Whoa, sorry. I misworded the most important word on there. When I said "illegal", I meant "immoral". For example, they sold Uzi's. What use could the buyer possibly have for that than mass murder? It's certainly not cost-efficient for hunting, and why bother with target practice for a gun like that? There simply aren't any legal practical uses for the weapon.
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On modified controllers
- Thread starter nealdt
- Start date
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GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
I suppose, though it's not exactly the same situation. Wheras the only use for an uzi would be murder, I can see modded controllers just be used to show off in free play, etc.
Mana stylez
If you're being robbed or attacked you don't want to have to point and aim to defend yourself, that;s why having an uzi is definitely better. Much like modded controllers. When you're playing vs people you don't want to have to worry about short hopping when you want or not, which is why you should mod your controller and carry an uzi. You should also look into getting a pacemaker incase your heart fails mid-match from all the intense mind-games you are focusing on instead of controlling your character, since the mods make that easier.
Also, so these other great and logical ideas of mine don't fade into the obscurity of the other page before getting a solid response:
Originally posted by Zephyr: "So why don't you actually address peoples' points instead of just giving false, vague responses that don't mean anything? I mean, it would be nice if you told us, but I guess you're not. Too bad. Manacloud gets to remain an ******* in the eyes of the socal smash community."
What if people stopped assumptioning things and stopped worsening in my views? Or What if the socal smash scene didn't have eyes?!
posting again:
I don't see what the big deal with modding controllers is anyway. I mean, people can mod themselves with steroids and pace-makers. Should we allow people with pace-makers to play smash? I mean, they have an advantage, cause if someone else who is playing has a heart failure they willlose their match, but if they have a pace-maker then their heart won't fail and they won't lose.
Let's get some real logic in here.
If you're being robbed or attacked you don't want to have to point and aim to defend yourself, that;s why having an uzi is definitely better. Much like modded controllers. When you're playing vs people you don't want to have to worry about short hopping when you want or not, which is why you should mod your controller and carry an uzi. You should also look into getting a pacemaker incase your heart fails mid-match from all the intense mind-games you are focusing on instead of controlling your character, since the mods make that easier.
Also, so these other great and logical ideas of mine don't fade into the obscurity of the other page before getting a solid response:
Originally posted by Zephyr: "So why don't you actually address peoples' points instead of just giving false, vague responses that don't mean anything? I mean, it would be nice if you told us, but I guess you're not. Too bad. Manacloud gets to remain an ******* in the eyes of the socal smash community."
What if people stopped assumptioning things and stopped worsening in my views? Or What if the socal smash scene didn't have eyes?!
posting again:
I don't see what the big deal with modding controllers is anyway. I mean, people can mod themselves with steroids and pace-makers. Should we allow people with pace-makers to play smash? I mean, they have an advantage, cause if someone else who is playing has a heart failure they willlose their match, but if they have a pace-maker then their heart won't fail and they won't lose.
GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
My bad, I forgot there is no real logic without the inclusion of pacemakers in the argument.
TheCatPhysician
Smash Ace
I'm gonna elaborate a little further on the steroid analogy. The analogy is that when a football player gets injured, he should have to wait to get better, just like when a Smasher breaks his good controller, he has to wait for his new controller to get broken in. And that there are unfair ways of getting around each of these: the football player can take steroids to heal his injuries and make him stronger, and the Smasher can mod his controller to make it broken in. Both ways make it so that the person doesn't have to wait.
But! Steroids don't heal injuries. And if they did, that is still completely different because steroids build muscle mass, so you'd get an unfair advantage. When the football player injures himself, he is going to have to wait no matter what. Now hypothetically if there WAS some way of getting around that waiting that was available to everyone, why would it be wrong? On the other hand, there IS a way for Smashers to get around the wait for their controller to break in: They can buy a used one that has already been broken in by someone else. Is this cheating? I don't see any reason why it would be. Supposing that you can mod a new controller to be broken in, this would just be another way of getting around that wait. Now when we're talking about unfair advantages, what if someone's controller broke and there just weren't any used controllers available for them to buy? Compared to someone who was lucky enough to find one, that's unfair. But with another method of getting around the wait, it only makes it MORE fair, because more people have a means of getting around the wait.
The analogy would fit if steroids healed injuries and the mod did more than break in the controller. Then both ways would not only get the person around the wait, but they would also have an unfair advantage. But remember, this is assuming that the mod ONLY does to the control stick what breaking in over time does. I hope we can agree on this now, I think we just misunderstood each other and were too quick to post.
