Official Washington Melee thread

[Silent Wolf]

im always down captain brown.

 

[Kamaji]

yea, wtfvista lol. He beat me too! Who has he been practicing with?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Prob that youtube

Edit: I dont give a **** if he beat vish. His sheik aint ****in wit m3. MM ninja

 

[Vulcan55]

hey.
I updated my tourney thread.
It's Melee only now.
check it out.
sign up.
etc.

 

[Silent Wolf]

should we legalize corneria for gc? seems like only kline wanted it banned and a lot of others didnt lol.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its not my fault that ppl show up to tourneys without reading the rules. They just assumed that the stages would be the same. I at least look at the stage lists or ask somebody who did.

It wasnt only me who wanted it banned, it just seemed that toph kept trying to convince me it was legal and saying i was ****ing dumb and didnt know what I was talking about. then he tried the "well we can go there because kamaji didnt say no so we technically agreed." Kamaji didnt say no, because he also didnt look at the stage list but would have opted not to take his doc to corneria vs fox. Toph did the right thing and extended the set tho, so good **** on his part.

I dont like corneria, its a gay stage. Shane was also down for the ban but I dont know how he feels as to in cpability for the future.

Neutrals-FD DL YS PS FoD BF

CPable-Kongo, brinstar, Mute city, rainbow
---------------------------------------------------------------------------I think this is a balanced WA list.

You can have the PR panel vote on the stage list or something, or just make an executive decision and choose the stage list.

I just dont want the list to be geared towards our technical fox players having corneria green greens rainbow cpable and stadium as a neutral instead of a cp.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I wasn't specifically targeting the little situation you're talking about, I was just saying, It's a viable counterpick as far as I'm concerned and we took it off the roster with very little reasoning.

Stadium is clearly a viable neutral and shouldn't be thought of as otherwise because of one character, and imo, we want as many viable neutrals on the set as we can get.

Rainbow cruise has walk off ledges, there's no way that should be legal.

Quit acting like the stage set is geared towards Fox. Apparently the only reason you don't want Corneria as a CP is because it's "gay" and probably because it's "geared towards Fox." The same could be said about Mute City or Brinstar about Peach or Jigglypuff. I think Corneria should be legal for teams and singles. The only reason it's banned from the SBR rule set is because of people using the dorsal fin to camp. None of us do that, and if we did, it wouldn't be that big of a problem, it's not like camping either side is unstoppable or anything.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I only listed my concerns with the list. I agree with you that mute city/brinstar can be jiggz peach based. But they are also good for either non fast fallers or characters that dont have alot of recovery lag from the up B/have decent recoveries to where they dont need to grab the ledge to survive.

Stadium is a good fox stage tho, theres no doubt about it. I dont actually care about that one either way because Its been a neutral since I started playing and I never pick that stage. It is pretty clear that when the stage changes to rock there is substantial wallage and WA does have the most technical fox(s)-I see u eggz lol. plus its a time when fox can really take advantage of the small stage size/walls/right side boundary glitch.

I dont really care for corneria, because of the uneven ground, the wall under the fin, the fact that the stage is actually moving away from you when trying to recover from the right side, the extremely low cieling(especially at the fin), the wall under the fin and the fact that you can camp alil bit extra. And the random summoning of slippy and peppy with max lv3 lasers.

Also previously you had suggested Green Greens and it was the same situation with that it was taken off without a considerable amount of thought. just the combo of stadium, rainbow, corneria, green greens all in limbo left a few concerns. Fox benefits from either the free range or super low ceilings and walls on all of those. I didnt mind 1 for fox/peach/jiggs, I just didnt want to have 4 in tandem with **** foxes with mad tech skill. it just seemed slightly biased thats all.

In relation to that incident, it was semi significant so I thought you were referring to it. Rainbow was also used significantly in the GC tourney.

Edit:as far as stadium, I vote we move to stage striking instead of random, then stadium isnt really a concern as a neutral because there would then be 5 stages scratching 2 from each player. If ppl wanted to go there it would still get picked.

 

[Paff]

One bit on the stages discussion - in theory, the ruleset as it was at GC was really good for Peach - Poke Floats, Corneria, and Green Greens gone, but Mute still available. Don't know if anyone cares about that or not though.

And stage striking sounds like a good idea to me, although I have no idea which neutral should be moved to counterpick.

 

[Syler]

got dammit vish do i have to give you shiek training!?

Oh and good **** vista ^^

 

[Eggz]

corneria should be legal. id say cruise too but ottos pretty against it. needs more fox stages

 

[Silent Wolf]

I only listed my concerns with the list. I agree with you that mute city/brinstar can be jiggz peach based. But they are also good for either non fast fallers or characters that dont have alot of recovery lag from the up B/have decent recoveries to where they dont need to grab the ledge to survive.

Yeah, kinda like how Corneria isnt just good for fox >_>

Stadium is a good fox stage tho, theres no doubt about it. I dont actually care about that one either way because Its been a neutral since I started playing and I never pick that stage. It is pretty clear that when the stage changes to rock there is substantial wallage and WA does have the most technical fox(s)-I see u eggz lol. plus its a time when fox can really take advantage of the small stage size/walls/right side boundary glitch.

you act like a fox would actually want to go down there when someone else is, its not like the wall = automatic fox ****. im pretty sure fd and chain throwing are a lot more broken that that, and you can do that at any point in the match...

