On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[The_NZA]

Knockback is what i advocate for. Right now, his usmash is silly...like I don't know any other character who has as powerful and easy a smash that is as good on teh map set and as unpunishable.

usmash is 6 frames. you can do it out of a run. You can do it out of a shine. It covers a really good area. It is not area dependent on the stage (as it is a vertical killer, meaning it is equally good anywhere on the stage). It is harder to DI and survive.

Just remove its power. It should kill the cast probably at 20% later than it currently does.

 

[CyberZixx]

We we were to nerf Fox and Falco I would not want to do much to them. That upsmash nerf sounds good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bowser, Wario, Sonic.

Bowser is a perfect example of a character who has nowhere to go but down in the current metagame. It's safe to say that his options won't allow for his metagame to grow much more than we've already come to expect from him. He still struggles against camping in a bad way, and many of his options are working due to people not being used to those enormous hitboxes and extra speed, etc. Once people start dashdancing more and learn to box him out,as well as stop panicking to dumb stuff like a Forward-B grab or his Down-B cancel, I think he'll stop being a really potent force in tournaments due to specific matchups and the general limitations of his movement.

Wario is somewhere between Mid and High, I think, though I'm leaning toward Mid, for sure. Struggles to kill people sideways outside of hard reads and can't adequately fight people faster than him who just camp and space (most of the traditionally-good Melee characters are great at it). His mobility isn't good enough to work in the neutral position against the faster characters, but his various different options may yet save him. Still a pretty good character with no debilitating matchups all-around, but people still get gimmicked to death or move forward when they should wait against him. Even when people "figure him out," he'll still probably have the ability to win tournaments.

Yeah, Sonic's kind of completely obnoxious due to the lack of commitment on so many options. I'll give you that.

my top tier is fox falco sheik mario peach and sonic in no order. mario peach and sonic are really damn good in this game and you'd be nuts to overlook them as proper top tiers.

Mario is quite good and boosted up, but I don't think he breaks the Top threshold, mostly because his most universal traits aren't extreme enough. That sounds like a silly reason, but, it's hard for me to describe it in a better way. He's not especially mobile, not especially good at approaching, not especially good at camping, not especially good at landing KOs (though he is certainly powerful and has good set-ups), and not especially good at comboing (though he is up there). A lot of his most important traits aren't quite good enough to stand on the same footing as those who excel to the maximum, and so he can struggle to set the pace in a fair amount of matchups. Still has all the tools to succeed pretty much anywhere, but Top is a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[Ace55]

Fox I think would actually still be damn good, falco on the other hand would lose one of the 4 moves in his set: Dair, Fsmash, B, Down B.

Wow...

Because uptilt, bair, dsmash and nair aren't some of the best moves in the game right?

 

[himemiya]

They should deal with nerfs after they released all the character (diddy doesn't need to be). Also it wouldn't kill pmbr to design a character thats on there level (metaknight).

 

[SpiderMad]

diddy definitely needs to be, do you know how much potassium is in bananas?

 

[himemiya]

Nope, and his recovery so called greatness is over exaggerated.

 

[SpiderMad]

his recovery is the best in the game/tied with sonic

 

[himemiya]

And it shouldn't be nerfed still. If they nerf it they might as well nerf peaches cause its too good.

 

[SpiderMad]

If you don't take the other persons stock for every time YOU'RE recovering, yo doing it wrong

 

[himemiya]

only if they come off stage to attempt to gimp/spike/meteor me.

 

[SpiderMad]

no if they don't come out to die, u blast right at them and hit them and then you land with negative 10 frames of landing lag (you go back in time 10 frames) and then fair them and they die

 

[himemiya]

I still don't want my mains to nerf because they become unplayable if they do.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is the problem with nerfs. They get taken to far.

 

[himemiya]

ikr? for ike couldn't they change his fsmash/fair animation cause that was the only problem?I don't see the problem with 2.1 lucario and nerfing lucas dacus was stupid.

