Olimar Wish List: Ideas for the good captain for future patches

[steelguttey]

this may be an issue of definition. my idea of farming is throwing pikmin, plucking, throwing pikmin, plucking until you have an ideal lineup. you should be awarded for doing things right like hitting them or taking a stock. again, no solid ideas on how this would be put in.

 

[B.W.]

Its most likely not possible.

And it's still kind of agreed it's not the best idea.

 

[steelguttey]

set order is the worst idea, tho. just not healthy for him

 

[B.W.]

Still not sure how it's not healthy when it promotes productive farming, but we've had this conversation many times before.

We're not getting set order anyway.

 

[batistabus]

wait
you say you think farming isnt good in pm
then you suggest a set order of pikmin
that doesnt work

Ah. I misunderstood what farming was. I was just referring to the flower/bulb phase. My bad. I think farming is cool then.

anyway, the bud flower factor gives him really good power that isnt immediate. its good cause it gives him a good feel of when im top tier and when im **** tier. bud is brawl olimar, leaf is **** olimar, and flower is oplimar

I just don't think it has any place in a game that's trying to be very balanced and competitive. It's hard enough for players to keep track of the order of their Pikmin to begin with, and the leaf/bulb/flower is just another layer on top of that, resulting an absurd amount of possible combinations. It's not something that players are realistically going to be paying attention to, and they'll just end up getting RNG combos and followups.

his tether is fine really, suits his offstage game pretty well actually

I think tethers in general are a controversial subject, and the game would simply be better off with as few as them as possible. I think it just gives him an arbitrary weakness.

 

[steelguttey]

.

We're not getting set order anyway.

confirmed?

 

[B.W.]

Unless they changed it like this week, then yeah.

 

[robosteven]

@ batistabus , I think we want Olimar to work exactly the same way. Aside from obligatory bug fixes, everything you've mentioned seems to be the same that I want for the character.

Fingers crossed for the PMDT making smart decisions about Olimar.

 

[RelaxAlax]

We got anything on Olimar?

Hope he's more viable this time around, I really dig his playstyle as a contrast from my Ganon. Guess we'll know in a few heures.

 

[steelguttey]

couple of things were confirmed

20% on all pikmin, rng still working on being removed. theyre trying to find a proper way of removing rng that s possible to code (which hopefully deconfirms set order)

antannae glows the color of the first pikmin in the line

usmash juggles are harder, more priority on pikmin

 

[Ningildo]

couple of things were confirmed

20% on all pikmin, rng still working on being removed. theyre trying to find a proper way of removing rng that s possible to code (which hopefully deconfirms set order)

antannae glows the color of the first pikmin in the line

usmash juggles are harder, more priority on pikmin

On the latter, why? Is there more start/end lag? Is KB decreased?

I think you probably got that from videos and the like, but Usmash juggles > Uair juggles are hilarious and a big reason why I like this character and I'd like to know why one of Oli's saving graces got nerfed and/or harder to pull off.

On the flip side, we got better odds at getting purples all around, so there's that, I guess.

****ing hype is gonna kill me if this drags on.

 

[steelguttey]

cause its ****in ridiculous how he can juggle you to 80% off one of the longest throws in the game

idk the details i know its just hardee to do. still possible tho

 

[steelguttey]

3.5 olimar is weird

usmash got nerfed, yellows have quicker aerials, surprisingly his throws are nearly unchanged (i think his uthrow got nerfed?), pikmin took a big hit in stamina, he spawns with 2 pikmin after a stock, at the start of the game he has 4 pikmin, rng is still here but not bull**** stage rng which is fine i guess as long as they plan on removing it. also, antannae changes to color of pikmin in front which is ****ing SWEET

hes gonna be more punish based, but throwing pikmin seems really stupid and bad now

 

[B.W.]

I looked at the complete change log of Olimar and compared it with a lot of the old data of Olimar.

He is pretty nerfed in every which way. Yellows are still the most useless Pikmin. I feel bad for anyone who wants to stick to this character now.

