched Mango vs Hbox at APEX for the hell of it and he didn't single-hit him with upair once.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, what was the success rate of U-Throw -> U-Air, out of curiosity?

 

[ph00tbag]

I just think Fox should have less damage output. He already has the best throughput in the game, he doesn't need to have above average output on top of that.

 

[GaretHax]

Well, what was the success rate of U-Throw -> U-Air, out of curiosity?

Can't speak for rates or other values but DI-Ing out of Uair is pretty easy in and of itself, it just can be tricky to time since fox can mix up when he choses to do the Uair or just get you with the second hit (my personal favorite). Not to mention it can be tricky depending on how the fox actually catches you with it. And sometimes you just don't see it coming /shrug. Also really people have broken down into just calling large groups of players lazy now? Nice, though it is kinda impressive this thread is still around.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm talking about in the previously-described Mango vs. Hungrybox match.

 

[CyberZixx]

I'm talking about in the previously-described Mango vs. Hungrybox match.

I watched the match and Mango went for it often. It only failed twice. Once the second hit phantom hit and failed to knockback. The second time Jiggs was too high percent. In the first game of the set three of Mango's kills were due to it.

 

[Mithost]

I'm not a fox main (I don't play much fox at all) and I can hit with it pretty consistently after a few tries. It's really good especially when you put it in the same character who has fox's UpSmash and fall speed. It doesn't even screw you over if you miss with it, seeing how fast fox gets to the ground.

 

[Spiffykins]

A more consistently landing Uair that kills 20% later would be a neat idea but not really something for a mod made to emulate Melee, and does nothing to stop Fox from just being dumb for 20 more percent. Same with U-smash killing later. It doesn't address the silliness of his design, it just means you have to deal with the bull**** for longer.

Nah, it's something at least. If we're emulating Melee, shouldn't it be better to keep the style of play the same rather than changing core character mechanics like shine? He'll have to work a little harder to get the carrot on the stick either way. Let him sprint if he wants to, just make him sprint a little longer.

 

[Ace55]

Nah, it's something at least. If we're emulating Melee, shouldn't it be better to keep the style of play the same rather than changing core character mechanics like shine? He'll have to work a little harder to get the carrot on the stick either way. Let him sprint if he wants to, just make him sprint a little longer.

Except in this case it would turn a somewhat unreliable kill setup into a guaranteed kill setup.

Well, what was the success rate of U-Throw -> U-Air, out of curiosity?

Surprisingly high, like 80%. Watch Armada or Axe though and it almost never works.

 

[JOE!]

Let's discuss this a little more:

What aspects of fox do you feel are too strong?
Can they be changed without altering his "feel"?
Is the power or ease of his ko options the issue?


What aspects of falco do you feel are too strong?
Can they be changed without altering his "feel"?
Is pillaring or his interrupt game the issue?

 

[Spiffykins]

Except in this case it would turn a somewhat unreliable kill setup into a guaranteed kill setup.

Well yeah, I don't think it should hit more reliably to be honest. I forgot about that part. Slightly less kill power with no other changes to it would be 100% ok with me.

Let's discuss this a little more:

What aspects of fox do you feel are too strong?
Can they be changed without altering his "feel"?
Is the power or ease of his ko options the issue?

What aspects of falco do you feel are too strong?
Can they be changed without altering his "feel"?
Is pillaring or his interrupt game the issue?

They have so many fantastic properties and moves and it's the combination of all of them that make them what they are. It's definitely not impossible to change something without it feeling drastic, the question is what do you pick? For Falco, his dair edgeguarding is obnoxious and hitting with it as early as possible in combos is usually ideal anyway because of knockback stacking, so reducing the spike duration makes sense to me. For Fox, he gets to work his combo game for a very short time before he can set up for his super-strong up stuff, so why not just make those kill a bit later? It's not like he lacks kill setups when his opponents reach very high percents anyway.

Other than that, shaving a percent of damage here and there off some of their primary combo moves and/or a tiny bit of shield stun on aerials/shine might work. Again, this keeps their combos and feel intact and still probably wouldn't knock them down a peg on the Melee tier list.

tl;dr - How do you nerf a spacie? Very slightly.

