Official SWF Tier List v8

[PKBeam]

ESAM is known for being a top Pika. Doesn't mean he can't main ICs in tourneys.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well I have yet to watch most of ESAM's matches, but I knew that he went Pika/IC. I do not know the extent of the IC usage.

 

[NickRiddle]

He certainly didn't body ZeRo in WSF with Pikachu.

 

[BlueXenon]

This is my current tier list:
Metaknight:

Top Tier:
A.
B.
C.

High Tier:
D.

Mid Tier:
E.
F.
G.

Lowe Tier:
H.
I.

Notes:
I realized that even though Ice Climbers have the best punishing game and are hard to grab, their recovery is just so terrible, with and without nana. Diddykong is a lot more reliable and consistent and he also has a great punishing game and infinites that can be used in tournament. I moved Olimar down just because I think Diddykong and Ice Climbers are better, not because Olimar got any worse.

I really think Marth belongs at 5th. His ledge pressure is the best in the game imo. He has great oos options, good low % combos, a good juggling game, and some quick punishes. I think the reason why Marth doesn't have the results that a 5th place character should have is because he has so many even match ups, which means a Marth player must always put in all his/her effort in every tournament set, which becomes very tiring. However, Marth definitely has the potential to win any tournament and his disadvantageous match ups are just a few -1's.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

This is my current tier list:
Metaknight:

Top Tier:
A.
B.
C.

High Tier:
D.

Mid Tier:
E.
F.
G.

Lowe Tier:
H.
I.

Notes:
I realized that even though Ice Climbers have the best punishing game and are hard to grab, their recovery is just so terrible, with and without nana. Diddykong is a lot more reliable and consistent and he also has a great punishing game and infinites that can be used in tournament. I moved Olimar down just because I think Diddykong and Ice Climbers are better, not because Olimar got any worse.

I really think Marth belongs at 5th. His ledge pressure is the best in the game imo. He has great oos options, good low % combos, a good juggling game, and some quick punishes. I think the reason why Marth doesn't have the results that a 5th place character should have is because he has so many even match ups, which means a Marth player must always put in all his/her effort in every tournament set, which becomes very tiring. However, Marth definitely has the potential to win any tournament and his disadvantageous match ups are just a few -1's.

Yo I like this list.

Puff is too low, Fox is too high, and Falcon is missing, but other than that it's perfect

Oh wait nvm just saw Marth above flaoc and Snake. so dum l0l

Edit: Toon Link is missing also

 

[Seagull Joe]

the highest MT...? Why?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well, He put Marth ahead probably he believes that Marth can break Falco and Snake's camp game and the can be easily gimped. Gengar is perfect where it is and Fox does have a semblance of its run and gun game from Melee, so it is a decent spot for it. Maybe they believe that CF is not too important to be included.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

the highest MT...? Why?

Because robots are awesome.

 

[Delta-cod]

If you look at results from all nationals, not just Apex, ICs are by far the most consistent character after MK, and theres only like 3 good IC players. ICs had a bad showing at Apex, yes, but look at any other top tier aside from MK and theyve had even more bad showings. One tournament =/= everything, ICs are far more consistent overall.

I guess they're the only number 2 looking at results, but I just don't see their attributes keeping them that way. I think if the other MKs start getting their **** together like Zero/Nairo did at Apex, I don't think we'll be seeing the same consistency. Those two actually did what I expected MK to be able to do to the ICs this whole time.

 

[PKBeam]

gengar needs to be higher than link, we must have H(yrule) tier back.
mid tier spacies need 2 be in their own starfox tier, throw GW and pit in C-.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Gengar, to me, suffers against any projectiles and that is why Gengar is lower than Link.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd say Link suffers harder against projectiles than Gengar

 

[Z'zgashi]

I guess they're the only number 2 looking at results, but I just don't see their attributes keeping them that way. I think if the other MKs start getting their **** together like Zero/Nairo did at Apex, I don't think we'll be seeing the same consistency. Those two actually did what I expected MK to be able to do to the ICs this whole time.

If the other MKs start getting their **** together, EVERY non MK character will get wrecked lol.

 

[-LzR-]

And for the 100th time... The reason we are seeing so much success with ICs is because all the stupid rules to keep MK borderline fair have eliminated their weaknesses.

 

[Delta-cod]

^Except for their MK weakness.

If the other MKs start getting their **** together, EVERY non MK character will get wrecked lol.

