Olimar Matchup Directory

[Dnyce]

I have to give you hella credit here. Like my post was entirely disrespectful and you come back with a solid response w/o raging... lol. I just... don't really have tolerance for random people coming in and saying their character is better than it is... and citing things that I know don't work =/ (by that I mean for the most part, which I tend to exaggerate, haha).

*cracks knuckles*

okay... here we go @.@

I admit, I haven't happened to come up against an Olimar in tournaments often. The only times it's happened was twice at MLG Orlando. I don't know who the olimars were; like I said in my last post, I've never faced a top olimar in a tournament, and I can't find their names now because neither them nor I placed anywhere near the top 15 or so in that tournament, and as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong, I might be looking in the wrong places) there's no list anymore of MLG Orlando winners except the top 15 or so.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=272333 - Here is a full results thread.

I've only played about three serious Olimar mains, one of which I thought was pretty good (Zazen, who was active in tourneys for about a year and then dropped out, definitely no one's heard of him), and one of which I thought was really good, though I don't know if people know of him. His name is Fearless and his username is "Hai Im Fearless." Don't know how well he places in general, but he's got credentials at least in my region...for what it's worth I'm pretty sure Draconoa (the one who started this MU thread).

Yeah, I remember playing Zazen... idk what to say about them though.
I do know fearless, his Olimar is pretty good despite one cringing detail for this match-up. Fearless is notorious for being an aggressive Olimar (just mention the word forward air to him and then snap a picture of his face lol). He does not seem to know how to camp effectively... which is crucial to the MU. He is known and thought well of those, it just had to be like one of the FEW aggro olimars XD

I'm continuously jumping. I stay as low to the ground as is possible, and ff whenever I feel safe, to then resume jumping, if the olimar doesn't approach.

Yeah, like my main problem with that was... Olimar LIVES to punish people's landings. So if you're slowly inching your way in, he's going to look for that moment to catch you.

Maybe our definition of "away from olimar" is different. I usually use this shbairing when the Olimar isn't close enough to run in and punish. If he is close enough to punish it, I'm going to have to be approaching Olimar instead (like you say), not just shbairing. I mentioned the shbairing strategy to fight camping only because some Dedede's whine that all olimar has to do to win is stand back and pikmin toss, which would never work.

So if you're walling bairs, and Olimar is throwing pikmin at a distance in which he could not punish your landing (which I would consider midrange tbh... describing such abstract terms usually helps to avoid confusion like before haha), how are you racking damage or getting in for a kill? You might have negated the camping, but you're not accomplishing much either .-.

...But even if olimar is close enough to run in at you while you're bairing, and try to throw you when you land, this situation isn't anything like a free grab for Olimar at all. Dedede's got five jumps, and if you're doing the shbairing thing I'm talking about, you never want to jump more than maybe, three times before you ff to the ground to start again...this way you'll always have at least two jumps left to keep Olimar guessing when you'll ff to the ground, in case he runs up on you. So Olimar's throw in this situation isn't guaranteed at all- Dedede just has to try and drop when Olimar doesn't expect it. If Olimar tries to usmash us to punish the bair hovering instead, even better - we can just airdodge down through the usmash into Olimar's body and buffer an utilt, or throw.

Yeah, I mean... I get what you're saying... but the way your saying it is what will get you flamed from people like me, lol. Basically your strategy revolves around landing when "Olimar doesn't expect it" which is really black and white way to explain things. It's why MU discussion is complicated, brawl on paper is just bad, lol.
I do have an issue with the last part of that though... cause like, I'm a HUGE fan of people aerial dodging into the ground and probably cap on this a LOT. aerial dodging into the ground against Olimar is possibly one of the MOST DISASTROUS ideas you could have. Sure you can try to aerial dodge the usmash... but all I have to do is click Z (I c-stick usmash, and pressing z with the c-stick charges it) and then you get boned by getting hit with a charged smash. The difference being, if Olimar goes for upsmash in that situation there's 1 of 3 (viable) things I see happening:
(1) DDD does a dair and hits Olimar since dair out-prioritizes usmash
(2) DDD does a bair and hits Olimar since bair out-prioritizes usmash (when spaced correctly
(3) DDD aerial dodges and Olimar hits with a charged usmash

Why will is always be a charged usmash? If Olimar goes for that, it's his best choice in respect to those options. Bair and dair will beat usmash, so regardless of charging Olimar gets hit (and since Olimar commits to a smash he already takes the extra knockback he would if he charged). The only reason Olimar would go for the usmash uncharged is if he thought he could get in before DDD reacts with an aerial. =/ like I said... brawl... terrible on paper sometimes, lol.