 

[Ningildo]

Others
-Dash Attack hitboxes now properly tied to Olimar's body while he cartwheels forward.
-All hitlag and SDI modifiers normalized, and all shield damage removed from attacks.
-Olimar's antenna lights up to reflect with Pikmin is next in line.
-Pikmin elemental immunities are removed, but now can swim regardless of color.
-Olimar plucks 4 Pikmin during match entry animation. So note he won't have 4 during things like training mode.
-Olimar spawns a new stock with 2 Pikmin.
-Pikmin pluck frequency has been normalized to be equal chance for each of the five colors. Except on Home Run Contest, in which he'll only pluck purples.
-Pikmin Health reduced to emphasize conservative or liberal use of Pikmin tossing.
--Red 30 -> 14
--Ylw 30 -> 17
--Blu 40 -> 20
--Wht 14 -> 10
--Prp 50 -> 25

Just a small bit of the glorious change log. Nerf everything but Yellow based attacks, which get a small buff. The end result doesn't sound pretty. Maybe blues get reverted to brawl range grabs? Idk, didn't get to download 3.5 till now and a good deal of hype has died now.

**** that bolded part though. No, really, this makes it sound like all pikmin not dying in water is a good trade off for that slight edge in the pika/mario/luigi/etc MU. I mean, now Delfino is a decent stage, right?(I'm not even sure if this stage is allowed, so...)

The life of a low tier main, here I come :/

 

[B.W.]

Having less HP is the biggest blow of all. Most Pikmin die in 1 or 2 hits now. Side-B went from kind of situational to GG Pikmin.

Also Yellow attacking faster doesn't stop them from being the worst Pikmin I don' think. I'm going to be on Olimar for the next month or so to see what's really up, but I'm not happy currently.

Also, I hate the light.

 

[RelaxAlax]

He feels pretty great to me but that's just me playing against computers.

Lag off of grab so followups are slower.
Pikmin that fall off ledge hit opponents
Pikmin grab ledges more reliably

I see how well he goes from here, I'll stick with him for now.

 

[Virum]

To say that Olimar has been "nerfed in pretty much every way" is straight up objectively incorrect. Considering the overall nerfs across the roster this character, I can assure you, will fare better than previously. Alright so let's first address the areas overall in which he has been actually nerfed:

1) Pikmin durability being reduced drastically. His Pikmin in 3.02 basically never died via being attacked (barring whites of course), only dying due to going offstage or from Olimar himself dying. This meant that his Side B could potentially act as an instant pressure tool once it had latched and if you had spaced your Side B well, forcing your opponent into one of the three following situations:
- They take the damage, but of course that is unfavourable since you're taking damage (duh) and quite a bit especially if you've got more than one Pikmin latched onto you
- They shield so they don't take the hits from the Pikmin, but that makes them an easy target for a grab and in the case of 3.02 Olimar that could lead to an easy 60%+
- They could attack the Pikmin off but like for example 2 you can bait the attack and punish them in the same way.

However, now since your Pikmin is more likely to die from an attack you have to be more weary of using Side B. You can still use it to bait an attack but it acts as more of a double edged sword since you're likely to lose a Pikmin. However, saying that Side B is useless is like saying Smash 4 Olimar's Side B is useless (it isn't) and this Side B is a much better move due to the fact that you get much more of a reward off of it compared to that game.

2) The damage reductions he's received almost across that board barring on a couple of moves. This was done simply out of design. Olimar's 3.02 BnBs were incredibly easy for how much damage you could get off them. The fact that you could deal Ganon level damage starting from a fantastic long grab and essentially spamming USmash and aerials was absurd, especially since all his moves are also disjointed. His damage was toned down to be reasonable, there's simply nothing more too it.


I'd say these are his most major nerfs, however there are some buffs that simply cannot and should not be ignored:

1) The speed buff yellows received is big and to say that they're still not useful is stupid and clearly a testament to one not having spent enough time actually trying them out. On the contrary they're incredibly useful now as every single Pikmin move with yellows is now more safe and easier to combo. They're relatively low knockback allows them you to string from them at higher percents into moves such as BAir much more easily, offering Olimar better kill setups.

2) FSmash has been improved in every way. In 3.02 it was pretty awful but now it has a lot more utility due to being stronger and due to the fact that the hitboxes don't terminate until the Pikmin touches the ground. This allows for it to be an incredibly safe (and potentially very strong if you're using a red for example) tech chase option that covers everything barring the tech back. It can also be used to hit opponents offstage and if they're below and infront of you while you're on a platform. The former point, along with the almost universal nerf to recoveries, has made his solid edgeguarding game even better.