 

[The_NZA]

Its a demo, all of your characters are subject to change if their design is rewarding unintelligent play. Fox's usmash, i'd argue, rewards unintelligent play because i've seen some people spam it to success once their opponent is past 95%

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Its a demo, all of your characters are subject to change if their design is rewarding unintelligent play. Fox's usmash, i'd argue, rewards unintelligent play because i've seen some people spam it to success once their opponent is past 95%

Well, by that logic, Marth's F-Smash rewards unintelligent play because people ("some people," technically) see success doing it (against bad players).

We try to consider the game from all levels of play, sure, but, what's most important is how it works at the highest levels of play.

 

[BTmoney]

Its a demo, all of your characters are subject to change if their design is rewarding unintelligent play. Fox's usmash, i'd argue, rewards unintelligent play because i've seen some people spam it to success once their opponent is past 95%

Who actually loses to smash attack spam?
I don't even know how to take that but I am inclined to say that that does not work seeing as no one does that.

It' not like the move is safe on shield or on whiff.

 

[The_NZA]

Marth's fsmash doesn't have the leadins or flexibility that the usmash does. For one, it needs to be perfectly spaced, has way worse cool down and is therefore punishable, isn't as quick.

Consider how many fox players you know who see the percent counter for an opponent go past 80%, and they start salivating, thinking of how their going to land their usmash. Is it going to be a running usmash, a shine to usmash, or just a simple jab -> usmash.

Obviously, a lot of characters have "that" move. C falcon's knee, shiek's fair, Link's upb. But the difference is, Fox's is a. super strong, b. super quick, c. easy to combo into, and d. very flexible in where and when it can be done to be used effectively, and most importantly, e. he doesn't have nearly enough glaring flaws to make it necessary for him to have a move that reliable at killing safely.

 

[The_NZA]

Who actually loses to smash attack spam?
I don't even know how to take that but I am inclined to say that that does not work seeing as no one does that.

It' not like the move is safe on shield or on whiff.

When I mean spam, I guess i don't mean it in the "projectile spam" kind of way. I mean it more like making all of your decisions center around trapping someone in a move, and centering your whole game around that move. I see fox players who after their opponent is past 80%, don't have to go for anything else except for leadins into usmash.

Arguably, all strategies are this way...after someone exceeds a certain percent, every character has a reliable easy move that will take care of them, and most strategies will funnel to that one option. But I find it disturbing that for fox, this funneling process happens so quickly. 80-95% is too early to kill someone that reliably.

 

[ELI-mination]

A case can be made that Fox's usmash spamming isn't really mindlessly spamming the move, but dash dancing around and methodically centering your strategy around landing his usmash, which is really the inherently bad design choice concerning Fox in this case. At high levels of play, it's still conceivable for a high level player to fish constantly for a Fox usmash because it's such a ridiculous move. And, using their smash knowledge and experience, Fox's overall speed and mobility can be exploited to persistently seek the means to land this very fast and absurdly powerful attack that has way too much range.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

A case can be made that Fox's usmash spamming isn't really mindlessly spamming the move, but dash dancing around and methodically centering your strategy around landing his usmash, which is really the inherently bad design choice concerning Fox in this case. At high levels of play, it's still conceivable for a high level player to fish constantly for a Fox usmash because it's such a ridiculous move. And, using their smash knowledge and experience, Fox's overall speed and mobility can be exploited to persistently seek the means to land this very fast and absurdly powerful attack that has way too much range.

It always seemed like it had more range than it should. Do we have a database for Fox with his Hitbox data from Project M?

 

[standardtoaster]

the hitboxes should match melee completely so you can just go off of that

 

[himemiya]

You guys should save the nerfs till all the characters are released. And even then you guys shouldn't take the nerfs to far like with ike plus I hope you guys actually let someone surpass fox/falco (mk I hope) and not nerf diddy.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Yeah, because the only thing more annoying than Fox/Falco needing to be top would be Metaknight needing to be tops.

I think Fox/Falco could use a couple of balancing nerfs but as the game goes on, many characters will need it. It's just a demo so there's room to experiment with these options.

Ike needed to be nerfed because his attacks were too fast with too wide of range and there was no point at all to using his stronger hitboxes because the difference between tip and hilt was so indifferent. It might seem like he was hit too hard with them, but I'm sure with enough trial, they'll figure out the perfect stats for him to possess.