Maybe our definition of "up close" is different. Just casually looking online, I pull up this video of CO18 vs Hrnut (a good olimar, as far as I know, in my region), where Hrnut uses pikmin toss up close countless times. Let's see, he does it at 2:20, 2:58, 3:12, 3:36, 3:38, 3:42, 4:25, and 4:31, just from a cursory glance at the match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Iej-2D95OA

I just want to give you like... some really helpful advice in the future - no one will take that video serious =/
A video from 2008 rarely applies to metagame 2 years down the line.

Oh, and looking down your post I see that you respect Coney's Dedede, so maybe this vid will be more compelling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67oDQ_IZNU

Fino uses pikmin toss up close all the time in this match. It seems effective and safe enough to me. I can't tell how it worked out for him in the end, since for some reason the video always freezes for me at 1:59, but he seems to be conducting himself just fine, and in the comments Coney admits that the match went badly for him.

*successful name change was successful* =]
Umm... about that......... lol. I think Coney already said it, but I'm Fino. SH pikmin tossing close range has gotten more and more punished, I don't think people started making a big deal about it until a month or so after Columbus. A watched a bit of it though, times when I pikmin tossed close coney wasn't really in a position for immediate punishment, but that doesn't change the fact it was still pretty unsafe, XD

Uh...really? Really?

*fast forwards through the match with coney you posted*
Yeah... nvrm. vid stops at 1:59 for me, I was gunna go through and post the %s when we died. I completely played a flowchart match-up though, even then... coney's first stock was taken at 128% and mine at 108% (which was a gimp btw I could john about MLG tv lag... but a gimp is still a gimp XD) which doesn't seem to be too much of a difference considering the vast weight difference between the two.
The 128% kill was with a red pikmin usmash... purple kills a loooot earlier.

I can't even pull up the other vid that was posted <.< I wonder if youtube is just having problems or something =/

"First and most importantly, you need to establish the mindset that the pikmin are not real(except purple). Ignore all pikmin that are thrown at you. Don't shield them, don't try to get them off of you, not even the whites. Run right through them and go to olimar....Now that you've gotten to olimar, you can notice that he has 2 or less pikmin because they are all on your body." - TlocCPU quoted at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242613

I remember reading this the first time... I almost died of laughter. Like.. please do ignore pikmin. Having the mentality that they do not exist doesn't change the fact that you will take around 20% per second keeping them on you. =/

Dedede's doesn't need to get a kill move on Olimar, he's looking to gimp Olimar. If a kill move opportunity presents itself, all the better, but we don't need kill moves to win in this MU at all. (Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "kill move?") Again, let me quote a better player than me so that you take it more seriously:

"Once Olimar is off the stage, he should lose a stock. That should be your main goal every time. Don't let him come back! Bair all day long!" - Foursaken, from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242613

Like I mentioned before with coney's match (though being able to refer to everything would have been better). I had taken coney's first stock before he was able to gimp me at 108%. A move used to gimp is still a kill move imo, since the desired result is the same.

I mean... if Olimar was really that easy, why is he so high on the tier list? This is like... hardcore 2008 mentality - get Olimar off the stage and use attacks = profit. Knowing how to avoid getting gimped is one of the main obstacles you have to overcome playing Olimar. Sure it still happens, but saying "once olimar is off the stage, he should lose a stock" is just ignorant. Yeah, maybe he SHOULD lose a stock, but more often than not he won't (unless you're @nti... that ledge guarding is gross <.<).

What other time is grabbing relevant? Grabbing always happens up close. There's no such thing as a "long-range grab game." I'm confused.

I think you missed my point... ftilt is amazing against olimar, so I was surprised you were making claims that the match-up isn't that bad w/o mentioning his most viable move in the match-up.

Woops - you're right. (As a side note, I heard that there's a controller port that gives your grab the ability to always win in this situation. Is that true?) I had in mind the fact that olimar doesn't have grab armor like most (all?) other characters (only his pikmin do), which is a different idea entirely.

It's all good. A lot of players seem to think that... but I was told kprime tested grabs with a frame-by-frame hack. I could be wrong though, I haven't tested it myself and I continue to hear people swear they know it's determined by port... as well as people swear they know whether it's lower port or higher port. lol.
Also yes, Olimar lacks grab armor. Pivot grabbing usually alleviates that issue.

