Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Master Raven]

I'm not going to argue whether Pika/MK is even or not but I have some serious issues with a lot of people declaring they know the matchup when they haven't really experienced it at high level play.

Why are people acting like they know a lot about the Pika/MK matchup when Pika players are virtually nonexistent outside one region? Outside of FL, everywhere else it's either A) the Pika and MK live too far apart to get consistent practice, or B) the Pika or MK are not very good, or C) both. ESAM still goes back and forth with Seibrik, who has more experience in this matchup than any other MK. ESAM is a world class player but it is also through Pika's tools that he is able to do what he does in the matchup, so the character does play an important role there.

People should take a more scientific approach to evaluating matchups, and that includes experiment (playing the matchups). Theorycrafting is one thing, actual application is another.

 

[Dekillsage]

Snake is one of the best characters at dealing with MK (I could list all the things he can do and stuff he can punish vs MK that other characters can't, but it would take a while...), I don't see how you can say it's -2.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope

 

[Rizen]

@Grim and Icecream
Let's not have an international incident here

 

[MVD]

guys.... snake sucks

 

[OverLade]

Snake sucks but he hits like a FedX truck and lives longer than Edward Cullen from Twilight. Fvck outta here

 

[OverLade]

And yeah, anyone who isn't RedHalberd or Seibrik has no right to talk about MK vs Pikachu :D

Do people still namesearch? Seibrik get in here.

 

[Master Raven]

I'd list you alongside Seibrik, Lade, but I don't know how much you've played ESAM since you started playing again besides the last NLL.

 

[8Bitman]

... I agree with almost all MUs above R.O.B.. i disagree with every single MU below R.O.B... Granted I never cared for the MUC, I still think its bad....

 

[MVD]

he does but snake also gets juggled worse than women in a ***** house

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Snake doesn't suck.

Ally and to a lesser extent the japanese are just the only people who can use him.

 

[Master Raven]

And MVD. MVD holds several patents in fact.

 

[Rizen]

Anyone who says Snake sucks has never used a character below B tier.

 

[MVD]

nah ronnie, ppl think I'm bad you don't understand

 

[MVD]

I use mario ***** and I love him

 

[Djent]

I'm not going to argue whether Pika/MK is even or not but I have some serious issues with a lot of people declaring they know the matchup when they haven't really experienced it at high level play.

Why are people acting like they know a lot about the Pika/MK matchup when Pika players are virtually nonexistent outside one region? Outside of FL, everywhere else it's either A) the Pika and MK live too far apart to get consistent practice, or B) the Pika or MK are not very good, or C) both. ESAM still goes back and forth with Seibrik, who has more experience in this matchup than any other MK. ESAM is a world class player but it is also through Pika's tools that he is able to do what he does in the matchup, so the character does play an important role there.

People should take a more scientific approach to evaluating matchups, and that includes experiment (playing the matchups). Theorycrafting is one thing, actual application is another.

No good scientist would base his/her conclusions of a comparison between two players - that's a terrible sample size. Also, if we were doing science, we'd control for confounding variables such as skill levels. Seibrik is not the same caliber player as ESAM (we're not in 2010 anymore ROFL), so if anything the fact that he "goes back and forth" counts in favor of the +1 MK camp. But I still think we're lacking the necessary results to *truly* determine this matchup empirically, so I'm still forced to take others' theoretical objections seriously.

 

[OverLade]

I'd list you alongside Seibrik, Lade, but I don't know how much you've played ESAM since you started playing again besides the last NLL.

Playing a matchup often is completely unrelated to playing it well. I'm sure you've played ESAM a lot more than I have

And obv I do better than Seibrik in the matchup even though he lives down the street from ESAM. If ESAM downloaded me, it'd be simply because he's a better player, so it wouldn't prove that the matchup is somehow even. The fact that in a short set I beat him handily proves MK wins the matchup by even more.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I agree with everything Lade says.

 

[OverLade]

Seagullmenggggggg :D

 

[DtJ S2n]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i-jNIo5qH4
Best DK in the world losing to a Meta Knight who has almost no idea how to play the match-up.

