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Official Yoshi CG List ""FRAME DATA INFO CHANGED A FEW THINGS"" (Updated on 9/29/09)

Poltergust

Poltergust

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We added him a couple of days ago thanks to me. ^_^

I always felt that Pit was chain-grabbable, but since he wasn't on the list I just put it off until I was fooling around in Training Mode.
 
Ryusuta

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Hmm.. as loathe as I am to admit it (because the point was brought up by certain players on whom I wish physical harm in Colorado), I think a lot of these could be re-examined.

Sonic can reliably spring out of the CG, while Snake, Pit, and DK seem to be able to jump out even when the throw is buffered perfectly.

I personally am leaning toward Pit being CGable, but I think we really need frame data on all three of those characters in particular.

And before people start in, LEAVE ANECDOTAL AND SPECULATIVE EVIDENCE OUT OF THIS.

For example, if you believe the CG to NOT be escapable, saying "You're not doing the CG right," isn't proper evidence. You can't say for sure that they're doing it wrong.

Conversely, if you believe that they ARE escapable, saying "The people you're playing suck if they can't escape this," is a poor response as well. You don't know who the person has played, and they could be very good at the characters.

What it comes down to is needing 100% accurate frame data on this. I personally think that Pit is inescapable (although Colorado disagrees with me strongly), Snake might be debatable, and that DK and Sonic are both entirely escapable. We should get some more research done on these guys.
 
SOVAman

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Sir 0rion said:
DK and Sonic are both entirely escapable..
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Hows this they can not jump out and sonic can't UpB out and even if he did he can't air dodge on his way down so you can grab him again

So for the 100th time your doing it wrong

Alopex said:
Poli is so far from Polter...

To type in an "i" instead of "ter" is not a typo, it's just plain ignorance.

Sir Onion would be a typo. Sir Ore is ignorance.

Poltergust should now go on a rampage of rage. That's what ignored people do. Take cover.
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WTF who cares maybe I thought his name was pultigust instead of poltergust so GTFO
 
Ryusuta

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lilb93 said:
Hows this they can not jump out and sonic can't UpB out and even if he did he can't air dodge on his way down so you can grab him again

So for the 100th time your doing it wrong
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Uh huh. So, apparently, you didn't read this part:

Sir 0rion said:
For example, if you believe the CG to NOT be escapable, saying "You're not doing the CG right," isn't proper evidence. You can't say for sure that they're doing it wrong.
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Socks also agrees that DK can jump out of the CG even with perfect timing, and although I disagree with him on certain issues, I have one hell of a lot of respect for his knowledge and I'm with him 100% on this one. DK can escape the CG.

And if Sonic can up B out of the CG, IT IS NOT A REAL CHAIN GRAB. That's not even a difficult part to follow.

So, instead of regurgitating back the same exact arguments I specifically said NOT to use since they help no one whatsoever, why not actually help do what I originally suggested (if you'd bother to read the full post for a change) and help conduct frame data on these chain grabs. That's far more informative than speculating as to the possible skill of the Yoshi player and/or his opponents.
 
SOVAman

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Sir 0rion said:
Uh huh. So, apparently, you didn't read this part:



Socks also agrees that DK can jump out of the CG even with perfect timing, and although I disagree with him on certain issues, I have one hell of a lot of respect for his knowledge and I'm with him 100% on this one. DK can escape the CG.

And if Sonic can up B out of the CG, IT IS NOT A REAL CHAIN GRAB. That's not even a difficult part to follow.

So, instead of regurgitating back the same exact arguments I specifically said NOT to use since they help no one whatsoever, why not actually help do what I originally suggested (if you'd bother to read the full post for a change) and help conduct frame data on these chain grabs. That's far more informative than speculating as to the possible skill of the Yoshi player and/or his opponents.
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Okay go ahead and test frame data but I know for a fact that DK is CGable and I will re test sonic later. But if you can't do the CG on DK then thats just to bad don't do it. I don't really care about the whole DK thing I KNOW he can't jump out.

Also it seems you do not like to argue with me and I don't like to argue with you so get conclusive evidence that DK can jump out of it before you bring it up it is just a circular argument that will never end and saying "Sockz said so" does not mean **** and isn't enough for me to change anything
 
Ryusuta

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lilb93 said:
Okay go ahead and test frame data but I know for a fact that DK is CGable and I will re test sonic later. But if you can't do the CG on DK then thats just to bad don't do it. I don't really care about the whole DK thing I KNOW he can't jump out.
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And you KNOW this how? Let me guess - you take it on faith that the DK players you played against would have jumped out if they could have.

Newsflash: I know the timing of DK's chain grab. If the DK player doesn't know when to escape, I can do it every time. If he DOES, he'll make it out just about every time.

Also it seems you do not like to argue with me and I don't like to argue with you so get conclusive evidence that DK can jump out of it before you bring it up it is just a circular argument that will never end and saying "Sockz said so" does not mean **** and isn't enough for me to change anything
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I merely pointed out that a respected Yoshi player not only agrees with me, but brought up the point in the first place.

And unlike you, I'm willing to keep and open mind about this. If we can conclusively establish what is escapable and what isn't, it will help everyone involved. A lot more so than this finger-pointing and these ridiculous assumptions have.
 
SOVAman

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Okay so the argument continues like I said this a circular argument that will never end if you can get actual PROOF not just you and maybe a few others can't do it then I will change it but there is no way to prove this so I am leaving it how it is because there is no proof

Honestly, if it doesn't work for you then don't do it like I said it works for me so I am going to keep using and until I find a single DK player that can jump out then I will reconsider.