Grab stuff

Spoiler

But as far as Olimar's grab versus Dedede's is concerned, let me say more. I'm really passionate about the fact that Olimar's grab is overrated in this MU. Again, I'll quote a better player in hopes that you might incline a more sympathetic ear:

"Olimar's grab is flawed and I completely credit fiction for figuring it out. As of now, the only dedede's that know this are me fiction and teba, and now you. TURN YOUR VOLUME UP WHEN YOU FIGHT OLIMAR!. You know that little sound olimar makes when he grabs? You need instant tech skill reaction time to it, start practicing your reaction to that sound. You either need to spot dodge on reaction or roll around olimar on reaction. If you're closer to olimar you roll if you're farther you spot dodge. If you do it on reaction, dedede's roll is faster than the grab and his spot dodge lasts longer than the grab. This is an amazing flaw in Olimar's gameplay against dedede because it takes out his only close quarters advantage." - TlocCPU from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242613

You're perfectly capable of doing this, yeah. I can't speak for other Olimars though, but there are two primary situations I use grab for. The first is baiting an opponent, which doesn't really apply to the DDD MU (DDD's ftilt completely ***** this idea lol) and the other is for punishing. By that I mean, I would only use grab against DDD when he has already committed to an option. You could dash towards me, try to spot dodge the pivot grab (which will work if I space it incorrectly) and then get a free ftilt, but that's about as much as I know I guess.

To quote a better player than me:

It's called baiting. D3 jumps towards you with his back turned, you react by whistling, and the D3 waits until you whistle to backair. It is impossible to react to the animation of his backair. The only thing you can do is react to the movement of his body towards you and then whistle in anticipation of it.

I can just as easily say I'm baiting a bair to whistle as you say you're baiting a whistle to bair. It's a never ending argument.

I'm imagining that Olimar is recovering from below the ledge. If D3 ffbairs and Olimar whistles, Dedede can continue his ff and be below Olimar, in which case Dedede will be safe from retaliation, since Olimar needs to tether recover at this point (since if Olimar were to ff his whistle to match D3, he'd be too low to recover).

This is all assuming that Olimar hadn't saved his second jump and that tether takes abnormally longer that it should, lol.
FFbair above Olimar when he's off stage, and you will get uair'd for sure. The size of Olimar's uair on some pikmin is roughly the size of DDD, for reference to the hitbox size.
So let's assume you space it differently, and I whistle and I don't have a second jump... and you say DDD is safe from retaliation. My first reaction would be to tether to the edge and get back on stage. Successful recovery was successful.
But I'll go on ahead and assume the first scenario since FFing a whistle would make Olimar too low to recover and DDD would be safe (so you're assuming Olimar not only lost his second jump but has less than 4 pikmin, since a full pikmin tether reaches almost the blast zone on most stages and you're "safe from retaliation"), you would without a doubt get uair'd in that situation.

And if Olimar is recovering from above the stage and whistles the bair, then Dedede can...

"...jump BELOW olimar and uair! Olimar CANNOT whistle the whole uair and the last hit will send him further offstage allowing you to grab the edge and end the stock. Practice spacing the up air right so you can send him in the correct direction, you obviously don't want to send him back to the stage." - TlocCPU from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242613

Again assuming Olimar has lost his second jump, but okay. Olimar can whistle through uair if you jump beforehand and he FFs a whistle though, fyi ;o
Also this assumes Olimar can't DI (or SDI for that matter lol). DI'ing multihit moves is fairly easy, so assuming it'll knock Olimar off stage guaranteed it a bit silly.
Lastly, Olimar can tether the edge faster than DDD can jump + uair. Bair has more cool down than whistle, you still have FF frames, then a jump animation, and then uair start up. This would be a lot easier to figure out if DDD had frame data .-.

And this goes back to what I said about Olimar - because of his bad recovery and bad aerials compared to Dedede, it's very important for him to mind the middle of the stage. This restricts his options, and thus makes him more predictable than, say, mk would be at the edge of the stage. So, like I said, mindgames are easier for D3 in situations where Olimar's need to avoid the edge becomes relevant.

It's only relevant to the percent in which the other character would be most effective at gimping Olimar. If you watch the match between coney and I, you should see my bounce back and forth from edge to edge. I don't really want to be in the middle of the stage (though, by default of running away from DDD that's the direction I'm headed) because it cuts my camping in half (which makes DDD's job twice as easy).