EDIT: Okay "almost no idea" is a little crude, but the fact that 90% of his tornadoes weren't his best option in the situation - but still worked half the time anyway - says a lot about the MU.

Let's talk about Will beating Coney or Atomsk's DDD and make that a positive match-up for DK if we're going to use that as an argument.

Meta Knight/Donkey Kong is right, it's about -2. It's definitely no worse.

Thanks DK you're my man!

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

yeah i still name search but i aint reading this whole thread, whatsup?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't think he's ever beaten Coney or Atomsk's Dedede.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't think he's ever beaten Coney or Atomsk's Dedede.

1. Coney isn't relevant anymore (As much as I love his ).
2. Yes Will has.

yeah i still name search but i aint reading this whole thread, whatsup?

Basically, Florida is arguing with themselves plus randoms that navigate the tier list/matchup chart threads.

vs is not even looooool. is still underrated in terms of his matchups.

I'm just happy 's matchups look good, though being only +2 with after seeing all his other -2's is weird. I think Verm also said +3's . I can't remember if that went to discussion or not.

 

[Master Raven]

Playing a matchup often is completely unrelated to playing it well. I'm sure you've played ESAM a lot more than I have

And obv I do better than Seibrik in the matchup even though he lives down the street from ESAM. If ESAM downloaded me, it'd be simply because he's a better player, so it wouldn't prove that the matchup is somehow even. The fact that in a short set I beat him handily proves MK wins the matchup by even more.

And what if he beat you in that set? How can you determine the matchup from just that one short set? Also, I've played ESAM a bunch but I'm not as qualified to determine the matchup since I'm not as experienced as both you and Seibrik are. There are a lot of variables that can determine a set that go even beyond the game, such as skill fluctuation, momentum, fatigue, etc.

I just find it really odd that anyone can determine a matchup from 1-2 sets as the metagame continues to evolve. Theorycrafting matters, but application + results is more relevant, and right now I think only a handful of people can have any say on the Pika/MK matchup because of their experience.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I might not have made myself clear; beating Atomsk sans infinite is not the same as beating Atomsk.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

pika/mk is even

before going into why i would like anyone to post an adv. mk has in the MU

we will discuss it from there

 

[Grim Tuesday]

By power-shielding (or just avoiding) jolts, and properly using dair, SH fair, ftilt, tornado, etc... Meta Knight can reliably and safely force Pikachu to commit to an unsafe action.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

how can mk use ALL those options at the same time? i dont understand, can you elaborate?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You see Seibrik, Meta Knight doesn't use all of them at the same time, he switches between them based on the situation he is presented with. Does that help?

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

correct, he mixes up his options because not one single option he has is "right" all the time. his options are hardly right most of the time against pikachu, they're just generally safe, however each and every option he has can be punished by pika upon prediction, and every punish pika has is pretty much equal or better than mk's punishes as far as damage output goes.

 

[Ghostbone]

pika/mk is even

before going into why i would like anyone to post an adv. mk has in the MU

we will discuss it from there

Range
Faster/less punishable/more numerable kill moves
No blind spot below him
More OoS options

Imo Pikachu's advantages don't make up for them

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

to ghostbone:

pikachu actually has earlier kill potentail on mk than mk has on pika


pika's recovery is good enough to not be in too much danger off stage, he should not feasibly get gimped so at most mk might get a follow up hit, but usually its just positional advantage from throwing pika off stage

however pika technically has a "gimp" on mk because if he catches mk with an utilt, or last hit of dsmash, (amoung some other setups involving Up-B cancels to catch good DI away) pika puts mk at risk of dying to thunder around 80-120%

mk can't reliably kill pika until about 130 or so unless the pika has atrocious DI from dsmash or something

 

[Grim Tuesday]

correct, he mixes up his options because not one single option he has is "right" all the time. his options are hardly right most of the time against pikachu, they're just generally safe, however each and every option he has can be punished by pika upon prediction, and every punish pika has is pretty much equal or better than mk's punishes as far as damage output goes.

Jigglypuff can punish MK's options on prediction as well, that doesn't mean anything.