Lucario was a flowchart's wet dream. Dash attack > Side B. Anything > Side B. He took such little effort and had such good attacks that he needed to be toned down so people would use his skills for more than just side B ****. I think Lucario feels much better now, though he took some getting used to, because I was used to idiot-moding him.

What makes me wonder, is why Fox and Falco need to be considered the best characters in the game. I know that the game is more like Melee than Brawl, but it's supposed to be a sequel, not Melee with more characters, that's why there are skills originating in brawl that were put in this game.

I love me some Fox as a character outside and inside the Smash universe. I used him almost exclusively for a while in brawl, despite him being basically worthless in it. (Though most of the characters I liked were bad in that game, oh well) I don't think it would unfair to want Fox and his feathery friend to have to work a little harder, considering that they already have better skills than many others.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

A case can be made that Fox's usmash spamming isn't really mindlessly spamming the move, but dash dancing around and methodically centering your strategy around landing his usmash, which is really the inherently bad design choice concerning Fox in this case. At high levels of play, it's still conceivable for a high level player to fish constantly for a Fox usmash because it's such a ridiculous move. And, using their smash knowledge and experience, Fox's overall speed and mobility can be exploited to persistently seek the means to land this very fast and absurdly powerful attack that has way too much range.

This is statement is true to the fullest. I just played a few games with my friend to test it and Eli's statement basically sums it up.

 

[SpiderMad]

Falcos so much cooler than Fox, still wish he could do a little more new stuff though.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario is quite good and boosted up, but I don't think he breaks the Top threshold, mostly because his most universal traits aren't extreme enough. That sounds like a silly reason, but, it's hard for me to describe it in a better way. He's not especially mobile, not especially good at approaching, not especially good at camping, not especially good at landing KOs (though he is certainly powerful and has good set-ups), and not especially good at comboing (though he is up there). A lot of his most important traits aren't quite good enough to stand on the same footing as those who excel to the maximum, and so he can struggle to set the pace in a fair amount of matchups. Still has all the tools to succeed pretty much anywhere, but Top is a bit of a stretch to me.

Agree with you @ Bowser, but disagree about Mario. You have to look at the margins rather than the accentuated traits to really get mario. For me, I think Mario benefits greatly from the reduced emphasis on movement the same way that sheik does. mario still has doc's phenomenal edge guards from melee, his own recovery is much harder to edge guard, his precision combos are easier in this game, etc. but much more important than all of this is that his throws are probably the best in the game by a lot. if you don't think mario is extreme, play true textbook smash ala ground control and start grabbing, you'll figure it out on your own. mario can only go up when players get more finesse and development into their play, way way up.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Mario is Top 15 IMO, but him being Top 8 I don't think I can agree with from what I've seen him do.

What is the general consensus on Ike anyways? Does he need more nerfs, buffs, or is he good where he is?

 

[leelue]

If the foxco tandem can still... play the way they want to, but have what they do just have the bite weakened a bit, that'd be great.

1 damage lasers. Fox upstuff weakened. Falco dair ending's either weakened or a meteor (because, really). Little thing here. Little thing there. Invincibility on shines taken away because they're clearly the worst designed move in the game (shoutouts to rest).
Hey, maybe after all is said and done they can make their Fair's a little more of an option. Because why not.
Sheiktweeks!

 

[Sixth-Sense]

if your gonna take something away, you should give something back with a little more logic and just aiming for difference in playstyle, basically shiek, i don't main her in melee or PM but swiching between the two the little tweaks just made her a little more fun, and for the oppenent a little more fair and/or not so gay in general.

If your gonna nerf them, it better be subtle, things that really won't affect thier gameplay or things that won't effect that general feel the character has, especially fox/falco, since they are very technical and you need to be on point and polished to get anywhere with them.