This is why in the oli matchup thread on dedede's boards, Seibrik calls techchasing olimar the "easiest in the game." (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242613) - Why? It seems to be because the danger inherent in Olimar being near the edge gives him fewer safe options after being dthrown by D3 than other characters would have and makes him easier to techchase. To take Foursaken's words from that same thread:

"get to tech chasing. It's one of your strongest damage builders in this match up. Use common sense! If you down throw while both of you are near the center of the stage, chances are, they will roll away. If you down throw them towards the ledge, expect a roll back as most players don't want to be put in such a disadvantageous position. And what a horrid position this is for Olimar players! " - Foursaken from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242613

I... don't even know how to reply to this... like... so many assumptions and inferences that may make sense on paper, but... it doesn't work like you want it to.
It's like me saying "when you dthrow a computer with snake the cpu will always roll towards the edge, so when you play someone that isn't a cpu they will act the same." People are different, they react differently to being tech chased, there may be a favorable response... but that doesn't, by any means, mean it is "easy" or guaranteed.

It's been said that Olimar mains have it easy since nobody knows the MU. I don't know which region your from, but this could be true for your fights against D3, too. There aren't that many D3 mains anymore, and what few there are (notable exceptions being CO18 and, from what you say, Coney) that I know often give up on the Olimar MU.

Right now I see tmacc from time to time at tournaments, but other than that.. I don't practice against DDD much. I can't say that I'm incredibly experienced in the match-up, but the fact I've never lost to one before should say something. The biggest thing is, the DDD match-up is the epitome of playing a generic Olimar. It's so easy to auto-pilot in the match-up and still do well. Which leads me to this...

i'm definitely the best ddd at the olimar matchup and the matchup is definitely 6-4...they have the advantage for sure

I would say I'm just outside of "top olimar" status (which would be RB, Dabuz etc)... so you would have to be better than the best... to par a "good" olimar.

@.@ **** that was long. What's funny is this post is 7 word document pages long. Most of us would struggle to write that much for school XD

 

[Dabuz]

6-4 olimar's advantage, no more, because DDD does have options, asl ong as olimar mains still make even the tiniest of mistakes, DDD can get in and badly hurt olimar, olimar lacks a move that truly destroys DDD...no less, because there is no way DDD has a solid counter to everything olimar can do, he is forced to adjust tactics based on even the smallest margin of spacing, and sometimes DDD is trapped in a hopeless position



also, coney, your EC right? i wanna $5.00 mm you sometime

Spoiler

 

[Tmacc]

Fino is exactly right. He knows this match-up really well (some how? lol), and other than Coney, I think I'm the only D3 that hes played that's taken a game/comes close to him (but im coming for you Fino, watch out )

Regardless of the discussion, I think its unarguably in Olimar's favor, and probably about 6-4.

Even when we get through Olimar's camping game, we've taken damage (usually) getting to that point, probably staled uptilt (not THAT big a deal, since you wont be killing much with uptilt in the MU anyways), and given Olimar time to set up close-range baits. That makes it really rough for us, and we really hve to stay on our toes.

IMO, this MU is dependant upon D3 getting good aerial reads after the grab. It completely changes the flow of the match. Most of the time, I give damage in huge chunks in this matchup, while taking huge chunks back.

Five months ago, Fino/Cook/Hilt would 2/3 stock me, easy. However, since I've started talking to Coney more, I've learned that this match-up is VERY doable, even to the point where Fino complemented me last tournament and said he doesn't think D3 is *as* free as he used to think (haha), and he was impressed with what I'd done with the MU. Although I haven't beaten any very notable Olimar in tournament yet, I have indeed taken a game off Logic in a MM, and almost took game three. I think I've taken a game or two from Fino in MM (? I dont remember this, but he said I did haha), and either way, it's usually relatively close. Coney has beaten nearly every notable Olimar, and is by far the best D3 at the MU, as said.

The key to this MU for D3--inhale. You can condition the Olimar with bairs, and when he shields, it's a free inhale, which also puts him in the air/off stage, leading to more damage/a gimp. In all honesty, if D3 is above you at all, best option is probably just to roll away.

But yea, if you guys want a good example of an Olimar who knows the MU, I think Fino and Logic are the go to guys, honestly.

As I learn more about this MU, and since Fino and I talk more at tournies recently (he's much cooler than most people give him credit for, seriously, some people are dumb), I'm sure he and I will discuss it more.

tl;dr it's a hard MU, but if the D3 knows it well, it's very doable.

 

[Coney]

also, coney, your EC right? i wanna $5.00 mm you sometime

yeah, sure. i don't mm but i'll play a serious set with you and we can talk about the MU...i promise it's not as bad as you say, hahah

 

[Dabuz]

*rubs fingers* serious sets...=50% of my skill...fine...but jews are magically motivated by money...its impossible for us to play full potential otherwise ;-;


and trust me, it is as bad as i say, i've fought enough DDDs (including but not limited to atomsk irl, anti irl, co18 on wifi) to know a lot about the MU

 

[Cook]

Coney is way better at the matchup than Atomsk.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Coney is wa better at the matchup than any DDD, lol.

