Oh no The Mario melee thread is almost dead

[condemned_soul]

WHY is everyone leaving the mario melee discussion. we need to revive it . Mario should never get old in melee...MARIO FTW

 

[lordvaati]

**** right! Mario needs more love.

 

[Vulcan55]

Why?
Cuz Mario's garbage.
Doc ftw!!
jk
I asked Eggz to teach me how to play Mario. Hopefully he will next time I see him.

 

[Mass]

I'm also going to try to play Mario.

 

[TresChikon]

Texaco!

Taunt is the best tactic ever

 

[condemned_soul]

Mario cant lose his melee thread. Mario should have his own part on smashboards lol

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

lol wow, it's ok tho, Mario is still FTW. Even in Brawl. Melee > Brawl

 

[condemned_soul]

well i still want the Mario melee boards to still be around. its hard to find mario mainers at is it. Well i guess there is nothing to do but play melee mario in silence.....

 

[j3ly]

yeaah i have no internet for 4 days any now there are more mario enthusiasts!!
mario is an excellent character, and i think one of the best characters to base you style on. we all got really lucky we went for the mario

 

[condemned_soul]

yeah me taking up marth was one of the best I ever did. Even though i used to main Marth lol

 

[JUDGE]

mario is awesome^^
don't worry soul^^ i'll be there for you when every one is leaving lolololololol x'DD

 

[derfleurer]

I may not main Mario, but I use him (and CF) almost exclusively in friendlies. Way too much fun imo. =p

 

[ChivalRuse]

I may not main Mario, but I use him (and CF) almost exclusively in friendlies. Way too much fun imo. =p

Yea Mario's uber fun in friendlies. The only problem is I usually get ***** because I can't really make myself play him seriously.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why?
Cuz Mario's garbage.
Doc ftw!!

l21f1f1f

mario is more combo-friendly than doc and has a long f-smash therefore he is a better friendlies character

 

[condemned_soul]

i have to agree and plus i like the fact the mario spike instead of knocking them in the air like doc. It may seem that i like mario more then doc for small simple reason but i still play with doc sometimes.

 

[derfleurer]

Aaaaaaaaaand he can wall jump. Auto-win.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea; Doc is awkward for me. I prefer Mario for easy combos and his sexy fsmash.

 

[VGmasta]

Yeah, I have been neglecting Mario since I ran into Dr Mario. Mario was my starting character in Melee. But then I discovered Dr. Mario's hitbox for the cape and his Star Punch (F-air) and I felt more confident about landing KOs with Doc over Mario. But, I'll start posting in this thread just to help keep the thread alive.

Mario is a decent character who I'd probably main if there were no Dr Mario in this game. His combo speed is so much faster than doc, (and I've played against Green Mario vs my Dr Mario, so I know)! And that F-smash has broken distance compared to Doc's F-smash. Mario's so much floater and sometimes lives forever, (Green Mario wouldn't die!!!) LOL! And his Spike Punch (f-air) is the best looking spike in the game IMO!

So yeah, I'll be postin' around here! But Dr. Mario is still gonna be my favorite!

 

[strawhats]

My mario has gotten **** loads faster after practicing for nearly 15 hours straight. My dr. mario has helped me in the WD department. Now when i look at the end game statistics. I reach like 270 in the speed dept. Mario will always be my favorite. Even though im maining marth nowadays

 

[soma ghost]

I got a question. I've been trying to find another character to main and I like Mario. But I also tried Dr.Mario and I don't know what makes him better. His reach is much shorter and his cape doesn't do jack for his return. I like Mario better.

 

[strawhats]

Dr. Mario has better matchup such as his matchups against spacies and his up recovery has more vertical lift if u know what I mean. His downfall is his lack of speed, which wavedashing makes up for and he is alot heavier making his recovery alot trickier. He also does not have the ability to wall jump. I personally like playing mario on YS because I can gimp people at the bottom of the stage ad di to recovery by using the wall jump> up glitch if necessary. Doc cant do that plus his f-smash reach is not as long as mario's. Dr. Mario requires adequate spacing. But Doc has a chance in matchups where mario usually fails even at the highest level of play.