I dont really care for corneria, because of the uneven ground, the wall under the fin, the fact that the stage is actually moving away from you when trying to recover from the right side, the extremely low cieling(especially at the fin), the wall under the fin and the fact that you can camp alil bit extra. And the random summoning of slippy and peppy with max lv3 lasers.

uneven ground isnt a reason to have it banned at all, nor does it contribute to the idea at all...the stage affecting your movment isnt that big of a deal, just dont suck. you may as well be complaining about dreamland. the ceiling isnt extremely low, especially not low enouhg to constitute a ban, yoshis is lower...you said the wall under the fin twice, and its not really that big of a deal. anything can be teched aside from shine, but actually getting a waveshine infinite is unlikely, especially more than once, so it isnt a reason to badn the stage entirely. its not like it will be a neutral. the slants mess up foxes waveshine combos on the other part of the stage anyways. a lil bit extra? you realize kongo jungle 64 is legal and that has just as much camping capability.

Also previously you had suggested Green Greens and it was the same situation with that it was taken off without a considerable amount of thought. just the combo of stadium, rainbow, corneria, green greens all in limbo left a few concerns. Fox benefits from either the free range or super low ceilings and walls on all of those. I didnt mind 1 for fox/peach/jiggs, I just didnt want to have 4 in tandem with **** foxes with mad tech skill. it just seemed slightly biased thats all.

I saw green greens being banned as reasonable, a lot more reasonable than corneria, hence one of the stages being defended. theyre two different stages.

In relation to that incident, it was semi significant so I thought you were referring to it. Rainbow was also used significantly in the GC tourney.

Edit:as far as stadium, I vote we move to stage striking instead of random, then stadium isnt really a concern as a neutral because there would then be 5 stages scratching 2 from each player. If ppl wanted to go there it would still get picked.

that incident just made me think about it a bit more.

i vote youre a ****ing ****** and a stage that is considered neutral shouldnt be moved to counterpick just for the sake of stage striking. one ban per person is fine.

if you make a response to this, leave out the pointless parts so i dont have to waste my time making you look dumb.

 

[Silent Wolf]

corneria should be legal. id say cruise too but ottos pretty against it. needs more fox stages

Corneria .

 

[Eggz]

the fin is one of the glitched walls that doesnt actually count as a wall for the purpose of waveshine infinites iirc. you can like instantly shield out of a shine because it counts it as you going airborn then landing

cornerias koo

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yeah, kinda like how Corneria isnt just good for fox >_>

I wasnt trying to get into an argument lil dude. I was only expressing my concerns for a stage list. It was nothing more than my opinion, I think you reacted a lil harsh.

Also, saying Corneria isnt just good for fox does not constitute as evidence. I believe samus/marth can do some fin **** there but other that I was unaware of characters that like going there other than fox. Next time try explaining your reasonings giving a little bit more than other ppl are good there 2.

you act like a fox would actually want to go down there when someone else is, its not like the wall = automatic fox ****. im pretty sure fd and chain throwing are a lot more broken that that, and you can do that at any point in the match...

Im not saying that he would always try to go down there or anything like that. Fox is a playable character, not the one in control. But that doesnt change the fact that he can still infinite down there.

uneven ground isnt a reason to have it banned at all, nor does it contribute to the idea at all...the stage affecting your movment isnt that big of a deal, just dont suck. you may as well be complaining about dreamland. the ceiling isnt extremely low, especially not low enouhg to constitute a ban, yoshis is lower...you said the wall under the fin twice, and its not really that big of a deal. anything can be teched aside from shine, but actually getting a waveshine infinite is unlikely, especially more than once, so it isnt a reason to badn the stage entirely. its not like it will be a neutral. the slants mess up foxes waveshine combos on the other part of the stage anyways. a lil bit extra? you realize kongo jungle 64 is legal and that has just as much camping capability.

I gave you a package of reasons why I didnt like corneria and that I felt it may be fox oriented and have potential to be banned. You took them individually instead of in combination. Im assuming the reasons I gave that were legit were the ones that you left out. I guess you win debates because you are more technical. You never addressed the fact that slippy and peppy are hazards and annoying as ****. I honestly dont know how that wall affects the infinites as eggz presented but you never confirmed nor denied it. All you did was affirm its possibility and that it shouldnt happen more than once in a match.

Most of the time you are overly critical without reason. You lack appreciation of many events that happen in the melee community. For example-at genesis, almost everyone in the room (even brawl ppl) at least enjoyed the grand finals, including your partner in crime, I asked you what you thought and you said "its ****in boring." There is nothing wrong with high standards but dam! That was grand finals of one of the biggest melee tourneys to date.

I saw green greens being banned as reasonable, a lot more reasonable than corneria, hence one of the stages being defended. theyre two different stages.