 

[Cook]

No doubt. I'm just saying, I wouldn't base my opinion of the matchup on playing it with Atomsk. Even I beat his DDD like every time, it's just not a matchup he is very good at. Like Tmacc said, inhale is really important.

 

[Ohmu]

ohmu, fino IS dnyce; he knows that set, we played @ mlg columbus

LOL - that's hilarious...! Well ... nice to meet you, fino! Here I am explaining your own set to you... ~shakes head~

at anything less than top level olimar wins very hard. but at the tippy-top, it's a soft counter, 6-4.

After watching some of your vids, I'll take your word for it~

As for MU terminology, it's been strange for me to hear "6-4" called a "soft" counter. I've heard it a bunch, but a 60% chance of losing, if the Olimar and I are at the same skill level, doesn't seem too soft... (That's what 6-4 means, right?) (hmm...but I can envision the response to this already ..."that's why you just make sure you're always the better player" ... lol)

Like my post was entirely disrespectful and you come back with a solid response w/o raging...

I can't take much credit...I was very bad at smash for a long time, so the only pros who could spend time on me at first without getting bored were ones who were particularly gratified by trash-talking me (~cough~ Razek ~cough~ lol. But it was all in good fun). So I've had thick skin for a while ;-)

Fearless is notorious for being an aggressive Olimar (just mention the word forward air to him and then snap a picture of his face lol).

Yeah, I love it. He doesn't pay Olimar, he plays "Battle-mar." (His own words, not mine, lol.)

_____


But yeah...your response to mine makes a lot of sense. (Particularly your thoughts on my edgeguarding scenario.) I do have an intuition that Dedede can hold his own in the MU, but it's difficult for me to make a convincing argument because I feel like I'd have to write an encyclopedia to even begin to be persuasive (e.g., when Olimar does X in situation Y, D3 can do Z...etc. etc. etc. with a million different variables). Not that it matters; knowing now that you're fino I'm sure you'd beat me if we played, so there's no point in me fighting it here. I wish I could put my money where my mouth is and go about doggedly trying to demonstrate the strength of my case "in the field," but...~sigh~...being in South Korea until July gives me no outlet. Hence my desperate random posting on Smashboards...I'm like a heroin addict in jail who tries to sate his addiction by drawing pictures of needles...or something.

But, I do have just one point of contention. I suggested that if I were bair hovering and olimar ran up under me to punish with usmash, I could airdodge to the ground and buffer an utilt. You responded:

I do have an issue with the last part of that though... cause like, I'm a HUGE fan of people aerial dodging into the ground and probably cap on this a LOT. aerial dodging into the ground against Olimar is possibly one of the MOST DISASTROUS ideas you could have. Sure you can try to aerial dodge the usmash... but all I have to do is click Z (I c-stick usmash, and pressing z with the c-stick charges it) and then you get boned by getting hit with a charged smash.

But Dedede's utilt has invincibility frames at the beginning, so if I buffered it to come out right after the airdodge, would't it protect me from your usmash? I don't remember if my utilt just "clinks" with you in that situation, or if I'm granted the hit; it's been a while since I've played so I forget. But I seem to recall relying on those invincibility frames a lot in that situation. (I guess it might be super armor and not invincibility frames, I don't remember.)

Oh yeah, I almost forgot -

**** that was long. What's funny is this post is 7 word document pages long. Most of us would struggle to write that much for school XD

Shucks, this makes me feel old... I graduated college less than a year ago, but it makes me worry to realize that I'm just going to keep getting farther and farther from the average age of smashers... :-( Every time I hear that someone quits, I die a little inside ... ~sigh~ I imagine a day when I'll be, like, 45 years old lurking on smashboards and hiding my age so people will still invite me to smashfests, lol.

 

[D Who?]

I got a lil Toon Link match up info. Here it is
Pikmin<Toonlink

 

[D Who?]

LOL - that's hilarious...! Well ... nice to meet you, fino! Here I am explaining your own set to you... ~shakes head~



After watching some of your vids, I'll take your word for it~

As for MU terminology, it's been strange for me to hear "6-4" called a "soft" counter. I've heard it a bunch, but a 60% chance of losing, if the Olimar and I are at the same skill level, doesn't seem too soft... (That's what 6-4 means, right?) (hmm...but I can envision the response to this already ..."that's why you just make sure you're always the better player" ... lol)



I can't take much credit...I was very bad at smash for a long time, so the only pros who could spend time on me at first without getting bored were ones who were particularly gratified by trash-talking me (~cough~ Razek ~cough~ lol. But it was all in good fun). So I've had thick skin for a while ;-)



Yeah, I love it. He doesn't pay Olimar, he plays "Battle-mar." (His own words, not mine, lol.)