3) The knockback adjustments made to make it so that all Pikmin forms have knockback around that of budded Pikmin leads to Olimar being much less of a "snowball" character, offering a greater level of overall consistency while not compromising the overall reward he gains from flowing his Pikmin too much. Flowering Pikmin is still worthwhile, but flowered Pikmin are no longer completely absurd. Meanwhile leaf Pikmin are overall better.

4) Starting with 4 Pikmin and respawning with 2. The latter point in particular is incredibly useful as you now no longer have to waste any invincibility on plucking Pikmin, allowing you get straight back into the game.



I can understand that a bunch of people are going to be upset initially with the changes Olimar has received, but I genuinely believe they, in the grand scheme of things, help to improve and round off Olimar's design overall. Granted he's not perfect, and there are still match-ups that will give him a lot of trouble (spacies, Marth etc) but I believe him to be more of a contender this time around. I may or may not be wrong though. We'll have to give it some time.

 

[SpiderMad]

To say that Olimar has been "nerfed in pretty much every way" is straight up objectively incorrect. Considering the overall nerfs across the roster this character, I can assure you, will fare better than previously. Alright so let's first address the areas overall in which he has been actually nerfed:

1) Pikmin durability being reduced drastically. His Pikmin in 3.02 basically never died via being attacked (barring whites of course), only dying due to going offstage or from Olimar himself dying. This meant that his Side B could potentially act as an instant pressure tool once it had latched and if you had spaced your Side B well, forcing your opponent into one of the three following situations:
- They take the damage, but of course that is unfavourable since you're taking damage (duh) and quite a bit especially if you've got more than one Pikmin latched onto you
- They shield so they don't take the hits from the Pikmin, but that makes them an easy target for a grab and in the case of 3.02 Olimar that could lead to an easy 60%+
- They could attack the Pikmin off but like for example 2 you can bait the attack and punish them in the same way.

However, now since your Pikmin is more likely to die from an attack you have to be more weary of using Side B. You can still use it to bait an attack but it acts as more of a double edged sword since you're likely to lose a Pikmin. However, saying that Side B is useless is like saying Smash 4 Olimar's Side B is useless (it isn't) and this Side B is a much better move due to the fact that you get much more of a reward off of it compared to that game.

2) The damage reductions he's received almost across that board barring on a couple of moves. This was done simply out of design. Olimar's 3.02 BnBs were incredibly easy for how much damage you could get off them. The fact that you could deal Ganon level damage starting from a fantastic long grab and essentially spamming USmash and aerials was absurd, especially since all his moves are also disjointed. His damage was toned down to be reasonable, there's simply nothing more too it.


I'd say these are his most major nerfs, however there are some buffs that simply cannot and should not be ignored:

1) The speed buff yellows received is big and to say that they're still not useful is stupid and clearly a testament to one not having spent enough time actually trying them out. On the contrary they're incredibly useful now as every single Pikmin move with yellows is now more safe and easier to combo. They're relatively low knockback allows them you to string from them at higher percents into moves such as BAir much more easily, offering Olimar better kill setups.

2) FSmash has been improved in every way. In 3.02 it was pretty awful but now it has a lot more utility due to being stronger and due to the fact that the hitboxes don't terminate until the Pikmin touches the ground. This allows for it to be an incredibly safe (and potentially very strong if you're using a red for example) tech chase option that covers everything barring the tech back. It can also be used to hit opponents offstage and if they're below and infront of you while you're on a platform. The former point, along with the almost universal nerf to recoveries, has made his solid edgeguarding game even better.

3) The knockback adjustments made to make it so that all Pikmin forms have knockback around that of budded Pikmin leads to Olimar being much less of a "snowball" character, offering a greater level of overall consistency while not compromising the overall reward he gains from flowing his Pikmin too much. Flowering Pikmin is still worthwhile, but flowered Pikmin are no longer completely absurd. Meanwhile leaf Pikmin are overall better.

4) Starting with 4 Pikmin and respawning with 2. The latter point in particular is incredibly useful as you now no longer have to waste any invincibility on plucking Pikmin, allowing you get straight back into the game.