 

[Phaiyte]

I'd like to point out that at some tournament there was a guy in doubles that didn't have a partner so he'd paid for a cpu entry and almost, if not won, the entire thing basically by himself with Luigi. I'm just saiyan, This isn't something I've not seen any other player do with any other character.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Was it a Level 9 CPU Luigi? That's not anything new, in that case.

 

[BTmoney]

If you want to nerf fox, which you shouldn't, then nerf his ground speed.
It was stated before that toning down a move won't stop him from being the better character for X amount more percent.

You also probably shouldn't be getting edge guarded by Falco's dair enough for it to be a problem.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Let's discuss this a little more:
[snip]

Shine for both, more so Fox. Sort of but not really lasers for Falco. Sort of but not really U-tilt for both. Other stuff is fine.

More than Fox and Falco being good I feel it's that the other characters are just so bad in comparison, design-wise.

 

[Spiffykins]

If you want to nerf fox, which you shouldn't, then nerf his ground speed.
It was stated before that toning down a move won't stop him from being the better character for X amount more percent.

You also probably shouldn't be getting edge guarded by Falco's dair enough for it to be a problem.

Yeah 'cause a fast, long lasting, conveniently placed, powerful spike is so rarely useful for edgeguarding, amirite?

 

[Mithost]

Yeah 'cause a fast, long lasting, conveniently placed, powerful spike is so rarely useful for edgeguarding, amirite?

^^ This

 

[ELI-mination]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaB_YrYzOTc#t=7m12s

 

[Mithost]

ZSS was at a reasonable kill percent, but that's still... eh. I think if any character that got buffed (bowser, wario, etc) had something like that, people would be complaining about it all day. Oh wait, they have. I'm not against keeping fox how he is if other characters don't get nerfed when they get something of similar riduclousness. Fox has ridiculous moves like this AND he has an almost perfect design with his other moves as well.

 

[GaretHax]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaB_YrYzOTc#t=7m12s

Pretty cool set, what are you trying to draw attention to though, I saw some flubbed u-throw uairs, some funny and unsafe usmash fishing, and one of my favorite matchups Zss vs Fox (personally I think she flat out loses but it's really fun to combo and be cokboed by her)

 

[ELI-mination]

If you don't see the silliness of that segment, you are beyond enlightenment.
I can help you no further.

 

[GaretHax]

If you don't see the silliness of that segment, you are beyond enlightenment.
I can help you no further.

But I said it was silly looking... I just wanted to know what in particular you were trying to draw attention to. Oh wait did you link to a specific part of the match? My phone is ******** and won't follow links properly, I start at the beginning no matter what lol.

 

[MonkUnit]

he linked to 7 minutes and 12 seconds into the video

 

[Juushichi]

Up-Smash. Just do it.

SB making that **** look 0 on block.

 

[Strong Badam]

Just do it.

 

[Deleted member]

If you don't see the silliness of that segment, you are beyond enlightenment.
I can help you no further.

zss has a ****ty shield game? i mean, what do you want from her? if that had been a character with a real shield game you'd see a molested fox because most of the cast has "insert fox/falco death combo here" blatantly imprinted somewhere into their movesets. that doesn't make the character too good, that makes upsmash a good tactical choice vs zss.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ZSS doesn't deal with pressure very well, IMO. She has N-Air and can U-Tilt on reaction if someone tries to jump in, but nothing super-reliable. Strong Bad was playing the matchup wrong with DK, I feel.

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah 'cause a fast, long lasting, conveniently placed, powerful spike is so rarely useful for edgeguarding, amirite?

Falco rarely opts for dairs for edge guarding unless you DI poorly and jump right into him.
For one it can be tech'd usually and two rising bairs and ledge hop bairs are a lot more universal.

This is a serious comment. My point is its edge guarding utility is marginal and that is not a reason why it should be nerfed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's way more mindless a move than other meteors, let alone spikes.

 

[Strong Badam]

zss has a ****ty shield game? i mean, what do you want from her? if that had been a character with a real shield game you'd see a molested fox because most of the cast has "insert fox/falco death combo here" blatantly imprinted somewhere into their movesets. that doesn't make the character too good, that makes upsmash a good tactical choice vs zss.

yeah, basically. I spammed upsmash because I could.
and it's hilarious

to the dude that said "flubbed uthrow u-airs," you clearly weren't paying attention. what you witnessed was very good SDI from Oro combined with ZSS's particularly thin width during her non-tumble hitstun action, not an error on my part.