But this argument needs to end and if it doesn't work for you then imagine its not on the list
 
Ryusuta

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*Sigh*

Again, you miss my point. It's not about winning an argument for me. It's about finding the correct answer and throwing out these useless assumptions.

I'm looking for hard evidence, whether it supports my personal beliefs or not. You're looking to score ego points. That's the key difference in this discussion.
 
SOVAman

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Sir 0rion said:
*Sigh*

Again, you miss my point. It's not about winning an argument for me. It's about finding the correct answer and throwing out these useless assumptions.

I'm looking for hard evidence, whether it supports my personal beliefs or not. You're looking to score ego points. That's the key difference in this discussion.
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Finding the answer is not going to come by making post on the forum sorry to break it to you all it is going to do is tell me what you think or think you have proved

And ino what you said "I'm looking for hard evidence, whether it supports my personal beliefs or not." but look for the evidence don't post about the DK I am playing and other stuff like that.

Sorry about being a hypocrite and continuing the argument.
 
Ryusuta

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lilb93 said:
Finding the answer is not going to come by making post on the forum sorry to break it to you all it is going to do is tell me what you think or think you have proved
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I never said I proved anything. That's the point. And asking for people to look at the data involved with this is most certainly a viable use for this forum.

And ino what you said "I'm looking for hard evidence, whether it supports my personal beliefs or not." but look for the evidence don't post about the DK I am playing and other stuff like that.
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I'm looking for whatever evidence I can find, from whatever source I can find. It's called being thorough. I'm not in a position to check the frame data for these things myself at this particular moment, which is why I'm bringing the subject up here in the first place.

Sorry about being a hypocrite and continuing the argument.
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Well, I appreciate that. But I'm not trying to "win" an "argument" at all. I haven't been since the subject came up. If you have something valid to contribute that doesn't come from speculation or anecdotal evidence, I am all ears. Otherwise, there's nothing to argue about, because neither one of us have discovered anything conclusively.
 
SOVAman

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Okay just tested it AGAIN and there is no possible way for a human DK player to jump out I am doing the CG frame perfect almost hitting the dash and grab at the same time and I just re tested on Sonic to and there is no way he too is getting out


and lol at Sonic he can't even get out of the lag in time LOL

So think what you like based on your skill on using the CG.


NOTE THIS IS NOT CONCLUSIVE IN ANY MEANS there may be other ways to get out besides jumping and UpBing
 
D

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I cant even do most of these, i was just told by UndrDog that pit can up b out cuz he has invincibilty frames =/
 
D

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Poltergust said:
Have you actually tested it yourself, Sockz? =/
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No i havent, but pits up b comes out in like 2 frames, has a bunch of invincibilty, and pushes yoshi back. Im not an idiiot, the way you guys described this made it pretty clear that this should work.

Lil B is pro cger anyways.
 
Poltergust

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lilb93 said:
I have tested it don't worry


and have you tested it yourself poltergust??????
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Of course (at least in the best way I can). Why else would I have brought it up? That's why I am so sure that he can be chain-grabbed.

...We desperately need frame data. >_>
 
Ryusuta

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You're both right. Pit is indeed able to escape the CG with his up B...

...and we still need frame data for all of these.
 
SOVAman

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Until someone can get into the game and retrieve frame data its not happening that the only legit way to get frame data so we might never get 100% accurate data.
 
Ryusuta

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True enough. Well, I suppose there's always a possibility of a debug mode for Brawl like there was in Melee. Who knows.
 
Ryusuta

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More anecdotes! We need MORE anecdotes! :ohwell:

Did you watch the video? Don't tell me that his timing was off, either, because it was DEAD ON. DK can escape. I know you don't want to admit it, but he can.
 
Ryusuta

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Dude, give me a break.

I'm not sure how much clearer the point could be made, honestly. DK can escape the CG. You can say that he can't until you're blue in the face, but he can. I don't even PLAY as Donkey Kong, and I can consistently escape it with him.

And again, there's where the problem lies. There's one faction saying that the Yoshi player sucks if he isn't able to CG him, and the other saying that the DK sucks if he can't escape.

We have to throw those arguments out the window and look at the available evidence. And right now, there's some pretty convincing footage that shows a very reasonable leeway for escape. Apart from me driving all the way down there and letting you try to CG me, I'm not sure what else I can do to convince you about this.
 
SOVAman

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I never said that the yoshi player sucks because he can't CG DK or do the CG in general I just said either you can do it or you can't do it simple as that and I have no trouble what so ever CGing any DK so he is CGable once yoshi's foot touches the ground you have too buffer in the dash and grab or it won't work I can't keep giving you reasons because it doesn't make a difference I CG DK's fine without trouble most likely because I have almost perfected the CG so give me a break and stop *****ing


on the other hand the CG is not even that useful on the harder characters because of how far they go so we need to not make a HUGE deal over it like I said for the 100th time either you can do it or you can't simply put.
 
Poltergust

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lilb, you're debating over something that evidence was provided for, yet you just decided that Pit can't be chain-grabbed at a moment's glance? Now, I'm not debating over whether DK can be chain-grabbed or not (it may be better this way, since he can only up-B out of it and it sets him up for something worse), but I'd like to see some evidence that Pit can't be chain-grabbed.
 
Silent Beast

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Hmm... lilb, about how often do you get a successful chaingrab on DK? Not like how often a match, but a success percentage? When you go for a chaingrab on a DK that knows what it's doing and knows that you're going for the chaingrab, about what percentage of the time are you successful?
 
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