I think other characters can put up better neutral games than the ICs do against MK, so while probably true, I'd argue that they should be higher anyways.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'd say Link suffers harder against projectiles than Gengar

Link can standby block the projectiles (not recommended of course) and has projectiles of his own. Gengar relies ONLY on baiting moves and punish with its aerials. Gengar has a pretty weak ground game too, though it does have a dacus and respectable grab range (I guess). I think of Gengar as weaker Weegee in this game as they nerfed Gengar's moves too much for me.

 

[1PokeMastr]

They nerfed one of Gengar's moves.

The addition of being able to cancel hitstun/ lag cancelling hurt some characters pretty badly from the Melee -> Brawl transition.

Look at Falcon for example.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Gengar's bair was nerfed, fsmash (a reliable killer, but not as easy to setup). CF was nerfed so bad that some fellow did even mention him in his tier list.

 

[Phan7om]

Gengar's bair was nerfed, fsmash (a reliable killer, but not as easy to setup). CF was nerfed so bad that some fellow did even mention him in his tier list.

The only thing about Falcon that got nerfed was his Knee I think, everything else was ported over basically. The physics just f*cked him over.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Worse traction which benefits him defensively, but hampers him offensively (lack of shield grab and what not). His dair does not always meteor smash and loss of spike. His nair almost never links properly, fsmash nerfed bad too, uair has (to me) less utility. The gentleman is now near useless. There are probably more things, but that is all I can really think of right now.

 

[BlueXenon]

Oh wait nvm just saw Marth above flaoc and Snake. so dum l0l
Edit: Toon Link is missing also

Thankyou for telling me I was missing TL. I didn't even notice.
Falco has two counters and Snake has too many -1 match ups.

the highest MT...? Why?

I think people focus too much on Rob's weaknesses. Rob is really bad when he is being juggled or on the ledge and he has multiple counters and poor oos options, but he has really good strengths. He has mostly great aerials with very large hitboxes, fast and long ranged tilts, two amazing projectiles, and he can change his aerial direction with his down b and cancel the charge immediately. Rob's neutral special doesn't kill often or do too much %, but it hits often and has many uses, including the prevention of DI. Rob's gyro gives him more options in many situations, more mobility, an edge guard tool, and can disrupt his opponents. I don't think Rob's kill power is a big problem. He doesn't kill at the % most characters do, but he can still get the kill. He has nair, bair, fsmash, fair, ftilt, throws, and he can safely go far offstage vs some characters.

I think his metaknight match up is closer to -1 than -2 at top level play based on Luminous vs Rain and he has a winning mu vs ice climbers.

 

[Phan7om]

Worse traction which benefits him defensively, but hampers him offensively (lack of shield grab and what not). His dair does not always meteor smash and loss of spike. His nair almost never links properly, fsmash nerfed bad too, uair has (to me) less utility. The gentleman is now near useless. There are probably more things, but that is all I can really think of right now.

So basically you're saying that his traction got worse, and his F-smash was nerfed along with Knee. D-air wasnt really a killing option since you could easily meteor cancel it, and the diagonal trajectory in Brawl sorta makes it a surprising kill move if used right. Everything else has to do with Brawl's physics (floaty, hitstun cancelling, etc.)

 

[Seagull Joe]

Thankyou for telling me I was missing TL. I didn't even notice.
Falco has two counters and Snake has too many -1 match ups.

I think people focus too much on Rob's weaknesses. Rob is really bad when he is being juggled or on the ledge and he has multiple counters and poor oos options, but he has really good strengths. He has mostly great aerials with very large hitboxes, fast and long ranged tilts, two amazing projectiles, and he can change his aerial direction with his down b and cancel the charge immediately. Rob's neutral special doesn't kill often or do too much %, but it hits often and has many uses, including the prevention of DI. Rob's gyro gives him more options in many situations, more mobility, an edge guard tool, and can disrupt his opponents. I don't think Rob's kill power is a big problem. He doesn't kill at the % most characters do, but he can still get the kill. He has nair, bair, fsmash, fair, ftilt, throws, and he can safely go far offstage vs some characters.

I think his metaknight match up is closer to -1 than -2 at top level play based on Luminous vs Rain and he has a winning mu vs ice climbers.

LOOOL. gets **** on by . It's -3. Do you think is going to win roughly 30-45% of the time versus a top level ? I sure don't. Maybe 10-20% of the time if both people are of the same caliber.