ZSS doesn't deal with pressure very well, IMO. She has N-Air and can U-Tilt on reaction if someone tries to jump in, but nothing super-reliable. Strong Bad was playing the matchup wrong with DK, I feel.

agreed.

 

[Oro?!]

Well it's sorta hard to think clearly when you are playing in tournament, but in hindsight since my fastest options that could reach Fox after upsmash on my shield didn't work, I could still just hooligan away for free basically. ZSS' strengths aren't in her shield game clearly, so it's not surprising.

 

[Deleted member]

that was actually my problem with zss when i played her, i wanted a better shield game. without it, you need predictive movement, which is fine when you're playing aggressive like marth and you don't really want to shield, but i'm not familiar enough with her yet to do it? idk

 

[himemiya]

zss needs an more better recovery. Her fall being slower faller would help alot (she not an rule 63 falcon anyways). Her recovery is based on having an 2nd jump so see can cancel her down-b with her up-b could use an more diagonal range (same with ivysaur). Her side b can also use less start-up (in the air at least). Her recovery is the huge reason why I'm not maining her I end up killing myself all the time (fast-faller+tether recovery) and hope its fix.

Also strongbad response to your quote: mk isn't the problem basic brawl is.

 

[The_NZA]

While yeah, her shield game isn't good, that situation of a fox fishing for an usmash is quite common at many skill levels and in the way fox's usmash is designed, he differs in this regard from any other character. Other characters have an optimal killing move that they will try and set up at the prerequisite percentages. But, if your opponent sees it coming, they can prevent it with ease, requiring that character to try some other kill maneuver.

Ness, might want to bthrow you once your past 100%, but if he cant, he has to try a bair. If he can't land that, he has to put you in a situation where he can uair you.

Fox's usmash is so good, you don't really need to try to go for other kill moves. I mean, by all means, shine spike the guy to death if you can. But really, when you can run usmash, shine usmash, dd -> usmash, jab -> usmash, why go for much else? Obviously, a counter exists, but its disproportionate utility and power makes it unique in a game which possesses better move balance.

 

[GaretHax]

yeah, basically. I spammed upsmash because I could.
and it's hilarious

to the dude that said "flubbed uthrow u-airs," you clearly weren't paying attention. what you witnessed was very good SDI from Oro combined with ZSS's particularly thin width during her non-tumble hitstun action, not an error on my part.

agreed.

It wasn't meant to be taken quite so seriously and I'm certainly not trying to discredit either of you. I didn't mean flub as user error, more so just not connecting. The SDI is pretty obvious.

 

[ELI-mination]

You are missing the point if you're talking about ZSS's shield game.
Here's the point:

It is not a "noob" or "low level" tactic to throw out several usmashes with Fox in a calculated way. In this particular clip, sure it was ZSS and she was shielding. In other scenarios, it may not be ZSS sitting there shielding, it may not be a character shielding at all, but STILL Fox can throw out usmashes in an intellegient manner. It's that simple.

For you to look at the clip and frantically search for a way to justify Fox's ability to throw out usmashes in tournament-level play repeatedly by blaming everything else except Fox's silliness is to completely miss the point and to passively accept Fox's ridiculously poor character design because you're simply used to it from melee. Why is it a poor design choice? Because Fox should not be able to throw out the same attack over and over again as if it were a viable strategy that can get kills at hilariously low percents at amazing speeds while possessing ridiculous range and a plethora of other options.

 

[Nintendude]

Fox spamming up-smash to fish for kills is not a viable strategy overall. It's very punishable and if Fox gets punished he's either gonna die or take a crapload of damage. The whole point of spacies is that when they are played near perfectly they are ridiculous but as soon as they screw up they suck. Consistently avoiding punishment at really high level is insanely hard to do which is why Fox has never dominated the top levels of Melee. That said I still think Fox's up-smash can be nerfed to PAL levels, but it's certainly not something that can be spammed. If Fox were a floaty character it'd be a much different story. Also if a character is unable to deal with Fox up-smash spam, I'd attribute that more to a character lacking defense rather than Fox being broken.

edit: also I'm confused, in that ZSS vs Fox clip why is the ZSS trying to punish with something that's clearly too slow? Fox's up-smash is punishable by shieldgrab and wavedash out of shield.