I wanted to make sure that all basis were covered. Saying that they are two diff stages is dumb because thats obvious, but it doesnt nullify the fact that we have been using it in WA along with corneria. Two stages that are both banned by the MBR but also, were banned in our most recent GC simply because I said we should ban them and eggz and yourself agreed. Thats reason enough to put them both back up for discussion. Considering how the original stage list was presented by the one currently known as Silent Wolf-it also had Green greens listed as a legal CP.

that incident just made me think about it a bit more.

i vote youre a ****ing ****** and a stage that is considered neutral shouldnt be moved to counterpick just for the sake of stage striking. one ban per person is fine.

if you make a response to this, leave out the pointless parts so i dont have to waste my time making you look dumb.

What is wrong with you. Why are you soooo angry. I was only giving my opinion, yet you seem to not be able to enter a debate without respecting others. Your only reason for stadium being neutral is-CUZ IM SILENT WOLF ie you havent given one at all. All you have said is "its clearly neutral" You havent, nor have I, even given a criteria for what constitutes as a neutral stage. Not to mention, a group of your peers who are widely considered to be greater than you in terms of skill, have already come to a consensus on that stadium is Cpable not neutral and that corneria is banned. They also provided at least some form of reasoning. Something you have failed to do for your case.

I was only trying to put it up for discussion but you acted as if it was a personal attack on your character. There is no reason to reduce yourself to name calling in a matter as simple as this. We are only trying to come up with a stage list.

Alot of ppl choose to use the one by the MBR, but for some reason I knew that for whatever reason you wouldnt agree with it. Which, Im ok with, but be civilized about it and stop being counter productive by wasting time with mindless insults.

 

[Eggz]

less than 1/8th of stadium is banworthy, iirc, aka has walls and ridiculous platform setups. thats nowhere near a majority. it was clearly only banned for the purpose of stage striking, which we've never really done here and can still do with 6 stages, though without COMPLETE fairness.

 

[Batmansince1939]

so who is stoked for pound?

 

[Silent Wolf]

I wasnt trying to get into an argument lil dude. I was only expressing my concerns for a stage list. It was nothing more than my opinion, I think you reacted a lil harsh.

So you want me to discuss the stages without arguing with you after you've given bad reasons as to why Corneria should be banned and Stadium should not be neutral? I don't get it.

Also, saying Corneria isnt just good for fox does not constitute as evidence. I believe samus/marth can do some fin **** there but other that I was unaware of characters that like going there other than fox. Next time try explaining your reasonings giving a little bit more than other ppl are good there 2.

The only thing that would constitute evidence being necessary is if there were several clear reasons as to why the stage would be a large enough hindrance to qualify as a banned stage. (A hindrance provided by the stage and applied universally towards each character widely enough to constitute a ban). There is no such hindrance in any characters game provided by this stage. Remember, were talking about the stage being completely illegal, not just not being worthy as a counter pick for other characters. I don't think it not being too great of a cp for a lot of characters constitutes a ban.

Im not saying that he would always try to go down there or anything like that. Fox is a playable character, not the one in control. But that doesnt change the fact that he can still infinite down there.

he cant infinite down there, i just tried it, its really easy to get out of. and even if he could, like i said, it would be just as bad as marth vs fox on fd or the like. fd is legal.

I gave you a package of reasons why I didnt like corneria and that I felt it may be fox oriented and have potential to be banned. You took them individually instead of in combination. Im assuming the reasons I gave that were legit were the ones that you left out. I guess you win debates because you are more technical. You never addressed the fact that slippy and peppy are hazards and annoying as ****. I honestly dont know how that wall affects the infinites as eggz presented but you never confirmed nor denied it. All you did was affirm its possibility and that it shouldnt happen more than once in a match.

If i left any out it was by accident. I split them up because I was giving you good reasons why those weren't good reasons at all, and shouldn't even be bothered to be put together. The ceiling is normal, the slants are nowhere near a reason for it to be anywhere more near being banned, and like I said, Fox can't infinite, and also like I said, if he could, think of Marth on FD, or Peach on FD, or several other characters, it's just as bad. As for the ships, they're really not that bad, unless you're standing in one spot for more than 3 seconds...and if someone holds you so you get shot, you deserve that 10 or so percent because they are clearly pimpin and probably got shot as well.

Most of the time you are overly critical without reason. You lack appreciation of many events that happen in the melee community. For example-at genesis, almost everyone in the room (even brawl ppl) at least enjoyed the grand finals, including your partner in crime, I asked you what you thought and you said "its ****in boring." There is nothing wrong with high standards but dam! That was grand finals of one of the biggest melee tourneys to date.

Without reasoning? First off I'd like to point out that people are really easy to impress in person. Second, it's peach vs jigglypuff, sorry if I didn't find that very fun to watch. In case you havent realized, im sw, I'm very hard to impress >_>

I wanted to make sure that all basis were covered. Saying that they are two diff stages is dumb because thats obvious, but it doesnt nullify the fact that we have been using it in WA along with corneria. Two stages that are both banned by the MBR but also, were banned in our most recent GC simply because I said we should ban them and eggz and yourself agreed. Thats reason enough to put them both back up for discussion. Considering how the original stage list was presented by the one currently known as Silent Wolf-it also had Green greens listed as a legal CP.

If you really want me to tell you why I think Green Greens should be banned I will.