But! Steroids don't heal injuries. And if they did, that is still completely different because steroids build muscle mass, so you'd get an unfair advantage. When the football player injures himself, he is going to have to wait no matter what. Now hypothetically if there WAS some way of getting around that waiting that was available to everyone, why would it be wrong? On the other hand, there IS a way for Smashers to get around the wait for their controller to break in: They can buy a used one that has already been broken in by someone else. Is this cheating? I don't see any reason why it would be. Supposing that you can mod a new controller to be broken in, this would just be another way of getting around that wait. Now when we're talking about unfair advantages, what if someone's controller broke and there just weren't any used controllers available for them to buy? Compared to someone who was lucky enough to find one, that's unfair. But with another method of getting around the wait, it only makes it MORE fair, because more people have a means of getting around the wait.
The analogy would fit if steroids healed injuries and the mod did more than break in the controller. Then both ways would not only get the person around the wait, but they would also have an unfair advantage. But remember, this is assuming that the mod ONLY does to the control stick what breaking in over time does. I hope we can agree on this now, I think we just misunderstood each other and were too quick to post.
Cort
Apple Head
The idea of breaking a controller in and modding a controller to do things a normal one couldn't (even if it was already completely "broken in") are completely different ideas. Trying to connect them to the football analogy doesn't make too much sense.
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
Not saying names but I know people who gave mana 2 brand new controllers to mod. And this person never even saw if the new controllers were any good. I mean if all were doing is fixing why fix 2 controllers that are possibly awsome, unless... there doing somthing other than fixing or at least trying to and acutally not doing anything. Anyway I've never really had a controller that couldn't dash dance well becasue it was new. But i have had one that was too old so that it couldnt dash dance and the stick would lean. So thats not much of a excuse. I know its possible but the only thing ive seen wrong with a new controller is the crappy l trigger on Silver controllers.
AzN_Lep
Smash Champion
Well that was a terribly repetitive read... Although this issue has probably been disregarded already I want to address the whole Steriod analogy. Hopefully this'll clear things up Cort.
Steroids aren't really an applicable analogy here. If you work out you gain mass, and if you take steroids you gain mass quicker. Ok that part checks out with the controller "modding." If you use a controller you break it in, and if you "mod" it you break it in quicker. However, the flaw here is if you keep working out you'll maintain you physique. Unfortunately if you continue to break in you controller, it simply breaks and you have to start from square one. Essentially what this means in the steriod analogy is if you continue to work out, you'll end up out of shape and have to rework yourself to your performance shape. This of course, is nonsense.
A more appropriate analogy would be football pads. At first they are stiff and the more you work them, the more comfortable they are. Eventually they will become worn out and you have to buy new stiff pads. Mana simply states that he can give you football pads that are already comfortable for use.
Herein lies the problem though. Mana has specifically to me that alot of the times players can only go so far with their abilities, and a modded controller will help you get to the next level. Obviously this could simply be a sales pitch, but that's kind of irrelevent. Back to the analogy. In this case, Mana is not just giving you worn in pads. He is giving you stronger, lighter, more effective pads that give you an advantage over players that are using regular pads. In this regard, there can be two athletes of equal ability, yet one performs better because has better equipment, equipment that is only available through Mana.
So if Mana is doing what he posted, there shouldn't be any problem with using the modded controller. However, if he's doing what he has told me (and many others) in person, then you can feel free to mod your controller, but you cannot use it in tournements. The debate should really be what is Mana doing to the controllers. Not whether or not it should be legal. It's obvious that one of his "mods" is entirely legit and the other "mod" should be banned. The real question is "What is Mana actually doing?"
Steroids aren't really an applicable analogy here. If you work out you gain mass, and if you take steroids you gain mass quicker. Ok that part checks out with the controller "modding." If you use a controller you break it in, and if you "mod" it you break it in quicker. However, the flaw here is if you keep working out you'll maintain you physique. Unfortunately if you continue to break in you controller, it simply breaks and you have to start from square one. Essentially what this means in the steriod analogy is if you continue to work out, you'll end up out of shape and have to rework yourself to your performance shape. This of course, is nonsense.
A more appropriate analogy would be football pads. At first they are stiff and the more you work them, the more comfortable they are. Eventually they will become worn out and you have to buy new stiff pads. Mana simply states that he can give you football pads that are already comfortable for use.