 

[condemned_soul]

Dr. Mario has better matchup such as his matchups against spacies and his up recovery has more vertical lift if u know what I mean. His downfall is his lack of speed, which wavedashing makes up for and he is alot heavier making his recovery alot trickier. He also does not have the ability to wall jump. I personally like playing mario on YS because I can gimp people at the bottom of the stage ad di to recovery by using the wall jump> up glitch if necessary. Doc cant do that plus his f-smash reach is not as long as mario's. Dr. Mario requires adequate spacing. But Doc has a chance in matchups where mario usually fails even at the highest level of play.

i also like mario U-air combos that usually ends with F-smash. i also like the fact that when mario is on the ledge and you tap back twice, he will wall jump and he keeps the other jump to get back on stage. In my opinion Doc's Down+B move is not that good idea to use whe trying to recover. the slightest slip up and you going down. On the other hand i do like the projectile better. I also like his jab combo which can be DI'ed.

I practice that Up+B cancel walljump on four side to get a good grasp on it. Its pretty epic

 

[soma ghost]

You guys are making Mario sound better, which is what it seems like to me too but apparently not according to the tier list and the fact that Dr. always places better in tourneys.

 

[VGmasta]

Dr. Mario has better matchup such as his matchups against spacies and his up recovery has more vertical lift if u know what I mean. His downfall is his lack of speed, which wavedashing makes up for and he is alot heavier making his recovery alot trickier. He also does not have the ability to wall jump. I personally like playing mario on YS because I can gimp people at the bottom of the stage ad di to recovery by using the wall jump> up glitch if necessary. Doc cant do that plus his f-smash reach is not as long as mario's. Dr. Mario requires adequate spacing. But Doc has a chance in matchups where mario usually fails even at the highest level of play.

Well said, strawhats!

Dr. Mario isn't necessarily better, but his advantages over Mario are easy to exploit against those high tiers used in tournament matches. The cape is a big deal. Although the cape is almost an extra jump for Mario, The hitbox for Dr. Mario's cape is a bit larger. That makes it a ton easier to edgeguard Falco and Foxes and other characters in general. Mario is floatier than Dr. Mario, which can be better for recovery. But Doc's ability to fall faster makes edgeguarding a bit easier, because you can cover high and fall fast enough to go low in case your opponent goes otherwise.

And then there's the projectile. Doc's fresh pill deals 8% damage while Mario's fresh fireballs deal 6%! Mario's longer ranged projectile is decent for waking up opponents from far or stopping opponent from recovering to the stage in certain situations. Doc's pill has shorter range than the fireball, but still has about the same speed. But most importantly, the pill fall much harder than the weightless fireball. This sets up a lot of approaches for Dr. Mario, especially since he falls faster than Mario.

Just checkout Smashmac's The Doctor's Checkup video; it does a good job of showing ways to pill rush opponents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qhEx3zKE

O yeah, another crucial thing! Jump-canceling grabs is extremely helpful in chaingrabbing. Mario's grab range is EMBARASSINGLY shorter than Doc's grab range, which is a huge deal since chaingrabbing can make or break a stock! It makes landing a grab against tough characters like Captain Falcon and Falco a bigger payoff!

Dr. Mario F-air guarantees a Star KO at more or less around 100% (unless you're Captain Falcon)! Mario's F-air only kills if you manage to spike your opponent offstage or combo the F-air into something that will knock your opponent off.

Because of such differences, Dr. Mario is the higher tier! This is why I switched from Mario to Dr. Mario to begin with!

 

[Dogysamich]

Oh my god there's so much wrong infomation in the past few days it's comical

-post-

First off, mario actually has the better matchups vs high/top tiers than Doc does. Mario actually has some good options vs Marth, Sheik, and Falcon, but suffers some of the same problems most of the cast does vs jiggs, which is all opposite for doc, ironically.

The only times doc is slower than mario is
1) l cancel recovery frames
-All of mario's aerials recover 1 or 2 frames faster than doc's
2) Jab combo
-Mario's jab combo is actually a legit, viable mixup (because of it's speed). Doc's winds up being a parlor trick in mixup.