I can understand that a bunch of people are going to be upset initially with the changes Olimar has received, but I genuinely believe they, in the grand scheme of things, help to improve and round off Olimar's design overall. Granted he's not perfect, and there are still match-ups that will give him a lot of trouble (spacies, Marth etc) but I believe him to be more of a contender this time around. I may or may not be wrong though. We'll have to give it some time.

Damn, I want one of these for every character

 

[B.W.]

I played Olimar almost exclusively today for like 9 hours.

He's not really bad, but if you're learning to play him after playing him in 3.02 you're going to need to pretty much relearn him.

It's funny though because the knockback adjustments alongside the White Pikmin buffs, the Purple Pikmin range nerfs on throwing/grabbing stuff and the Yellow Pikmin's speed boosts actually help the Pikmin be a lot more different than how they were before. They're all very similar to each other in knockback, but their damage is still different, they all work better with different actions, but they're all good now, I don't feel like I need to throw Yellows away anymore.

I like that Pikmin have less health, but it's kind of funny to me that the whole reason is to make you want to use Side-B less, but honestly with the buffs to F-Smash, I find myself never wanting to use Side-B anyway unless it's White or Purple, because I can control space with F-Smash instead, and because the damage is pretty much the same across the board with Flowered Pikmin and Leaf Pikmin not being very different, I could care less about when my Pikmin die because I'm able to just pluck new ones and there's no such thing as a "bad Pikmin" anymore.

On top of all this Pikmin seem to stick to you a little better now instead of just scattering when you get hit and that's amazing. Recovery is still pretty good too.

If I had to point out anything that I feel got hit a little too hard, it's D-Throw. It was made a whole lot worse, with good reason, but it's incredibly hard to follow up after a properly DI'd D-Throw now, and a properly DI'd D-Throw was difficult to follow up with before.

Also guys, U-Smash combos still work they're just harder and even more character specific. You need to use U-Air earlier now to have more of an effect.

 

[steelguttey]

im gonna try him out more. maybe im being closed minded

or maybe hes just really ****ing bad

 

[batistabus]

@ robosteven sup

 

[-Coco-]

To say that Olimar has been "nerfed in pretty much every way" is straight up objectively incorrect. Considering the overall nerfs across the roster this character, I can assure you, will fare better than previously. Alright so let's first address the areas overall in which he has been actually nerfed:

1) Pikmin durability being reduced drastically. His Pikmin in 3.02 basically never died via being attacked (barring whites of course), only dying due to going offstage or from Olimar himself dying. This meant that his Side B could potentially act as an instant pressure tool once it had latched and if you had spaced your Side B well, forcing your opponent into one of the three following situations:
- They take the damage, but of course that is unfavourable since you're taking damage (duh) and quite a bit especially if you've got more than one Pikmin latched onto you
- They shield so they don't take the hits from the Pikmin, but that makes them an easy target for a grab and in the case of 3.02 Olimar that could lead to an easy 60%+
- They could attack the Pikmin off but like for example 2 you can bait the attack and punish them in the same way.

However, now since your Pikmin is more likely to die from an attack you have to be more weary of using Side B. You can still use it to bait an attack but it acts as more of a double edged sword since you're likely to lose a Pikmin. However, saying that Side B is useless is like saying Smash 4 Olimar's Side B is useless (it isn't) and this Side B is a much better move due to the fact that you get much more of a reward off of it compared to that game.

2) The damage reductions he's received almost across that board barring on a couple of moves. This was done simply out of design. Olimar's 3.02 BnBs were incredibly easy for how much damage you could get off them. The fact that you could deal Ganon level damage starting from a fantastic long grab and essentially spamming USmash and aerials was absurd, especially since all his moves are also disjointed. His damage was toned down to be reasonable, there's simply nothing more too it.


I'd say these are his most major nerfs, however there are some buffs that simply cannot and should not be ignored:

1) The speed buff yellows received is big and to say that they're still not useful is stupid and clearly a testament to one not having spent enough time actually trying them out. On the contrary they're incredibly useful now as every single Pikmin move with yellows is now more safe and easier to combo. They're relatively low knockback allows them you to string from them at higher percents into moves such as BAir much more easily, offering Olimar better kill setups.