Herein lies the problem though. Mana has specifically to me that alot of the times players can only go so far with their abilities, and a modded controller will help you get to the next level. Obviously this could simply be a sales pitch, but that's kind of irrelevent. Back to the analogy. In this case, Mana is not just giving you worn in pads. He is giving you stronger, lighter, more effective pads that give you an advantage over players that are using regular pads. In this regard, there can be two athletes of equal ability, yet one performs better because has better equipment, equipment that is only available through Mana.
So if Mana is doing what he posted, there shouldn't be any problem with using the modded controller. However, if he's doing what he has told me (and many others) in person, then you can feel free to mod your controller, but you cannot use it in tournements. The debate should really be what is Mana doing to the controllers. Not whether or not it should be legal. It's obvious that one of his "mods" is entirely legit and the other "mod" should be banned. The real question is "What is Mana actually doing?"
Er...Brookman? The answer to your argument faded away into the obscurity of the tenth page too. XD Look near the bottom.
And Azn Lep, we've been asking that question the whole time. Manacloud just refuses to give up the entire truth.
And Azn Lep, we've been asking that question the whole time. Manacloud just refuses to give up the entire truth.
Cort
Apple Head
What manacloud is doing is attaching gigantic metal spikes to these "comfortable football pads" to help impale people you tackle. Then you have to dash dance a little to fling their lifeless bodies off of you.
It makes you a lot better at football.
It makes you a lot better at football.
manacloud1
Smash Champion
SuperRad
Smash Master
Hey mana:
Is that not true anymore? In the past 6 days did it go from "fixing" to some kind of modification?
Is that not true anymore? In the past 6 days did it go from "fixing" to some kind of modification?
If I may ask, why is it so imperative that you not say what you're really been doing to peoples' controllers? If it were harmless, I should assume that you would've told us by now. But you're acting like it's something bad that you don't want us to see. If that's really how it is, then I don't see how we can not assume the worst and band all the controllers you've modded from tournaments.
Cort
Apple Head
We should ban magic from tournaments.
You're missing the point. The hypothetical athlete wouldn't be taking steroids to heal their injuries. They would be taking steroids to rebuild the muscle mass they lost while in the hospital (due to muscle atrophy).
Steroids are banned so athletes have to work to build muscle mass, just as controller mods are banned so players have to work to get their controllers to respond as they want them to.
P.c. Chris
Smash Lord
rerere edit i'd never use a modded controller unless it was only cosmetic(i need to be pretty) mana claims its just like a normal controller cept broken in (so u dont have to spend a month breaking it in urself). but i'd like to try for myself to see if i can notice any big differences (no im not gunna buy one, someone lend me theirs)
TheCatPhysician
Smash Ace
Taking steroids to rebuild muscle mass lost is completely different, because you can't just magically go back to exactly where you were, and the person could just use it as an excuse to build even more muscle than they had.
You aren't adressing the point that someone can simply buy used controllers. The shoulder pad or whatever analogy was much more fitting because if someone needs to break in their pads, they can just buy used ones. If someone came up with a way to instantly break in the pads, then that would just be an alternative to buying used ones. Both ways get around the wait.
And wtf, mods aren't banned "so players have to work to get their controllers to respond as they want them to." The mods that are banned are the ones that give the user an unfair advantage, like a short hop button or something.
That's great, but it doesn't really refute my point.
Rebuilding muscle mass is what Neal was talking about. I'm sure he's aware that steroids don't magically heal injuries.
That isn't what the controllers do.
Right, so they can short hop without having to put in the time to train themselves to do it properly.
Strange, I don't remember saying that that's the only reason why controller mods are banned.
I wouldn't complain if I played a guy in Street Fighter and his arcade stick was better than mine (if you are not playing on arcade machines this is most likely the case). It doesn't matter much if I played someone in tennis and their racquet was much better than mine (as long as it isn't something illegal like spaghetti stringing).
Changes in the controller should not matter as long as they are not radically different. In my opinion, controllers should be legal as long as they're capable to do all the commands a factory controller can do. For instance, if a button can short hop only but cannot full jump that is illegal. If you cannot full shield and only light shield that is illegal. If the stick moves more easily thats legal however.