-Extremely low ceiling and extremely close walls. This wouldn't be as bad if the stage itself wasn't really small as well.
-The Bombs. A lot of the time you can't do anything about them. These working with the close walls makes for very cheap kills.
-Apples interfere with anything going on in the center of the stage. The have a high chance of ruining combos unlike slippy who shoots where you were like 2 seconds ago.

What is wrong with you. Why are you soooo angry. I was only giving my opinion, yet you seem to not be able to enter a debate without respecting others. Your only reason for stadium being neutral is-CUZ IM SILENT WOLF ie you havent given one at all. All you have said is "its clearly neutral" You havent, nor have I, even given a criteria for what constitutes as a neutral stage. Not to mention, a group of your peers who are widely considered to be greater than you in terms of skill, have already come to a consensus on that stadium is Cpable not neutral and that corneria is banned. They also provided at least some form of reasoning. Something you have failed to do for your case.

I'm just annoyed that I've had to type all this, quit being a baby. Why would I give a reason why it should be neutral when there's no good reasons it shouldn't be a neutral? I'll defend it once legitimate reasons are given as to why it shouldn't be, other than "we should put it as cp cuz stage strikings tite." The only real reasons they had for changing either of those stages was because of camping, which isn't really a problem here and isn't really a problem on those stages in general. Like I said, you can camp just as well on KJ64 as you can on Corneria in most cases, if not better. Also, you don't even know who actually posts back there or how good anyone is, so how would you know?

I was only trying to put it up for discussion but you acted as if it was a personal attack on your character. There is no reason to reduce yourself to name calling in a matter as simple as this. We are only trying to come up with a stage list.

I called you a ****** because your only reason for wanting it moved to cp was for the sake of stage striking, which is ********. Quit taking offense when I'm just insulting you accordingly.

Alot of ppl choose to use the one by the MBR, but for some reason I knew that for whatever reason you wouldnt agree with it. Which, Im ok with, but be civilized about it and stop being counter productive by wasting time with mindless insults.

I only slightly disagree with it, and you say that as if you thought I would disagree with it just for the sake of disagreeing with the MBR, which I don't, and I have given my reasons why. Also, my insults aren't mindless, you're just a big black sensitive mass.

 

[Eggz]

big black sensitive mass (my *** hole)

 

[Silent Wolf]

lol kline is your *** hole. (slave)

EDIT: everyone who can, bring a cube to pound 3. warming up will be easier that way cuz u can get in no matter what and stuff (at first). Plus the tournament might be done with in time for m to do regional crews >.>

 

[Paff]

I dunno, Otto, I think it makes sense for people to get offended when you call them "****ing *******" and back it up with further insults.

And a noob question: how well would stage striking work if each person struck two out of the six stages, so two stages remained, and then used random select to choose between those two?

 

[Silent Wolf]

If the insults were without reason I would care more. It's not like I was like, "alright, you're a ******, therefore youre wrong, also youre dumb and im sw so i win." Although that would have been tight.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

Who the **** is vista? getatme vista. Nobody's embarasses my Vish like that and gets away with it >=[

 

[C!Z]

LoL all that was too funny. Quit bein *****es about stages, the more the better. Learn to adapt(here comes the insult cuz I can) f4gs.

 

[KAOSTAR]

So you want me to discuss the stages without arguing with you after you've given bad reasons as to why Corneria should be banned and Stadium should not be neutral? I don't get it.

I was going to phrase this differently but I thought you would get my point this way. I telling you that Im not trying to get into a fierce battle of **** wit you, I just wanted to discuss the stages for a stage list. My original post was presented without opposition and setup to present information-I wanted how you felt about the stage list because at that point I had mad respect for your opinions.

The only thing that would constitute evidence being necessary is if there were several clear reasons as to why the stage would be a large enough hindrance to qualify as a banned stage. (A hindrance provided by the stage and applied universally towards each character widely enough to constitute a ban). There is no such hindrance in any characters game provided by this stage. Remember, were talking about the stage being completely illegal, not just not being worthy as a counter pick for other characters. I don't think it not being too great of a cp for a lot of characters constitutes a ban.

Yea, none of the other legal stages have outside interference with the exception of dream land, the only reason dream land isnt a problem is because it universally affects all characters, simultaneously and only while they are on the ground. Its also timed so that it can be expected, such as the cloud on yoshis story.

No matter the measly ten percent you can take an unnecessarily amount dealt by factors other than your opponent or yourself, the ships alone are a hindrance. Its an outside influence that can directly affect the out come of a match. If I choose to stand still I am in danger of being attacked by my opponent and fox's homies. Also this hindrance is not universally applied to all characters. They shoot at 1 character and whatever happens happens. If the walls are not infinites then fine. Does that include the below the nose of the ship? The uneven ground and low ceiling are more reasons I do not like the stage, the low ceiling is why I feel its fox oriented.

My question to you was-who else, or what type of character also benefits from this stage? I guess m2 pika with upwards kills. I commented that mute city brinstar are good for peach/jiggz yess! but they are also good from characters who arent fast fallers and ppl with a certain type of recovery. You have enough exp to be able to deduce the characters that can benefit from what Im talking about.

he cant infinite down there, i just tried it, its really easy to get out of. and even if he could, like i said, it would be just as bad as marth vs fox on fd or the like. fd is legal.