_____


But yeah...your response to mine makes a lot of sense. (Particularly your thoughts on my edgeguarding scenario.) I do have an intuition that Dedede can hold his own in the MU, but it's difficult for me to make a convincing argument because I feel like I'd have to write an encyclopedia to even begin to be persuasive (e.g., when Olimar does X in situation Y, D3 can do Z...etc. etc. etc. with a million different variables). Not that it matters; knowing now that you're fino I'm sure you'd beat me if we played, so there's no point in me fighting it here. I wish I could put my money where my mouth is and go about doggedly trying to demonstrate the strength of my case "in the field," but...~sigh~...being in South Korea until July gives me no outlet. Hence my desperate random posting on Smashboards...I'm like a heroin addict in jail who tries to sate his addiction by drawing pictures of needles...or something.

But, I do have just one point of contention. I suggested that if I were bair hovering and olimar ran up under me to punish with usmash, I could airdodge to the ground and buffer an utilt. You responded:



But Dedede's utilt has invincibility frames at the beginning, so if I buffered it to come out right after the airdodge, would't it protect me from your usmash? I don't remember if my utilt just "clinks" with you in that situation, or if I'm granted the hit; it's been a while since I've played so I forget. But I seem to recall relying on those invincibility frames a lot in that situation. (I guess it might be super armor and not invincibility frames, I don't remember.)

Oh yeah, I almost forgot -



Shucks, this makes me feel old... I graduated college less than a year ago, but it makes me worry to realize that I'm just going to keep getting farther and farther from the average age of smashers... :-( Every time I hear that someone quits, I die a little inside ... ~sigh~ I imagine a day when I'll be, like, 45 years old lurking on smashboards and hiding my age so people will still invite me to smashfests, lol.

Bro, just saying, you have a very optimistic opinion of the world. Chill lol. Lolimar ***** all! Except for Ganon... Hard counter

 

[Dnyce]

But Dedede's utilt has invincibility frames at the beginning, so if I buffered it to come out right after the airdodge, would't it protect me from your usmash? I don't remember if my utilt just "clinks" with you in that situation, or if I'm granted the hit; it's been a while since I've played so I forget. But I seem to recall relying on those invincibility frames a lot in that situation. (I guess it might be super armor and not invincibility frames, I don't remember.)

Even if you land during your invincibility, the frame you touch the ground invincibility ends and you have landing lag (doubled if you FF'd your landing) and then however many frames until your utilt gets invulnerability.
A reason why it's so effective to abuse this with Olimar is his upsmash lasts 24 frames, so it's not incredibly hard to time, lol.

I got a lil Toon Link match up info. Here it is
Pikmin<Toonlink

Cool Story Bro

Bro, just saying, you have a very optimistic opinion of the world. Chill lol. Lolimar ***** all! Except for Ganon... Hard counter

*reports*

 

[GimR]

How to beat the Blizzard wall

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7898801#post7898801

Captain Olimar is being called to the Sinnoh region of the world of Pokemon to explore Iron Island and to explain his secrets to fighting the native Lucario's while being there.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I hate fourth gen.

 

[Jane]

you gotta admit though, the seperation of physical and special attacks was much needed

 

[DtJ Hilt]

No! It ****ing made it as offensive as **** and that's what ruined it imo. It made sense, but it ruined what strategy elements it had and limted things far, far too much. Fifth gen is fixing that, though. Dramatically, haha.

 

[Blissard]

you gotta admit though, the seperation of physical and special attacks was much needed

Agree with Jane here. Pokemon like Vaporeon who only had Special weaknesses and a ****-load of Special Bulk were too safe before the seperation.

I blame priority attack inflation and stealth rock.

Oh, and LO and Choice Specs/Scarf.

Edit: But from what I've played so far, 5th Gen just seems more offensive than 4th Gen to me. Shandera sweeps are everywhere, as is Shell Smash.

 

[Jane]

No! It ****ing made it as offensive as **** and that's what ruined it imo. It made sense, but it ruined what strategy elements it had and limted things far, far too much. Fifth gen is fixing that, though. Dramatically, haha.

hmm, well 3rd gen was the generation i knew the least about so im not sure how, but ill take your word for it haha.

how is 5th gen fixing it though?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Agree with Jane here. Pokemon like Vaporeon who only had Special weaknesses and a ****-load of Special Bulk were too safe before the seperation.