But does it really matter? You should be focusing on the game instead of the controller. What's next blaming the chair you are sitting on (apparently the chair was not modded enough to make you leet)? The air you are breathing was not as good as your opponent's?
I repeat. Give up this arguement about controllers and let it go. Focus on the game.. and on the player.
Changes in the controller should not matter as long as they are not radically different. In my opinion, controllers should be legal as long as they're capable to do all the commands a factory controller can do. For instance, if a button can short hop only but cannot full jump that is illegal. If you cannot full shield and only light shield that is illegal. If the stick moves more easily thats legal however.
But does it really matter? You should be focusing on the game instead of the controller. What's next blaming the chair you are sitting on (apparently the chair was not modded enough to make you leet)? The air you are breathing was not as good as your opponent's?
I repeat. Give up this arguement about controllers and let it go. Focus on the game.. and on the player.
Cort
Apple Head
I'm going to use KDJ's controller made of Japanese ancient oak and modified control stick made to feel like a fresh virgin every single time I move that piece of plastic.
This weekend at Zenith when KDJ brings it. It will be good.
I don't know if my hands will be able to take it, though.
Then I'll let everyone know what I think again.
This weekend at Zenith when KDJ brings it. It will be good.
I don't know if my hands will be able to take it, though.
Then I'll let everyone know what I think again.
TheCatPhysician
Smash Ace
k, this doesn't have anything to do with the argument though. The point still remains that the analogy doesn't fit; taking steroids is still completely different.
Can you explain what you mean? What is it that controllers don't do?
What are you talking about? You said this: "Steroids are banned so athletes have to work to build muscle mass, just as controller mods are banned so players have to work to get their controllers to respond as they want them to." And that is not why controller mods are banned. If it was, then what the heck are tournament directors going to do about people who simply buy a used controller to avoid having to break a new one in? Again this point is not being addressed.
ok so all long example post and views of this issue aside lol (more reading than a history class)
are these controllers that mana modded are banned now? because i know more than a few ppl in socal have them now and if so
is every controller gonna be checked at every tourney? or is that to the directors discretion and if some1 was using a modded controller example kira and some1 else lets say fabian said hes using one in the middle of the match is he automaticly dq'd?
so wats the answer to this whole mod issue and wats gonna happen is wat i wanna know lol
are these controllers that mana modded are banned now? because i know more than a few ppl in socal have them now and if so
is every controller gonna be checked at every tourney? or is that to the directors discretion and if some1 was using a modded controller example kira and some1 else lets say fabian said hes using one in the middle of the match is he automaticly dq'd?
so wats the answer to this whole mod issue and wats gonna happen is wat i wanna know lol
KoreanDJ111
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,149
Or it will feel like a piece of plastic.
Unless you can mod the controller so it functions EXACTLY as a conventionally broken-in controller would, it's not the same thing. Even if you could, this "mod" does more than just break the controller in, from what I've heard. After all, these new "super controllers" are the only reason DJ got so good. Manacloud can tell you all about that.
Also, how does the steroid analogy not fit?
A player breaks his controller. He buys a new one and "mods" it so he doesn't have to spend time breaking it in.
An athlete breaks his leg. He spends time in the hospital and his muscles atrophy considerably. He takes steroids so he doesn't have to spend time regaining the muscle mass he lost while in the hospital.
It's the same principle. In theory, the athlete could use steroids to build additional muscle mass (more than he originally had), but I still don't see how that refutes my argument.
EDIT: Dan gets jokes.
It is impossible/extremely tedious to enforce checking everyone's controller. Everyone's controller feels different anyway.
Another question to think about is "Are all the top players that use these 'special controllers' illegitimate now?" The answer is no.
Another question to think about is "Are all the top players that use these 'special controllers' illegitimate now?" The answer is no.
TheCatPhysician
Smash Ace
This would probably be where our misunderstanding is. Remember that all of what I'm saying is assuming that this is a mod that does nothing more than break in your controller. If it does more, then I agree with you on that.
Again, it's because I'm just assuming that this mod doesn't give any unfair advantage. Also, there's no other alternative to rebuilding that muscle; no other way to get around the wait. With controllers, like I said, people can already just buy used ones. Working out to build muscle mass is more comparable to actually practicing Smash. Taking a steroid is like using a short hop button mod - you get out of the work. Controllers being broken in just takes time, and if people are going to be saying that it's cheating to break in your controller with a mod (even though you can buy a used controller anyway) where is the line going to be drawn on how much of the work has to be yours? Are people going to get into arguments over "he let his friends use his controller too, they did some of the breaking in for him"? Of course not. That's ridiculous and we all know it doesn't matter. But the main point is, people can just buy used controllers, and there's no way to stop them. IF this hypothetical mod does nothing more than break in a controller, than it's no different, and only makes this option available to more people, which in fact makes it fairer.