 

[Man Li Gi]

So basically you're saying that his traction got worse, and his F-smash was nerfed along with Knee. D-air wasnt really a killing option since you could easily meteor cancel it, and the diagonal trajectory in Brawl sorta makes it a surprising kill move if used right. Everything else has to do with Brawl's physics (floaty, hitstun cancelling, etc.)

Dair had the Nipple spike my friend. The gentleman has nothing to do with brawl physics as jab cancelling was made super easy in this game, but the lack of utility holds it back. Ftilt is also weaker. Overall, Falcon received a power nerf and speed nerf as his top run speed is slightly slower too.

 

[Phan7om]

Dair had the Nipple spike my friend. The gentleman has nothing to do with brawl physics as jab cancelling was made super easy in this game, but the lack of utility holds it back. Ftilt is also weaker. Overall, Falcon received a power nerf and speed nerf as his top run speed is slightly slower too.

My point is that even with all the nerfs Falcon had in Brawl. If those nerfs existed in Melee, he would not be brought down on the tier list as much (aka not one of the worst in the game). The Brawl physics made him bad, he still would most likely be low-mid tier with the power and speed he had in Melee... basically he still wouldnt be viable.

 

[-LzR-]

^Except for their MK weakness.

Don't tell them. Let people think ICs don't get wrecked by MK.

 

[Osennecho]

Too bad the bracket's not up tho

Dis bracket? http://challonge.com/apexbrawl

 

[BlueXenon]

LOOOL. gets **** on by . It's -3. Do you think is going to win roughly 30-45% of the time versus a top level ? I sure don't. Maybe 10-20% of the time if both people are of the same caliber.

I think Rob can win 35-40% of the time, but this match up has not been played enough at top level. Luminous is the only top level rob player left so I am waiting for his most recent sets to be uploaded to youtube.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think ROB/mk is -2
If everything goes right, then ROB can stand a chance for sure
but then sometimes you get the snake factor where you **** up in just the wrong position and you lose an entire stock from being juggled and edge-guarded

it really comes down to things like that
another example is when ROB's shield is low, whether he gets the next hit or not makes suuuch a big difference in momentum
the mu is full of those 'vulnerable' points for ROB, and whoever capitalizes properly gets a big advantage
but the advantage mk gets is a lot bigger
because **** mk

Link can standby block the projectiles (not recommended of course) and has projectiles of his own. Gengar relies ONLY on baiting moves and punish with its aerials. Gengar has a pretty weak ground game too, though it does have a dacus and respectable grab range (I guess). I think of Gengar as weaker Weegee in this game as they nerfed Gengar's moves too much for me.

Link gets shut-down by characters with a good projectile game; falco, diddy, olimar, samus (ish), etc... because he's too slow and clumsy to be able to avoid the projectiles and subsequent frame traps. Toon Link is probably the only character that gives Gengar that problem, and even that's arguable, she can avoid projectiles for days and create openings for herself over time.

 

[PKBeam]

not hard for Gengar to avoid Tink's stuff, it can just stay in the air with its 5 midair jumps and rising Pound stall thing. Sooner or later Tink messes up and Gengar has a chance to get inside and get knocked right back to the other side of the stage.

also no-one mentioned Link's shield.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

man li gi did, actually

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

jab cancelling was made super easy in this game, but the lack of utility holds it back.

Falcon's jab is literally his best move, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[PKBeam]

no, IKE's jab is his best move. falcon's best move is Falcon Punch.
and shiny mewtwo, post your tier list. i bet i can guess the exact positions of two characters.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

no, IKE's jab is his best move.
and shiny mewtwo, post your tier list. i bet i can guess the exact positions of two characters.

Oh damn you're right. Ike's jab IS Falcon's best move.

How could I have been so blind.

And I'll post my tier list if you can guess the exact positions of two characters.

Any two characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff first, Fox last

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Puff first, Fox last

NOPE WRONG

Puff is 2nd

 

[PKBeam]

MK first
Focks last

 

[Grim Tuesday]

wrong, it's mewtwo first

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think ROB/mk is -2
If everything goes right, then ROB can stand a chance for sure
but then sometimes you get the snake factor where you **** up in just the wrong position and you lose an entire stock from being juggled and edge-guarded

Bolded is kinda why this falls apart.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, clearly