2) FSmash has been improved in every way. In 3.02 it was pretty awful but now it has a lot more utility due to being stronger and due to the fact that the hitboxes don't terminate until the Pikmin touches the ground. This allows for it to be an incredibly safe (and potentially very strong if you're using a red for example) tech chase option that covers everything barring the tech back. It can also be used to hit opponents offstage and if they're below and infront of you while you're on a platform. The former point, along with the almost universal nerf to recoveries, has made his solid edgeguarding game even better.

3) The knockback adjustments made to make it so that all Pikmin forms have knockback around that of budded Pikmin leads to Olimar being much less of a "snowball" character, offering a greater level of overall consistency while not compromising the overall reward he gains from flowing his Pikmin too much. Flowering Pikmin is still worthwhile, but flowered Pikmin are no longer completely absurd. Meanwhile leaf Pikmin are overall better.

4) Starting with 4 Pikmin and respawning with 2. The latter point in particular is incredibly useful as you now no longer have to waste any invincibility on plucking Pikmin, allowing you get straight back into the game.



I can understand that a bunch of people are going to be upset initially with the changes Olimar has received, but I genuinely believe they, in the grand scheme of things, help to improve and round off Olimar's design overall. Granted he's not perfect, and there are still match-ups that will give him a lot of trouble (spacies, Marth etc) but I believe him to be more of a contender this time around. I may or may not be wrong though. We'll have to give it some time.

All of this sounds great, I'm looking forward to playing Olimar again, however I do have one question. What reason would there be to remove elemental resistance? I really felt like that was something unique to Olimar that matched the games from which he originated. On top of this I don't know how relevant all Pikmin being able to swim will be. Could you maybe provide insight on this?

 

[DD_]

Looking to switch things up in P:M and although this feedback isn't the best and i just read the other thread detailing all the nerfs, would now b a good time to start learning some olimar?

 

[Virum]

All of this sounds great, I'm looking forward to playing Olimar again, however I do have one question. What reason would there be to remove elemental resistance? I really felt like that was something unique to Olimar that matched the games from which he originated. On top of this I don't know how relevant all Pikmin being able to swim will be. Could you maybe provide insight on this?

It caused random skews in various match-ups. For instance, in 3.02 Yellows go from booty to incredibly useful against Pikachu because they just invalidate half of his moveset. And then you have Reds vs Mario that are able to block regular Mario's fireballs but not Doc's pills, leading to the only match-up where costume choice actually mattered.

 

[robosteven]

The nerf to his juggling was understandable and I don't mind it too much, starting with four Pikmin and respawning with two is super helpful, the antenna color change is really helpful, yellows are awesome now, and I agree with the Pikmin health decrease for the sake of Pikmin Throw alone.

...and yet, he's still the worst-designed character in the game. Not to focus only on his recovery, but jesus christ you guys made it worse. Olimar can't even recover anymore. It's a free kill if you're competent and get him offstage. He's still useable, and the differences between Pikmin types is a cool idea, and I've already done a whole spiel about the leaf-flower-bud gimmick, but jesus christ I can't play this character anymore. His grab follow-ups are way harder to do now (while characters like Fox and Marth get follow-ups for free still), his grab STILL has problems with trading with hits, and his recovery is even worse than before. The hitboxes being removed on Pikmin Chain was fine, but Pikmin still kill themselves sometimes. If you're going to make a character that gets horrendously punished for being offstage at all (like Falco), it would make sense to give him at least really good onstage game. Yeah, side-b helps. Yeah, his grab range is really good (except for Purples now, thanks). Yeah, the buff to yellows was great. However, unlike every character in the game, you have to pay as close attention to yourself as you have to to your opponent. Organization and planning moves and attacks based on Pikmin is a cool idea, but the fact that the order of Pikmin is still random doesn't go well with that idea. I thought moveset mechanics and character quirks were supposed to complement each other, and things like Pikmin AI + Pikmin Chain, drastic differences between Pikmin moves + random order for generated Pikmin, and his poop-tier recovery-game + okay onstage game doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I've never been all that great with articulating problems with things so forgive me if I'm rambling, but Olimar didn't get fixed. Yeah he got buffed, but what basically happened with Olimar was like what BP did with the Gulf spills. Just because the leak was fixed doesn't mean that the oil suddenly went away.

Just because Olimar got some buffs doesn't mean his problems (grab bugs, recovery relying on number of Pikmin near you) were addressed.