You say Doc has to space like mario doesnt. Mario has to space his f.smash or else he's actually going to sour spot it, but he's got more leeway on his fireball spacing because of their bounce properties.

-post-

Doc's u.air juggles can end in f.smash, and they normally do (really depends on what height you start the juggle, if they have a DJ, etc etc). Mario pretty much HAS to end it with a f.smash or a nair.

Mario having a doraki walljump is pretty useful. ANYBODY having a DWJ is useful.

Doc and Mario's tornado recovery is exactly the same.

Pills vs Fireball being better is strictly opinion, although it's easy to say pills are a better defensive projectile and fireballs are a better offensive projectile.

-super post-/quote]
First, the cape being larger isnt a big deal since larger means it has the upper and mid hitboxes.

Gif of mario and doc cape hitboxes

It really only effects if you're caping something from above, but that's like what? Ganon and capfal, if anything. And even then, the lower hitbox is still going to catch them.

__

Second, Mario is not lighter than Doc. Look up average falling speed, falling speed, weight, whatever you want, they're going to be in the same tier every time

Realistically, Mario has a better edgeguard game than doc because Mario can safely cover higher than doc with cape -> DJ.

__

Next point is actually true (and something I actually didnt know), Mario's fireballs do indeed have more range than Doc's pills. However, Mario's fairballs are notably faster than Doc's pills.

__

Grab range? Exactly the same. You can check the m2k statlist again. Character model wise (height, limb length, etc), Mario and Doc are exactly the same. It's not the same as comparing Mario/Doc to Luigi (where Luigi's added height causes alot of his moves to get ducked by kirby, and some by jiggs, lol)

__

Doc's f.air doesnt guarentee kills at 100% unless a dunk + terribad DI is involved. Mario doesnt look to kill with fair anyway, it's for combos (and it's a D*** GOOD combo starter.)

___

All of that considered, the only reason why Doc is higher than Mario on the tierlist is because of how the smash community does tiers; which is based off of tourney results.

You probably can name like, 10 good, bracket-making docs off the top of your head, but you'll be hard pressed to do that for mario.

It really just comes down to preference. In all honesty, I find it easier to believe (and prove) Mario is better than Doc.

 

[VGmasta]

What?! Grab range the same?! Heck no! I've tried chaingrabbing with regular Mario and he sucks at it compared to Doc! And those fireballs can't be that much faster. And even if they were, opponents catch on to them before racking very much damage. At least with the pills, you can do a quick full hop turn around pill throw and it will probably hit grounded opponents who don't expect it. But the fireball kinda goes above them. So, you can actually pill camp with Doc. But no one camps with fire (lol).

The combo/SHHFLing options is the only thing I can agree with there. Mario is definitely the better combo man. And yeah the sour spot is lame but true! And with the exception of Capt. Falcon, Ganondorf, DK, and Bowser, what characters won't die from Doc's F-air without PERFECT DI if there are already at 100% (that means they are at 116% afterwards). Ok maybe 115% is gauranteed F-air KO!

Maybe Mario has the better potential, but I find it harder to kill high tiers as Mario. You have to challenge the high tiers attacks up close to often without the assistance of the pill as Mario. And the high tiers outrange Doc and Mario in priority and range. So who's gonna be successful head up again falco or falcon with short range aerials and a floaty approach?! It takes to many mindgames to get inside. The tournament results are what they are because Mario has to approach riskier than Doc does.

 

[Dogysamich]

What?! Grab range the same?! Heck no! I've tried chaingrabbing with regular Mario and he sucks at it compared to Doc!

-sigh-

Grabbing Range (relative approximations)

1) Samus
2) Link
3) Young Link
4) Marth
5) Roy
6) Yoshi
7) Kirby
8) Sheik
9) Zelda
10) Falco
11) Jigglypuff
12) Mewtwo
13) Peach
14) Fox
15) Luigi
16) DK
17) Ice Climbers
18) Mr. Game & Watch
19) Ganondorf
20) Captain Falcon
21-22) Dr. Mario / Mario
23) Bowser
24) Pichu
25) Ness
26) Pikachu

Credits: MaskedMarth and myself for making this list

_____

Running Speed

a ">" means that the character to the left of the ">" ACCELERATES to his/her top speed QUICKER than the character to the right of the ">"

a "=" means the two or three characters between the "=" have the same exact acceleration.