You cant use marth vs fox on FD because that flat out character programming. Thats what can happen with zero interference. Not to mention that fox can also Cg along with peach and pikachu. Alot of character can tech chase more easily due to the lack of platformish obstacles. Who else can wall infinite? Not to mention there are 5 stages that are considered completely neutral with no walls whatsoever.

If i left any out it was by accident. I split them up because I was giving you good reasons why those weren't good reasons at all, and shouldn't even be bothered to be put together. The ceiling is normal, the slants are nowhere near a reason for it to be anywhere more near being banned, and like I said, Fox can't infinite, and also like I said, if he could, think of Marth on FD, or Peach on FD, or several other characters, it's just as bad. As for the ships, they're really not that bad, unless you're standing in one spot for more than 3 seconds...and if someone holds you so you get shot, you deserve that 10 or so percent because they are clearly pimpin and probably got shot as well.

No, chain grabs are not infinites. Being chain grabbed is not the same as being shined against a wall until the user chooses to stop leading directly into a kill move. Marth can technically only Cg until about 35 percent or so. After that its regrabs which can be directly compared to tech chases except in the air. Fox/falco, the recipients of the Cg can shine out. I honestly cant comment on peachs upthrow because I dont know what the options are for getting out. My only gripe would be that you can at least DI whereas getting infinited your Di doesnt matter.

Without reasoning? First off I'd like to point out that people are really easy to impress in person. Second, it's peach vs jigglypuff, sorry if I didn't find that very fun to watch. In case you havent realized, im sw, I'm very hard to impress >_>

This part isnt really important. The point was it was about the hype. Whether or not it was mad flashy technical Os that you eat for breakfast. It didnt even have to be impressive visually, you cant deny the hype-in which you opted out of.

If you really want me to tell you why I think Green Greens should be banned I will.

-Extremely low ceiling and extremely close walls. This wouldn't be as bad if the stage itself wasn't really small as well.
-The Bombs. A lot of the time you can't do anything about them. These working with the close walls makes for very cheap kills.
-Apples interfere with anything going on in the center of the stage. The have a high chance of ruining combos unlike slippy who shoots where you were like 2 seconds ago.

Fair enough, I agree.

I'm just annoyed that I've had to type all this, quit being a baby. Why would I give a reason why it should be neutral when there's no good reasons it shouldn't be a neutral? I'll defend it once legitimate reasons are given as to why it shouldn't be, other than "we should put it as cp cuz stage strikings tite." The only real reasons they had for changing either of those stages was because of camping, which isn't really a problem here and isn't really a problem on those stages in general. Like I said, you can camp just as well on KJ64 as you can on Corneria in most cases, if not better. Also, you don't even know who actually posts back there or how good anyone is, so how would you know?

KJ64 doesnt attack you, period. Also there are no walls whatsoever. KJ64 is the closest cp to being neutral, its symmetrical, no hazards, no infinites credited directly to the stage. I think it was the camping/stage dimensions that kept it un neutral. Also stadium despite in your non reasonings being neutral-isnt. Even with stage striking they could have added KJ64 to the neutrals to have an odd number to be COMPLETELY fair for the first round. But instead they chose to take stadium off instead.

Actually you dont have to do anything. The point is, I dont have to defend what is unless there is an opposition. Stadium is already listed on the MBR list as Cpable, Im sure they had similar discussion to what we are having now. Idk if you were still apart of it at the time so you may know. It would be your job to argue for your position as to why it shouldnt be legal.

I called you a ****** because your only reason for wanting it moved to cp was for the sake of stage striking, which is ********. Quit taking offense when I'm just insulting you accordingly.

Thats bull****. I wanted stage striking to be apart of our tourney scene. In order for it to be fair-either add one or take one away. Since stadium isnt 100%, 1/8th I think as Eggz quoted, I voted to move it to cp. The MBR felt that stadium was not neutral.

Remember we are talking about moving it to cp not banning it entirely. The stage should not dictate how the match is played. When the big *** rock comes up, most of the usable ground is taken away leaving a less hazardous green greens but smaller in terms of flat ground. This pretty much puts both players on the defensive. Also fox/falco have advantages more so in such a confined space and a 1 frame attack.

I only slightly disagree with it, and you say that as if you thought I would disagree with it just for the sake of disagreeing with the MBR, which I don't, and I have given my reasons why. Also, my insults aren't mindless, you're just a big black sensitive mass.

Mindless son. Im not mad, just there is no reason to be an ******* and calling me a ******** slave. Also apparently your ******* has a slight brownish tint to it and that reminds you of black ppl I guess.

I said it like that because I kinda believed you to have that attitude. Maybe you just didnt want to be involved, I dont know the reasoning, but even that you use to be a mod but you arent because you dont like the color red. Idk why you arent MBR anymore but it just seemed like u have a problem with authority. If Im wrong , Im wrong. just my opinion.

Im not being sensitive you are just being a little immature.