Whether the mod actually does do more than just break in a controller is a completely different issue.
I hate to have needed to drag this out so far, so I hope we can just agree on this finally and move on to the more important issue: What exactly the mod is.
I can agree to that.
manacloud1
Smash Champion
hmm
when you keep referring to what i do as modding then it becomes a problem. I already told you what i do doesnt count as a mod. Thats why this thread is ridiculous in the first place. Its like you all have to see for yourself what i do so then you can say oh its not bad then this thread will die right? Well lets look at reality that wont happen. So keep being suspicious because you have nothing better to do but investigate something that doesnt exist.
Pretty much.
Oh. That's a shame.
Or you could just tell us what it does and everybody would get off your back. Nobody's asking a whole lot of you.
I've gotta hand it to you though; this is a brilliant marketing ploy you've got going here.
manacloud1
Smash Champion
lol
hows it possible to tell u what i do. You can only experience what it is i do with the controllers to know its not doing anything illegal or breaking the rules in smash.
Cort
Apple Head
Uh... This thread exists to remind people that using modding controllers has been banned in tournaments since the dawn of time. I don't know why you keep thinking it's all about you.
The simple fact that you won't reveal that what you're doing is "not counting as a mod" and that people like KDJ have already provided us pretty incriminating evidence that what you're doing is infact modding controllers.
I'm not sure how crystal clear your situation could get. The only argument you had to show against my quotes from KDJ was "well are you sure it isn't just his opinion". Next time I'll bring a turbo controller and wobble everyone perfectly to 999% until they eventually die of old age and when they acuse me of using a turbo controller I'll just ask them if they're sure I'm not using a regular controller.
manacloud1
Smash Champion
cort
if u knew nealdt and my discussion u would know clearly this is about me, why would nealdt right lately in the specific west coast blah blah blah. The truth and fact is it is about me. Else this thread would be in the tournament discussion and not just specifically pacific west. Plus your on the ec why are u talking in this thread? dont you have ec threads to ignite.
"I can't just tell you. You have to experience it."
Brilliant advertising. Simply brilliant.
Kanzaki
Smash Champion
Hum.. I don't think you're supposed to change any thing on a controller though, other then the way it looks :o And by doing what ever you do Mana, if it's more then changing the way it looks, it'll fall under some kind of mod.
manacloud1
Smash Champion
so tell me this
this brings me back to the point of what is a mod. You cannot pinpoint what people do as a mod if you cannot clearly tell me what is one. The term mod is too broad.
if i had a joystick pad on the c stick pad would that be modding? I know plenty of people that replace the c stick with a joystick and theyve been to mlg and even showing people. I personally use to have this and went to mlg and they just said wow u play with a wierd controller and i wasnt banned even though the no modding rule was enforced. What about wave birds arent those modded theres no cord. It responds faster cause its a signal and not a cord. blah blah.
this brings me back to the point of what is a mod. You cannot pinpoint what people do as a mod if you cannot clearly tell me what is one. The term mod is too broad.
SuperRad
Smash Master
wavebird controllers are stock. meaning that they arent moded at all. i think you are just proving that you have nothing really to say and you are just trying to divert attention away from yourself.
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
Shut up everyone.
This thread is pointless. Mana will defend against anything you all say and none of these arguments are valid due to the fact that no one person has a relative universal theory pertaining to the morality and definition of what modding is/accomplishes. And in terms of perspective to the bias nature that everyone has concerning this topic of modding and the justification for modding, no one person here will be able to convey, once again, a universal theorem adhering to the definition and competitive ethical concern for what modding is/does. So enough of this nonsense please.
This thread is pointless. Mana will defend against anything you all say and none of these arguments are valid due to the fact that no one person has a relative universal theory pertaining to the morality and definition of what modding is/accomplishes. And in terms of perspective to the bias nature that everyone has concerning this topic of modding and the justification for modding, no one person here will be able to convey, once again, a universal theorem adhering to the definition and competitive ethical concern for what modding is/does. So enough of this nonsense please.
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