You have it backwards, lol. That's why third gen was good. Because it wasn't about having a weakness for everything on one or two pokemon, but making use of your entire team. Games in third gen lasted a long while because there was more strategy in the long run, as compared to short term strategy that won you the game fast. If you like that, awesome. Couldn't stand constant games full of sweepers, though. Got boring so fast.

I blame priority attack inflation and stealth rock.

Yes and yes.

Edit: But from what I've played so far, 5th Gen just seems more offensive than 4th Gen to me. Shandera sweeps are everywhere, as is Shell Smash.

Offensive and wrecklessly offensive are two different things. There are a lot of counters to Shandera. It's mostly a revenge killer but can **** up a lot of teams. 5th gen is not as offensive as fourth gen, but it still is offensive. There's a lot more strategy involved, both in team building and within games. It feels more like third gen.

hmm, well 3rd gen was the generation i knew the least about so im not sure how, but ill take your word for it haha.

how is 5th gen fixing it though?

By adding diversity to different teams/themes (weather teams are doable now, and actually pretty damn good), walls that don't go down in two hits and actually compliment each other really, really well. Stealth rock isn't as big of a deal and has good ways to get around (magic coat is so sexy now). Evolution stone is the greatest thing ever and allows a lot of previously outshined pokemon to become GREAT walls (porygon2/dusclops). New abilities on most everyone make a lot of things more usable and add more strategy.

It basically makes the game more diverse and stuff. Like the perfect mix of the best of third and fourth gen XD

 

[Jane]

i see. well i cant wait! (i refuse to play online sims until B/W is officially released here :3)

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Haha that's a shame, PO's really fun.

 

[Blissard]

Hilt tries to wash us all with his propaganda. But Jane, you shoouulllddd doooo PO!!!

Also, this should be the new social, since our current one sucks balls.

 

[wwwilliam0024]

Today I was at a tourney, took out a ROB, but then we met again in losers and he beated me.

I got so mad, because it came to a point i couldnt do anything against him. I need tips on ROB. T-T

4th place sucks

 

[DtJ Hilt]

What about ROB is giving you problems? What stages were you playing on?

 

[wwwilliam0024]

I won my matches on Battlefield, he picked it again and i 2-0 him.

Then in Loosers i won one in Smashville, then he took it back on Smashville once more, and finishes me on Battlefield again.

I was under pressure, so i did lots of mistakes, but the fact that im not very experienced with the MU makes it worst.

The thing is:

Match started i was camping like the Best, Pikmin throw, avoiding lasers and gyros, good everything going according to plan, now the thing is, the KO.

Once he was on decent % to KO, i counldnt get close to him His Ftilt is crazy and Pivot grabs just couldnt reach him, i managed to KO him only when he made an error like dodgin and rolling. But thats not really the problem.

on my last stock, i dont know if it was me under pressure or something, but i just couldnt get back on the stage, i was on my edge grabbing, i had high % so all my moves were slow, i climbed with A, he grabbed me and threw me out again, i grabbed again.... went p with a Roll, same grab and threw me, tried jumping with a dodge, and still no progress, jumped with an attack, he just Bair'd or Ftilt....

Jesus it was annoying.. Im so unnexperienced with the damn ROBOT..

 

[DtJ Hilt]

ROB is good at juggling Olimar, actually. So it's not surprising that that happened if you don't know the matchup that well. But you should never be ledge attacking unless it's a surprise. Especially if you're above 100%.

Don't search for a kill. It'll come to you. Just camp. Only camp. When Rob puts himself in a position to get killed, then kill him. Until then, your camp game completely shuts him down. Stick to that.

Don't fight Rob on Smashville. That's a bad choice. Stick to stuff with good platforms. Smashville and FD are bad ideas. Battlefield is good. Otherstages with good platforms are also good. Any specific questions on something to deal with?

 

[Dabuz]

4 rob jsut sheilld, smxh-sidev pivotstuf, alsaaaaa ur rols n stuggs safe, btyw upa thorugh ledgtes cuz ROn can]t punish thar well

 

[Dnyce]

Don't try to kill rob until he's in the air.

Also...

Rob's shield is ****ing terrible, if you've done ANY thing to his shield, pikmin toss + nair will shield poke (and then you get your upsmash)
The latch from the pikmin toss actually pushes the shield JUST enough so that you can poke with nair. 100% of Robs don't treat oli's nair like nado, so it'll poke until they start angling their shield.