As you can clearly see from the match I linked of Zero playing against ESAM earlier, Meta Knight's mix-ups are better than Pikachu's. Ftilt and dtilt out-range all of Pika's ground options, fair covers a lot of space when Pika tries to do anything particularly mobile, and nado will catch him out of any aerial/platform commitments. Not to mention that if Pikachu finds himself next to Meta Knight, MK has GSL which will outspeed everything.

Can't you air dodge the entirety of Thunder on reaction? Yeeeaaahhh....

 

[OverLade]

And what if he beat you in that set? How can you determine the matchup from just that one short set? Also, I've played ESAM a bunch but I'm not as qualified to determine the matchup since I'm not as experienced as both you and Seibrik are. There are a lot of variables that can determine a set that go even beyond the game, such as skill fluctuation, momentum, fatigue, etc.

I just find it really odd that anyone can determine a matchup from 1-2 sets as the metagame continues to evolve. Theorycrafting matters, but application + results is more relevant, and right now I think only a handful of people can have any say on the Pika/MK matchup because of their experience.

ESAM is a better player than me. There is no disputing this.

His natural reaction time is WAY better than mine (I might add this is the key factor in his ability to beat top MK players), and he has far more experience in the matchup than I do. Logically if the matchup was even, it would be close to impossible for me to beat him in a set.

However, what happened? I beat him 2 stock 58 percent, and last hit game 2 on his CP even after being down almost an entire stock. Why? Because MK is able to play in a way that forces Pikachu to make extremely risky decisions.

We can use this as representative of the matchup because a short set between two people who don't play is likely to be more representative of a matchup ratio, whereas a long set is going to be representative of a player to player ratio.

Someone like Ally may play aggressive game 1, knowing that it's not the correct way to play a matchup but expect to adapt and download his opponent by the end of the game. The longer a set is, the more advantage the better player (player who adapts faster) has.

And most importantly, reaction time is too huge of a factor in this game for me and ESAM to be considered even players, regardless of my level of analysis vs his. If I had ESAM's reaction time I guarantee I'd **** basically everyone who plays this game for free

 

[Ghostbone]

Up-tilt > thunder happens but i wouldn't call it reliable (especially since it's possible to air-dodge all of thunder? Pretty sure I've seen this).
MK's just as/if not more likely to get an early up-b kill on pika.

Pikachu can kill MK earlier than he can kill pika, but I'd think Pikachu's kill moves are easier to read, punish and avoid.

 

[OverLade]

Seibs stop with that rubbish. ESAM just has you downloaded cuz you play all the time, that has nothing to do with the matchup ratio

 

[RaptorTEC]

Lol at Olimar and Wario being switched for Yoshi when there was no argument. Good job

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i don't get it halberd if we're both smart players how can he simply download me? doesnt that work both ways?


and no, if you get utilted/hit by last hit of dsmash you cannot airdodge the entire thunder because assuming your at any bit of high% you first have to uair to momentum cancel so you don't die off the top, then worry about thunder

it IS avoidable, just like mk's up b is avoidable, but it is 0 risk for pika to do that in the event it doesnt work, where as for mk to throw out up b like that, is a giant risk if read (airdodged) it gives pika positioning adv. and most likely a garunteed punish

jiggs cannot punish mk as consistantly as pika can since jiggs isn't fast enough to capitlize on as many predictions as pika can as hard as pika can

 

[Seagull Joe]

As long as isn't dying from thunder, he won't die till upper percents. Utilt can always be DI'd correctly. Dsmash is also simplistic to SDI.
I have a lot of exp vs . Luckay and I have played for years.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

ok, esam and I have played for years and there are still times that he does catch me with utilt bad DI, it happens and the possibility if that situation comming up is higher than one of pika being in range for an upbgimp, thats the only point i'm trying to make

 

[| Big D |]

Mk vs Pikachu happens like all the time in my region, it's predestined.

Pretty much what Grim said seems to play out, a MK on the ground wins the RPS game heavily.
Pikachu's kill moves are easy enough to avoid once you realize what they are and don't airdodge into fsmash, especially after a dthrow.