Note: Acceleration was measured with the BUNNY HOOD on, no matter how small and impossible-to-tell the difference (as long as one of my 10000 tests showed a difference than I put the difference down in this list)

1) Captain Falcon
2) Fox
3-5) Sheik > Pikachu > Marth
6) Pichu
7-10) Young Link > Roy > Yoshi > DK
11-15) Falco > Dr. Mario = Mario > Mr. Game & Watch > Bowser
16-20) Samus > Kirby = Mewtwo > Ice Climbers > Ness
21) Ganondorf
22) Luigi
23-24) Link > Peach
25-26) Jigglypuff > Zelda

Walking Speed

a ">" means that the character to the left of the ">" ACCELERATES to his/her top speed QUICKER than the character to the right of the ">"

a "=" means the two or three characters between the "=" have the same exact acceleration.

1-2) Fox > Marth
3) Falco
4-5) Pichu = Pikachu
6-10) Link = Sheik = Young Link > DK > Roy
11) Yoshi
12-15) Dr. Mario = Luigi = Mario > Mr. Game & Watch
16-17) Mewtwo = Samus
18) Ice Climbers
19-21) Peach > Captain Falcon > Kirby
22) Ness
23) Ganondorf
24-25) Zelda > Jigglypuff
26) Bowser

-------------------------------------
Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 7-8
-------------------------------------
Running grab

Total: 40
Grab: 11-12

-------------------------------------
Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 7-8
-------------------------------------
Running grab

Total: 40
Grab: 11-12

Any other variable you can possibly think of to show their grab range is different?

That's not to say people cant DI the throws farther (I honestly dont know if they can or cant, never looked into it)
But either way, that's different from them having the same grab range/reach.

And those fireballs can't be that much faster. And even if they were, opponents catch on to them before racking very much damage. At least with the pills, you can do a quick full hop turn around pill throw and it will probably hit grounded opponents who don't expect it. But the fireball kinda goes above them. So, you can actually pill camp with Doc. But no one camps with fire (lol).

Take 2 controllers, put 1 on doc, one on mario. have one of them stand on a platform, and throw both at the same time. See if that pill catches the fire ball. Considering they both have THE EXACT SAME FRAME DATA (go figure), the fireball is going to go about 2 character lengths further. That's... because it's faster.

As for pills being a better defensive option (like I said earlier), hitting somebody running in like that comes to projectile spacing.

Where a Doc would FH pill for that, Mario would just SH fireball/SHFF or FHFF fireball, etc etc. It just comes down to spacing.

I'm pretty sure DJN will come in here and backhand you for saying you cant fireball camp with mario.

The combo/SHHFLing options is the only thing I can agree with there. Mario is definitely the better combo man. And yeah the sour spot is lame but true! And with the exception of Capt. Falcon, Ganondorf, DK, and Bowser, what characters won't die from Doc's F-air without PERFECT DI if there are already at 100% (that means they are at 116% afterwards). Ok maybe 115% is gauranteed F-air KO!

Alot of characters can live longer, especially depending on the stage. It's just that a majority of people literally dont know how to DI the fair.

Survival DI for the fair is so "off the wall" compared to other DI, people dont think about it.

Maybe Mario has the better potential, but I find it harder to kill high tiers as Mario. You have to challenge the high tiers attacks up close to often without the assistance of the pill as Mario. And the high tiers outrange Doc and Mario in priority and range. So who's gonna be successful head up again falco or falcon with short range aerials and a floaty approach?! It takes to many mindgames to get inside. The tournament results are what they are because Mario has to approach riskier than Doc does.

Mario doesnt have as many kill options, but he can edgeguard very well, which is what most stuff revolves around now-a-day.

And I like how your assessment of range stops at aerials. Mario's f.smash is pretty fricking long. Virtually safe on block (which is why if you watch like, DJN, he'll do double f.smash and get away with it, because he spaces well.) It's one of the reasons why he has a near-even matchup with falcon, and does alot better vs sheik than doc.