Rob is a worthless character though, so I doubt they'll ever learn / advance

try to get his gyro and then go back to camping. it cuts his ability to camp in half and makes him think he has to approach to get his gyro back (or something like that, **** if I know). Just play absurdly safe and run away and camp, then use they gyro in one of those situations where olimar usually doesn't win by himself.

Purple pikmin toss combos into gyro throw (which CAN lead into a white pikmin toss at certain percents / DI... just assume if Rob gets hit away start mashin side B)

usmash goes through his nair if that helps

Lastly, if you wanna take the time to learn it, you can DI is dsmash so that you pop right above him for a nair to smash

 

[wwwilliam0024]

This is all good! :D

Yes i was about to ask about that annoying *** Dsmash and Dodge.

This happened to me, after he came and rushed in on me, he Dodged like 2 times or so, and pretty much dodged everything i did (smash,grab). Im asuming Pivot grab would be a wise choice in this case?

I knew i could DI, but it has been such a long time that i have fought a ROB so.. :S

WOW knowing that i could UPSMASH that F****** NAIR makes me so happy, me always running away avoiding that BS... ill never forget this one.

What about Bair?? Any attack of ours can break through it?? And what would be a wise way of getting on the stage if you are grabbing on the edge with high %??

 

[DtJ Hilt]

There's no point in trying to break through bair. It doesn't last that long. Just avoid it, it's not that good unless you're in a situation in which you're vulnerable to it, so don't be vulnerable. And yeah, punish dsmash whenever you shield it. Sometimes ROBs will catch on and start grabbing after spot dodges if they know you're going to shield, but you can hurt ROB a lot after his dsmash if you shield it.

 

[wwwilliam0024]

I know i can Nair, Upsmash after his Dsmash..

Hmmm well all i need is some practice now.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

You can shield grab it, too.

 

[wwwilliam0024]

Ok! Shield grab, Nair and Usmash. Does the Usmash have to be Oos??

Also i think Utilt is good at punishing his Aerial/ground dodges.

If im not mistaken i recall beating his Ftilt with our Ftilt.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

It's best if it is, but I'm pretty sure you can usmash out of a shield drop. But there's no reason to do that instead of usmash oos. Dsmash on our shield is super laggy. Dsmash can even punish it, iirc. But I usually wouldn't do that unless I"m facing the wrong way, and wouldn't be able to grab or usmash him. Don't try to beat his ftilt with our ftilt, it's not fast enough to react to, lol. Just stay out of ftilt range.

 

[wwwilliam0024]

thx baby

 

[wwwilliam0024]

Any one can give me a hand on the Mario MU???

pretty much the basic things besides throwing pikmins..

 

[Dabuz]

never jump, generically camp, don't pivot grab fireball approaches, instead shield them then JC US OOS or shield grab depending on mario's momentum, every other approach can be beaten with a mixup of short hop upair, pivot grab, and shielding then punishing.

Mario punishes olimar badly for mis-spacing and approaching.

If sent offstage, wait until mario does something before using your second jump and up-b, because he gimps olimar really well for doing either of these early, if he gets above you, upair, if hes next to you, bair or whistle (because hes gonna cape or bair/ fair), if he is at an angle, whistle, fastfall, or up-b

mix-up landings with all your options, mario is good at keeping olimar juggled with decent reads and reactions

don't try to out range mario's attacks unless you have yellow pikmin or he does a fsmash, because his attacks beat pikmin, instead, just grab a lot in this MU

your fair is very good against mario

mario's kill moves on stage are upsmash and sweetspot fsmash




i haven't played MU in a while, so i don't have anything else to add

 

[Dnyce]

never jump, generically camp, don't pivot grab fireball approaches, instead shield them then JC US OOS or shield grab depending on mario's momentum, every other approach can be beaten with a mixup of short hop upair, pivot grab, and shielding then punishing.

Mario punishes olimar badly for mis-spacing and approaching.

If sent offstage, wait until mario does something before using your second jump and up-b, because he gimps olimar really well for doing either of these early, if he gets above you, upair, if hes next to you, bair or whistle (because hes gonna cape or bair/ fair), if he is at an angle, whistle, fastfall, or up-b

mix-up landings with all your options, mario is good at keeping olimar juggled with decent reads and reactions

don't try to out range mario's attacks unless you have yellow pikmin or he does a fsmash, because his attacks beat pikmin, instead, just grab a lot in this MU

your fair is very good against mario

mario's kill moves on stage are upsmash and sweetspot fsmash




i haven't played MU in a while, so i don't have anything else to add

tl;dr

Throw pikmin until you can forward smash or grab.


Also watch out for mario's new ohko

 

[wwwilliam0024]

Also watch out for mario's new ohko

Watch out for wat?