 

[omgwtfToph]

otto said "dorsal" in this thread. fukking tight

corneria is legit

edit: kline, marth's chaingrab is legit waaaay past 35%... and Peach's uthrow chaingrab is legit past 120%ish

 

[KAOSTAR]

why can you shine out then? You gotta hit them and regrab.

biased *** fox player lol. so far our best 3 foxes vote yess. sorry vish microsoft released an update.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I was going to phrase this differently but I thought you would get my point this way. I telling you that Im not trying to get into a fierce battle of **** wit you, I just wanted to discuss the stages for a stage list. My original post was presented without opposition and setup to present information-I wanted how you felt about the stage list because at that point I had mad respect for your opinions.

Well we seem to have a difference in opinion which usually creates an argument. So I suggest you just stop if you don't want to argue. =P

Yea, none of the other legal stages have outside interference with the exception of dream land, the only reason dream land isnt a problem is because it universally affects all characters, simultaneously and only while they are on the ground. Its also timed so that it can be expected, such as the cloud on yoshis story.


No matter the measly ten percent you can take an unnecessarily amount dealt by factors other than your opponent or yourself, the ships alone are a hindrance. Its an outside influence that can directly affect the out come of a match. If I choose to stand still I am in danger of being attacked by my opponent and fox's homies. Also this hindrance is not universally applied to all characters. They shoot at 1 character and whatever happens happens. If the walls are not infinites then fine. Does that include the below the nose of the ship? The uneven ground and low ceiling are more reasons I do not like the stage, the low ceiling is why I feel its fox oriented.

Just because all other legal stages don't have an attack from the stage doesn't mean a stage should be banned because of it. It being able to effect the outcome of a match doesn't qualify it for a ban either. Like I said, it's really not that hard to get hit by the lasers, and they only do 12 damage anyways, that's less than your average aerial. Actually the shots are universally applied, everyone has about the same chance of getting shot, but like I said, the shots really aren't that big of a deal. You shouldn't be standing in place, it makes you more predictable. If you're referring to the guns, I don't know if you can waveshine infinite, nobody's dumb enough to go down there with someone anyway. You already said that's why you don't like the stage, and I already told you, the uneven ground isn't that bad and shouldn't be used as a reason for it to be banned. The ceiling really isn't that bad either, like I said. You have to realize that these are not good enough reasons to have a stage banned. i don't see why you're so against it as a counter pick, have I not given you enough reasoning? Do you not understand what I'm saying?

My question to you was-who else, or what type of character also benefits from this stage? I guess m2 pika with upwards kills. I commented that mute city brinstar are good for peach/jiggz yess! but they are also good from characters who arent fast fallers and ppl with a certain type of recovery. You have enough exp to be able to deduce the characters that can benefit from what Im talking about.

I ignored that question because it's irrelevant. The topic at hand is should the stage be legal, using the basis of the stage itself. If anyone had any game-breaking tactics on this stage I would have let you know as well as let you know that just that shouldn't constitute a ban.

You cant use marth vs fox on FD because that flat out character programming. Thats what can happen with zero interference. Not to mention that fox can also Cg along with peach and pikachu. Alot of character can tech chase more easily due to the lack of platformish obstacles. Who else can wall infinite? Not to mention there are 5 stages that are considered completely neutral with no walls whatsoever.

Nobody else can wall infinite, but like shane said, stadium is only not neutral less than 1/8th of the time. Even if one of the wall stages does show up, it's not like Fox gets a guaranteed wall infinite or anything. Most smart players just stay away from one another for the 30 seconds the stage is changed to the opponents liking. If the opponent tries to rush in and attack they will definitely get punished, because that's the way the rock and fire stages are set up on stadium, you can either play it safe, or go for the risk and possible reward.

No, chain grabs are not infinites. Being chain grabbed is not the same as being shined against a wall until the user chooses to stop leading directly into a kill move. Marth can technically only Cg until about 35 percent or so. After that its regrabs which can be directly compared to tech chases except in the air. Fox/falco, the recipients of the Cg can shine out. I honestly cant comment on peachs upthrow because I dont know what the options are for getting out. My only gripe would be that you can at least DI whereas getting infinited your Di doesnt matter.

You're missing the point entirely. I'm not saying chain grabs are infinites, I'm saying both chain grabs and infinites can lead to a death without anything to be done about it. At 35% a Marth can hit with the back part of the utilt and re grab, and from there do several things that are inescapable. Marth can almost always get the kill if he's good. Pikachu, Peach, and Fox's chain grabs are even better, you can kill pretty much no matter what with those. Also, a grab is really easy to get compared to a wall infinite =P If you think otherwise you obviously didn't read or comprehend my last paragraph.

This part isnt really important. The point was it was about the hype. Whether or not it was mad flashy technical Os that you eat for breakfast. It didnt even have to be impressive visually, you cant deny the hype-in which you opted out of.

Fair enough, I agree.

What hype, no one I cared about was playing.

KJ64 doesnt attack you, period. Also there are no walls whatsoever. KJ64 is the closest cp to being neutral, its symmetrical, no hazards, no infinites credited directly to the stage. I think it was the camping/stage dimensions that kept it un neutral. Also stadium despite in your non reasonings being neutral-isnt. Even with stage striking they could have added KJ64 to the neutrals to have an odd number to be COMPLETELY fair for the first round. But instead they chose to take stadium off instead.