Hell Dr.pp said in a recent interview (i don't remember the tourney, but it was a monthly and he destroyed M2k with his marth, he also one first in PM) that he didn't like to play falco in PM because of the feel and then the other thing was that he tinks that the PM team messed a little with his laser stun, it's these kinds of things in current demos that throw people off and then they see the balancing in a negative light, kinda like how KK doesn't like PM because he says it's not "organic" etc.

enough rant, wait til the last demo, wait untill it feels like melee, then you should try to see what you can take out. Btw, one thing i don't like about fox is upthrow->upair, seriously change that, i love fox to death but goddamn that feels cheap and easy as hell, when my friend complains about i actually agree on how easy it is and how potent it is, if its not upsmash its upthrow->upair. EASY AS ****

 

[Soft Serve]

Personally I'm against changing anything about Fox and Falco, at least until after maybe a year of two after the full game comes out. Its better for the game to progress through adapting to characters and strategies over a longer time period. I would hate to see this turn into what happens in lol every other month: Characters become flavor of the month, and people abuse the aspects of the character that are the most obtrusive without actually learning the character's ins and outs. Things get nerfed and tweaked constantly, and people just move onto the next fotm character without actually learning and improving any characters metagames. The PMBR have been great at not jumping the gun on changes and I love them for it.

If anything I would make fox's Usmash/Uair kill at 10% less dmg 10-15% higher percents ( fixed, thanks), remove the invincibility on shine, but maybe make the first hit of his fair lead into follow ups or make his uair a single hit.

 

[CyberZixx]

I agree that we should wait a while to see a character be established before they are nerfed. It annoys me when fighting games get frequent patches to balance things out. Give the metagame time to develop. The counter point to that is in the case of Fox/falco they have a decade of solid metagame behind them so we know how to play the characters. Sure, they have new matchups but the tools are the same. I could go either way on changing them for the next revision or after the final game is out. Or even never, leave them be the best if you want. I can deal with that.

Are you really advocating for making Fox'es up kill moves better? Maybe I am reading that wrong. I gotta be.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Once the full game comes out, there will be no other changes.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Once the full game comes out, there will be no other changes.

In all honesty Soft Serve pretty clearly meant the penultimate release. When all the characters' designs are complete and a long-term metagame is allowed to develop instead of claiming Ike is broken after a 6-month metagame.

Only changes to Fox and Falco I would really want at all are remove shine invincibility and make it Jump Cancel 2 frames later.

 

[Ace55]

If anything I would make fox's Usmash/Uair kill at 10% less dmg 10-15% higher percents ( fixed, thanks), remove the invincibility on shine, but maybe make the first hit of his fair lead into follow ups or make his uair a single hit.

Making his upair single hit would be one of the biggest buffs I can think of. I think the Fox you are suggesting would actually be a good amount better than the current one...

Who cares about PAL upsmash, no invincibility on Shine? Guaranteed upthrow -> upair kills!

 

[standardtoaster]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-sdi-foxs-u-throw-u-air-and-not-die.217426/

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What's to stop Fox players from...just doing the move slightly earlier and only hitting with the second hit? :/

People sometimes have difficulty with this because they don't want to accidentally throw out an Up-Smash, but, if it were practiced, it would totally be a non-issue. Too bad more button presses are often given more focus than good timing.

 

[B.W.]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-sdi-foxs-u-throw-u-air-and-not-die.217426/

I actually learned about this from this exact post, and think about it constantly whenever I get grabbed by Fox.

Saves me almost every time.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Making his upair single hit would be one of the biggest buffs I can think of. I think the Fox you are suggesting would actually be a good amount better than the current one...

Who cares about PAL upsmash, no invincibility on Shine? Guaranteed upthrow -> upair kills!

A more consistently landing Uair that kills 20% later would be a neat idea but not really something for a mod made to emulate Melee, and does nothing to stop Fox from just being dumb for 20 more percent. Same with U-smash killing later. It doesn't address the silliness of his design, it just means you have to deal with the bull**** for longer.

What's to stop Fox players from...just doing the move slightly earlier and only hitting with the second hit? :/

People sometimes have difficulty with this because they don't want to accidentally throw out an Up-Smash, but, if it were practiced, it would totally be a non-issue. Too bad more button presses are often given more focus than good timing.

Most players are lazy and don't want to have to learn that kind of thing, so instead they get away with and lose to, dumb things that shouldn't work. Re:Ike2.1