 

[strawhats]

Good **** Dogysamich. I know mario has to space. I actually wanted to say that mario had really good matchups against high/top tier characters. but since tourney results have indicated higher success rates w/. Dr. Mario's such as yourself. I was forced to be a little unbiased. My allegiance will always be w/. my mario though. PLus I love to jab tech chase w/. my mario in to chain grab u-air and forward smash.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I never could play Doc. They feel so much like different characters, it's ridiculous. I don't know why I prefer Mario by a long shot. It might be because I feel faster + I have better control over him. Might just be because I use him more. Dunno.

 

[VGmasta]

Wow (Jaw-drop)! That's interesting, Dogy! My sincere apologies about the inaccurate posts before. Mario and Doc unbelievably have the exact same grab range (Jump-canceled and non-jump canceled). Doc only look like he has longer range because his standing grab/JC grab animation looks as if he is trying to hug a huge bear. But with Mario's grab animation, his arms barely stretch out anywhere. How deceptive!

The fireballs in fact do go out horizontally faster than the pills will go horizontally. The pills only seemed faster because they fall faster vertically. It became especially obvious when full hopping the projectiles.

Thanks for posting Dogy, this stuff must be accurate if a smash maniac like M2K approved these stats. Again, my sincere apologies to everyone for the inaccuracies! I'll try to be more careful in the future.

 

[iMichael]

i also like mario U-air combos that usually ends with F-smash.
I practice that Up+B cancel walljump on four side to get a good grasp on it. Its pretty epic

That's an upair blind ending with a fsmash or nair.. and once you get it the timing down on it you can look tight playing on Yoshi's Island.

 

[onedayafter7]

How you perform the walljump from ledge? is it one tap backwards or double tap? because ive somehow done it both ways both by complete accident.

 

[j3ly]

u can only do it on Fod, Fd and sometimes stadium

drop down from hanging on the ledge, hold toward the stage and jump back up
its now activated, u need to press away fast and you doraki jump, its really usefull against luigi and samus unless they recover low, which they will after takin a nair in the face

 

[onedayafter7]

Oh. So its more like a scarjump? i could have sworn that i read somewhere that it was just a double tap backwards or somthing rather than having to drop down first.

 

[ChivalRuse]

u can only do it on Fod, Fd and sometimes stadium

drop down from hanging on the ledge, hold toward the stage and jump back up
its now activated, u need to press away fast and you doraki jump, its really usefull against luigi and samus unless they recover low, which they will after takin a nair in the face

D.I.W.J. doesn't work on DL64? That's weird.

 

[j3ly]

nah i tried over and over, its because of the dent at the bottom, it stops the game from thinking ur still hugging the wall when u grab the edge.

Onedayafter - you read that he needs to press backwards twice im pretty sure in the first pages of this thread - thats what lead me to clock doraki wall jumping and its not true. There are other ways of activating it, so when u press back (once, twice is no good lol) you/the other guy would have activated it with some random method, and it looked like u need to press back twice.

I dno what scarjumping is, but i know scar is leeeeeeenng at gimping people at the bottom of the stage, and that falcon can doraki jump so yeah, i would say its probably the same thing as scar jumping

 

[j3ly]

oh yeah and incase anyone trys, i tried just falling of the edge and not touching the dent at the bottom, no difference

somebody pleaase prove me wrong lol upwards Di'ing falcons on DL get ***** by a nair to the face

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey guys, my Melee Mario is becoming legit. I'm starting to get really good, now that I'm learning tech skill.

I'll be recording matches soon! I swear you won't be disappointed.

 

[onedayafter7]

Hey guys, my Melee Mario is becoming legit. I'm starting to get really good, now that I'm learning tech skill.

I'll be recording matches soon! I swear you won't be disappointed.

Link the matches here when you record. im curious to see.

 

[condemned_soul]

oh yeah people are starting to comeback. im so happy this is going so well ^_^. as soon as a find a way of recording my matches, i would link them up here as well. The more we get the closer we get to keeping mario alive even if it is melee. Melee is still awesome. Melee Mario FTW