Stadium doesn't attack you either >_> and I'm not arguing that Corneria be a neutral so that's irrelevant. Just because a stage that's a cp doesn't attack you, doesn't mean any stage that can attack you should be banned. The barrel can be considered a hazard, just saying. The only thing you're implying is that KJ64 is less of a neutral than Stadium. >_>

Actually you dont have to do anything. The point is, I dont have to defend what is unless there is an opposition. Stadium is already listed on the MBR list as Cpable, Im sure they had similar discussion to what we are having now. Idk if you were still apart of it at the time so you may know. It would be your job to argue for your position as to why it shouldnt be legal.

They banned it because of the 2 transformations causing delays in matches, which can last up to 30 seconds. I say the stage is worth keeping because a 1/8 chance of a 30 wait is worth keeping a really cool and otherwise neutral stage. Why is it neutral? It's ****ing obvious, it's flat, basic platforms, zero stage hazards, very reasonable walls and Ceilings.

Thats bull****. I wanted stage striking to be apart of our tourney scene. In order for it to be fair-either add one or take one away. Since stadium isnt 100%, 1/8th I think as Eggz quoted, I voted to move it to cp. The MBR felt that stadium was not neutral.

I'm just going to repeat this part so you realize:

They banned it because of the 2 transformations causing delays in matches, which can last up to 30 seconds. I say the stage is worth keeping because a 1/8 chance of a 30 wait is worth keeping a really cool and otherwise neutral stage. Why is it neutral? It's ****ing obvious, it's flat, basic platforms, zero stage hazards, very reasonable walls and Ceilings.

Remember we are talking about moving it to cp not banning it entirely. The stage should not dictate how the match is played. When the big *** rock comes up, most of the usable ground is taken away leaving a less hazardous green greens but smaller in terms of flat ground. This pretty much puts both players on the defensive. Also fox/falco have advantages more so in such a confined space and a 1 frame attack.

Remember what I just posted twice. the stage is what dictates how the match is played, right after the characters, that's how the game works. In this case, the match is dictated in a different way, briefly. Like I said, any smart player would keep to them selves in that situation, you don't have to get ***** just because the stage is like that, and if you choose to go in and attack, you'll prolly get punished for it.

Im not being sensitive you are just being a little immature.

I just get annoyed when people waste my time poorly defending something. I have to say something, otherwise people (you) would get mad if I changed the rules on my own accord.

Please read all of this thoroughly and understand all of it, I'd really not like to keep this up, it's really, really annoying.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yeah Stadium should be a neutral. Sure it's good for the space animals, but hey, Dream Land is good for floaties and Falcon... FD is good for Marth and Peach... YS is good for Marth... FoD sucks for Falcon... I mean, there's no stage that's totally neutral. Stadium is nowhere near as wacky as any of the other CP Stages.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I understand what you are saying otto.

Its just a difference of opinion. I like stadium(kinda) and its really the lesser of my points.

The barrel is not considered a hazard because it moves back an fourth on a timed schedule and doesnt directly attack players. Its there and part of the stage. If you get hit into it its your fault.

corneria specifically aims at a particular player, in no particular order.

Ill just end it with I think that the stage having control over the outcome, ie being shot is means to ban a stage. Its similar to tripping in brawl-its just ****ing stupid. There are plenty of times when ppl stand still such as charging an attack. I shouldnt have to worry about the stage targeting 1 person randomly. It doesnt matter if being still is bad, it should be punished ny my opponent not the stage.

We can just agree to disagree, I guess we can wait and see what other ppl think. Or you can just make the stage list, which I did say you could just do in the first place. Youve heard my opinion so its whatev.

I thought mango was ya boi

@toph, stadium isnt as wacky as the cp stages, buts its the craziest of "neutrals" and it was recently removed.

 

[Paff]

I'm neutral on stage lists - I figure anything that gets decided on will work fine. However, I've got an issue with the "stage having control over the outcome = ban" idea.

(Note: I'm not arguing for or against Corneria's bannage here - I'm definitely not knowledgeable enough about it to have a valid opinion either way. I just think this particular point is flawed.)

First off, random influences on the outcome of a match are not always unacceptably bad in competetive games. Two heavily luck-based competetive games are poker and Magic: The Gathering, both of which are quite successful. In StarCraft, as well, each player starts at a random spawn point, which matters in terms of which player ends up having the advantage in scouting for the other, and can lead to significant advantages.

Secondly, we already have some randomness in Melee that we've chosen not to remove - Peach's fsmash and down-b, Luigi's side-b, and G&W's side-b are all random in ways that, in the right situations, can have major consequences that neither player had any control over. We also have been using random stage selection so far, and it sounds like we're probably going to continue to do so.

I imagine everyone would agree that under ideal circumstances, our ruleset wouldn't allow anything that has random effects on the outcome. However, the way the game is built means that removing all of that randomness has its own negative effects (fewer characters, fewer legal stages, fewer neutral stages).

In the cases of all of the characters with random moves, everyone has unanimously decided that the randomness is worth it in light of having more characters, so everyone has implicitly agreed that there are some situations where randomness is worth it for other benefits.