The things that worked for him in 3.0 were made worse, some things bad about him (mostly yellow Pikmin and f-smash) were made better, and I don't think he's a better-designed character because of it.

tl;dr I don't understand or agree with the direction that this character is going, seriously considering dropping him until the bugs get fixed. I like fighting other people in fighting games, not the game itself.

 

[B.W.]

Olimar still definitely has his bugs, and that's probably the thing that bothers me most. Pikmin falling apart when you use Up-B is still a thing, and so is people escaping from my grab as I try to throw them meaning they get reeled in and I throw right away and the throw animation comes out but the opponent escapes and is able to punish something that shouldn't have happened. It's kind of like Kirby's F-Throw and B-Throw in Melee.

Having worse recovery with fewer Pikmin works for me now because pretty much everyone got a hit in their recovery. I'd say Olimar matches other characters in that regard now. His other stuff is also not that bad, you just kind of have to adjust to it.

Olimar isn't bad though, honestly. He's kind of the same really.

 

[robosteven]

Having worse recovery with fewer Pikmin works for me now because pretty much everyone got a hit in their recovery. I'd say Olimar matches other characters in that regard now. His other stuff is also not that bad, you just kind of have to adjust to it.

Olimar isn't bad though, honestly. He's kind of the same really.

Tethers are by default bad now, but Oli's is even worse than a normal tether recover.

Having everyone else get garbage recoveries doesn't even out Olimar's recovery being horribly designed.

Sure he's not bad, but he's certainly not good either.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I've thought of a pure-RNG alternative which sounds kinda obvious, so it seems likely the BR has already thought of it, and there's a fair chance it can't be done because coding limitations, but I don't think I've seen it mentioned, and I'd hate for it to go untried if not.
It is: Olimar cannot pluck the same color twice in a row, and he cannot pluck the color that is currently leading. Thus he's still forced into some variety, but it's more predictable (1/3 - optionally 1/4 - instead of 1/5) and slightly controllable.

 

[steelguttey]

how about we just remove rng cause its really ****ing stupid

 

[RelaxAlax]

nah rng is great

 

[steelguttey]

pls dont even joke

 

[RelaxAlax]

Come on man it makes things more interesting. Let him be.

Smash 4 oli ain't even fun.

 

[steelguttey]

its not even more "interesting". this is a competitive videogame. rng is the opposite of competitive. we ban items for a reason.

good rng exists tho. game and watch is good rng because you are taking a risk and there is a chance of huge payout. but with olimar its kind of like "oh i have t play this way cause the wii decided i should go **** myself today". olimars whole character is based around pikmin and if its completely random then its just janky, not interesting.

plus smash 4 olimmar is bad for so many more reasons than not having rng. not only that but its in set order too which is really really bad.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I'm fine with RNG, just not the other issues he has, for obvious reasons.

And the whole thing about Melee and PM is acting off of instinct and reacting in situations you may not have been in. Reacting to random spawned Pikmin, to me, is cool. Being able to make something outta that is cool to me too. That's just my opinon, if they change him then whatever.

Have you played him in 3.5? He stinks lol

 

[steelguttey]

he sucks in 3.5 and pmdt members says that there will be a (soon-ish) balance patch where he will get some buffs. im excited personally because he is my favorite character conceptually.

and melee and pm is acting off instinct of things that you can prevent. you cant prevent your playstyle changing and it isnt rewarding at all and it isnt a fair concept.

 

[RelaxAlax]

You're not gonna convince to not like his RNG

I ain't saying it's good, just that I like it.

And really? That's good. I want to get back into it and have him as my side main again. Shell has spoken a few times and they know he isn't very good. Hopefully these buffs allow him to breath a bit.

 

[robosteven]

I just want his bugs fixed. I think his current RNG is fine, as long as it's even across the board (which it currently is with all types of Pikmin spawning at 20% chance of any color).

Whiffing grabs with purples still sucks though (even though their throws don't even combo or anything anyway).

 

[B.W.]

His 20% chance of every Pikmin is fine. If there's gonna be any kind of RNG that's the way to do it.

His bugs blow, but I think his tether recovery hurts him even more than his bugs and that's sad.

 

[StubbyDK]

I wish this character wasn't dead