The question in Corneria's case is "Is the randomness from getting shot at worth it in order to have Corneria as a legal stage?". It sounds like Otto and Toph both think it is. I don't have an opinion either way, because I don't know enough about the other benefits/downsides of having it available. But I am certain that the randomness itself does not necessarily mean that it should be banned.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yeah and YS is way more random anyway. But its hilarious. Sir Smokesalot makes YS my favorite neutral.

Btw, just cuz I miss Ciz, I had Andy walk like Ciz tonight when he got home from work. Man, it's amazing how accurate of an imitation Andy performs of Ciz.

 

[Eggz]

i wish that actually happened =[

i like that idea paff

 

[KAOSTAR]

I can say that I respect your opinion paff but I still disagree. Those moves are not random in the sense that its predetermined to be either this or that.

Peach never has the same Fsmash twice in a row. Luigi has statistics for his side b explosion. 1/8. when it mist fires the next one is 2/8.

Yoshis is absolutely, Toph, not more random. The cloud moves back and fourth at a constant speed. Its not random at all. Some have even said the cloud can be timed based on certain digits on the clock.

The outcome is random, but its human induced. On any stage if we stand there, nobody is affected without our influence(DL-wind). You will take damage randomly on Corneria.

All of your melee random things are all within a players control. Its all probability in which informed decisions can be made.

 

[Eggz]

im really slow on posting in here
i thought otto went to sleep hours ago
so i didnt think id get ninja'd

but

this is the only glaring thing i feel like addressing

My question to you was-who else, or what type of character also benefits from this stage? I guess m2 pika with upwards kills. I commented that mute city brinstar are good for peach/jiggz yess! but they are also good from characters who arent fast fallers and ppl with a certain type of recovery. You have enough exp to be able to deduce the characters that can benefit from what Im talking about.

You're implying that Corneria should benefit a large demographic, instead of just Fox players in order to be counterpick status. This is not the case. The point of a counterpick is to grant advantages/exploit disadvantages to very specific character and player skillsets. This is the kind of argument one would make for a neutral stage, not a counterpick.

Actually, one more thing.

brown-ish tinted ******* = weird

Are you implying that we should bleech our *******s?

and since i was just ninja posted again

those characters moves arent truly random

True randomness cannot exist artificially, as artificial randomness is based on percentile chances derived from intentional algorithims. Luigi's side B is just as random as slippy ****in you up.

 

[omgwtfToph]

now that I think about it

stadium going to cp isn't really that big a deal

but it still shouldn't be cp

corneria should definitely be cp though, way moreso than like green greens etc... green greens is ****in trippy

 

[Eggz]

Yeah, its less likely to be banned if its a CP, as long as there are more ridiculous fox stages allowed.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Also having it taken off the stage list for the purposes of stage striking is hella dumb. With stage striking you could literally do the 6 current neutrals plus Brinstar Depths, and brinstar depths would invariably get struck anyway. (If neither player, with their 3 strikes each, banned Brinstar Depths, then clearly both players favored the stage anyway)

 

[Silent Wolf]

I understand what you are saying otto.

Its just a difference of opinion. I like stadium(kinda) and its really the lesser of my points.

The barrel is not considered a hazard because it moves back an fourth on a timed schedule and doesnt directly attack players. Its there and part of the stage. If you get hit into it its your fault.

The barrel is a hazard, you can get knocked into it unknowingly and shoot out instantly upon trying to recover, it's very common. It's not your fault, it's just as much your fault as it is if you get shot, quit acting like dodging the lasers is a big deal, it's like impossible to actually get hit if you;re not a complete *******.

Ill just end it with I think that the stage having control over the outcome, ie being shot is means to ban a stage. Its similar to tripping in brawl-its just ****ing stupid. There are plenty of times when ppl stand still such as charging an attack. I shouldnt have to worry about the stage targeting 1 person randomly. It doesnt matter if being still is bad, it should be punished ny my opponent not the stage.

The stage doesnt have control over the outcome. A Shot does 12 damage, less than your average aerial, how many times do I have to repeat myself. By that logic we should ban yoshi's story and KJ64 as well, but obviously that's not enough of a reason, yet you still keep using that reason. There are not plenty of times when people are standing stil charging an attack, you ust play with noobs all the time. Just watch out for it, it's not hard to dodge. If you have time to charge an attack, just dodge the laser first and do it not charged, that sacrifice should not issue a ban.

We can just agree to disagree, I guess we can wait and see what other ppl think. Or you can just make the stage list, which I did say you could just do in the first place. Youve heard my opinion so its whatev.

I wont let you disagree because your reasons are horrible, that's why I'm continuing to try to convince you, because you're flat out wrong. So far everyone is against you as well. If you're going to mak a rebuttal use a different reason or just don't, you're wasting my time.

I thought mango was ya boi

not a close enough friend for me to care.

@toph, stadium isnt as wacky as the cp stages, buts its the craziest of "neutrals" and it was recently removed.

Would you shut up? It's hardly crazy at all.

Don't reply unless you have some actual points, because if you reply with the same bull**** arguments I'm just going to ignore you.

 

[C!Z]

LoL dam stinky Indians, always tryna be me.